Part 63

Mr. PAINE. That is the only one that is here, that I remember having found. I don't remember finding another one.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember putting that mark on the map?

Mr. PAINE. I remember putting--I think I put this kind of mark on more than one map. That is our house. It then helps locate it with regard to all the arteries and what not that lead to various places.

Mr. LIEBELER. You do think then it is probable that you did place the mark on the map that indicates the location of your house in Irving, Tex.; is that correct?

Mr. PAINE. Yes, I think that is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether or not Oswald ever came into possession of this map?

Mr. PAINE. And Ruth gave Oswald a map to--she told me she gave him a map, and this is the kind we have around the house, the best one she could get in the service station, to help him find a job, or help him when he was searching for a job.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any other conversations with your wife about the map before the assassination?

Mr. PAINE. No, I don't believe she told me she had given him the map. I don't believe we discussed it at all.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you open the map to the portion that shows the area of Dallas. I call your attention to a mark at the intersection of Boll Street and San Jacinto, and ask you if you have any recollection of placing that mark on the map?

Mr. PAINE. No, I don't have any recollection of placing that mark on the map.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any circumstances that might make it likely that you placed that mark on the map?

Mr. PAINE. I could have placed that mark on the map when I was looking for properties. I went down to the courthouse to get plats of the areas that I was thinking of buying, and they had a copy of the plat, and so they sent it out late on Saturday, short of 12 o'clock, and just short of closing, and it was a reproduction company at that address or near that address.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is that the L. L. Ridgway Co.?

Mr. PAINE. Yes. That is the company that I am referring to. I don't know exactly.

Mr. LIEBELER. But it is near the intersection we have just referred to?

Mr. PAINE. I will take your word for that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know that it is?

Mr. PAINE. No, I don't know. I think the FBI man said it was. I hadn't looked into it and didn't check it.

Mr. LIEBELER. You haven't any knowledge at this point whether the Ridgway company is in this intersection or not?

Mr. PAINE. I remember it is right beside the expressway and in about that area. I don't remember the names of the roads.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think it is probable or improbable that you placed the mark on the map, the one we have just been talking about, at Boll and San Jacinto Streets?

Mr. PAINE. I remember in asking the clerk where it was, and I had a map of this sort, that was also in August when I was looking for places. I would have guessed I would not. I would have been able to see where it was and know in my mind where I wanted to go.

Mr. DULLES. Is that the same kind of a mark or a different kind of mark that is on the other side of the map to which we have just referred, the area map?

Mr. PAINE. It is a different mark. That mark that is on the other side of the map to which we have just referred, the area map, was our house. So I made a little square that I can see and indicate a house rather than--generally I don't make marks on maps. I look up where I want to go and I go.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did your wife tell you when she had given this map to Oswald?

Mr. PAINE. I suppose she gave it very soon after he came back and started looking for work.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you said it was August of 1963 when you were looking to find this reproduction place; is that correct?

Mr. PAINE. That is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. I call your attention to a mark on Hillcrest and Asbury, and I ask you if you put that mark on the map?

Mr. PAINE. I don't recall making that mark. I think it is different from the other mark, and it is--if I were to make a mark that is more the way I would make a mark. It also happens to be the cafeteria where I like to eat, where you can get all you want for a dollar there, and it is a very good meal. So I would be interested in that, in locating it. Here is one of the places where I was thinking of buying property.

Mr. DULLES. Is there a mark there at that place where you were interested in buying property?

Mr. PAINE. I don't think there is. I almost guessed that I didn't have that map at that time. Also I was not living--I would guess for a further reason that I would not have this map on the time of that August date was because I hadn't been living--I had been living in this apartment, and I had a map over there, and I probably didn't have the same map that Ruth had around her house.

Mr. LIEBELER. So you think it is probably likely you didn't place any marks on that map other than the one indicating your home?

Mr. PAINE. That is correct. In other words, I think that mark was placed there quite a long time back, because I have been interested in this locating of property for several years.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is the mark at the Hillcrest Avenue spot, a mark of the type that you usually make?

Mr. PAINE. And, as I say, I don't usually make a mark, but I think I might more likely have made that kind of mark, more than some of the others--somebody else has put marks here with a ball-point pen which are not the kind I would make.

Mr. LIEBELER. In reviewing this map with the FBI, were there any other marks on the map that it was developed that you possibly put on the map other than the ones we have discussed?

Mr. PAINE. I don't now remember any others. This one of the cafeteria there is not exactly at the right spot.

Mr. LIEBELER. The mark at Hillcrest Avenue?

Mr. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. LIEBELER. As you look at the map now do you see any other marks which you think you might have put on the map?

Mr. PAINE. No. We went over it at mealtime in considerable detail, he having located most of the marks he could find on the map--no, I guess it was still marked up like this. We didn't find anything that I can remember there that I might have put on there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, on the basis of your knowledge of Oswald and your meeting with him, and your familiarity with him prior to the time of the assassination, did you form an opinion about him as to whether or not he would be likely to commit an act such as this, or whether he would be likely to take the life of any human being?

Mr. PAINE. It was a question we had to consider when we considered having Marina at our house. So Ruth and I discussed that, whether he was a dangerous person, and he didn't seem to be dangerous. Of course, I also felt that I wasn't a particular opponent or foe of his. Helping his family we were quite free and would let him, roughly, think of our arguments. I talked about getting angry, but, for the most part, it was a cordial relationship, so I didn't sense--he didn't display hostility to me or to Ruth, and he was nice with the children, and while they were living with us, he was nice to Marina also. He was during this time when he returned from Mexico, he was quite a reasonable person. He was only unreasonable the first time I had met him.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did you have this discussion with your wife concerning whether or not you should let Marina live with you? Was that before they came back from New Orleans?

Mr. PAINE. Yes, it was.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you concluded at that time there was no reason why Marina should not come there; is that right?

Mr. PAINE. That is right. Of course, Ruth went in and sounded them out rather cautiously and reported to me also his facial expressions and what-not when she was suggesting this, and he seemed to be glad of that rather than worried.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, after Marina came and lived at your house, Oswald was there during parts of the months October and November. Did you change your opinion in this respect or was it reinforced, on the basis of his activities and your observation of him during that period?

Mr. PAINE. It was reinforced.

Mr. LIEBELER. You did not think him to be a violent person or one who would be likely to commit an act such as assassinating the President?

Mr. PAINE. I didn't--I saw he was a bitter person, he was bitter and quite a lot of very negative views of people in the world around him, very little charity in his view toward anybody, but I thought he was harmless.

Representative FORD. Was this a different reaction from the one you had had at your first meeting or your first acquaintance?

Mr. PAINE. When we first became acquainted I was somewhat shocked, especially that he would speak so harshly to his wife in front of a complete stranger, and it was at that point, or at that time, that I was persuaded I would like to free Marina from her bondage and servitude to this man. He seemed to me he was keeping her, not helping her to learn the language, keeping her vassal to him, and this offended me, so at that point I became interested in helping her escape from him. Of course, I was not going to try to force that. I didn't want to be separating a family that could get along.

Mr. LIEBELER. This bitterness that you detected following his return from Mexico, was that a new reaction?

Mr. PAINE. No. That bitterness had existed all along. He also had been disagreeable to his wife, cruel to her.

Mr. LIEBELER. I see.

Mr. PAINE. Not allowing her any personality, a mind of her own, and making sharp jibes at her.

Mr. DULLES. And that continued awhile?

Mr. PAINE. That only existed that first night in March or April.

Mr. DULLES. It did not continue when Marina was at your house in Irving?

Mr. PAINE. When Marina came to our house she gained in health and weight. She started to look better and it looked to me as if the strain was off the family relationship. They were not quarreling. They billed and cooed. She sat on his lap and he said sweet nothings in her ear.

Mr. DULLES. Did you get any information from any source with regard to the situation while they were living in New Orleans that she wanted to get away from him?

Mr. PAINE. Oh, yes; well, Ruth had told me when she came back from delivering Marina to New Orleans, she had gone down there expecting to spend a week, seeing New Orleans, and it was a pretty long trip, and found the household, she reported to me, so uncomfortable living there. They were fighting, I mean, so difficult. She wanted to leave right away, and she left in a few days, left a lot sooner than she had expected to leave.

Mr. DULLES. Then your wife took her back, as you recall?

Mr. PAINE. Then, my wife came home, and then she went back to Naushon, Mass., for a couple of months in the summer, and on her way back to Texas stopped in New Orleans, found him out of work, and invited Marina to come back with her right then.

Mr. DULLES. What did she learn at that time about Oswald? What did she learn about Lee Oswald's treatment of Marina, anything new or different at the time she stopped by New Orleans, and then went back?

Mr. PAINE. She, perhaps, saw he loved her because she said that the parting, he genuinely seemed so happy to have Ruth take her back. In other words, he seemed to be exhibiting some concern for Marina, who was with child, and the child would be adequately taken care of, and sorry--it was a cheerful parting or something. She saw human qualities in him at that time.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she say after Marina returned to your home in Irving, and after Oswald came back to Dallas that their relationship improved even more, and Oswald seemed to be under less strain than he had been prior to that time; is that correct?

Mr. PAINE. Well, I don't--I only know two times, at the time in April when they came to dinner with us, and he was rough, crude, uncivil to her, and Ruth's report of how they were while she was trying to live in this house in New Orleans, when she just moved in.

She also reported to me, and she will tell you this though that apparently Lee had wanted to make her happy in this house, had liked the house, said it was in the old famous quarter of New Orleans, and Ruth could see that Marina was unhappy. She thought it was uncomfortable in this darkness, and Ruth thought it was a tragedy. Both points of view were valid depending on which way you looked at it, so she saw that Lee apparently had wanted to make her happy, wanted her to like the house when she arrived in New Orleans, and had called her out there. She had also been eager to go out.

Apparently Ruth reported to me when he called from New Orleans, saying he had a job and "come live with me, come back with me," Marina had been very happy.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you specifically consider the question before you let Marina move into your home as to whether Oswald was a violent person?

Mr. PAINE. Yes, specifically. I talked it over with Frank. Frank raised the question also. So I talked it over with Ruth several times, and Frank brought up the question, and I thought of it myself.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you concluded on the basis of these discussions and your knowledge of Oswald, your collective knowledge of Oswald, at that time that he was not a violent person; is that correct?

Mr. PAINE. That he wasn't going to stab Ruth or Marina.

Mr. LIEBELER. That he wasn't going to exhibit any violence to any of you people?

Mr. PAINE. That is right. He wouldn't be a danger to Ruth. That was partly based, first, on the fact that we were not--we were careful to avoid putting him in a position that he felt offended.

Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't consider at the time that you were considering Oswald's possible violence toward you and your group whether he might exhibit violence to some other person?

Mr. PAINE. That is correct; yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You formed no judgment about that one way or the other?

Mr. PAINE. That is correct. We assumed or felt that--if we handled him with a gentle or considerate manner that he wouldn't be a danger to us.

Mr. DULLES. In the light of subsequent information and developments, and the information which is publicly available, have you reached any other conclusions as to or any conclusions as to whether or not Lee Oswald was the assassin of the President?

Mr. PAINE. When the police first asked me did I think he had done it, my dubiousness in my mind arose from not seeing how this could fit, how this could help his cause, and I didn't think he was irrational. It did not seem to me that he could shoot a man as he would shoot a tin can. Difficulty of a person shooting another person was not the reason for my doubting, and the circumstantial evidence seemed quite powerful to me.

Mr. LIEBELER. Seemed quite powerful?

Mr. PAINE. Yes. But then I realized with subsequent people calling from all over the country, somebody had said it is only a single-shot rifle, and I recognize one little fact like that could alter my thinking entirely. Somebody else said there was a shot through the windshield of the car. We went down to the place and looked around, and he thought that--he had a theory that the man had been shot from a manhole in the street, so I recognized that my views could change with evidence.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have a view on Oswald's guilt at this time?

Mr. PAINE. Most of these other things have proved to be false. It seems to be a clip-fed rifle. The man who thought it was shot from the place, I went down and saw the diagram drawn by Life seemed to be quite accurate so far as I could reconstruct the thing, and there was confusion about the number of bullets. I never did discover--it didn't quite make sense, but for the most part, I accept it, the common view that he did it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you on the morning of November 22, 1963?

Mr. PAINE. I was having, at the time of the assassination I was at work, of course, but at the time of the assassination I was in the cafeteria associated with the bowling alley having lunch.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who was with you?

Mr. PAINE. A student, a co-op student called Dave Noel happened to be with me. We happened to be talking about the character of assassins at that lunchtime, of all things.

Mr. LIEBELER. Prior to the time you heard of the assassination?

Mr. PAINE. That is right. When we first sat down at the meal we were discussing it, beside the point, except unless you believe in extrasensory perception, but we happened to just--we didn't have enough historical knowledge to explore it, but I just raised the question and tried to pursue it, and then dropped it, and then a waitress came and said the President had been shot, and I thought she was cracking a nasty joke, and went over to a cluster of people listening around a transistor set, and heard there was some commotion of this sort from the tone of the voice of the transistor set, and we went back to the lab where there is a good radio, and followed the news from there.

When it was mentioned, the Texas School Book Depository Building was mentioned, then I told Frank Krystinik that that was where Lee Oswald worked, and then in a few minutes he came back and said, he asked me, didn't I think I had better call the FBI and tell them.

So over a period of about 20 minutes, I trying to carry on work in a foolish way, or talking or discussing other things or something, we were discussing this problem, and I thought, I said to myself, or said to him, that the FBI already knew he worked there. Everybody would know he was a black sheep, and I didn't want to--a friend or one of the few friends in position of friendship to him, I didn't want to--join the mob barking at his heels or join in his harassment, so I declined. I didn't tell Frank that he couldn't call the FBI, but I said I wasn't going to do it, so I didn't.

I called Ruth immediately after getting back just to see that she would turn on the radio and be clued in with the news, but this was before the Texas School Book Depository Building was mentioned, to my knowledge, and she was already watching the news. So we communicated nothing at that time.

Mr. DULLES. Do you know whether your luncheon companion did or did not telephone the FBI?

Mr. PAINE. This is not the luncheon companion. This is Dave Noel. Frank Krystinik brings his lunch, and he eats his lunch at the lab.

Mr. DULLES. At the lab?

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Paine, would you give us the nature of the conversation you were having concerning assassination prior to the assassination. First let me ask you was anybody else present beside you and your companion at the time of the conversation?

Mr. PAINE. No, just he and I.

Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us the general essence of the conversation as best you can recall.

Mr. PAINE. There had been talk, of course, people, I don't get a newspaper, but I do listen to the radio. I know what my news source is, it is mostly magazines. So there was some anxiety about the President coming to Dallas-Fort Worth, and it appeared that this thought was in the minds of several others, I was not singular in this way. It had been expected, of course, that trouble would come from the right-wing, and I was wondering whether there was any danger, I suppose, that is somebody who could be drummed up by local feeling. The number of anti-Kennedy jokes cracked was quite large in Texas, and so I was wondering, you know, what kind of a person would kill a President, and I don't think Dave Noel knew anything about it, so it was just musing or conjecturing on my part. I certainly didn't think of Lee Oswald. I didn't expect it from that cause, from that end of the spectrum.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did you first think of Lee Oswald in connection with the assassination?

Mr. PAINE. As soon as I heard the Texas School Book Depository Building mentioned. Now, I did not know that--it never occurred to me, I didn't realize, there was a building there on his route. I had seen this warehouse building from the expressway, you can see the name written in large letters, but that is the way from any main thoroughfare. So I had supposed, I never put--except when it was mentioned that that was the building he shot from or was the building that the shot was fired from, then I realized I did know where he worked.

Mr. DULLES. You had not been at Irving that previous night?

Mr. PAINE. No, I had not.

Mr. LIEBELER. You knew Oswald worked at the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. PAINE. Yes, I did.

Mr. LIEBELER. As soon as you heard that that building was involved in the assassination, you thought of Oswald, did you not?

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did you think?

Mr. PAINE. Wondering whether Oswald would do it. And the argument against it, the only argument against it, was just I didn't think he was irrational, or it seemed to me to be irrational.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you asked yourself the question of whether or not Oswald would do it solely on the basis of your knowledge that he worked in that building, is that correct?

Mr. PAINE. Yes. Well, I didn't realize he worked in that building, but then I realized I didn't know--I knew he worked at that organization. I didn't realize there was a building on Elm Street there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to your wife after you heard that the Texas School Book Depository Building was involved in the shooting, and before you subsequently heard that Oswald had been arrested in connection with the assassination?

Mr. PAINE. I don't believe so. I think I called her only once to see that she was listening to the news, and then I assumed she would know all that I knew, and as soon as she heard that I supposed she would be wondering the same thing. It wasn't many minutes later though, it seemed to me, that the name Lee Oswald was mentioned--in the theater. The newsmen didn't connect it up at all, but that is all I needed to send me home.

Mr. LIEBELER. So then you left for your home in Irving?

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You left for home before there had been any public connection made between Oswald and the assassination, is that correct?

Mr. PAINE. Well, of course, the police were reporting they had suspects here and suspects there, were chasing suspects over here, and here was a man who had shot Officer Tippit. They didn't even mention him as a suspect, but there was another murder coincident in time.

Mr. LIEBELER. So the news broadcast connected Oswald with Officer Tippit?

Mr. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you then consider again whether or not Oswald had been involved in the assassination?

Mr. PAINE. Well, that was too much to have his name mentioned away from his place of work as having killed somebody; the stew was too thick to stay at work, and I was shaken too much, anyway.

Mr. LIEBELER. So your testimony is that you first thought of Oswald after you heard of the Texas School Book Depository Building being involved in the assassination, but you concluded at that time that Oswald was probably not involved in the assassination; is that correct?

Mr. PAINE. That is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is there any other reason other than the fact Oswald was at that building that made you think of him when you heard that building mentioned in connection with the assassination?

Mr. PAINE. Well, yes; Oswald, of course, stands--he is a black sheep in society; I mean he is, if you were to pick out the singular person among the employees there, he is the one, or he is probably the one. I don't happen to know the people who worked there. I gather from him there were about 30 people working there in a fairly large building.

Mr. LIEBELER. What was your state of mind when you heard that the Texas School Book Depository Building was involved in the shooting, did you deeply suspect Oswald had been involved, or was it just a passing thought? Tell us some more about that if you can, recreate your state of mind.