Part 62

Mr. PAINE. She thought he was, she observed how much one has to learn in order to drive a car. He had a difficulty in some manner, perhaps it was in judging when to turn the wheel when parking. And I think she said he over controlled it, turned too far.

Mr. LIEBELER. Looking back now on all your conversations with Oswald, after his return from New Orleans, did you have any discussions with him other than the ones you have already mentioned in your previous testimony?

Mr. DULLES. Could I ask a question before you answer this question. About the car, did you get any idea as to why he didn't want to drive a car or to have a car, did he think this would make him a capitalist or anything of that kind? Did anything come up in the conversations with regard to his not having a car or not driving a car?

Mr. PAINE. No. I gathered that was slightly embarrassing not to be able to drive a car.

Mr. DULLES. All right. Thank you.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you recall any conversations that you had with Oswald that you think would be helpful for us to know other than the ones you have already mentioned?

Mr. PAINE. I don't recall one now.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever indicate to you any specific hostility toward President Kennedy?

Mr. PAINE. I think at this ACLU meeting he mentioned this specifically that he thought Kennedy had done a good job in civil rights. That was it--generally my impression was that he liked--he didn't like anybody, but he disliked Kennedy least as you might go right from Kennedy.

Mr. LIEBELER. To the best of your recollection, was that the only time he mentioned President Kennedy specifically?

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever mention Governor Connally?

Mr. PAINE. Not to my knowledge.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever indicate any hostility toward the United States other than the hostility that you have previously testified to after his return from the Soviet Union and his general dislikes of the American system?

Mr. PAINE. That is right. Just his general dislike.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever indicate to you a desire to return to the Soviet Union?

Mr. PAINE. No; I think when I learned, I don't know when it was that he had planned to go back there that it was a surprise to me.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did you learn that he planned to go back there?

Mr. PAINE. That was probably subsequent; yes, that was certainly subsequent to November 22.

Mr. DULLES. Or to go to Cuba?

Mr. PAINE. Or to go to Cuba, yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. When that was spoken----

Mr. PAINE. I remember now, first it was mentioned could he be connected with a Communist plot and there I thought of Russian Communists and that didn't seem to ring a bell.

Mr. LIEBELER. When was that mentioned?

Mr. PAINE. This was after the assassination, a day or two later. Then when the Fair Play for Cuba Committee was mentioned, that was the first I had heard of it except for his mentioning Cuba to this man at the ACLU meeting referring to it in the car to me.

Mr. LIEBELER. He never told you that he had been active in the Fair Play for Cuba Committee?

Mr. PAINE. That is correct, that was the only recollection I could remember his ever having mentioned Cuba.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now yesterday, we asked you about an incident or spoke to you about an incident that happened in September of 1963 when you went into your garage to use some tools, your garage in Irving, Tex. Would you tell us about that?

Mr. PAINE. I don't remember whether the date was September. I remember that was the date they came back from New Orleans and I do remember that my wife asked me to unpack some of their heavy things from their car. I only recall unpacking duffelbags but any other package, that was the heaviest thing there and they were easy also.

Mr. LIEBELER. You must have moved the duffelbags from the station wagon into the garage?

Mr. PAINE. That is right. I unpacked whatever was remaining in the station wagon to the garage.

So sometime later, I do remember moving about this package which, let's say, was a rifle, anyway it was a package wrapped in a blanket. The garage was kind of crowded and I did have my tools in there and I had to move this package several times in order to make space to work, and the final time I put it on the floor underneath the saw where the handsaw would be casting dust on it and I was a little embarrassed to be putting his goods on the floor, but I didn't suppose, the first time I picked it up I thought it was camping equipment. I said to myself they don't make camping equipment of iron pipes any more.

Mr. LIEBELER. Why did you say that to yourself when you picked up the package?

Mr. PAINE. I had, my experience had been, my earliest camping equipment had been a tent of iron pipes. This somehow reminded me of that. I felt a pipe with my right hand and it was iron, that is to say it was not aluminum.

Mr. LIEBELER. How did you make that distinction?

Mr. PAINE. By the weight of it, and by the, I suppose the moment of inertia, you could have an aluminum tube with a total weight massed in the center somehow but that would not have had the inertia this way.

Mr. DULLES. You were just feeling this through the blanket though?

Mr. PAINE. I was also aware as I was moving his goods around, of his rights to privacy. So I did not feel--I had to move this object, I wasn't thinking very much about it but it happens that I did think a little bit about it or before I get on to the working with my tools I thought, an image came to mind.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think there was more than one tent pole in the package or just one tent pole?

Mr. PAINE. As I say, I moved it several times, and I think I thought progressively each time. I moved it twice. It had three occasions. And the first one was an iron, thought of an iron pipe and then I have drawn, I drew yesterday, a picture of the thing I had in mind. Then in order to fill out the package I had to add another object to it and there I added again I was thinking of camping equipment, and I added a folding shovel such as I had seen in the Army, a little spade where the blade folds back over the handle. This has the trouble that this blade was too symmetrical I disposed to the handle and to fit the package the blade had to be off center, eccentric to the handle. Also, I had my vision of the pipe. It had an iron pipe about 30 inches long with a short section of pipe going off 45 degrees. No words here, it just happened that I did have this image in my mind of trying to fill up that package in the back burner of my mind.

Mr. LIEBELER. The witness yesterday did draw a picture of what he visualized as being in the blanket, and I will offer it in evidence later on in the hearing.

How long was this package in your estimation?

Mr. PAINE. Well, yesterday we measured the distance that I indicated with my hand, I think it came to 37 inches.

Mr. LIEBELER. Approximately how thick would you say it was?

Mr. PAINE. I picked it up each time and I put it in a position and then I would recover it from that position, so each time I moved it with the same position with my hands in the same position. My right hand, the thumb and forefinger could go around the pipe, and my left hand grabbed something which was an inch and a half inside the blanket or something thick.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did it occur to you at that time that there was a rifle in the package?

Mr. PAINE. That did not occur to me.

Mr. LIEBELER. You never at any time looked inside the package?

Mr. PAINE. That is correct. I could easily have felt the package but I was aware that of respecting his privacy of his possessions.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you subsequently advised of the probability or the possibility that there had been a rifle wrapped in that package?

Mr. PAINE. When I arrived on Friday afternoon we went into the garage, I think Ruth, Marina and the policeman, and I am not sure it was the first time, but there we saw this blanket was on the floor below the bandsaw----

(At this point Representative Ford entered the hearing room.)

Mr. PAINE. And a rifle was mentioned and then it rang a bell, the rifle answered, fitted the package that I had been trying to fit these unsuccessfully. It had never resolved itself, this shovel and pipe didn't fit in there.

Mr. LIEBELER. And it seemed to you likely that there had in fact been a rifle in the package?

Mr. PAINE. That answered it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us when the last time was that you saw that package in the garage prior to the assassination?

Mr. PAINE. No; I am afraid I can't.

Mr. DULLES. Do we have the date of the first time in the record?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; I think the witness testified it was either late September or early October of 1963.

I show you a blanket which has been marked as Commission Exhibit 140 and ask you if that is the blanket you saw in the garage?

Mr. PAINE. This looks a little cleaner, of course. I was there in the night, and I also put the thing on the floor thinking it was rustic equipment and that sawdust wouldn't hurt it.

I also was concerned with moisture. This is very close to what I remember. Yesterday in my testimony I had a desire to add blue to the colors of brown and green. Last night I remembered that Thanksgiving weekend I had bought another rustic blanket of a similar nature which had blue in it, which is why I tried to get blue into the blanket.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you able to say at this time positively that this was the blanket that you saw in your garage and that you moved on various occasions in October and possibly November of 1963?

Mr. PAINE. I didn't notice the particular design so I can't--it is a very good representative of what I remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the texture of the blanket?

Mr. PAINE. The texture. I felt it, of course, these several times and the texture is the same.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was the package wrapped securely when it was in your garage?

Mr. PAINE. I had the impression--yes, it was. The whole package was stiff. There was no shaking of the parts, and I had the impression it was wrapped with about two strings.

Mr. LIEBELER. I now show you Commission Exhibit 139, which is a rifle that was found in the Texas School Book Depository Building, and ask you if you at any time ever saw this rifle prior to November 22, 1963?

Mr. PAINE. I did not.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you seen it since that time and prior to yesterday?

Mr. PAINE. I saw a rifle being shown to Marina in an adjoining cubicle with a glass wall between us.

Mr. LIEBELER. When was that?

Mr. PAINE. That was the night of the 22d.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever seen this leather strap that is attached to the rifle.

Mr. PAINE. I have not seen that strap.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever seen a strap like this strap?

Mr. PAINE. Or anything like it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you any idea where this strap could have come from?

Mr. PAINE. I don't.

Mr. DULLES. May I ask in that connection, was this just loosely wound up in that blanket or was there some string around it or----

Mr. PAINE. I had the impression there were about two strings on the thing. It wouldn't--also, I didn't think you could look into the package readily.

Mr. DULLES. You would have to take something off, some string or something in order to get into the package?

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. I now show you Commission Exhibit 364 which is a replica of a sack which was prepared by authorities in Dallas, and I also show you another sack which is Commission Exhibit 142, and ask you if you have ever seen in or around your garage in Irving, Tex., any sacks similar to those?

Mr. PAINE. No; I haven't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you seen any paper in your garage in Irving prior to November 22, 1963, or at any other place, at your home in Irving, Tex., that is similar to the paper of which those sacks are made?

Mr. PAINE. No, I haven't; we have some rugs, most of them are wrapped in polyethylene. I couldn't be sure that one of the smaller ones wasn't wrapped in paper. To my knowledge, we had no free kraft paper of that size.

Mr. LIEBELER. Will you examine the tape on the sacks and tell me whether you have any tape similar to that or whether you have seen any tape similar to that in your garage before November 22, 1963?

Mr. PAINE. We have some tape in a drawer of my desk at the house, my recollection is that the tape is a 2-inch tape, gum tape.

Mr. LIEBELER. And the tape on the sack appears to be three?

Mr. PAINE. This is 3-inch.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever observe in your garage any scraps of paper or scraps of tape similar to the materials used to construct those sacks?

Mr. PAINE. No, I did not.

Mr. LIEBELER. Either before November 22, 1963, or afterwards?

Mr. PAINE. That is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. When you moved the sacks, the blanket, the package that was wrapped in the blanket in your garage, were you able to determine whether or not the object inside the sack was also wrapped in paper?

Mr. PAINE. I would have said that it was not. When we practiced wrapping that rifle yesterday I would have guessed that any paper around the barrel in there, which I could feel with some clarity, would have crinkled.

Mr. LIEBELER. And to your recollection there was no crinkling in the package wrapped with the blanket?

Mr. PAINE. Yes. It was a very quiet package.

Mr. LIEBELER. Yesterday we did try to and did wrap the rifle previously referred to in our testimony in the blanket which you have just examined. Would you tell the Commission about that?

Mr. PAINE. I tried wrapping it to the shape and size and bulk that I remembered the package. I had a little difficulty, it got quite close to the right shape by wrapping it at an angle. The rifle was laid in the blanket somewhat on a bias to the rectangle blanket form. Then there was a small end of the barrel, I didn't discover how you could fold that over to tie it with string without making it bulkier than I remember. But the package came quite close to what I remembered.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now on the basis of wrapping that rifle in the blanket, would you say that it was probable, that the package that was in your garage was in fact that rifle wrapped in that blanket?

Mr. PAINE. Yes, I think it was or a rifle of that size.

Mr. LIEBELER. You said just a moment ago that you saw the rifle we have had here this morning or a similar rifle shown to Marina Oswald sometime shortly after the assassination. Would you tell us the circumstances surrounding that event?

Mr. PAINE. We went to the police station that evening, and probably about 9 o'clock, I saw the rifle being shown to Marina.

Mr. LIEBELER. This was at the Dallas police station?

Mr. PAINE. Dallas police station. Ruth was present, and Mamantov was present.

Representative FORD. Who was the last one?

Mr. PAINE. Ilya Mamantov, I think Ilya is the first name, but Mr. Mamantov. He teaches parttime, parttime teaching in Russian, was familiar to Ruth as the son-in-law of her tutor.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear any of the conversation that was going on in the room in which Marina was being shown this rifle?

Mr. PAINE. No, no.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether or not your wife heard them?

Mr. PAINE. My wife, of course, was right there. And heard the whole thing.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she subsequently tell you what occurred?

Mr. PAINE. Yes, she did.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did she tell you?

Mr. PAINE. She told me that Marina wasn't able to identify that rifle as the one that Lee had. She knew that Lee had a rifle, and I think she knew it was wrapped in a package like this. I think Ruth reported that she had, Marina had, opened up a corner of the blanket and looked in and seen part of the butt, and hadn't liked the idea of rifles, the rifles made her a little uncomfortable and hadn't looked at it further.

Mr. LIEBELER. This was at the time the rifle was presumably wrapped in the blanket in your garage, correct?

Mr. PAINE. I assumed that. I didn't ask that question.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did your wife tell you anything more about what happened at that time?

Mr. PAINE. You will have to jog my memory if you have any specific questions. I don't recall.

Mr. LIEBELER. That is the best of your recollection now that you have given us?

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. How much would you say that the package that you saw in your garage weighed?

Mr. PAINE. I reported earlier to the FBI 7 or 8 pounds. I never at the time thought of the weight of it as I was moving it around.

Mr. LIEBELER. In your previous discussions or conversations with the FBI did you ever tell them in word or substance that if there had been a rifle in the package that was located in your garage that you did not think it could have a telescopic sight mounted on it?

Mr. PAINE. I don't recall having said that. I don't believe I would have known that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall any discussions of that sort with the FBI at all. Did they ask you about that?

Mr. PAINE. Yes, I think they asked me coming out to find out when and where and how the sight may have been put on but I never felt the package in the center. I always grabbed it at these two ends.

Mr. LIEBELER. To the best of your recollection you never told the FBI that you didn't think the package contained a rifle with a telescopic sight?

Mr. PAINE. That is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever observe or hear prior to the assassination that Lee Oswald had been practicing with a rifle?

Mr. PAINE. No, I didn't know prior to the assassination, we didn't know he had a rifle. I had supposed from my conversation with him back on Neely Street that he would like to have a rifle but I didn't gather that he did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Aside from whether or not you knew that he had a rifle, did you ever hear or observe him practicing with a rifle?

Mr. PAINE. No, I did not.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you familiar with the Sport's Drome Rifle Range in Grand Prairie, Tex?

Mr. PAINE. I think I know about where it is. No, I don't even know where it is. I know the race track is there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever been there?

Mr. PAINE. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know that Oswald received mail at your house from Irving, Tex?

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know what kind of mail he received?

Mr. PAINE. I suppose he used it as the mailing address for most of his mail until he would receive, get a permanent address, so he received the Daily Worker there, or The Worker, and also, I didn't see it come, I don't generally see the mail that arrives there. Most of my mail would arrive at that address even though I was living somewhere else because I also didn't feel permanent in my other addresses, so Ruth would collect the mail and separated mine into a separate pile. I didn't see the Militant arrive. I did see various Russian magazines, Agitateur, maybe a very large one. A very large one and the Daily Worker, The Worker.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss these publications with Oswald?

Mr. PAINE. Yes, we talked with regard to the Daily Worker. He said that, he told me, that you could tell what they wanted you to do, they, a word I dislike, what they wanted you to do by reading between the lines, reading the thing and doing a little reading between the lines. He then gave me an issue to look and see. I wanted to see if I could read between the lines and see what they wanted you to do.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you read the particular issue that he referred to?

Mr. PAINE. I tried to. I don't think I had very much patience to go through it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what particular issue it was?

Mr. PAINE. No, I didn't notice.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you set the date of this discussion that you had with Oswald?

Mr. PAINE. That was fairly soon after his coming back. So let's say the middle of October.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he discuss with you, your ability or inability to determine what they wanted you to do by reading between the lines after you had read the publication?

Mr. PAINE. No, I just handed it back to him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was there anything else said between you at that time on that subject?

Mr. PAINE. He asked me how did I like it.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did you say?

Mr. PAINE. And I tried to be polite. I said it was awful extreme, I thought.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he respond to that?

Mr. PAINE. I think that was the end of it.

Mr. DULLES. Do I understand that this was, this Daily Worker was, mailed----

Mr. PAINE. To 515.

Mr. DULLES. To your address in Irving?

Mr. PAINE. That is right. Or Ruth's address.

Mr. DULLES. It wasn't readdressed but it was directly sent?

Mr. PAINE. That is correct.

Mr. DULLES. He gave your address for The Worker to come to?

Mr. PAINE. That is right.

Representative FORD. What prompted him to hand you The Worker? Was there any preface to the actual handing of it to you?

Mr. PAINE. Yes. I think I was asking him, I would like to, I wanted to see some literature or what he liked to read or something like that. I think it was as a response to some question or inquiry of mine.

Mr. DULLES. Do you know whether this was addressed to him in care of you or Ruth Paine or was it just sent at the Paine address?

Mr. PAINE. I don't remember for certain. I would think it would have just been Oswald at that address but I don't remember. It may have been. There were enough of those packages but I just don't remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you draw any inference at the time as a result of this conversation with Oswald about his statement that you could tell what they wanted you to do by reading between the lines?

Mr. PAINE. Well, it made me realize that he would like to be active in some kind of--activist. It made me also feel that he wasn't very well connected with a group or he wouldn't have such a tenuous way of communication, and I thought it was rather childish to someone like Dick Tracy, attract a child to Dick Tracy, to think that that was his bona fide way of being communicated or being a member of this Communist cause or something.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have any other discussions with him about literature that he received?

Mr. PAINE. I didn't know. Other literature, I was somewhat interested in what the Russian publications were saying but I didn't take it up with him. I wanted Ruth to translate those.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever observe any Cuban literature?

Mr. PAINE. No, I didn't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever know that he ever received any such literature?

Mr. PAINE. No, I never, until after the assassination, I had never thought of Cuba either in connection with Oswald or in connection with the Communists or the Communist Party.

Mr. LIEBELER. I show you Commission Exhibit 128 which is ENCO Map of the Dallas-Fort Worth area, and ask you if you recognize that map.

Mr. PAINE. This is the kind of map that I always used, stopping in stations when I am out of one so I always have one in my car, and when the FBI showed me this particular map, which I trust is the same one I looked at before. I found on the back side a mark where it shows the whole map of the whole area, the Dallas-Fort Worth area, a little mark where our house is, that is the kind of mark that I would make when I was trying to buy some land earlier and had in mind for a long time and I wanted to find the location that was accessible to the places I would then want to go.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us----

Mr. PAINE. This mark is still here.

Representative FORD. This is the mark or can you identify that mark that you placed on this map?

Mr. PAINE. Yes, I think I see a mark here of the sort which looks reasonable to me. I think it is the only mark on this side of the map.

Generally, I didn't make marks on the other side of the map.

Mr. LIEBELER. In your statement referring to one side of the map you were referring to the side that shows a map of the entire Fort Worth-Dallas area, is that correct?

Mr. PAINE. That is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you say as best you can see there is only one mark on this side of the map?