Part 51

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what he came to your office for? Did he indicate any particular reason for coming there?

Mr. GREGORY. I don't recall. I don't know why he came back. Frankly, I don't remember. Here is something else that--one of the newspaper reporters came to the office and asked me if I would deliver a letter to Oswald, a reporter who tried several times to contact Oswald and get the story of his life or something like that, and they simply refused to see him. Why he choose me, I don't know. How he learned that Oswald came to my office, I don't know. But this man came and asked me to deliver this letter to Oswald the next time he came to the office, and I remember now that he did come once or twice more because I handed him that letter, and Oswald took it and put it in his pocket.

Representative FORD. When were these visits, the second and third visits to your office?

Mr. GREGORY. I would say that was probably during the month of July 1962.

Representative FORD. 1962.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever ask you to help him work on a book?

Mr. GREGORY. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. That he was working on?

Mr. GREGORY. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Other than these contacts we have discussed, did you have any other contacts with Oswald ever?

Mr. GREGORY. Well, I was at home when my son Paul answered a telephone call from Lee Oswald and he asked if Paul would come to get them, I guess they were at his brother's, they were going to Dallas, they moved to Dallas by then, so it must have been in October or maybe it was----

Mr. LIEBELER. Was it Thanksgiving?

Mr. GREGORY. It could have been Thanksgiving. It was Thanksgiving. It was Thanksgiving Day. Paul went to Oswald, Robert Oswald, and brought Marina and Lee Oswald and the baby to the house. He fixed some sandwiches for them and he took them to the bus station and they went to Dallas where they had already established residence. That was the last time I saw Lee Oswald and Marina Oswald until after the assassination of the President.

Mr. LIEBELER. On the basis of your contacts with Lee Oswald during this period of time, did you form any judgment of him?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes, sir; I think I did. He impressed me as a man that, first, he carried some sort of a chip on his shoulder. I also had the impression that, probably unfounded on my part, I don't know, I just formed that impression, that he, Lee Oswald, felt that he did not get proper recognition from the people, say, in the United States, maybe even in the Soviet Union. I don't know. In other words, I felt like he thought that he was a better man than the other people thought he was.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have the feeling that he desired to achieve recognition?

Mr. GREGORY. That is my distinct impression of him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any opinion as to whether he was ever able to command this recognition and respect that he was seeking?

Mr. GREGORY. I don't think so.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think he was an intelligent person?

Mr. GREGORY. Fairly.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think he was capable of performing an act such as an assassination of a President?

Mr. GREGORY. Definitely.

Mr. LIEBELER. What do you base that opinion on?

Mr. GREGORY. Well, he was a Marine; he, as I said, he carried a chip on his shoulder. From the best--from what I have read and so forth, I personally am of the opinion that he assassinated the President.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well now, based on your knowledge of him prior to the assassination did you have any reason to believe that he might do such a thing?

Mr. GREGORY. Prior to that time, no, sir. I didn't.

Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't regard him as a dangerous individual or something of that sort, did you?

Mr. GREGORY. Well, I thought he was--I did not think he was an unbalanced person or crazy person or anything like that. I would say he was sort of, I would say I thought he was sort of a peculiar person but I never thought he would do an act like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever make the acquaintance of the mother?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us about that?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes. As I mentioned earlier, I teach Russian once a week at the library. We started a new series of lessons on November 12, 1963, and in my class there was a lady by the name of Marguerite Oswald. Frankly, I never connected her with Lee Oswald. Oswald was just a name to me, and I did not learn about it until the day of the assassination. Or the next day, the next day, that she was his mother.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mrs. Oswald call you on the telephone at any time after the assassination?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes. She called me----

Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us about it?

Mr. GREGORY. Sunday morning, November 24, about 7 o'clock in the morning, from Dallas.

Representative FORD. This is the mother called?

Mr. GREGORY. The mother. Sunday morning about 7 o'clock in the morning, and she said, I still remember, she said, "Mr. Gregory, I need your help. The reporters, the news media were badgering me." I think that is the word she used. She said, "I wonder if some of your friends or you could provide a place for me to hide from them." And it sounded like she was crying on the telephone, although I think that woman is not taken to crying.

So I told her--she did not want to identify herself when she called me first. I asked her, I said, "Who are you?" And she said, "I would rather not tell you who I am but I shall identify myself by saying I am one of the students in the Russian class in the library." Of course, I knew it was Mrs. Oswald. In fact, I guessed who she was before she even tried to identify herself. So I told her, I said, "Now, I will tell you what I will do, Mrs. Oswald, you stay where you are and I will promise to you that I will come to see you sometime today." Of course, I knew where she was because the Secret Service told me where they had her before.

Mr. LIEBELER. The Secret Service contacted you the day before?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. On Saturday?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Isn't it a fact they had asked you to come and translate an interview with Marina Oswald?

Mr. GREGORY. That is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you didn't do it because you didn't need to do it that day?

Mr. GREGORY. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see Lee Oswald that day?

Mr. GREGORY. No, I did not see him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you later on Sunday go to see Mrs. Marguerite Oswald?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes. As soon as I hung up the phone, I was talking to Marguerite Oswald, I called the U.S. Secret Service and reported this call, of course, and an agent, I called Agent Howard, who lives just north of Fort Worth, and he said, "Well, that is fine, we will find a hiding place for her, for Marguerite and Marina Oswald and the babies," and he suggested he come by my house in a matter of 45 minutes or an hour and we will go to Dallas and then proceed from there. And that is what we did then. We went to Dallas.

Mr. LIEBELER. You went to the Executive Inn where Marina and Mrs. Oswald were staying at that time, is that right?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes, sir; we went to the Executive Inn, and on the way we stopped en route on the turnpike, where the agents arranged a rendezvous with Robert Oswald and other agents, and we went to the Executive Inn in Dallas by the airport, and Robert and I went in and we told the women to pack up, that we were going to take them to, Robert told them we were going to take them to, the farm of his wife's parents, north of Fort Worth.

Mr. LIEBELER. But Mrs. Oswald objected to that?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes, she objected, she said she didn't want to go there. But I told her that she bothered me to come, to call me at the house to provide a place for her and here I am, and if she doesn't like it then I am just through with her.

Mr. LIEBELER. You told her that?

Mr. GREGORY. So she packed up and we got with the agents in two or three cars, two cars, and we started toward that farm of Robert Oswald's parents. But en route we detoured because Marguerite Oswald mentioned the fact that the two little babies were all wet, and that there were no diaper change for them, that Marina and she had no change of dresses, and so forth, and she insisted that we go by Irving where Marina lived with Ruth Paine.

Mr. LIEBELER. Then you went and obtained some materials for the babies there?

Mr. GREGORY. Well, we didn't go to the house because we got the report that Lee Oswald was shot. You see, that all happened Sunday morning, it was 11 o'clock in the morning, we were driving from Dallas to Irving and we got this report that Lee was shot, and the police advised us not to go to the house because there was a mob, so we went to the Chief of Police of Irving, to his residence. Marina telephoned Ruth Paine from there to gather these things for the babies and a change of dress for her and some money and so forth.

Mr. LIEBELER. You went from there, then, to Parkland Hospital where some events occurred and then you came back to the Inn of the Six Flags?

Mr. GREGORY. That is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. I want to ask you about something that might have happened or happened at the Inn of the Six Flags.

There has been a newspaper report, and Mrs. Marguerite Oswald has said that on Saturday night an FBI agent came to the Executive Inn and showed her a picture of a man who she claims to be Jack Ruby. Have you seen newspaper reports to that effect?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes, I have seen reports to that effect.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, Mrs. Oswald says, also, that while at the Inn of the Six Flags she observed a newspaper that had Jack Ruby's picture in it and exclaimed in the presence of other people that that was the same picture as the FBI had showed her, that is what she says. Did you ever hear her say anything like that?

Mr. GREGORY. No, sir; not to my recollection.

Mr. LIEBELER. She never did anything like that in your presence?

Mr. GREGORY. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. After you met Mrs. Oswald, Marguerite Oswald, and had a chance to observe her, did that further your judgment of Lee Harvey Oswald in any way?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes, sir. I felt that a lot of his, many of his, peculiarities, possibly were brought on by the influence of his mother.

To me, she impressed me as being not necessarily rational. She is quite clever, but she certainly is most peculiar. She demands public attention, she wants to be the center of attention. As, for example, standing there in the middle of the room at the motel of that Six Flags, standing in the middle of the room saying "I want to make a statement," and she made those statements throughout the frequent intervals and always she would precede the statement by saying, "I want to make a statement. I feel that my son can't be buried anywhere but at the Arlington National Cemetery."

Mr. LIEBELER. And you detected similarities between Mrs. Oswald and Lee?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes; I felt they both craved public recognition or to be craving attention or publicity or whatever you wish to call it.

Mr. LIEBELER. In our conversation last evening about your testimony, I asked you about Mrs. Ruth Paine, and you told me that Mrs. Ruth Paine had come to visit you at a time subsequent to the assassination.

Mr. GREGORY. No, sir; she never did. Ruth Paine?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mr. GREGORY. No. She called me on the phone once.

Mr. LIEBELER. Called on the telephone?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes. But I have never met her.

Mr. LIEBELER. What was the conversation between you and her?

Mr. GREGORY. She asked me if I would tutor her in writing letters in Russian. If I remember, she mentioned that she either was going to write to the Soviet Embassy or Soviet Union, something like that, but I told her I was just too busy, I have no time for that. In fact, I didn't want to have anything to do with that sort of--I didn't want to write letters to the Soviet Union or to the Embassy or anybody else.

Representative FORD. How long have you taught Russian, Mr. Gregory?

Mr. GREGORY. In the library?

Representative FORD. Yes.

Mr. GREGORY. For approximately 3 or 4 years from 10 to 20 weeks a year.

Representative FORD. Have you taught Russian in any other area or capacity?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes, sir; I taught Russian a couple of years ago, not more than 2 years ago, at Carswell Air Force Base at Fort Worth, where I had a class of officers and men in the Russian language. With the result that two out of my class passed the Russian examination, and the rest flunked.

Representative FORD. How long would you estimate it would normally take for a person of average intelligence to learn to speak and write Russian as fluently as Oswald did?

Mr. GREGORY. If he lived in this country or in that country? That would make a lot of difference.

Representative FORD. Well, let's take this country first.

Mr. GREGORY. This country. That would depend again on the effort put out by the particular individual. If he were in earnest I would think he could do it in about 4 years.

Representative FORD. That is an ordinary person living in the United States?

Mr. GREGORY. Living in the United States.

Representative FORD. Who made----

Mr. GREGORY. Going to study Russian, say at the university, normal load, maybe 4 hours a week, plus homework, it would take about 4 years.

If he lived in the country----

Representative FORD. In the Soviet Union?

Mr. GREGORY. In the Soviet Union, he probably could do it in 2 or 3 years.

Representative FORD. Did Oswald tell you when he first visited you that he had learned to speak Russian, where?

Mr. GREGORY. In the Soviet Union.

Representative FORD. He never gave you any indication he had learned or studied prior to going to the Soviet Union?

Mr. GREGORY. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. I have about one or two more questions.

Did you discuss at any time with Marina Oswald the conversation that she had with Lee Oswald after the assassination?

Mr. GREGORY. Would you mind to state that again?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Marina Oswald spoke with Lee after the assassination, when he was in the jail.

Mr. GREGORY. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you about that?

Mr. GREGORY. Well, I don't remember whether it was Marina or whether it was Marguerite Oswald. I don't remember now; they did go to see him in the jail in the city of Dallas, and it must have been Marguerite because she was bragging what a wonderful son he is because he looked at the little girl, June, she is 2 years old, and he said, "You have got to buy her a new pair of shoes," I remember that. It must have been Marguerite because she used that as an illustration of what a wonderful boy he was.

Mr. LIEBELER. Other than that, you have no information as to what transpired at that time, happened at that time?

Mr. GREGORY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would it be fair to say, Mr. Gregory, that it was through Oswald's contact with you that he subsequently made the association with and contact with the other members of the Russian community in Dallas and Fort Worth?

Mr. GREGORY. I think that would be a fair statement, yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. I have no more questions.

The CHAIRMAN. Congressman?

Representative FORD. I have one more, Mr. Gregory.

I believe Marina has testified when she first met Lee Harvey Oswald it was approximately 17 months after he had arrived in the Soviet Union. She testified, also, that she could not tell whether he was a native born resident of the Soviet Union or a foreigner by the way he spoke.

Mr. GREGORY. Yes.

Representative FORD. Is that unusual?

Mr. GREGORY. Well, frankly. I don't know. You see, Congressman, the city of Minsk is what we call, they call it, not we call, they call it in the White Russia Republic. You know they called this the Union of Republics, you know, in the White Russian Republic, and Minsk, I guess, is the capital of it.

It is fairly close to Poland, and there are all sorts of people, Poles, Lithuanians, probably Latvians, that lived in that part of the country, and none of those people speak pure Russian.

Now, whether she had reference, whether that had anything to do with her statement----

Representative FORD. Her observations?

Mr. GREGORY. Right; I don't know.

Now, I thought that Lee Oswald spoke with a Polish accent, that is why I asked him if he was of Polish descent.

Representative FORD. But leaving----

Mr. GREGORY. But, otherwise, I would say it would be rather unusual, rather unusual for a person who lived in the Soviet Union for 17 months that he would speak so well that a native Russian would not be sure whether he was born in that country or not.

Representative FORD. That would be a very unusual kind of a person?

Mr. GREGORY. It would be, yes.

Representative FORD. Or a person who had unusual training?

Mr. GREGORY. Right, or unusual ability or training, yes, that is right.

Representative FORD. That is all, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much, Mr. Gregory. You have been very helpful.

(Whereupon, at 1 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)

_Monday, March 16, 1964_

TESTIMONY OF COMDR. JAMES J. HUMES, COMDR. J. THORNTON BOSWELL, AND LT. COL. PIERRE A. FINCK

The President's Commission met at 2 p.m. on March 16, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.

Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Sherman Cooper, Representative Gerald R. Ford, John J. McCloy, and Allen W. Dulles, members.

Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Francis W. H. Adams, assistant counsel; Norman Redlich, assistant counsel; Arlen Specter, assistant counsel; and Charles Murray, observer.

TESTIMONY OF COMDR. JAMES J. HUMES

The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order.

Commander Humes, will you please step up. You know, Commander, what we have met for today to take your testimony concerning the autopsy and anything else you might know concerning the assassination of the President.

Would you raise your right hand, please?

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Commander HUMES. I do.

The CHAIRMAN. Will you be seated?

You may proceed.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Humes, will you state your full name for the record, please?

Commander HUMES. James Joseph Humes.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is your profession or occupation, please?

Commander HUMES. I am a physician and employed by the Medical Department of the United States Navy.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your rank in the Navy?

Commander HUMES. Commander, Medical Corps. United States Navy.

Mr. SPECTER. Where did you receive your education, Commander Humes, please.

Commander HUMES. I had my undergraduate training at St. Joseph's College at Villanova University in Philadelphia. I received my medical degree in 1948 from the Jefferson Medical College of Philadelphia.

I received my internship and my postgraduate training in my special field of interest in Pathology in various Naval hospitals, and at the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology at Walter Reed in Washington, D.C.

Mr. SPECTER. What do your current duties involve?

Commander HUMES. My current title is Director of Laboratories of the Naval Medical School at Naval Medical Center at Bethesda. I am charged with the responsibility of the overall supervision of all of the laboratory operations in the Naval medical center, two broad areas, one in the field of anatomic pathology which comprises examining surgical specimens and postmortem examinations and then the rather large field of clinical pathology which takes in examination of the blood and various body fluids.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you been certified by the American Board of Pathology?

Commander HUMES. Yes, sir; both in anatomic pathology and in clinical pathology in 1955.

Mr. SPECTER. What specific experience have you had, if any, with respect to gunshot wounds?

Commander HUMES. My type of practice, which fortunately has been in peacetime endeavor to a great extent, has been more extensive in the field of natural disease than violence. However, on several occasions in various places where I have been employed, I have had to deal with violent death, accidents, suicides, and so forth. Also I have had training at the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology, I have completed a course in forensic pathology there as part of my training in the overall field of pathology.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to participate in the autopsy of the late John F. Kennedy on November 22, 1963?

Commander HUMES. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. SPECTER. What was your specific function in connection with that autopsy?

Commander HUMES. As the senior pathologist assigned to the Naval Medical Center, I was called to the Center by my superiors and informed that the President's body would be brought to our laboratories for an examination, and I was charged with the responsibility of conducting and supervising this examination; told to also call upon anyone whom I wished as an assistant in this matter, that I deemed necessary to be present.

Mr. SPECTER. Who did assist you, if anyone, in the course of the autopsy?

Commander HUMES. My first assistant was Commander J. Thornton Boswell, whose position is Chief of Pathology at the Naval Medical School, and my other assistant was Lt. Col. Pierre Finck, who is in the wound ballistics section of the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology.

When I ascertained the nature of the President's wounds, having had the facilities of the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology offered to me by General Blumberg, the commanding officer of that institution, I felt it advisable and would be of help to me to have the services of an expert in the field of wound ballistics and for that reason I requested Colonel Finck to appear.

Mr. SPECTER. Tell us who else in a general way was present at the time the autopsy was conducted in addition to you three doctors, please?

Commander HUMES. This, I must preface by saying it will be somewhat incomplete. My particular interest was on the examination of the President and not of the security measures of the other people who were present.

However, the Surgeon General of the Navy was present at one time or another. Admiral Galloway, the Commanding Officer of the National Naval Medical Center; my own commanding officer, Captain John H. Stover of the Naval Medical School, Dr. John Ebersole, one of the radiologists assigned to the Naval Hospital, Bethesda, who assisted with X-ray examinations which were made. These are the chief names, sir; that I can recall.

Mr. SPECTER. What time did the autopsy start approximately?

Commander HUMES. The president's body was received at 25 minutes before 8, and the autopsy began at approximately 8 p.m. on that evening. You must include the fact that certain X-rays and other examinations were made before the actual beginning of the routine type autopsy examination.

Mr. SPECTER. Precisely what X-rays or photographs were taken before the dissection started?

Commander HUMES. Some of these X-rays were taken before and some during the examination, which also maintains for the photographs, which were made as the need became apparent to make such.

However, before the postmortem examination was begun, anterior, posterior and lateral X-rays of the head, and of the torso were made, and identification type photographs, I recall having been made of the full face of the late President. A photograph showing the massive head wound with the large defect that was associated with it. To my recollection all of these were made before the proceedings began.

Several others, approximately 15 to 20 in number, were made in total before we finished the proceedings.

Mr. SPECTER. Now were those X-rays or photographs or both when you referred to the total number?

Commander HUMES. By the number I would say they are in number 15 to 20. There probably was ten or 12 X-ray films exposed in addition.

Mr. SPECTER. What time did this autopsy end?

Commander HUMES. At approximately 11 p.m.

Mr. SPECTER. What wounds did you observe on the late President, if any?