Part 50

Representative FORD. Did you have any conversation with her at that time?

Mr. FORD. No. She couldn't speak but about a half dozen words of English.

Representative FORD. So there was no real conversation between the two of you?

Mr. FORD. No.

Representative FORD. That is all.

Mr. MURRAY. Mr. Chief Justice, may I confer briefly with counsel?

The CHAIRMAN. Where were you born?

Mr. FORD. Los Angeles.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you go to the public schools there?

Mr. FORD. I attended both parochial and public schools in Los Angeles and Glendale.

The CHAIRMAN. Then you went to the University of California at Los Angeles?

Mr. FORD. Right.

The CHAIRMAN. Where did you go after that. You were in the service, did you say?

Mr. FORD. I was in the service. After I got out of the service I went back to UCLA and finished my education and then went to work in the oil industry first in Bakersfield and in Los Angeles, Ventura, and then went to work for DeGollyer and McNaughton overseas.

The CHAIRMAN. I see.

Representative FORD. How old are you, Mr. Ford?

Mr. FORD. Forty-one.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Ford, were you at any time present in Mr. McKenzie's office, William McKenzie, when there was a discussion with Marina Oswald concerning guns and the gun that was used to or presumably used to attack Walker and the gun that was subsequently presumably used to attack the President?

Mr. FORD. I don't remember any discussion. I have been in his office several times when he was discussing things with Marina, but I don't remember him ever asking about this gun or discussing this gun.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear McKenzie at anytime advise Marina if she were asked about these guns she should say there was only one gun?

Mr. FORD. I think I did hear him say that once or something to that effect but I don't remember specifically the words.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you recall----

Mr. FORD. But I don't think it was any discussion about the gun used in shooting General Walker.

Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us about it.

Mr. FORD. As nearly as I can remember it, the whole discussion was, he was telling her, he had asked her if there was anything else but this one rifle and she said no, and he said "be sure you always say that there was just this one gun," but I thought he was referring to the gun used only in the case of the assassination.

Mr. LIEBELER. He asked her about this before he advised her?

Mr. FORD. Apparently this was after she had been interrogated by the FBI and I don't know--I just had the impression they were talking about the possibility that more than one gun was used in the assassination of President Kennedy.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is that the best you can recall about that conversation?

Mr. FORD. The best I can recall, yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. That is all.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much, Mr. Ford. I appreciate your coming here with your wife. You have been very helpful.

The CHAIRMAN. Let's call Mr. Gregory.

TESTIMONY OF PETER PAUL GREGORY

Mr. Gregory, you were given a copy of a statement of the reason for our meeting today, were you not?

Mr. GREGORY. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Then I will read it to you. This is customary----

Mr. GREGORY. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. We read a statement to the witness.

The purpose of this hearing is to take the testimony of Mr. and Mrs. Declan P. Ford, and Mr. Peter Paul Gregory. The Commission has been advised that Mr. and Mrs. Ford made the acquaintance of the Oswalds shortly after their arrival in the United States in June of 1962, and that Mrs. Marina Oswald lived in the Ford home on two different occasions, in November 1962, and for a period following February 12, 1964.

The Commission has also been advised that Mr. Gregory was contacted by Mr. Lee Harvey Oswald shortly after Mr. Oswald's return from Russia as a result of which Mr. and Mrs. Oswald made the acquaintances of a large number of Russian speaking people in the Dallas and Fort Worth area. Since the Commission is inquiring fully into the background and possible motive of Lee Harvey Oswald, the alleged assassin, it intends to ask the above witnesses questions concerning Mr. Oswald, his associations and relations with others, and any and all matters relating to the assassination.

Mr. GREGORY. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Will you raise your right hand and be sworn, please, Mr. Gregory.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. GREGORY. I do.

The CHAIRMAN. You may be seated.

Mr. Liebeler will ask the questions of you.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your name for the record, please?

Mr. GREGORY. My name is Peter Paul Gregory.

Mr. LIEBELER. And will you tell us where you were born?

Mr. GREGORY. I was born in Chita, Siberia.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us briefly how you came to the United States?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes, sir.

I came to the United States on or about August 1, 1923. I landed in San Francisco; came from Japan where I lived for 2 years prior to that. And my purpose was, of course, to come as an immigrant and to attend the University of California.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you attend the University of California?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes, sir; I enrolled at the University in 1923 and I stayed out of the University for a couple of years but I graduated in 1929 as a petroleum engineer at Berkeley.

Mr. LIEBELER. What educational background did you have in Russia or Japan before you came to the United States?

Mr. GREGORY. I started my primary education in Russia, in 1912, and my education was interrupted by civil war in 1919. I finished high school or the equivalent of high school in Tokyo, Japan, where I attended the American school in Japan.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you learn to speak English?

Mr. GREGORY. I learned it in Japan.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you personally involved in the civil war in Russia?

Mr. GREGORY. Not personally, no. I was too young; I was only 16, 17 at the time.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were any of your relatives involved in that?

Mr. GREGORY. My older brother was an officer in the White Russian Army.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you presently reside in Fort Worth?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes, sir. I have been residing in Fort Worth for the past 20 years, and prior to that in the oilfields in the western part of Texas for 15 years, and prior to that I resided in California from 1923 to 1929.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are presently self-employed in Fort Worth, is that correct?

Mr. GREGORY. I am presently chairman of the Yates Pool Engineering Committee which is a group of engineers supervising activities in the Yates oilfield in Pecos County, Tex., and I am also a consulting petroleum engineer.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you are fluent in the Russian language, are you?

Mr. GREGORY. I am, I think.

Mr. LIEBELER. In fact, you teach Russian at the Fort Worth Public Library, is that correct?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes, I do; as a civic enterprise. I teach Russian once a week from 10 to 20 weeks a year.

Mr. LIEBELER. Approximately how long have you been doing that, sir?

Mr. GREGORY. For about 3 or 4 years.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us about your first contact with Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes, sir.

It was in the middle of June 1962. On that particular morning, I was in the office, my telephone rang, and the voice on the other end told me that my name was given to him by the Fort Worth Public Library. He knew I was teaching Russian at the library, that he was looking for a job as a translator or interpreter in the Russian and English languages, and that he would like for me to give him a letter testifying to that effect.

He spoke to me in English, so I suggested to him, not knowing who that was, that he might drop by my office and I would be glad to give him a test. He did. He came by the office, about 11 o'clock that morning, and I gave him a short test by simply opening a book at random and asking him to read a paragraph or two and then translate it.

He did it very well. So I gave him a letter addressed to whom it may concern that in my opinion he was capable of being an interpreter or a translator.

Mr. LIEBELER. What happened after you gave Mr. Oswald--this individual was Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes, sir; that individual was Lee Harvey Oswald.

After that, I asked him--I noticed that he spoke with what I thought to be a Polish accent, so I asked him if he were of Polish origin, and he stated that he was not, that he was raised in Fort Worth, Tex., but that he learned Russian in the Soviet Union where he lived for 2-1/2 or 3 years.

He also told me that he married a Russian girl, and that he brought his wife with him, and that they also had a baby. I told him that I knew of no openings at the time--I didn't know of any--for services of a translator or interpreter, but that if he would leave his address I would be glad to get in touch with him if and when I learned of any such openings.

He gave me his address. He lived with his brother at that time at the western edge of Fort Worth.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever send him any work as a translator or interpreter?

Mr. GREGORY. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you and Mr. Oswald have lunch together that day.

Mr. GREGORY. Yes, sir. It was about noontime when I gave him that test, so I invited him to lunch, and during the lunch being naturally curious about the present day life in the Soviet Union, I was asking him questions, asked how people lived there, and so forth.

He told me that he was employed in a factory in Minsk as a sheet-metal worker. He told me a little bit about the working conditions and living conditions in that country.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you how he was paid as a worker?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes; I think I asked him what he was paid and my recollection is that he told me he was getting about 80 rubles a month. I may be wrong about that but that is my recollection.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he compare his salary with the salary of other workers in Russia?

Mr. GREGORY. Other workers in the Soviet Union?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mr. GREGORY. No, he did not. By way of comparison. I was curious as to what the purchasing power of his earnings would be, I asked him what 80 rubles would buy, and I think he mentioned, as I say, a pair of shoes cost around 15 rubles.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate to you that he had any source of income other than his job at the factory?

Mr. GREGORY. No, sir; he did not.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you anything about why he went to Russia?

Mr. GREGORY. The only statement he made that I remember, he said, "I went to the Soviet Union on my own," but I did not feel like prying into his affairs. I did not press the question.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you notice anything about the way he was dressed or anything else about him that would seem strange to you?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes; it was a very hot morning. You know in Texas in the middle of June, it is generally hot. I remember that he wore a flannel, woolen coat, suit, and atrocious looking shoes that were made in Russia.

I know he was very uncomfortable because he was too warmly dressed for that time of the year.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mr. Oswald tell you anything else at that time about conditions in the Soviet Union or his attempt to come back to the United States or bringing his wife back that you can recall?

Mr. GREGORY. I don't recall of anything outstanding that he told me. But I think he did tell me that they, he and his wife, left Moscow by train, and they went through East Germany to Berlin, I believe, and that their destination was Amsterdam, I believe, where they took a ship to come to New York.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he express anything about any difficulties that he might have had in returning to the United States?

Mr. GREGORY. No, sir; not to my recollection.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did it seem extraordinary to you that his wife was able to leave the Soviet Union with him or didn't you think about that?

Mr. GREGORY. I thought at the time it was more than extraordinary.

Mr. LIEBELER. Why do you say that?

Mr. GREGORY. Because simply from reading accounts of the difficulties experienced by so many Americans who married Russian girls in the Soviet Union, and all the difficulties they had to secure permits from the Soviet Government for an exit visa for their wives.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss that with Mr. Oswald?

Mr. GREGORY. I did not.

Mr. LIEBELER. When was the next time you saw him?

Mr. GREGORY. The next time was a few days later, and the occasion was this, to the best of my recollection. My youngest son Paul, who at the time was a junior at the University of Oklahoma, Paul majoring in economics and also studying the Russian and the German languages, Paul expressed a wish to meet Marina Oswald simply because she was fresh from the country, Russia; that presumably her language was pure Russian language as compared to mine which became, shall we say, affected by my 40 years living in the United States, is not pure Russian any more probably, in fact, he thought that maybe he could take lessons of the Russian language from Marina Oswald.

So, I arranged; I called Lee Oswald at his brother's residence, and asked if it would be, if they would be, at home, that my son and I would come out to visit them, and we did. I don't remember the date but it must have been within possibly within 10 days, the first 10 days after his initial contact with me at the office.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let us try to set the date of your initial contact. I have here a copy, not a confirmed copy, but just a typewritten copy of a letter entitled "To Whom it May Concern." I show it to you and ask you if that is the letter to the best of your recollection that you gave to Mr. Oswald?

Mr. GREGORY. I think that is a copy of the letter I gave. That was on June 19, 1962.

Mr. LIEBELER. I ask that it be admitted in evidence and marked as the next exhibit.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be marked.

It will be marked as Exhibit 384.

Very well, it is admitted as Exhibit 384.

(The letter referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 384 for identification and received in evidence.)

Mr. GREGORY. I would hazard a guess that the second contact with Lee Oswald that I just referred to was made, say, around the 25th, toward the end of June 1962.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you went to see him at his brother's house?

Mr. GREGORY. At his brother Robert's, Robert Oswald's house. Paul and I spent there perhaps an hour, speaking Russian with Marina, and mostly with Marina. They showed some pictures, snapshots of their friends, of themselves, taken in Minsk. We talked about the living conditions, just in a very general way.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss politics with Mr. Oswald?

Mr. GREGORY. No, sir; we did not.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss politics with him at any time?

Mr. GREGORY. Not with Lee Oswald, no.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you get the impression from just talking to the Oswalds at this time that Oswald was treated pretty much as other Russians were in Russia or did you think he had a special situation there in any way?

Mr. GREGORY. My personal impression was that he was treated there as the rest of the Russians.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did your son subsequently have additional contacts with the Oswalds?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes. He and I made arrangements for Marina Oswald to give him lessons, conversational lessons, I believe it was twice a week, and Paul paid her for these lessons. I don't remember the exact amount, whether it came under the minimum or not, it was around a dollar and a half an hour. And he took those lessons after he made a visit to his aunt in San Francisco in July of 1962. So, I would say that he took lessons from Marina Oswald, say, from approximately August 1 to September 15 when he went back to the university of Oklahoma.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember when the last contact was that your son had with the Oswalds?

Mr. GREGORY. To the best of my knowledge his last contact with them was the Thanksgiving Day of 1962.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did your son tell you whether he had discussions with Oswald concerning politics and economics and things like that?

Mr. GREGORY. He mentioned once, I believe, that there were political discussions.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did he tell you about that?

Mr. GREGORY. He told me that he thought Lee Oswald was pretty silly in his views.

The CHAIRMAN. Pretty silly?

Mr. GREGORY. Silly.

The CHAIRMAN. Silly.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he express any other----

Mr. GREGORY. He also mentioned that he saw some book on Marxism, whether it was Das Kapital or some other book I don't recall now, but he saw a book on Marxism in Lee's residence when they lived on Mercedes Street in Fort Worth.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he say in words or substance that he thought that Oswald was a half-baked Communist?

Mr. GREGORY. I think that is the expression he used, yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did there--did you ever go to Oswald's own apartment?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes, I went there once to take Paul to his lesson. I, in other words I visited in their so-called living room once, when they lived on Mercedes Street.

Mr. LIEBELER. In Fort Worth?

Mr. GREGORY. In Fort Worth, yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us what the conditions in their home were like?

Mr. GREGORY. It was practically a bare room. There was no furniture to speak of. There was the bare necessities; there was no playpen or crib for the baby. The baby was playing in the middle of the floor in the living room, as I remember. It was an extremely primitively furnished room, and the rest of the house was the same way.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any impression as to whether the Oswald baby was being adequately cared for?

Mr. GREGORY. No; that I don't know. I do know this, that Oswald showed outward signs of love toward the baby. He would pucker his lips and this and that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Indicating that he had affection for the child?

Mr. GREGORY. For the child.

Mr. LIEBELER. At that visit did you have any discussion with Oswald about living conditions or anything else in Russia?

Mr. GREGORY. No, sir; I simply took Paul in for that lesson, and I left before the lesson began.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did there come a time when you held a dinner party to which you invited Mr. Oswald?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes. Well, really, it was not a dinner party. It was a small dinner. I mentioned the fact that Marina Oswald went to school in Leningrad, formerly St. Petersburg prior to the revolution, and a friend of mine, George Bouhe of Dallas, who is an accountant, was born and raised in St. Petersburg. He indicated to me that he would like to meet Marina Oswald and his fellow townswoman and townsman, so I discussed it with my wife, and she thought she will invite Marina Oswald and Lee Oswald and Mr. Bouhe, and a friend of Mr. Bouhe, Mrs. Meller of Dallas, to their dinner. I am sure Paul was at home at that time, so there were six of us at the dinner and my wife and my son.

Mr. LIEBELER. Will you tell us when the dinner was held?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes; it was before Paul went back to school so I assume it was in the early party of September, maybe it was late in August.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Bouhe is a native born Russian?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes; he was born in St. Petersburg.

Mr. LIEBELER. What about Mrs. Meller?

Mr. GREGORY. I assume Mrs. Meller was born in Ukrania.

Mr. LIEBELER. During this dinner party was there any discussion between Mrs. Meller and Mr. Bouhe with the Oswalds concerning their background, experiences in Russia?

Mr. GREGORY. The conversation, as I recall it, centered mostly on St. Petersburg. Bouhe brought with him his albums of St. Petersburg, and he was asking her and they were both looking at the pictures, and is such and such statue on the main street of St. Petersburg, and so on and so forth. I think that was the gist of the conversation.

They also discussed the present day life in the Soviet Union. I do recall, the conversation was mostly with Marina, and she did not speak any English at that time, so all of that conversation was in the Russian language, which my wife does not understand at all.

I remembered that Lee Oswald hazarded, he would interject into the conversation, and he was a little bit critical of the attitude of the Soviet Government toward its own people, and here is what I am trying to say; he said they make the best shoes in Minsk for export, and the people get the--and I think he indicated his own shoes, which he still wore at that time. Then just very, very slight criticism, not politically, but sort of in the sense of economics that the people were not getting the best products, they were all for export.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, at that time was there any indication that Oswald was better treated than other people in the Soviet Union or did you maintain the impression throughout your acquaintance with Oswald that he was treated similarly to other Russians?

Mr. GREGORY. That was my impression, that he was treated the same as other Russians.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you detect any friction between Marina Oswald and Lee Oswald at this dinner?

Mr. GREGORY. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any indication at that time that Lee Oswald had beaten his wife in any way?

Mr. GREGORY. Not at that time; no, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see any indication that Marina Oswald had been beaten?

Mr. GREGORY. No, sir; I haven't seen it personally. I have heard reports from my friends that he did mistreat her physically, and that he had blackened her eyes, and once even extinguished a cigarette on her shoulder, something like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who told you that?

Mr. GREGORY. To the best of my recollection it was either--I think it was Bouhe or it could have been Mrs. Meller, but I believe it was Bouhe.

Mr. LIEBELER. That was at a time subsequent to this dinner party?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes, sir; subsequent. It was after the assassination of the President.

Mr. LIEBELER. That Bouhe told you?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald at all discuss the reason why he went to Russia?

Mr. GREGORY. No; he just told me, you know once, the very first time I met him that he went there on his own.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate any desire to return to Russia?

Mr. GREGORY. I learned subsequently that he did but he never indicated it to me.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Oswald maintained contacts with people that he had associated with in Russia?

Mr. GREGORY. None to my knowledge.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know that he wrote them letters?

Mr. GREGORY. No, sir. Excuse me, sir, when you asked me about his relations with Marina Oswald, I don't know whether this is of any importance or not, but during my first visit at their apartment on Mercedes Street in Fort Worth, the second time I saw Marina, I suggested to him that he should insist that she learn English as quickly as possible because it would be so much easier for her to get along in this country, and he replied that he would prefer that she did not learn English at all or else he would lose his fluency in the Russian language.

So it showed to me that he didn't particularly care about her. He cared more about himself.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you say anything to him in response to that?

Mr. GREGORY. No, sir; I was frankly very much disgusted with that sort of attitude.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever come to your office?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes, he came to my office once or twice more. Once I was in the office when he came, and at that time, apparently he was downtown, my office is downtown in Fort Worth, he brought with him some typewritten sheets which he told me he was writing his memoirs of his life in the Soviet Union.

I remember seeing, I did not read the manuscripts at all, but I saw some snapshots or photographs attached to some typewritten sheets.

Mr. LIEBELER. During this time that you--did you have any other contacts with Oswald?

Mr. GREGORY. Well, he came to the office once more but I was not in the office, my secretary told me that he came by.