Part 49

Mr. FORD. That was back in 1962. I can't remember the specific time, but----

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any conversation with Mr. and Mrs. Harris at the party at your place on the 28th of December?

Mr. FORD. Oh, yes; I had conversations with them.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear of an incident where Mrs. Harris was trying to teach English to Marina at the party and certain American customs and Oswald objected to it?

Mr. FORD. I didn't observe it. She may have tried to teach her some American customs. I don't remember hearing Oswald say anything about it, Lee Oswald say anything about it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mrs. Harris say anything about it to you?

Mr. FORD. Not that I can remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. So you have no knowledge of that incident if it occurred at all?

Mr. FORD. No. It seems to me I have heard somebody else mention this but I did not see it or hear anything myself.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, after the party on the 28th of December that was held at your house, when was the next contact that you had with either one of the Oswalds?

Mr. FORD. Well, I heard a few times or my wife had heard something about Marina living in Irving, but never actually saw either one of them until after the assassination. Then the first contact we had with Marina was, I believe, my wife tried to get in touch with her, either invite her to come to my house or to tell her that once things had been cleared up, the investigation had been cleared up, to feel free to come by, and let her know she still had friends.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did anybody suggest to you shortly after the assassination that Marina should come and live with you?

Mr. FORD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever express any hesitancy to anyone in connection with any suggestion that Marina should come and live with you?

Mr. FORD. I don't remember ever expressing it. If somebody had mentioned it the afternoon or next day after the assassination I probably would have been a little bit hesitant about it. But I don't remember saying anything to anybody.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time when Marina moved into your home after the assassination?

Mr. FORD. Yes; but this was in February of this year.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you express any hesitancy at that time?

Mr. FORD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you don't recall expressing any immediately after the assassination or before?

Mr. FORD. No. I don't remember talking to anybody at all about it. I mean the first few days immediately after the assassination, I don't recall saying anything to anybody about it, where she was going to live at my house or anybody else's.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have any conversations with Mr. Jim Martin on that subject?

Mr. FORD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now prior to the time that Marina came to live in your home, your wife has testified she talked to Marina on the telephone several times and that Marina came to visit on two or three occasions, two occasions, I believe, at your home.

Mr. FORD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to your wife about what Marina had said during your wife's visits with Marina?

Mr. FORD. When she came to visit us in our home?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mr. FORD. I talked to her about what she had talked to Marina, and I couldn't carry on much of a conversation with Marina myself because she didn't speak much English but I would ask my wife, and my wife would tell me what she had said.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether there was any discussion about Marina's testimony before this Commission, either before she went to Washington or after she came back?

Mr. FORD. No; not--my wife never told me before she came to Washington to testify before the Commission. After she came back, I did overhear some conversation between Marina, my wife, and Mr. William M. McKenzie regarding the testimony given to the Commission.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us what that was to the best of your recollection?

Let me ask you this: Where did this occur?

Mr. FORD. I think it was in Mr. McKenzie's office, it may have been either in his office or my home but I think it was in his office, and I believe the FBI had been questioning her this afternoon, I am not sure of the date, and I came back later to pick up my wife and Marina and in my presence Mr. McKenzie asked my wife to ask Marina in Russian if she had told the Commission this Nixon story. I don't know the details of the story, but something regarding the threat to Mr. Nixon.

And I think Marina, again through my wife, told Mr. McKenzie that she had not mentioned this to the Commission. But that she had mentioned it to the FBI, and she had mentioned it, I believe to the FBI prior to the Commission hearing.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who told you that?

Mr. FORD. Well, I was standing there while Mr. McKenzie was talking to Marina using my wife as a translator.

Representative FORD. Was this in your home, did you say?

Mr. FORD. I think it was in Mr. McKenzie's office; it might have been in my home. Several times I have overheard conversation either in Mr. McKenzie's office or at my home.

Representative FORD. It could have been in either?

Mr. FORD. It could have been either, but it seems to me it was at his office. I think as Marina said, she had not said anything to the Commission about this, and then I think Mr. McKenzie asked her why not, and she said well she hadn't thought of it or nobody asked her; something to that effect.

I think he was trying to establish whether or not she had purposely withheld information from the Commission and she said no.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear Marina Oswald make any remark to the effect when she was before the Commission she just answered questions and did not volunteer anything?

Mr. FORD. I never heard her say that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did anybody ever translate that, a remark like that, so that you heard it when it was translated?

Mr. FORD. No; I never heard anybody translate for Marina and say that; no.

In my presence, I never heard her say that and have it translated by anybody.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear from anybody else that she had said that?

Mr. FORD. Not until yesterday when I was talking about it with you, that I can remember anything.

Mr. LIEBELER. And yesterday when we talked about it, I asked you the question, had anybody said that, isn't that right?

Mr. FORD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you obtain any information concerning the Nixon, any detailed information concerning the Nixon affair as a result of detailed conversations with your wife after she had had conversations with Marina? I am assuming Marina would speak in Russian to your wife. Did your wife ever tell you what Marina had ever said to her about the Nixon affair?

Mr. FORD. A little bit, not all the details. But something to the effect that Lee Oswald was threatening, I don't know whether to shoot Nixon, and in some way she had locked him in a bathroom and kept him there, I think all day. He had calmed down or cooled off and wasn't going to do anything. Just how she managed to do this, I don't know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss the question with your wife as to how?

Mr. FORD. No; not--again, I never discussed it until yesterday, last night. I was talking to her and wondered how the devil she managed to lock him in the bathroom.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you discussed that with your wife last night as a result of a similar question that I asked you yesterday afternoon when we were reviewing the testimony?

Mr. FORD. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you learn anything relating to the Walker affair as a result of conversations with your wife?

Mr. FORD. Well, I had read about it in the newspapers; I had read stories that Lee Oswald had told Marina that he had taken a shot at General Walker and my wife did tell me later on she asked Marina if this were true and I think Marina said this was true, that Lee Oswald had told Marina he was the one who had taken a shot at General Walker.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is that the extent of your conversations about the Walker incident?

Mr. FORD. No; she mentioned something else that my wife told me about. That after Lee had taken a shot at General Walker, he had hidden the gun somewhere and went back the next day or a few days later and recovered the gun. And that Lee was reading the reports in the newspaper and made some statement, "Well, how stupid can the police be," something to this effect. In other words, expressing the idea that the police were unable to find out what happened in the Walker incident. And then also Marina had said at one time, I believe the day after the shooting of Walker or attempted shooting of Walker, George De Mohrenschildt had come into the house and made some statement to them regarding it. I can't remember the exact words but it was referring to it, Walker, somebody shooting at General Walker, and asking Lee how he could miss and she was surprised that De Mohrenschildt knew about it and Marina thought Lee had told George De Mohrenschildt about it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever learn how George De Mohrenschildt had learned about it?

Mr. FORD. No; I imagine he was surprised that Lee had done the shooting and to him it would have been a good joke.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember anything else about the Walker incident that you and your wife may have talked about?

Mr. FORD. Yes; we have discussed it some after, I believe, Marina came to stay with us, and I expressed the doubt that Lee Oswald was the one who took a shot at Walker.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any basis for expressing that doubt?

Mr. FORD. The only basis for it was that there was a story in one of the newspapers that they could not identify the bullet taken out of the wood in Walker's home as having come from a gun that Lee Oswald owned, it was too badly destroyed and they couldn't be sure it was the gun, the same gun, that shot the bullets at President Kennedy and Governor Connally.

Mr. LIEBELER. So on the basis of that newspaper story you expressed doubts as to whether Oswald was actually involved in the Walker incident?

Mr. FORD. Well, I expressed the doubt. It was possible that he really wasn't the one who took a shot at General Walker but just claimed he did and this to me would not be surprising.

Mr. LIEBELER. Why do you say that?

Mr. FORD. Well, I think, my opinion of Lee Oswald is that he would do anything to gain attention for himself, draw attention to himself, make not necessarily a hero out of himself but just a well-known person. He wanted attention. He wanted to be a big shot.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you think in an attempt to do that he might claim he had been the one who shot at Walker where, in fact, he was not the one at all?

Mr. FORD. It is possible, I think it is possible.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any conversations with your wife in which your wife told you anything that Marina said about the details of the assassination, about Lee's coming home to Irving and his leaving for Dallas the next morning?

Mr. FORD. Well, we talked about it; I don't recall all the details of what my wife told me, whether they were my wife's opinions or things she had heard directly from Marina.

Apparently Marina was surprised that he would come home in the middle of the week rather than on weekends or come to visit her, and I gathered that Marina had thought of these things after the assassination, as she tried to figure things out. Well this increased her belief that Lee Oswald was the man who assassinated the President, because he did so many strange things that week, I mean that day before, not the week, the day before the assassination.

Mr. LIEBELER. To your knowledge, has Marina expressed any feeling about Oswald's guilt while she lived with you or while you were acquainted with her after the assassination, other than the fact he was guilty?

Mr. FORD. No; so far as I know she just accepts the fact he was guilty. He was the man who shot the President. And she believes this is true.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss this question with Robert Oswald?

Mr. FORD. No, not specifically, I didn't. I never asked Robert Oswald if he believed that his brother shot the President.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever indicate to you that he did not believe that?

Mr. FORD. Not directly. The only thing that might have indicated it was when Life published a picture of Lee Oswald on the front cover and I read a newspaper article which stated that Mrs. Marguerite Oswald was intending to sue Life Magazine and I wondered why, was the picture faked, and Robert Oswald said no it was a true picture of Lee Oswald but the title of the picture, that is what he was upset about, and I think the title was Lee Oswald holding the gun he either used to shoot or used to kill the President, and I didn't pursue the subject further with him.

I don't know specifically what he was upset about, if he thought his brother did shoot the President. There was nothing wrong with the statement except he may not have liked it in print.

Mr. LIEBELER. That was the only statement Robert Oswald made to you about the subject.

Mr. FORD. But he never said he didn't believe his brother did it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any other reasons for thinking that Oswald is the kind of person who would claim to do something that he hadn't done just to get attention drawn to him?

Mr. FORD. Well, yes; I think he was erratic enough in his behavior throughout his whole life to indicate that. Of course, I have read a lot about his life since the assassination, so it is not all opinion I formed prior to the assassination.

It is hard for me to distinguish which things I thought before the assassination from those I have thought about since the assassination.

Mr. LIEBELER. In that respect let me ask you this question: Were you surprised when you heard that Oswald had been charged with the assassination?

Mr. FORD. Yes, I was.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think on the basis of your knowledge of him before the assassination that he would have been capable of such a thing?

Mr. FORD. No; I wouldn't have thought so prior to the assassination and when I first heard he was picked up, I first thought, well, as I said to my wife, "This nut has gone down and got himself mixed up just to get some publicity."

Representative FORD. You said that to your wife?

Mr. FORD. Yes; that was my first opinion. When I heard that Lee Oswald was the man arrested, and I said I think I said, "This idiot has got himself arrested and got himself mixed up to get some publicity".

Mr. LIEBELER. What made you say that?

Mr. FORD. Again, I considered him to be erratic and unpredictable, I don't know how to explain the things that he would do.

For example, he had gone to Russia and he didn't like it there, he had gone back to Fort Worth and he didn't like it there. He didn't seem to like any place that he was, he didn't seem to make lasting friendships with anybody. And he would hop from one job to another, and move from one town to another. He never seemed to be satisfied and I considered his whole behavior rather erratic, and I suppose the main reason was, I felt that he had no desire to support, and I felt this prior to the assassination, he had no desire to support his wife and child, and he wanted and would be quite willing to sponge off anybody to get their support, and this was my primary reason for not wanting to associate with him rather than any political feelings he had.

Mr. LIEBELER. How did these things lead you to think that he was not capable of doing the assassination or that he just went there to get involved?

Mr. FORD. Prior to the assassination I never even considered the possibility of his killing a man but if somebody had asked me prior to the assassination, I would have answered no, I don't think he would kill anybody. But I don't think I really even considered it.

Mr. LIEBELER. You would have----

Mr. FORD. When the President was assassinated.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you would have based that response on the things you mentioned already.

Is there anything else you would have based that reason on?

Mr. FORD. Well, it is difficult to say. My general opinion of the man was that he was strange and he did a lot of things I couldn't understand but I had no reason to think he would attack a person with the intent to kill him.

As far as I knew there was nothing he had ever done before that that would indicate he would ever kill anybody. I don't know how you tell ahead of time whether a man can commit murder. I was never worried about him going out and killing somebody: say I would have never said prior to the assassination that you have got to watch out for this guy, he is dangerous. He didn't impress me that way.

Mr. LIEBELER. You had information prior to the assassination that he had beaten his wife, did you not?

Mr. FORD. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. And did you take that information, would you take that, into consideration in the judgment that you just expressed?

Mr. FORD. No; I don't think so. I think man and wife can fight over a lot of things and it isn't necessary that either one of them would intend to kill somebody. He might become violent toward his wife, who is a much smaller and weaker person but he never impressed me as the type of person who would violently attack another man, for example.

Mr. FORD. When did you first hear that Lee Oswald was held by the authorities?

Mr. FORD. It was the afternoon of the assassination, I heard on the radio.

Mr. LIEBELER. What was your reaction then?

Mr. FORD. Just what I said, my first reaction, "This idiot has gone down to get himself some attention and confuse the whole issue."

At that time I didn't know he was working in the School Book Depository Building.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did you do subsequent to hearing this radio broadcast?

Mr. FORD. Let's see; I heard it in a hardware store and I went and picked up my wife who was shopping at the grocery store, picked her up, and told her what I had heard and we went home. I didn't do anything specifically that I can think of. I did not mention it to anybody.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you and your wife on the way home from this shopping trip discuss the apprehension of Lee Oswald and his implication in the affair?

Mr. FORD. Well, I told her the police had picked him up, and that he was apparently being held both for the assassination of the President and for shooting a police officer, and my wife was a little bit worried then, I think, about the people's reaction to the children, and she said, well, "Don't mention it in front of the children."

By the time we got home, I believe Linda, my stepdaughter, had already talked on the phone to Mrs. Anna Ray, who had also heard the radio broadcast and called up to ask if my wife had heard it, and, of course, by then it was too late, they knew who Lee Oswald was, they read who he was, that Marina stayed at our house.

Mr. LIEBELER. Then if I understand it you and your wife voluntarily went down to police headquarters?

Mr. FORD. Well, the next Sunday.

Mr. LIEBELER. Two days later?

Mr. FORD. Yes; the assassination was on a Friday afternoon. On Sunday morning, Mr. Frank Ray called me and said he heard on the radio that the FBI had requested anybody who knew Lee Oswald to please contact them, and he asked me what I was going to do, I said, "Well, I don't know, I will call an attorney and see what he suggests." I called Max Clark at Fort Worth and he was out, so I called my sister out in Los Angeles. She is an attorney and married to one, and I said, "Who are you supposed to contact if you know information about Lee Oswald," and she said she assumed it would be the FBI, so I then called the FBI office and made an appointment to talk to an agent and we made the appointment to talk in the FBI office in downtown Dallas. While we were driving downtown I stopped to get some gas and the attendant told me that somebody had just shot Lee Oswald and it was right about that time that I went down to talk with the FBI.

Mr. LIEBELER. In this interval between your first reaction and your going to the interview with the FBI, did you and your wife discuss any further the Oswald implications?

Mr. FORD. I am sure we discussed it, but I can't remember exactly what we said to each other about it.

I think she was worried at first that her children would suffer some prejudice from other people.

Mr. LIEBELER. Marina's children?

Mr. FORD. No; our children. And, of course, also that Marina was and her two children, my wife felt, would be sort of considered persona non grata in this country from then on, but I didn't consider this would happen as long as she was not implicated in a plot to kill the President.

I know we discussed it but I just can't remember specifically what we said.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Ford, did you at any time learn of any desire on Oswald's part to return to Russia?

Mr. FORD. Yes; after the assassination I did.

Mr. LIEBELER. How did you learn that?

Mr. FORD. Well, partly from discussing it, I heard it through friends and then later when Marina talked to my wife, I don't remember if this was during the time she visited us during January or after she moved in, but she did tell the story to my wife of his desire, as expressing a desire, to return to Russia, and I am a little confused as to what the story was.

As nearly as I could make out he had told her he wanted to go back to Russia first and then later said, no, he was going--couldn't get a visa to Russia and he was going to try to get a visa and go through Cuba and then go to Russia, and then I think he changed his mind again and said he was going to ask for a visa to Cuba, using it as an excuse with the idea of going to Russia and then stay in Cuba, and somewhere in there I got the idea that Marina was not willing to go. He wanted Marina to return to Russia and I had the impression this was just a--but I couldn't even give you the details of her various statements which led me to the conclusions--as nearly as I could figure out, this was the story she had told my wife and she told me.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you learn at any time through your wife or otherwise that Marina Oswald at one point had contemplated committing suicide?

Mr. FORD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us about that?

Mr. FORD. Well, the first time I heard it was yesterday.

Mr. LIEBELER. During our conversations?

Mr. FORD. During our conversations, yesterday.

Mr. LIEBELER. And your wife explained to us in our conversations yesterday that she, Marina Oswald, had told her at onetime contemplated committing suicide?

Mr. FORD. That is right.

Mr. LIEBELER. That was the extent of our conversations yesterday?

Mr. FORD. Yes, sir. That is right. I think my wife said Marina felt so desolate and downhearted that she felt that was the only way out at the time.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you finished?

Mr. FORD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any other information or knowledge that you think the Commission should know about in connection with these matters that we haven't already asked you about?

Mr. FORD. There is nothing I can think of offhand.

Mr. LIEBELER. In our conversations yesterday you and your wife and I discussed your testimony today. Have we covered those matters here in the testimony and have there been any inconsistencies between what we discussed yesterday and what we have discussed today on the record that you can think of?

Mr. FORD. No; I can't think of any inconsistencies. I assume we have covered everything we discussed yesterday. I can't remember everything we discussed yesterday, so I am just assuming we covered it.

Mr. LIEBELER. I have no more questions then.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you anything further, Congressman Ford?

Representative FORD. Mr. Ford, you drove Marina Oswald from your home to the Ray home?

Mr. FORD. Yes.

Representative FORD. In October or November of 1962?

Mr. FORD. It was in November.

Representative FORD. It was November of 1962. How long a drive is that?

Mr. FORD. It is about 15 minutes. I guess it couldn't be over 7 or 8 miles, 6, 7, 8 miles, something like that.