Part 48

Mr. FORD. I was graduated from the University of California at Los Angeles in 1948, with a Bachelor of Arts degree in Geology, and was first employed by Tidewater Associated Oil Co. as a geologist, later with the Continental Oil Co. as a geologist, and then later with DeGollyer McNaughton, a consulting firm in Dallas, Tex., until 1962, October. I went into business for myself as a consulting geologist. All this time has been in exploration, development of oil and gas fields both in the United States and foreign countries.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you been employed in and about the Fort Worth and Dallas area ever since you graduated from college?

Mr. FORD. No; I have only been in the Dallas area since January 1960.

Mr. LIEBELER. Your wife's name is Katherine Ford?

Mr. FORD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. When were you married?

Mr. FORD. We were married July 1960. July 2.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you married at any time prior to that?

Mr. FORD. No; I was not.

The CHAIRMAN. '62, did you say?

Mr. FORD. 1960.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you acquainted with Jack Ruby?

Mr. FORD. No; I am not.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know of any connection between Lee Oswald and Jack Ruby?

Mr. FORD. No; I don't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Directly or indirectly?

Mr. FORD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Mr. John M. Grizzaffi?

Mr. FORD. Yes; I knew him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether or not he is a friend or associate of Jack Ruby's?

Mr. FORD. I don't know. I have heard that he knows Jack Ruby, I don't know how well he knows him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Mr. Grizzaffi had any contact with the Oswalds or knew them?

Mr. FORD. None that I knew of.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did you first meet the Oswalds?

Mr. FORD. In 1962, and I think it was in August of 1962, I am not sure of the exact date.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us the circumstances of the meeting?

Mr. FORD. I was a guest at the house of some friends, the Mellers, and the Oswalds had been there for lunch, and we came over after lunch to have cocktails and to meet Lee and Marina Oswald.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who was there at that time?

Mr. FORD. Mr. Meller and his wife, Anna Meller, George Bouhe, my wife and myself, Marina and Lee Oswald, and I can't remember for sure if anybody else. It seems to me there was somebody else there but I can't remember who it was. Someone else may have come in later or something like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you mention George Bouhe as being there?

Mr. FORD. Yes; George Bouhe was there.

Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned him?

Mr. FORD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who invited you to that luncheon?

Mr. FORD. Mrs. Meller.

Mr. LIEBELER. Had you heard of the Oswalds prior to that time?

Mr. FORD. Yes; I had.

Mr. LIEBELER. How?

Mr. FORD. I first heard of them, I think, from either George Bouhe or maybe from Max Clark who lives in Fort Worth but I think it was George Bouhe. He had mentioned the name of Lee Oswald and briefly described his history, his story of his going to Russia, attempting to give up his American citizenship, and later returning from Russia with a Russian wife and child, and living in Fort Worth, and we were, my wife is Russian and we were interested in meeting her. George Bouhe, I think, at the time was attempting to help Lee Oswald find employment.

Mr. LIEBELER. When you say "her" in that sentence you are referring to Mrs. Marina Oswald?

Mr. FORD. Yes; Marina Oswald.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is that the reason why basically you went to the lunch at the Mellers to meet Lee and Marina Oswald?

Mr. FORD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any conversation with the Oswalds at that time?

Mr. FORD. There was, most of the conversation was in Russian which I don't understand. I had very little conversation with Lee himself because he spoke Russian most of the time that afternoon and Marina didn't speak any English at all.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any conversations in English with Oswald about living conditions in Russia, about his expenses in Russia?

Mr. FORD. A little bit. He showed me pictures of people that he had worked with in Russia. I believe they were on a picnic together, a group of men, and various other pictures of places he had seen in Minsk, and he briefly described the living conditions in Russia, I guess the conditions under which he had lived in Russia, the small room they had to live in, and he said something about how much money he made there. I don't remember how much it was though.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you what kind of a job he had?

Mr. FORD. No, he didn't. I think George Bouhe told me he had been a sheet metal worker or something similar to that.

Mr. LIEBELER. In Minsk?

Mr. FORD. In Minsk, yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald compare to you the amount of money that he was paid with the amount of money that other workers in the plant were paid?

Mr. FORD. No; he said nothing about it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate in any way any source of income other than from his job?

Mr. FORD. None.

Mr. LIEBELER. At any time did he do that?

Mr. FORD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever learn of anything like that?

Mr. FORD. No; I have heard people speak of it but I have never heard him or anybody that knew him say he had another source of income.

Mr. LIEBELER. You have heard people speak of it when, since the assassination?

Mr. FORD. Since the assassination.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you heard nothing of it prior to the assassination?

Mr. FORD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you get any impressions of Oswald at this first meeting?

Mr. FORD. I had an impression that he was not the type of person I could make friends with very easily. He didn't impress me as being friendly to me as a person. He was kind of closed up within himself. And it seemed to me he preferred to speak in Russian rather than in English. He wanted to practice speaking Russian with the Russian speaking people rather than talking to me.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mrs. Oswald have any bruises on her at that time?

Mr. FORD. Yes, she did. On her face.

Mr. LIEBELER. On her face. Was there any conversation about that?

Mr. FORD. Not directly with me. My wife told me that Mrs. Oswald told her it was due to some accident of running into a door at nighttime while she was getting up to see what--the baby crying, something like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you accept that explanation?

Mr. FORD. I didn't--well, really, I didn't accept it. It just didn't make much sense but it didn't make an impression one way or the other to me. I frankly at the time thought of a standard cartoon joke of a kid explaining his black eye, by a kid explaining he ran into a doorknob.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was there anything that happened at this first luncheon that impressed you about Oswald or his attitude, in any way that you think the Commission should know about?

Mr. FORD. Very little. Except he seemed reserved, and I would call excessively polite, and the fact I don't think he made any effort to make friends with the other people.

Mr. LIEBELER. When was the next time that you had any contact with Oswald?

Mr. FORD. The next time I saw him was the night I drove Marina from our house to another friend's house, Mr. Frank Ray's house. She had been staying at our house for about a week and she had been separated from him.

I had been out of town and when I came home she was invited to stay over at Mr. Ray's house and I took her over there, I think it was on a Friday evening.

Lee Oswald called and wanted to talk to Marina and wanted then to come out and see her. Mr. Ray told him if he would get on the bus and come to the bus stop nearest their home that he would pick him up, and I went with Mr. Ray to pick up Lee Oswald at the bus stop.

We went back to Mr. Ray's home, and had a short conversation with Lee Oswald but he said he wanted to talk to Marina, and he and Marina went into another room. I don't know exactly how long it was but we sat down and had one or two drinks, and then Lee came back in and said he and his wife were going to have a reconciliation and she wanted to go home with him that evening. Mr. Ray offered to drive them back to their place in Oak Cliff, and then I went home.

Mr. LIEBELER. You were out of town throughout the entire time that Marina stayed with your wife?

Mr. FORD. Except for the last night. She stayed there one more night after I came home.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form any impression on Oswald that evening different from the one that you originally had of him?

Mr. FORD. Only it confirmed my original thought. I remember one instance. Frank asked him where he was working and he would never identify the place he was working. He would hedge, I forget his exact words, but he mentioned that he was working, I think in a printing shop, either printing or photographic developing shop, and Mr. Ray asked him the name of the place, I think, twice, and he avoided answering. He would just start talking about something completely different.

In other words, when he didn't want to answer a question he would either change the subject or just start talking to somebody else.

Mr. LIEBELER. You had no independent knowledge of where he was working at that time?

Mr. FORD. I didn't know the name. I had heard he was employed in this shop that I think was a printing and photographic developing shop.

Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't have anything to do with his getting that job?

Mr. FORD. No, I didn't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether your friend did?

Mr. FORD. I am not sure. I think either George Bouhe or maybe Theo Meller may have introduced him to the owner of the shop but I am not sure about it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any conversations with either Mr. Meller or Mr. Bouhe about this?

Mr. FORD. I have had conversations with them, but it was prior to this night when Lee came to make a reconciliation with his wife.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did they tell you that they had anything to do with his getting this job?

Mr. FORD. I don't specifically remember that they said so. I either assumed this or something they said led me to believe it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any conversations with the Rays that evening while you were taking Marina over there about the difficulties that the Oswalds had in their marriage?

Let's expand the question. Think about that, and also think about any conversations that you may have had with your wife about that after you went back, and tell us the conversations that you had with anybody at that time about the incidents of the separation, what caused it and what was the trouble between the Oswalds?

Mr. FORD. I don't believe I had any discussion with either Mr. or Mrs. Ray about specifically the difficulties in their marriage between Marina and Lee Oswald.

The only thing I remember is frankly saying something to the effect, well, he is really a screwy nut, or something, he can't find ways to work, something to that effect.

I have not discussed their personal problems. But I have discussed it with my wife about it prior to that and after that and also after the assassination and it was my understanding when she left her husband it was because he had beat her up.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did anybody tell you any of the details about why he had done that or what the cause of the trouble was?

Mr. FORD. Not at the time. My wife didn't tell me anything about that. Again, after the assassination, she told me more about it, but I don't know if Marina had mentioned this prior to the assassination, the year before that when she stayed at our house, or whether she mentioned it after the assassination, I don't know the exact time that these details were brought out.

My wife did mention that perhaps Marina antagonized him by arguing with him, talking back to him, or something like that whereas if she just learned to be quiet when he said something he might not have hit her.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you don't recall whether that was developed during or at the time or later on?

Mr. FORD. I don't remember whether she told me that before the assassination or not. I know we have talked about it since the assassination.

Mr. LIEBELER. When was the next contact that you had with the Oswalds?

Mr. FORD. The next contact was after Christmas 1962. Between Christmas and New Year's we gave a cocktail party and some friends of ours, George De Mohrenschildt and his wife were invited and later called my wife and asked her if it would be all right to bring Lee and Marina to the party and my wife said sure, bring them along or might have asked me if it was all right to bring them along and I said sure. It was prior to December 28.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald come with De Mohrenschildt?

Mr. FORD. Yes, he came with De Mohrenschildt.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know anything about the relations between Oswald and the De Mohrenschildts?

Mr. FORD. I knew they were friends, no more than that. How often they saw each other or what they talked about or anything they talked about I don't know.

Mr. LIEBELER. How old are the De Mohrenschildts?

Mr. FORD. I guess George De Mohrenschildt is between 50 and 55 years old.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did it seem curious to you that a man that age would be close to Lee Oswald who was around 21 or 22 at that particular time?

Mr. FORD. Not in the particular case.

Mr. LIEBELER. Why do you say that?

Mr. FORD. Well, George De Mohrenschildt has a reputation for being a left-wing enthusiast or something, I don't mean a member of the Communist Party, but he is, I have heard other people say he has expounded the ideals of Marxism and since Lee Oswald was supposedly a Marxist or a Communist they would agree on their political views.

Again, I have never heard George De Mohrenschildt expound on any of these ideas. I have met him socially several times and he is very pleasant, a big, good looking man, but other than their agreement on what is the ideal political system, I can't think of anything else they would have in common.

Mr. LIEBELER. Your knowledge of De Mohrenschildt's political views are hearsay?

Mr. FORD. All of it is hearsay.

Mr. LIEBELER. How did you learn about Oswald's political views?

Mr. FORD. Also hearsay, from other people.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us who told you about it?

Mr. FORD. I can't remember anybody, any specific statement from anybody, but I have discussed it with people like both my wife and George Bouhe and I don't remember if I discussed it with the Mellers or not but it seems I have heard this from several different people about just about everybody who knew them, the Oswalds, this was one of the things that people were leary about in dealing with him was his reputation for being a Communist.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he have that reputation in the community?

Mr. FORD. Yes, I think he had that reputation of either--not being a member, say, of the Communist Party, but his political ideas were either Marxist or Communist or something he had derived from reading Karl Marx, I suppose.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether he expressed any extreme antagonism or antagonism of any sort toward the Government of the United States?

Mr. FORD. The only occasion I know of was the first time I met him, he did blame the U.S. Embassy for delaying his exit, the exit of he and his wife from Russia.

He did state if it had not been for their delaying the exit visa that his daughter would have been born in the United States rather than Russia.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he say anything more about that, do you remember any more in detail?

Mr. FORD. Not that I heard of or can remember.

Representative FORD. Did he think the birth of his daughter in Russia rather than in the United States was something important, did it appear that way?

Mr. FORD. I don't know how important he thought it was. It actually started as a joke. We also had a baby born shortly before that and I said, "Pretty little Russian girl" or something like that, and he made a statement, "She is just as much a Texan as your son," and then went on to explain that if the U.S. Embassy had acted more quickly that he and Marina could have left Russia and that June, the daughter, would have been born in the United States.

I don't know whether he placed any great importance on it or not.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever appear to you to have any kind of a sense of humor?

Mr. FORD. None whatsoever.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he say anything about the attitude the Russian authorities took when he wanted to come back to the United States and bring his wife back with him?

Mr. FORD. He never said anything to me. I think he may have while he was talking Russian with these other people. He may have mentioned the fact that it was easier, they got their visa for he and his wife from the Russian authorities, the delay came from the American authorities, but I don't specifically know whether it did. He said these things, again it would be hearsay, again I would have heard it from my wife or somebody else who could speak Russian who had either discussed it with him or was present when he was discussing it with somebody else.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear Oswald or hear of Oswald making any remarks that would indicate a hostility toward President Kennedy?

Mr. FORD. No; never did.

Mr. LIEBELER. What about Governor Connally?

Mr. FORD. Never heard that either, until after the assassination. I saw newspaper copies of a letter he wrote to Governor Connally when Governor Connally was Secretary of the Navy.

Mr. LIEBELER. I would limit my question to before the assassination?

Mr. FORD. Before the assassination, no.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear anything about his military career prior to the assassination?

Mr. FORD. No; in fact I had assumed prior to the assassination that he had had an honorable discharge from the Marine Corps.

Mr. LIEBELER. You never had any discussions with him about that or heard anybody discussing it?

Mr. FORD. He said something the first time I met him, I can't specifically remember what it was, but I got the impression that, at that time that he had been a Marine Corps guard at the U.S. Embassy in Russia and I can't remember whether he said this or somebody else mentioned it or whether I just assumed it on my own.

So I know my first idea was this was the way he had gotten to Russia. I later learned he had gone on his own.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you don't remember any specific discussion with him about this question?

Mr. FORD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know where Oswald was living during this period that his wife was separated from him and living with you and Mrs. Meller?

Mr. FORD. I knew he had an apartment in this Oak Cliff section of Dallas. I don't remember the exact address. I don't know whether he stayed there while Marina was in our house or not.

Mr. LIEBELER. You had no knowledge where he lived prior to the time that he took the apartment in Oak Cliff, did you?

Mr. FORD. Well, I think he lived in Fort Worth. I am not absolutely sure. I believe this apartment in Oak Cliff was the first place he lived in Dallas, but I am not absolutely sure about it.

Mr. LIEBELER. You had never talked to him about it?

Mr. FORD. No; never.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever visit the apartment?

Mr. FORD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, had we gotten to the Christmas party?

Mr. FORD. You asked me about it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us as best as you can recall the events of that period. I think you said there was a party at your house on the 28th of December.

Mr. FORD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Tell me if there were parties or get-togethers at which you were present or of which you knew at other homes during that period.

Mr. FORD. Well, there were, but I don't remember the specific dates that they were. I think they were after the party at our house. There was a party at George Bouhe's home, an apartment, during that period. I think it was a few days after that, right in the period of New Year's Eve, and I went to several celebrations.

I would hate to try to recall exactly when each one of them was and who was there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember going to George Bouhe's apartment?

Mr. FORD. Yes; I remember going there but I don't remember the exact date that it was.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was Oswald at that meeting?

Mr. FORD. No; he was not.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any discussion of Oswald at that time?

Mr. FORD. Not that I can remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were there any other parties that you attended during that period?

Mr. FORD. I don't remember any formal parties. I stopped and had drinks with a lot of people.

Mr. LIEBELER. Specifically, was there a get-together at your home the night after the party that you had on the 28th of December?

Mr. FORD. Not a formal party, just a group of people happened to show up and we started another party.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who was there?

Mr. FORD. Mr. and Mrs. Sullivan, friends of ours from New Orleans, and Mr. and Mrs. Harris who were from Georgetown, Tex., and another Mr. and Mrs. Ray, not the ones who live in Dallas, but these live in Paris, Tex.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would that be Mr. and Mrs. Thomas Ray?

Mr. FORD. Thomas Ray.

Mr. LIEBELER. Thomas Ray. And yourself and your wife?

Mr. FORD. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Anybody else?

Mr. FORD. Right now I can't remember anybody else who came in. It was not a formal gathering, just people happened to stop in and we started having a party.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection of any discussion of Oswald at that time?

Mr. FORD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember at any time having any discussion with any of your Russian friends on the question of whether or not Oswald was a Russian agent?

Mr. FORD. Prior to the assassination?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes, sir.

Mr. FORD. No; I don't remember prior to the assassination. There may have been some but I don't remember any.

Mr. LIEBELER. At the party at your home on the 28th of December, did you have any conversation with Oswald?

Mr. FORD. Said "hello, how are you," to he and Marina, and after that, I can't remember Oswald talking to anybody there except one guest, a Japanese girl, Yaeko, I forget her last name; my wife will remember.

As nearly as I can remember she was the only person in the whole party that he ever bothered to talk to.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether Oswald was drinking that evening?

Mr. FORD. I fixed one drink for him, in a little liqueur glass full of liqueur. As far as I remember he never touched it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever observe Oswald smoking?

Mr. FORD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you don't remember any discussion about Oswald after he left that evening?

Mr. FORD. No; after he left that evening, I don't recall any discussion of him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have any conversations with De Mohrenschildt about Oswald?

Mr. FORD. I don't remember any specific conversations with George De Mohrenschildt. I may have.

Mr. LIEBELER. What was your impression of Oswald at this time as far as his relations with the other members of the Russian community were concerned, and generally?

Mr. FORD. My impression was that he didn't want his wife to associate with them, and that he resented any aid or help people tried to give either he or his wife. I might say, I know, I have heard other Russian people there, for example, would take Marina to a grocery store and buy a load of groceries for her and take her back, and one girl that went by and found the baby had a fever and nobody was taking it to the hospital and she took Marina and the baby to the hospital for some medical treatment for it, and I had the impression that Lee Oswald resented this.

Mr. LIEBELER. You gained that impression from conversations that you had?

Mr. FORD. From conversations with other people, yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is there any----

Mr. FORD. I was also going to say----

Mr. LIEBELER. Pardon me.

Mr. FORD. I think during the period of 1962 that George Bouhe, for example, thought it would be helpful for Marina to learn English and he tried to encourage her to learn English and I had heard later that Lee Oswald resented this, he didn't want her to learn English.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did you hear that?