Part 47

Mrs. FORD. Well, frankly, I got an idea that Mrs. Paine came there to convince Marina to write a book with Mr. Levine who is rather persistent about it at the moment. He wants to start writing a book before Marina finishes with her lawyer and attorney--and her manager. She knows and she is advised by her attorney now not to do it before it is finished, and I think Mrs. Paine tried to talk her into it.

Mr. LIEBELER. They didn't discuss anything about the assassination or Mrs. Oswald's testimony before the Commission?

Mrs. FORD. No; I did not hear it.

Mr. LIEBELER. So far as you heard.

Did Marina ever tell you anything about the trip to Mexico that Lee Oswald took?

Mrs. FORD. Well, let's see. I think she was saying something about it that she did not mention to the FBI but she mentioned it to the Commission. She did say that. And that the FBI wanted to talk with her, that was the reason they wanted to come back again and talk with her. They came to my house quite often during the time she stayed at my house and talked with her, and she said that was the subject, and they asked her why she did not say it to start with, and she said well, she had begun to get tired of the FBI and she didn't like to talk with them.

Mr. LIEBELER. The FBI had been interviewing her while she stayed at your place?

Mrs. FORD. That is right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you been present at any of those interviews?

Mrs. FORD. No; unless they needed--no; I was not present.

Mr. LIEBELER. You were present at an FBI interview at Mr. McKenzie's office at one time?

Mrs. FORD. At Mr. McKenzie's office, that is right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was there a translator present when the FBI interviewed Marina?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; there is at the moment.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know his name?

Mrs. FORD. Mr. Gopadze.

Mr. LIEBELER. Has Marina discussed with you the questions that the FBI has been asking her?

Mrs. FORD. No; except this particular Mexican trip.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you anything about the details of that trip?

Mrs. FORD. On that trip--she did not go into details of the trip; but certain things about--she asked Lee to bring her a bracelet and he didn't, things like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she say anything about a desire that Lee Oswald had to go to Cuba?

Mrs. FORD. Well, this is something that she talked about but I don't remember how--she said he wanted to actually go to Cuba. He wanted to get a visa to go to Russia but he would go to Russia by the way of Cuba, and she thought that he would stay in Cuba and not go to Russia.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina tell you what she was supposed to do when Oswald was in Cuba.

Mrs. FORD. Frankly, I don't know. I know that subject was discussed one time but I either had to go diaper the baby or something. I just cannot say--I know she tried to talk on this subject to Mr. Levine once and she explained it. It was a rather complicated sort of a thing and I cannot explain it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she express any fears that Oswald was going to leave her and go to Cuba and abandon her.

Mrs. FORD. There was a possibility--something she would stay here or something, and for a while, and we were asking her well, how did she intend to live while he was gone, and she thought, well, she said, well, Lee said, "You have a lot of Russian friends and they will help you," while he is not here, that was the conversation.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina ever speak of any plans that Oswald had to hijack an airplane and go to Cuba?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; she said something like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did she say?

Mrs. FORD. Well, that was again, I believe she was discussing with Mr. Levine at the time about this Cuba and this airplane. It is again complicated, I don't think I can say it to make sense, somehow that he had to go, had to have enough gasoline or something to go there, not to make a stop anywhere. I could not say it to make any sense. I know she was talking about it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever talk to Robert Oswald about the assassination?

Mrs. FORD. No; we we never discussed it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Robert Oswald never expressed to you any thoughts that he had on Lee Oswald's guilt or innocence?

Mrs. FORD. I understand he didn't like the cover of Life magazine and I was rather surprised because it was in my mind like it seems there is no question. Nobody knows very sure but I feel like it was Lee that did it. And he was rather angry about the statement there that it was a gun with which the President was killed, and he was rather angry about that cover, and that is why I thought that maybe he didn't believe that Lee killed him.

Mr. LIEBELER. That is the only discussion you had with Robert Oswald?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; that is the only one, that is right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you talked to Marina about any rifle practice that Lee Oswald may have engaged in?

Mrs. FORD. I didn't discuss it with him but she said that she didn't think that he went to a rifle practice. She told me that about a lot of things that people would say that it was not true, she thought that she didn't think it was true about Lee being at practice.

Mr. LIEBELER. In Grand Prairie you are referring to?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; that is right.

Mr. LIEBELER. In Grand Prairie?

Mrs. FORD. That is right. She didn't think he was doing that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she say anything about him practicing with the rifle any place else?

Mrs. FORD. No; she didn't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she mention that he had practiced with the rifle at Love Field?

Mrs. FORD. She didn't say anything.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina ever say anything to you that indicated she wanted to go back to Russia?

You said before that she told Lee Oswald that if he wanted to go back to Russia he could go but she wasn't going to go.

But did she ever indicate to you at any time she wanted to go back to Russia?

Mrs. FORD. She did not. Again the first call after the assassination she asked me, she said, "You know I have a visa, a pending visa, to go to Russia and if they will send it to me, I may have to go." I sort of answered her, I am pretty sure they wouldn't send her a visa now so she doesn't have to worry about it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Yesterday afternoon we discussed some of these things, did we not?

Mrs. FORD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned the fact that Marina Oswald had told you that at one time she was thinking about committing suicide?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; she mentioned that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us about that.

Mrs. FORD. She said she didn't want to have it published anywhere, she is rather ashamed of it. But there was a time after all the--I think it was before she went to New Orleans and before she lived at Paine's house, that there was a time that she didn't have any friends, all the Russian friends left her, I believe De Mohrenschildts were gone during that time, and that Lee was treating her rather badly at the time and she just felt like she had no way out.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you anything other than that? Did she tell you she actually tried to commit suicide or was it something she was thinking of?

Mrs. FORD. She didn't tell me the particulars but somehow Lee found out what was on her mind because he had beaten her again and told her only crazy people would consider doing a thing like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. She said Lee had found out she had thought of committing suicide?

Mrs. FORD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she ever tell you how he found out?

Mrs. FORD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she indicate to you in any way that she had ever tried to do this?

Mrs. FORD. Well, she didn't tell me the particulars of it, I didn't want to, I mean I just didn't, ask her for all the details about it. But she was saying she was thinking about doing it at a certain time.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, I don't want to press you too hard about it but there is quite a difference between thinking about doing it and actually doing it.

The CHAIRMAN. She didn't hear it, she didn't hear it, did she?

Mr. LIEBELER. That is right.

The CHAIRMAN. All right, that is enough.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you write to Marina at any time after the assassination?

Mrs. FORD. Did I write to her?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mrs. FORD. I sent her a Christmas card; yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Any other letters?

Mrs. FORD. No; no letters.

Mr. LIEBELER. How many times have you been interviewed by the FBI, do you remember?

Mrs. FORD. FBI maybe twice. The first time, soon after the assassination; the same day that Lee Oswald was shot.

Actually we heard by radio, friends of ours had called us, anyone who knew Lee Oswald was supposed to come out and say it and call the FBI or the police. So we called the FBI and we said we did know and we came to the office ourselves and to talk about it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you been interviewed by the Secret Service?

Mrs. FORD. No; I don't think so.

Mr. LIEBELER. In our conversation yesterday we discussed your testimony and reviewed these matters. Is there anything you can remember that we discussed at that time that we have not talked about here now?

Mrs. FORD. I don't remember. I don't know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is there any other information that you have that you think the Commission would like to know about that we don't have relating to the assassination?

Mrs. FORD. I don't think there is anything of importance that you don't know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any papers relating to these matters other than I think you mentioned a copy of the letter that you translated for the American Civil Liberties Union, other than that paper, do you have any papers that might relate to these questions I asked you?

Mrs. FORD. No; I might have a copy of the letter that Marina was writing for----

Mr. LIEBELER. To Governor Connally?

Mrs. FORD. To Governor Connally, and it is just rather a translation in my own handwriting.

Mr. LIEBELER. On this point about the rifle practice, did Marina tell you simply that he did not practice at the range at Grand Prairie or he did not practice at any place with the rifle?

Mrs. FORD. I think she was talking about the particular range.

Mr. LIEBELER. Particularly Grand Prairie?

Mrs. FORD. That is right.

Mr. LIEBELER. And she didn't say anything about any other practice?

Mrs. FORD. She was telling me that people were--supposedly saw him in San Antonio and she knew for sure he wasn't there, and then she was saying they saw him at Grand Prairie practicing and she thought that he wasn't there, and then again in Ruby's place and she knew sure that Lee would never go to a place like that, things like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. I have no further questions.

The CHAIRMAN. Congressman Ford, do you have some questions for Mrs. Ford?

Representative FORD. Mr. Chief Justice, I have one or two.

The CHAIRMAN. Proceed, please.

Representative FORD. Did Marina Oswald ever tell you about her schooling in Russia?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; she did. I think that would be a junior college here. She would finish 7 or 8 years, I don't know exactly, and then I think it is 4 years in a junior college which would make her in my opinion an assistant pharmacist.

Representative FORD. In other words, she went to the regular----

Mrs. FORD. School, yes.

Representative FORD. Primary school?

Mrs. FORD. That is right.

Representative FORD. Following that she went on to a secondary school.

Mrs. FORD. You don't have to finish primary school. Russian High School is 10 years, and if you want to specialize in some sort of assistant or technical work you would finish 7 or 8 years and then you would go 4 years after that, it is a finishing technical school, whether you would call it, where you would actually finish high school and at the same time you acquire some sort of a profession or technician, assistant to engineer or in this case assistant to a pharmacist.

Representative FORD. But those were the only schools that she has ever indicated to you that she attended?

Mrs. FORD. I think so, that is right.

Representative FORD. Did she ever indicate to you the participation that she had in the Komsomol.

Mrs. FORD. She said that she did join it and then she was kicked out or something.

Representative FORD. Did she ever give you any reason why she was kicked out?

Mrs. FORD. She told me that one time but I don't--I have forgotten the reason, I really don't remember.

Representative FORD. Was it an ordinary thing for a person to be kicked out of the Komsomol, so far as you know?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; I believe you have to be the sort, if you join it you have to perform your duty, you have to go the meetings and be sort of a leader in the community or in school or take on their work so if you don't do that, I think they just consider you not being a good young Komsomol. They wouldn't keep you there.

Representative FORD. Did Marina ever tell you that she did or didn't join the Communist Party in the Soviet Union?

Mrs. FORD. She couldn't join it.

Representative FORD. Why couldn't she join it?

Mrs. FORD. Well, not from my own experience but from what I know about it, I think you have to be over 20 years and you have to be 5 years, you have a 5-year waiting period until they check your background and see if you are good enough person to get by their standards to join the Party.

Representative FORD. Did Marina ever discuss with you any schools or training programs that Lee participated in while he was in the Soviet Union?

Mrs. FORD. No; she never has said anything of that sort. I think she said one time that they wanted to send him to a school which would give him a profession but it had nothing to do with military or anything like that but somehow he didn't go there. But I have forgotten what he had to be so he was just working regular labor in the factory.

Representative FORD. You don't recall anything, any details?

Mrs. FORD. I don't recall any details of the school.

Representative FORD. You don't recall any of the details of the kind of school?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; but it was some sort of a civilian, it had nothing to do with military or espionage or anything like that that I remember.

Representative FORD. At the time that Marina and June stayed with you and your husband in October or November of 1962, did Lee Oswald visit her at your home?

Mrs. FORD. No. He did not.

Representative FORD. He called her?

Mrs. FORD. He called on the telephone.

Representative FORD. Did anyone else visit her while she was staying at your home on this occasion?

Mrs. FORD. On this occasion, I think the only person who visited was Anna Ray to whom she was to go later after she stayed with me.

Representative FORD. Excuse me, I didn't hear you.

Mrs. FORD. Anna Ray, that is another Russian-born person to whom Marina would go from my house, she came to visit her.

Representative FORD. The individual who kept Marina after she left you?

Mrs. FORD. That is right, that is correct.

Representative FORD. And his name was what?

Mrs. FORD. Her name.

Representative FORD. What is the name?

Mrs. FORD. Anna Ray.

Representative FORD. That is the only person who visited Marina during this period?

Mrs. FORD. At my house; yes.

Representative FORD. I would like to clarify the time and the circumstances of this discussion you had with Marina about the Nixon affair.

Mrs. FORD. Yes.

Representative FORD. You had gone to Mr. McKenzie's office with Marina?

Mrs. FORD. That is right. I had gone translating for her; yes.

Representative FORD. You were in Mr. McKenzie's office?

Mrs. FORD. Yes.

Representative FORD. With Marina. Who else was there?

Mrs. FORD. And at that time she had a date with the FBI, and we were doing, I was translating some legal work for her about dismissing her old attorney and manager and the FBI called me to come later after we finished with that, and they told Marina why they wanted to talk with her, and McKenzie took us in that other office and he asked Marina about that, and told her that that is what she had to talk about, and she was really angry. She said the thought Robert had said, I mean she did not tell anybody about it, and she didn't want to talk about it, and now she has to talk about it to the FBI since Robert mentioned it.

Representative FORD. In this meeting there was Mr. McKenzie?

Mrs. FORD. That is right. Mr. McKenzie, Marina and I.

Representative FORD. Just the three of you?

Mrs. FORD. Yes.

Representative FORD. In a room in Mr. McKenzie's office?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; in one of the rooms in his office.

Representative FORD. And Mr. McKenzie said what?

Mrs. FORD. Oh, I think that maybe--frankly, I don't know what he was telling her.

Representative FORD. Was this meeting only about the Nixon affair?

Mrs. FORD. I am very sorry, but I think that during that time when we were talking about that it was when he was talking about General Walker, that he was--it was not about Nixon that they talked about.

Representative FORD. This meeting with Mr. McKenzie, when Marina and you were discussing matters----

Mrs. FORD. That was about General Walker.

I think Mr. McKenzie didn't know what they would talk about but he advised her "They will ask you if there were two guns, you tell them there was one gun that was used," he told her.

Representative FORD. One gun used where?

Mrs. FORD. For Walker, I mean the same one they had at the house or something, frankly this is what I had----

Representative FORD. I think you just said at the outset of this meeting the prime purpose or the principal purpose was to discuss the Walker affair.

Mrs. FORD. Yes; that is right.

Representative FORD. How did the Nixon affair come up?

Mrs. FORD. I just can't recollect how.

Representative FORD. Did McKenzie raise the question or did Marina raise it?

Mrs. FORD. How it was raised, I didn't get to discuss it with her about the particulars about it, except one time in the car, I don't remember how it came up and I was asking well how did that happen, and she was rather hesitating to talk about it, but she said, "Well, I locked him in the bathroom, and he was screaming or something, he was wanting to get out", and she tried to talk him out of it and he said, "if you are going to keep me in here just let me have a book to read", and I told her how did he get out later, she said, "Well, he rather cooled off and I talked him out of it."

Representative FORD. You say this conversation took place in the car?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; this conversation right now took place in the car but I don't know how it got started, I have forgotten.

Representative FORD. When you say it took place in the car, was it in the car going from Mr. McKenzie's to your home?

Mrs. FORD. That is right, to my home. She was staying at my place at this time.

Representative FORD. Did she talk rather freely about this Nixon----

Mrs. FORD. She didn't talk about it freely, I thought she was rather hesitant about going into particulars.

Representative FORD. Did she ever indicate why she had not discussed this incident with anybody, including the Commission?

Mrs. FORD. Well, right during that time, just before that, in the office, Mr. McKenzie, and I told her before that, "if you know anything that I think that would help either the Commission or the FBI I thought it my duty to tell them," and I told her that if she doesn't want me to say to anybody just don't talk to me about it, that is what I told her.

But because and maybe that is why she was hesitating to talk to me, Mr. McKenzie told it to her and had a written statement to her, too, if he feels there is anything he will have to say he will say it in connection with the President.

So it was said right before that, and I feel maybe that is why she was hesitating to talk to me.

Representative FORD. That is all.

The CHAIRMAN. Mrs. Ford, you are an American citizen now, aren't you?

Mrs. FORD. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. How did you acquire it, by marriage to your first soldier husband?

Mrs. FORD. No. I had to apply for it.

The CHAIRMAN. Where were you naturalized?

Mrs. FORD. In Dallas, Tex.

The CHAIRMAN. In the Federal court?

Mrs. FORD. That is correct.

The CHAIRMAN. When was that about?

Mrs. FORD. I have it on my bracelet, so I will give you the correct time, I got it in 1952.

The CHAIRMAN. In 1952?

Mrs. FORD. This I got on "This is Your Life". I was on "This is Your Life".

Representative FORD. Mr. Chairman, I have one or two more questions.

The CHAIRMAN. Go right ahead.

Representative FORD. I wish you could clarify, if you can, the comment you made about Marina mentioning two guns.

Mrs. FORD. She did not mention two guns ever to me or anything like that. But I don't know how or why he advised her to say that at all, I don't know, it was not clear to me.

Representative FORD. When you say he, was that Mr. McKenzie?

Mrs. FORD. That is right, because the only reason--the only thing I remember about Marina was saying that Lee had laughed about the attempt to kill General Walker, that he said that they were even too stupid to find out what gun was used to kill him because it was written up a different type of gun was used other than the one really used by Lee.

Representative FORD. Marina said that?

Mrs. FORD. That is right. Lee had commented on that they were not even smart enough to identify the gun by a bullet.

Representative FORD. When did Marina say Lee said that?

Mrs. FORD. Well, soon after he--maybe that evening or the next day but I mean after he had attempted to shoot the General.

Representative FORD. After he had attempted to shoot General Walker?

Mrs. FORD. That is right. And the bullet was found in the room and I suppose by the bullet they had tried to identify the gun or whatever he used to shoot him and it was identified wrong.

It was not, I don't know what kind of gun he used, frankly, I don't know, but he said, he just made a comment, they weren't even smart enough to identify the gun by the bullet.

Representative FORD. Lee said that to Marina?

Mrs. FORD. To Marina, that is right.

Representative FORD. Right after the incident?

Mrs. FORD. Right after the incident, that is correct.

Representative FORD. And Marina told Mr. McKenzie that?

Mrs. FORD. I don't know.

Representative FORD. You don't know?

Mrs. FORD. But I think right after that it was in the papers that a different type of gun was used, and to shoot the President was different again, there were supposedly two guns, you see, so maybe that is why he advised her, that he had only one gun. I really don't know how this came out.

The CHAIRMAN. That is all. Thank you very much for coming, you have been very helpful.

Mrs. FORD. I hope so. I frankly wish I had questioned her more but I didn't feel it was my duty, but I wanted to tell you what she said to me.

The CHAIRMAN. We will take a short recess.

(Short recess.)

TESTIMONY OF DECLAN P. FORD

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Ford, you were given a copy of this statement were you?

Mr. FORD. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. As to the purpose so you understand what we are doing here today?

Mr. FORD. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Will you please rise. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. FORD. I do.

The CHAIRMAN. Be seated please and Mr. Liebeler will ask the questions.

Mr. LIEBELER. Will you state your name, sir?

Mr. FORD. Declan P. Ford.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live?

Mr. FORD. Dallas, Tex.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is your employment?

Mr. FORD. I am a consulting geologist.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you independently employed?

Mr. FORD. Yes; I am self-employed.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you give us a brief statement of your educational background?