Part 45

Mrs. FORD. No; I have never been at their apartment, and she couldn't tell me. I know she lived in Oak Cliff, the Dallas section about southwest, I believe.

Mr. LIEBELER. In Dallas?

Mrs. FORD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know whether Marina had lived with a lady in Fort Worth before they came to Dallas?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; I know they stayed there but I didn't talk to her during the time and I didn't visit her. I know she stayed at Elena Hall's house and I think Elena had an accident just before that and she was--she stayed in bed most of the time. Marina was helping her out.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you had only seen Lee Oswald, up to this week that Marina came to live with you, one time, is that correct?

Mrs. FORD. That is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. That was the Meller's luncheon party?

Mrs. FORD. That is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you surprised on the basis of any judgment you might have made of Lee Oswald to learn that he had beaten his wife?

Mrs. FORD. Just from seeing him once I would not have made--no; that he has beaten his wife; no, I didn't think at that time. I did, when she came in after I learned that he has beaten her, I was rather--I remember the bruises on her face and that rather made signs to me that he did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did it surprise you that he would have done this?

Mrs. FORD. No; it did not surprise me. I just felt that young man as he was, if he was--decided to go to Russia after living in a country like the United States, I didn't feel he was very, what shall I say, how would you say, a person's mind won't work at this time----

The CHAIRMAN. Unstable?

Mrs. FORD. Unstable, that is how I felt. I felt a person like that, I felt frankly could do anything.

Representative FORD. Did she ever tell you that Lee Oswald was the cause of these bruises on her face?

Mrs. FORD. Well, she did tell me after she came to the house to stay with me.

Representative FORD. That is what I mean?

Mrs. FORD. That is right.

Representative FORD. The bruises you saw on her face at the house she told you Lee Oswald was the cause?

Mrs. FORD. Yes, that is right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let's clarify that a little. Did Marina Oswald have any bruises at the time she came to live in your house in November 1962?

Mrs. FORD. No; that is right. But she stayed at Anna Meller's house for a week and when she came to Anna Meller's house I heard there were bruises at that time.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Anna Meller tell you that?

Mrs. FORD. Either Anna Meller or George Bouhe told me that. I don't remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you yourself did see bruises on her face the first time?

Mrs. FORD. I did see the first time; yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you that Lee Oswald had given her those bruises?

Mrs. FORD. That is right.

Mr. LIEBELER. She told you that when she stayed with you?

Mrs. FORD. That is right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us the circumstances under which Marina left your home in November of 1962, where she went and what happened?

Mrs. FORD. Well, she stayed with me a week, and my husband came home on Saturday, and we discussed with another friend of mine for Marina to go to her house and stay there as long as she wanted, and I think Sunday morning this friend of mine, Anna Ray, came with a station wagon and picked all her things up, her playpen she had for baby, and diapers and things, and took her to her house and I believe my husband was with her, too, at that time and that is how she left.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, do you know how long she stayed with the Rays?

Mrs. FORD. With the Rays. I think she just stayed there, she had had dinner there, I believe she stayed one afternoon. I don't know how soon Lee came there but he came soon over to the house, but Marina said he cried and begged her to return, he would be nothing, if she didn't return, he would be finished, that is what he was telling her, and she said she just couldn't say, no to him.

Mr. LIEBELER. So she returned to Oswald at that time?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; she returned to Oswald.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever talk with the Mellers about their experiences with Marina when she lived at their house for that time?

Mrs. FORD. No; I don't remember, she did not discuss it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you remember or did you know where Lee Oswald was living prior to the time that Marina came to Dallas?

Mrs. FORD. No; I don't know where he lived at any time.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know where he was working at that time or if he was working at all?

Mrs. FORD. During the time they lived in Dallas, I believe, I don't know exactly, though, either George Bouhe or Anna Meller's husband found him a job in a printing shop, I think, or I believe it is printing shop, somewhere in Oak Cliff, and that is why they had an apartment there. I remember that is the reason because George Bouhe was rather mad at Marina for taking an apartment in Oak Cliff because it was too far for him to drive and help her when she needed help and the baby, I think he was taking her to the dentist and taking the baby to a doctor to help her in ways that she couldn't do herself.

Representative FORD. Who was doing this driving?

Mrs. FORD. I believe George Bouhe did this. He has the car.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where does Mr. Bouhe live?

Mrs. FORD. He lives, well, I don't know his address now. I know where he lives but I don't know the street number.

Mr. LIEBELER. But it is not in the Oak Cliff Section of Dallas?

Mrs. FORD. No; it is not. I think it would be in the east part of Dallas.

Mr. LIEBELER. During the time that Marina stayed with you, did she say anything to you about Lee Oswald's political beliefs or his attitudes concerning politics?

Mrs. FORD. No; she didn't talk to me about that and I didn't ask her.

Frankly, I didn't talk with Lee about that, I didn't feel the need of it myself to discuss politics with him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss that subject with any of your friends?

Mrs. FORD. Well, yes. They were telling me, those friends that went to his apartment, were telling me, that they have seen books like Karl Marx open in front of him, just lying there on the table, that he didn't even hide it when someone came in, and then someone else said there was a book laying there of How to Be a Spy, laying right open there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember who told you that?

Mrs. FORD. I believe it was Lydia Dymitruk.

Mr. LIEBELER. D-y-m-i-t-r-u-k.

Do you remember anything about that particular conversation?

Mrs. FORD. Well, she was telling me, she took, when the baby left my house, she had a cold, and it was getting worse, and I believe soon after she left Anna Ray, the baby began to have a fever, and Lydia, I believe, I don't know how she got to go to her apartment, really, I don't know the reason she went there; she went there and wanted to take the baby to the doctor and she told me of an incident that says even Marina was ashamed of Lee because when she took her to the hospital Lee was lying about that he didn't have a job at the time, which Lydia knew that he did have. He didn't want to pay for the services, and people at the hospital was asking him how does he pay for the apartment and he was telling them that, "My friends were helping me," and Marina just said something in Russian that Lydia remembers, "What a liar," you know, behind his back.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she say that so he could hear it?

Mrs. FORD. I think so, because she said it aloud.

Mr. LIEBELER. And she said it in Russian?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; she did.

Mr. LIEBELER. In front of Lydia Dymitruk?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; that is right, and Lydia was rather mad about the whole thing and she said she is not going to help them any more if they are acting that way.

The baby wasn't helped at the hospital. I think the hospital didn't want to take the child because the father couldn't pay, that is what I got, the father couldn't pay for it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see Marina say anything adverse to Oswald in his presence, did she run him down or make fun of him in public so far as you know?

Mrs. FORD. As far as I know, I don't, except the first time, the one time, I would think when she said, "What a liar," in front of him.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know of any other instance when she would have done that?

Mrs. FORD. I don't know of any other instance.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether she ever spoke of his political views before other people or make fun of him?

Mrs. FORD. No; I don't remember except lately I have been talking to her about that and she said she thought of him being young, and she thought she hoped it would pass with years, that he would mature, this is what she was telling me.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you whether or not she discussed politics with him herself? Did she argue with him about anything?

Mrs. FORD. She said she was arguing with him about that. Certainly, in fact, he called her, she was typical American girl, that she is not interested at all in politics, except in the material things that he wasn't interested in. She said she wanted a house and a family and he said, "All the American girls think that way" and he thought he married a different sort of a girl, a Russian girl.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, think back on that week that Marina stayed with you. Is there anything else that happened or is there anything that Marina told you that you think we should know about and about which I haven't already asked you?

Mrs. FORD. I cannot think of it at the time.

Mr. LIEBELER. When was the next contact that you had with the Oswalds'?

Mrs. FORD. It was right after Christmas before New Year's. I believe it was the 28th of December, a Friday. I gave, I had, a party for all the friends, and I invited a family by the name of De Mohrenschildt, wife and husband, and Mrs. De Mohrenschildt called me up and asked me if she couldn't bring Marina and her husband over because she was saying it is a shame the way all their Russian friends have forsaken them during that time and they had no place to go and the De Mohrenschildts were the only ones helping them at the time, and I told her I didn't object to it. So she brought them over with them.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was Mr. Bouhe at the party?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; I think so.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. and Mrs. Frank Ray?

Mrs. FORD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. and Mrs. Thomas Ray?

Mrs. FORD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were Elena Hall and her husband there?

Mrs. FORD. I don't remember them being at that party. I don't think so.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were the Mellers there?

Mrs. FORD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned that De Mohrenschildt was there.

Mrs. FORD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And the Oswalds.

Mrs. FORD. That is right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was there a gentleman by the name of Allen A. Jackson at the party?

Mrs. FORD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And his wife?

Mrs. FORD. And his wife.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any conversations or observe any conversations between Marina Oswald and Mr. Jackson?

Mrs. FORD. Marina Oswald, no; I don't think so. I don't think Marina spoke English at the time.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were Mr. and Mrs. Charles Edward Harris at the party?

Mrs. FORD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to Mr. and Mrs. Harris about the party afterward?

Mrs. FORD. I might have.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she mention translating a conversation between Mr. Jackson and Marina Oswald?

Mrs. FORD. No; she did not mention it to me.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you didn't see her doing that?

Mrs. FORD. No; I didn't see her doing that at the party.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any conversation with Lee Oswald at the party that night?

Mrs. FORD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you notice anybody else talking to him?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; I did. I noticed a girl talking to him who was of Japanese descent but I don't remember her name.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was there anything striking about that?

Mrs. FORD. No; I think, the only thing it was that I think he talked to her most of the time and wasn't making any conversation with anyone else.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina comment on that to you?

Mrs. FORD. No; she didn't. But I heard from somebody else that she did comment.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who told you that?

Mrs. FORD. I think George Bouhe again. He always spoke to everybody.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did Mr. Bouhe say about that?

Mrs. FORD. Well, he said something that I asked Marina afterward and she told me that it wasn't true. He said that Lee talked to that Japanese girl like a--it is an expression in Russia to take a bath and then beat themselves with the leaves from a tree, and the leaf would stick to the body, in the wintertime, and so the expression from that, like a leaf sticks to the hot body when you take a bath, you know. Then I suppose Lee struck her as just not saying anything--and I asked Marina and she said he did not do it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any talk at the party about Oswald's experiences in Russia or his marriage to Marina?

Mrs. FORD. During the party?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mrs. FORD. No; I didn't talk to him at all.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you didn't overhear anybody else talking about Oswald's experiences in Russia?

Mrs. FORD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned that the Oswalds came with De Mohrensehildt. Did they go home with De Mohrensehildt?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; they did because Mrs. De Mohrensehildt stated that the lady who stayed with Oswald's child had to leave at 12 o'clock and they left before that.

Mr. LIEBELER. After the Oswalds left the party, was there any discussion about the Oswalds that you can remember?

Mrs. FORD. No; really not. I don't think they made a big impression on that party on anybody.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you fix the date on which your party was held?

Mrs. FORD. The 28th of December.

Mr. LIEBELER. What year?

Mrs. FORD. 1962.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any other party the next day or the day after that?

Mrs. FORD. There were other parties. I don't think that Marina and her husband were present. I don't know if you would call it a party, there was a sort of a get-together at my house afterward because some people stayed over in town for a few days, I think that was the Rays, and the Harrises, and a friend of my husband from Louisiana, Sullivans, stayed there. But they hadn't met Oswald, they came much later after 12 o'clock. So we sort of had a get-together.

Mr. LIEBELER. This would have been the next day?

Mrs. FORD. The next day.

Mr. LIEBELER. On the 29th of December.

Was Mr. Bouhe----

Mrs. FORD. No; Mr. Bouhe wasn't present at that time.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any conversation at that time about Oswald?

Mrs. FORD. I don't remember, 1 don't think so.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember that there was a party or open house at Mr. Bouhe's house on the 29th?

Mrs. FORD. If there was, I wasn't present, I didn't go.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was there a party at Meller's house?

Mrs. FORD. There was a party or luncheon.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you go?

Mrs. FORD. No; I didn't go.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear any conversation during this period of 3 or 4 days about Oswald, anybody speculating about Oswald or discussing his experiences----

Mrs. FORD. No; I think----

Mr. LIEBELER. In Russia?

Mrs. FORD. I think at that time everyone rather--George Bouhe said he was not going to help them any more, he was through, since Marina, he tried to help her very hard, and she did not hold her word about not going back to him. So he said since she went back, so now it is her problem.

Well, he is sort of that type of man, he is trying to help hard and if you are doing what he says otherwise he is not going to help, so that was it. So it was rather, sort of Marina and her husband were dropped at that time, nobody actually wanted to help, and I think what they heard about Lydia Dymitruk was saying that he couldn't help those people. I mean they were just sort of--he couldn't reach them. He was lying in hospital and things, we sort of gave it up.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Lydia make that remark at one of those parties or was that at a previous time?

Mrs. FORD. Oh, that was a previous time. As soon as she left to go back to her husband, George Bouhe even took the Russian dictionary back to him. He told her to give it back and he was just through with him.

Mr. LIEBELER. So far as you know Mr. Bouhe had no more contact with the Oswalds after that?

Mrs. FORD. No; I don't think so.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any conversation with any of your friends in Dallas or Fort Worth on the question of Oswald's ability to leave Russia and come back to the United States and bring Marina with him?

Mrs. FORD. We didn't speculate on that until really later, until now, after the assassination that subject came up, and people asking why they left so soon. He was telling me it took them a year, so I don't know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any conversation prior to the assassination, during this period in 1962, any speculation as to whether Oswald might be an agent of any government?

Mrs. FORD. No. I frankly didn't think he was capable of it. That was my feeling on it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were there any conversations on that?

Mrs. FORD. No. There were not.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember that Mr. Bouhe suggested at one time that Oswald was a mental case?

Mrs. FORD. Mr. Bouhe, he might have; yes, I think we all thought that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember that Mr. Bouhe said that?

Mrs. FORD. I don't remember particularly that he would say that.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you say, "We all thought that"?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; we thought that, that he was rather mentally--you just said the word before.

The CHAIRMAN. Unstable?

Mrs. FORD. Unstable.

Mr. LIEBELER. Unstable.

Why did you think that, Mrs. Ford?

Mrs. FORD. In my own opinion, I just didn't think that a man as young as he was could come to the conclusions just by rather experiences or living a long time in America and I mean studying the whole economic structures of different governments, and things that he would come to the conclusion that is the best thing for him. I think he was just rather too young for that.

I thought he was just rather--something was rather wrong with the man.

Mr. LIEBELER. You based this----

Representative FORD. In the conversation that Oswald had with this Japanese lady at your party, did you overhear any of that conversation?

Mrs. FORD. No; I did not. I did not have time, I was the hostess and I just didn't get to talk to anyone.

Representative FORD. Did you ever ask the Japanese lady what the gist of the conversation was or what the content of the conversation was?

Mrs. FORD. No; I never have. In fact, I have not seen her after that. That was the first time she came to my house. I mean I have seen her later on in the beauty shop but I have never talked to her about it.

Representative FORD. Did she speak English?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; she speaks English well.

Representative FORD. All right.

Mr. LIEBELER. At this get-together that you mentioned at your house on, I think it was the 29th, after the party, the informal get-together, the Rays were there, and the Sullivans, and Mr. and Mrs. Harris.

Would it refresh your recollection if I suggested to you that some of the people that were there at that party said the possibility of Oswald being a Russian agent was discussed in detail at that party in that group?

Mrs. FORD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't remember any of the discussion?

Mrs. FORD. I don't remember any of the discussion.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is there anything other than what you told us that led you to believe that Oswald was unstable or a mental case?

Mrs. FORD. Nothing, except that I was thinking about him myself beating his wife. That would have been one reason. I don't think that any stable man would do that, especially she appeared to me very sick sort of a woman, not sick, but frail and fragile, I think any man who strikes a woman who is incapable of striking back, I would think would be unstable.

Mr. LIEBELER. This Russian group that we have been discussing, Mr. Bouhe and these other people, do they see each other regularly? Is there sort of a Russian community in Dallas, would you say?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; there are about, I think, maybe four families in Fort Worth and maybe half a dozen in Dallas or more than that, but that mainly we see each other, and there is one Eastern Orthodox Church in Russia where that is where we actually meet each other.

Mr. LIEBELER. In Dallas, you mean, or Fort Worth?

Mrs. FORD. Dallas. I am sorry. In Dallas, and we still observe our Eastern Orthodox religion during the holidays and sometimes like Christmas falls 13 days after the American Christmas so there is New Year's sometimes we celebrate those.

Mr. LIEBELER. How well do you know the De Mohrenschildts?

Mrs. FORD. Well, I know George De Mohrenschildt the same, approximately, I will say I was acquainted with him for approximately 14 years but I don't know him well.

Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned before that De Mohrenschildt was the only member of the Russian community that kept on seeing the Oswalds and trying to help them.

Was there any discussion about that among your friends?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; George De Mohrenschildt is rather an odd ball, among Russians anyway, so it was nothing unusual about him doing that. He was always doing something unusual. He would even go to church with shorts on, you know, this is something, he would do something that nobody else would do.

Mr. LIEBELER. Shorts?

Mrs. FORD. Shorts.

Mr. LIEBELER. Short trousers?

Mrs. FORD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any specific conversations about the reasons as to why De Mohrenschildt continued to associate with the Oswalds after the rest of you had given them up.

Mrs. FORD. Well, I remember his wife was telling me like she felt it was their duty now since everybody else dropped them and they needed help.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any conversation with the Oswalds among any of your friends as to whether or not Oswald went hunting in Russia and had access to weapons?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; I think that George Bouhe was telling me that. He was telling him that he was going hunting and he told him about killing ducks or something of that type.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember that in any greater detail?

Mrs. FORD. No; I don't remember it. I only remember that because of the way he was saying, "ducks" in Russian, George was saying that he was using sort of a word when you call for it, it is a small duck rather than for ducks, he was saying that his Russian wasn't perfect.

I mean in that conversation he was using, an example of he was saying, when he would go hunting for ducks, instead of "utki" for ducks he would say "utitschki" that would mean small ducks, and he was saying that his Russian was imperfect.

Mr. LIEBELER. That is Oswald's Russian?

Mrs. FORD. That is right.

Mr. LIEBELER. What about Marina's ability to speak English at that time, did she speak English at that time?

Mrs. FORD. I don't think she did. She could speak a few words but I don't think she did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did any of you attempt to teach her English?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; George Bouhe was attempting to teach her to write and was giving her lessons.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us something about that?

Mrs. FORD. Well, he was telling me that he had gotten her a dictionary and he had--or some other book anyway and he was telling me that every time he saw her, made an attempt to see her I don't know how he did that but anyway he was giving her a lesson and she was supposed to have completed it by the next time in writing.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mr. Bouhe tell you anything about Marina's ability to speak English or write English? Did Marina learn as a result of that?

Mrs. FORD. He said she was doing very well. I don't know if she learned to speak but he said she was a good student.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Lee Oswald ever object to this effort on Mr. Bouhe's part?

Mrs. FORD. Well, he was objecting to anyone of the Russians helping her.

Mr. LIEBELER. Helping her learn English?