Part 44

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know a lady by the name of Earlene Roberts?

Mrs. FORD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mary Bledsoe?

Mrs. FORD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Bertha Cheek?

Mrs. FORD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. John Carter.

Mrs. FORD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. How about Mr. and Mrs. A. C. Johnson?

Mrs. FORD. A. C. Johnson, I don't think so.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know of any connection between Mr. Oswald, Lee Harvey Oswald and Jack Ruby?

Mrs. FORD. No; I don't know. I don't know that they knew each other.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell the Commission, Mrs. Ford, how you first met the Oswalds?

Mrs. FORD. We were invited there after lunch, the Oswalds had a luncheon at Anna Meller's house, and we were invited after luncheon to meet them, and that was our first contact with them.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell me when that was, approximately?

Mrs. FORD. I would say it was approximately at the end of August of 1962.

Mr. LIEBELER. Will you tell us who was at the luncheon?

Mrs. FORD. I believe there was Mr. and Mrs. Ted Meller and George Bouhe and the Oswalds and ourselves, I believe that is all I remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who first told you about the Oswalds? Did you hear of them the first time that you came to that luncheon or had you heard of them before?

Mrs. FORD. I had heard of them maybe a couple of weeks before from Mr. George Bouhe, I believe, who had told us that there was a young Russian girl came to Fort Worth and the man was out of a job, and that was the reason for us to try to help them. And she had a baby and so forth.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mr. Bouhe tell you anything else about the Oswalds?

Mrs. FORD. No; he was just telling that the man was having a very hard time finding a job because the last job he had was in Minsk or so.

Mr. LIEBELER. He told you that Mr. Oswald had been in Russia?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; he did. He told us about that he was in Russia and decided to come back and he brought a Russian wife with him who didn't speak English and had a tiny baby and both were having a very hard time at the moment.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mr. Bouhe tell you anything about the circumstances under which Mr. Oswald went to Russia?

Mrs. FORD. No; nothing like that was discussed.

Mr. LIEBELER. At the luncheon at which you and your husband, and Mr. and Mrs. Meller----

Mrs. FORD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And Mr. Bouhe were present----

Mrs. FORD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What was said at that time?

Mrs. FORD. At the time we were present, actually, I was only interested in economic conditions of Russia at the moment, for me to compare them with the time I was living there, and they were showing some pictures of Minsk and Leningrad and some of the pictures of some of the friends of Marina's friends, girl friends.

(At this point, Representative Ford entered the hearing room.)

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any conversations with the Oswalds at that time about the kind of apartment that they had when they lived in Minsk?

Mrs. FORD. I don't remember any particulars about that apartment, but they were talking about, I think, about the apartment, I don't know exactly what was said about it. I know it was, I think I remember they were saying they lived in one room and sharing a kitchen.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did they tell you how they came to meet each other in Russia and how they came to be married?

Mrs. FORD. It wasn't said at that particular time, but I remember Marina was telling me afterwards how they came to meet each other, and I believe it was at a dance some place at the Hall of Culture or some place they would have in Russia dances, and she met him there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Of the people that were at this luncheon, aside from yourself, how many of them were originally born in Russia?

Mrs. FORD. Mr. Bouhe and I believe and Mr. Meller would be--I believe Ted Meller was born in Poland.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did it appear to you at the time of that luncheon that Lee Harvey Oswald lived like other Russian people lived or did it appear that he might have received preferential treatment in some way.

Did you gather an impression about that during the course of your conversation?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; I believe he was still in something of a hardship in living in Russia, that was the reason for his leaving Russia. That it was rather difficult to make his ends meet as we say, because he was comparing it with his living standards of Marina's uncle who was a colonel or a major, I don't know, I wouldn't say because I don't know. He was saying that they had a very lovely apartment consisting of maybe four or five rooms and he was comparing it with his apartment, and such.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he compare his apartment with the apartment of other workers who worked in Minsk?

Mrs. FORD. No; I don't think so. He was just comparing, I believe with her uncle.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you how much money he was paid at his job?

Mrs. FORD. I don't remember, he was saying or Marina was saying something, 80 rubles, I don't know which one gave me that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate whether that was about the same that other people were paid or more?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; about the same as the workers were paid.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, is there anything else you can remember about that luncheon, the conversation at that luncheon which you would like to tell the Commission about other than what we have already touched on?

Mrs. FORD. Well, I don't know what was important. I know he was saying--my husband made a sort of a joking statement that he had a child born in Russia, and he said, well, if it wasn't for the Americans she wouldn't be born over there because he had to wait so long to get a visa, I don't know what else he said.

Mr. LIEBELER. That was a visa for him to return?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; and the little girl, June, was born there because of that.

Mr. LIEBELER. And Lee Oswald blamed the Americans for causing the delay?

Mrs. FORD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate what attitude the Russian authorities took when he told them he wanted to come back to the United States?

Mrs. FORD. No; I don't know. He didn't say anything. I don't remember discussing it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he say anything about the attitude they took toward letting Marina leave Russia and coming to the United States?

Mrs. FORD. I don't believe anything was said about that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is there anything else you can remember about that luncheon now you think we ought to know about?

Mrs. FORD. Well, I am thinking, I really don't think I remember anything else.

Mr. LIEBELER. What was the next contact then that you had with the Oswalds?

Mrs. FORD. I think it must have been at--in late October or the first part of November when Mr. Bouhe called me and said that Marina made a call to Anna Meller and told her she is leaving her husband because of she can't stand the beating and treatment any longer from Lee Oswald, but none of us knew at the moment that he had mistreated her that way, but at the time at the party I remember seeing Marina with bruises on her face and she made excuses of running into a door or something at the night when attending the baby.

Mr. LIEBELER. This was the first time you saw her?

Mrs. FORD. That is right, the first time I saw her I did see bruises on her face. And George Bouhe was saying that Anna Meller, I don't know who picked her up, I believe George Bouhe because Anna Meller don't have a car, they went to Marina's apartment and picked up the baby things, playpen, and other things that she could take with her at the time, and she stayed there, I couldn't say how many days.

Mr. LIEBELER. Stayed with Mrs. Meller?

Mrs. FORD. With Mrs. Meller, I don't think it was longer than a week, and then my husband was supposed to go away for a week or so; I don't remember the time, I thought he was going--he said he had to go Austin and I told Mr. Bouhe that I could take her for a week, just take her in, if she didn't have a place to go, so I did, and she stayed with me.

Mr. LIEBELER. Why did she come to you as opposed to staying with Anna Meller?

Mrs. FORD. Anna Meller has a small two-room apartment and I have a bigger house. We have four bedrooms so I could make room for her and her children.

Mr. LIEBELER. When Mr. Bouhe called you and told you about this, did he tell you anything about why Marina was leaving Lee Oswald?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; he said because of mistreatment and she decided she is not going to return to him any longer, and Mr. Bouhe said, told her, if she made a promise to him she is not going to return to that man he will help her all he could to find a place to stay permanently such as maybe as help at home at somebody's house until she learns enough English to start going on her own whatever she could do.

And I think he was trying to do, he was trying to find a place and that is the reason before that she needed a place to stay until she did find a place, and I kept her for a week until my husband returned and then another friend of mine, who also has a fairly large place where Marina could be comfortable, she told me she could keep her there for as long as Marina wished to stay.

Mr. LIEBELER. How did Marina actually get to your place? Did Mr. Bouhe bring her to your place?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; he did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know how long Marina stayed with Anna Meller before she came to your place?

Mrs. FORD. It could be a week but I am not sure. But I don't think it is longer than a week.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Lee Oswald come to see Marina while Marina was at your house?

Mrs. FORD. No; he did not but he did talk to her on the telephone, I think approximately after 3 days, after she stayed with me he called her up every night, I think he did call, every evening.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina talk to him on the telephone?

Mrs. FORD. She was hesitating at first but he wouldn't leave the telephone until she came to telephone and she was talking to him. I didn't hear what he was saying but she was telling him not to call on her again and not to bother, she was not going to return to him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you what the conversations were about?

Mrs. FORD. No. She did not say anything.

Representative FORD. When was this period that she stayed with you, October and November of 1963?

Mrs. FORD. I believe it must have been the first part of November.

Representative FORD. Of 1963?

Mrs. FORD. 1962.

Representative FORD. 1962.

Mrs. FORD. That is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did Marina Oswald pay you anything for the privilege of staying at your home at that time?

Mrs. FORD. No; I did not expect it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any arrangement she would work in the house?

Mrs. FORD. No; there was no arrangement; no.

Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us what Marina told you while she was staying there about her relations with Lee Oswald and particularly as to why she separated from him and what the difficulties were in their marriage?

Mrs. FORD. I think mostly it was a mistreatment by him that she couldn't stand any longer, she was saying.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mistreatment by him?

Mrs. FORD. Mistreatment by him; yes. That is what she was saying.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you any more specifically than that what the problem was?

Mrs. FORD. No; she didn't really. She did not elaborate. She did not go into explanations of their living together.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she mention that Lee Oswald was jealous of the Russian friends that Marina had?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; she did. She told me that, that he was.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did they argue about that?

Mrs. FORD. Well, I didn't know if they were arguing about that. I know she said that he was very jealous of them helping Marina and jealous for the reason that he wasn't able to provide her at the time with any of the things that they were giving Marina, clothes, and baby clothes, and I think that he was--it was making him rather mad because he said he was unable to buy the things for her at the time, and I know that he was not accepting things people were giving him. He was telling her not to take them but she was taking them because she needed them. I suppose they were arguing about that but I don't remember the particulars.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an impression at the time that Marina lived with you for that week as to what the cause of their difficulties might be?

Mrs. FORD. She mentioned one time that soon after marriage he told her he didn't love her any more in any way. So I don't know what is the difficulty, I don't know if that is what she mentioned. She did not explain and didn't go into explanations of this.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think, did you form an opinion as to whether this separation and the difficulties they were having was primarily the result of Oswald's behavior or did you think Marina might have been partially responsible for it, what did you think?

Mrs. FORD. My own opinion was that Marina was responsible for it. I think Marina was and I think now she is a rather immature girl.

The CHAIRMAN. She is what?

Mrs. FORD. I think she is rather immature in thinking.

The CHAIRMAN. Oh, yes.

Mrs. FORD. And a lot of times she agreed herself about provoking him in a way by arguing about his mother or things of some sort.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did she tell you about arguments concerning his mother?

Mrs. FORD. Well, I don't know really. She would say something that he was badly brought up or something like that.

Representative FORD. He was what?

Mrs. FORD. Badly brought up, some sort of thing, and he would get mad and slam her for that or something and then he was telling her not to let mother in, and when mother comes to the apartment she would let her in and then they would argue over that.

Representative FORD. He would tell her not to let the mother in?

Mrs. FORD. That is right, and she would because she said she just couldn't do that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina tell you at that time what her feelings toward Lee's mother were?

Mrs. FORD. I don't remember her saying anything one way or the other if she liked her or didn't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether Marina might have mentioned that Lee Oswald had spoken to a neighbor and told the neighbor that Marina was from Czechoslovakia?

Mrs. FORD. No; I don't know of anything like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't know at any time that Oswald didn't want people to know that his wife was from Russia? Marina didn't mention that?

Mrs. FORD. Not around us, we didn't because we knew it anyway.

Mr. LIEBELER. Marina didn't mention anything like that to you?

Mrs. FORD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. When Marina lived with you during that time did she tell you anything about her background in Russia, did she tell you about her birthplace and youth in Russia?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; she was going into more of that in talking with me more than anything else, I think. Actually most of the time she was talking about her friends during, I think about when she was going to school, about her boy friends and things she was talking to me about her friends and she did go into talk about when she lived in, let's see, it is not Ukraine, I think it is Bessarabia, right now where would that place be, to live there, and she was very young, I believe, let's see she was born during the war, and they were sent somewhere, I don't know where they were sent, but then she lived there in Bessarabia for a few years, because there was a lot of food there and vegetables and they were sent there, to feed, like they sent the cattle to be fed up, I believe that is the expression she used after the war where the children could eat a lot of fruit and then she returned to Leningrad, I believe.

I don't know how long she lived in Bessarabia.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did she tell you about her life in Leningrad, just briefly, if you will summarize it for us.

Mrs. FORD. Well, really, I don't know--the only thing I knew was about some of the things she was telling me about friends she had there, she had a friend that was a medical student and she told me she talked a lot on the telephone to him, and she was rather, I thought that is where I made the impression to me, it made an impression to me she was immature, she liked to talk to the man for a long time in the evening but she was afraid to be seen with him in the streets, he was ugly, so I thought it was rather strange, you know, and then----

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you who she was living with in Leningrad?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; she was living with her stepfather, that is what I remember, living with a stepfather she was telling me.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you about her relations with her stepfather?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; she did. She didn't like him and I think he doesn't like her, either; they never did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you any reasons why she did not like him?

Mrs. FORD. She was telling me a lot of times, she was telling me about her mother, the mother didn't want to show affection to Marina or something like that because the father was jealous of that affection, and I think he did some sort of a cruel thing to her once that she doesn't--she still remembers as being very cruel, something of accusing her of taking some family silver and selling it while she knows that he had pawned the silver for buying liquor, because it showed up, she couldn't explain it to her aunt and it just made her feel very bad at that time.

I think she just could never forgive him for that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina tell you about her move to Minsk?

Mrs. FORD. Well, she didn't tell me at that time. I just found it out not too long ago that was the reasons she wanted to get away from a friend that she found out later that he was married, she went with him for a short while she did not know he was married, but she did not go into particulars of explaining the whole thing to me.

Representative FORD. She was going with a man who was married?

Mrs. FORD. Yes. She met him somewhere, she had two tickets, she said, to a theater or to a movie, and she wanted to sell one ticket and he was the person who bought the ticket and they sat together in a movie house and later on, I believe, I don't know how they got to know each other later on, it was a few times they met, they have seen each other and at one time she went to his apartment, to the house that he lived, to call on him, and someone said that, "oh, that is the man who has that little boy," and she said she just turned around and went home. That is the time she found out he was married and was deceiving her.

But I don't know why she left, I mean why, exactly she left but I think this is the person that was her reason for leaving Leningrad.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you that she had left in part at least to get away from this man?

Mrs. FORD. That is what I understood.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did Marina tell you why she married Lee Oswald when she was in Russia, did she talk to you about that?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; she did.

I don't exactly know why she married him. But she said she met him at a dance, and soon after that, I don't know the reason why he was in the hospital but he was in a hospital, and she called on him, and I don't know how long he stayed there, either, and she liked the man, I think, and she bought him an Easter Egg, that was during Easter sometime and he was very surprised that such a thing could be done in Russia.

I think it rather pleased him very well. She said somehow she felt sorry for the man because none of her friends liked him, and mistrusted him, and she felt sort of like she was on the defensive, she wanted to, she felt sorry for him in a way.

Representative FORD. Did she tell you why her friends didn't trust him?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; she said they were thinking that he was an American spy or something like that, that is what they were trying to tell her. "Maybe he is a spy, and how can you trust a man like that?"

She told me the other day, she says no one trusted him, but she says, "I wasn't afraid of him," that is how she put it.

Representative FORD. Did Marina indicate to you whether she thought or had any reason to believe that Oswald was a spy?

Mrs. FORD. No; she didn't. She didn't think so. She never said that, I mean.

Representative FORD. Did Marina ever indicate to you or did you gather that one of the reasons that Marina married Lee Oswald was she had the possibility of leaving the Soviet Union in mind?

Mrs. FORD. Yes. She never did go out directly and say that but I think I got an impression that was her reason. She was telling me that way before she met Oswald she was dreaming of coming over here, and that is, I mean gathering by that later I thought that she wanted to come over, and he was, I suppose he was a reason.

Mr. LIEBELER. In this connection, I wanted to ask you whether you ever had any contact with any newspaper reporters from the Dallas newspapers about this, did they ask you about this at any time?

Mrs. FORD. About this I don't remember if they asked me. I don't remember. But a couple of reporters came to my house soon after the assassination and talked to me.

Mr. LIEBELER. I represent to you that there was a story in the November 27, 1963, issue of the Dallas Times Herald which told about some Russian-born woman in Dallas to whom Marina had supposedly confided some of the most intimate secrets of her stormy marriage, in the words of the newspaper article. Do you have any knowledge whether that would be you or somebody else?

Mrs. FORD. I think that would be me.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell the reporters that Marina had told you that Marina had felt sorry for Oswald because everybody hated him even in Russia?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; I might have said that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Marina did say that to you?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; she did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina tell you anything at this time about their trip back to the United States and the difficulties that they encountered, or how they did it, that sort of thing?

Mrs. FORD. No; I never talked with her about that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any conversation while Marina stayed with you during that week in November 1962, about the possibility of a divorce, of her divorcing Lee Oswald?

Mrs. FORD. The possibility--I know she didn't want to go back to him at the time she stayed with me.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you don't remember any specific conversation?

Mrs. FORD. No; I don't remember any specific conversation.

Mr. LIEBELER. About divorce?

Mrs. FORD. Frankly, there was talk about it, she didn't want to go back and I just told her, I felt that Marina wasn't really the domestic type she could stand very long being a help at home, not that I think she is not capable of taking care of her own house. I see now since she has got even her own place she keeps it very clean and her children are always neat. But she wasn't right for domestic help and I told her to stay with Lee, that is what I told her myself, and wait until she could be able to take care of herself other than working in a house.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did she say about that?

Mrs. FORD. She didn't say, she was really just listening, I think, and she didn't say anything.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina say anything to you at this time about wanting to go back to Russia?

Mrs. FORD. No, no; she didn't want to.

In fact, she told me that Lee soon after he came to the United States, he was telling her that he would want to go back because he couldn't find a job here and he was, of course, seeing a lot of difficulties for himself, and Marina said, "If you want to go back, you can go but I am not going," that is what she told me.

Mr. LIEBELER. Marina told Lee if he wanted to go back he could but she wasn't going to go back to Russia.

Mrs. FORD. That is right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is that all the conversation that you had with her about going back to Russia at that time?

Mrs. FORD. That is right. That is about all.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know where the Oswalds lived at this time when Marina came to the Meller's house and then to your house?