Part 43

Mr. McWATTERS. Just like I say, I guess it never did dawn on me until I just got to thinking about it and everything, and I had this boy, I mean was the one I was referring to in that affidavit right there.

In other words, he was just kind of a slight build, so far as him and Oswald, I guess they probably somewhere in the same size, I don't know. But I was mistaken in that, in other words, that was the boy right there----

Senator COOPER. Did the police ask you if any man other than the teenager was on the bus?

Mr. McWATTERS. I don't recall whether they did or not.

Senator COOPER. Did you tell the police at that time on the 22d or the Federal Bureau of Investigation on the 23d about a man knocking on the window and wanting to get into the bus?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, I believe I did.

Senator COOPER. What is it about this transfer that makes you know that it was a transfer which you issued?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, you look at that old punch mark, I guess as many times as I have punched it----

Senator COOPER. Does each--does each driver have a different punch?

Mr. BALL. When you weren't here he showed us his punch and he punched it for us. He has got his punch.

Mr. McWATTERS. Each driver has a different punch. They all are registered. In other words, regardless of how many there are--that is my punch right there--there is some shape or form different, just like I say the superintendent has every man's name and a punch mark right on down, in other words, so when----

Senator COOPER. Do you know whether the punches are different in the shape that they make?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir; no, sir; I don't know anything about that. I know----

Senator COOPER. What you are saying is, then, you have punched so many of these transfer that you recognize your own punch?

Mr. McWATTERS. I can recognize my own punchmark. I don't think there is supposed to be another----

Senator COOPER. Is there anything else on the transfer which indicates that it was one which would be issued on your bus?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, except only where it is punched--in other words, I come off of Lakewood Boulevard there where that would be the only distinction right there, is the punchmark and the name of where I have it punched there.

Senator COOPER. Did anyone tell you, either the police or the FBI or any other officer or any other person, tell you at the time you made your first affidavit or later that there was another man reported to have been on your bus and got off?

Mr. McWATTERS. I don't recall.

Senator COOPER. Have you ever reported to the police the fact that you have carried as a passenger since November 22d the teenager whom you have now identified as having the name of Milton Jones?

Mr. McWATTERS. Did I ever report it to the police?

Senator COOPER. Yes.

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir.

Senator COOPER. Have they ever been back to talk to you any more about this?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir.

Senator COOPER. About this matter?

Mr. McWATTERS. They have never been back to me. The only time they have talked to me----

Senator COOPER. Did you ever see----

Mr. McWATTERS. I beg pardon?

Senator COOPER. You saw--was any of the men in the police lineup ever identified to you as being Lee Oswald?

Mr. McWATTERS. Any men in the----

Senator COOPER. Yes, I think you saw the men in the lineup, didn't you?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Senator COOPER. Before you were asked to select a man in the lineup, did the police or any officer identify any one of them as bearing the name of Lee Oswald?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir; they never stated anything.

Senator COOPER. Later was he identified to you in any way?

Mr. McWATTERS. Was he identified to me?

Senator COOPER. As being Lee Oswald?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, they didn't tell me as far as saying, mentioning any name Lee Oswald, it was never, the name Lee Oswald, I don't believe was ever mentioned while we was back there.

Senator COOPER. Did you ever see this same man you call No. 2 in the lineup again--did you ever go back there after that time and see this same person again?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir.

Senator COOPER. Identified as No. 2?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir; I never did go back any more, that was the only time I was ever there was the one on November 22, about 6 something in the afternoon.

Senator COOPER. Have you seen photographs of a man who is named in those photographs as being Lee Oswald?

Mr. McWATTERS. Have I saw them?

Senator COOPER. Yes, sir.

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. Well, now, you have seen this young man, Milton Jones, several times since then?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. Now after having seen him several times since then, and having seen these photographs of the man who is identified as Lee Oswald----

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Senator COOPER. Does Milton Jones look like Lee Oswald?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, they both, just like I say, about the same height, and same build, and everything, as far as identifying looking at a man in the face--of course, I know him now, distinctly.

Senator COOPER. But at this time would you identify him as Lee Oswald from the photographs you have seen of Lee Oswald?

Mr. McWATTERS. Right now?

Senator COOPER. Yes.

Mr. McWATTERS. No. At the time, I couldn't then, in other words, even from the recalling of what I seen him then, I mean just to say that the height and size of him, no, I wouldn't make the statement that I could now.

Senator COOPER. Are you certain that you did see some man who knocked on the window of your door of your bus and wanted to get in your bus at some point near Murphy?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; I am positive about that. There was----

Senator COOPER. You saw that man get off later?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Senator COOPER. Before you got to----

Mr. McWATTERS. Before I got to Lamar Street, between Poydras and Lamar.

Senator COOPER. That is all.

Mr. McWATTERS. The best I can remember is that is where I issued two transfers. That is the best I can remember.

Mr. BALL. To clear this matter up with your punch, you have your punch there, have you?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. That was issued to you by the Dallas Transit Company?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Does that make a different mark in a transfer than any other punch issued to any other driver in the Dallas Transit Company?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. It is a distinctive mark?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; it is supposed to be, there is not supposed to be any driver that has a punch that makes a punchmark like my punch.

Mr. BALL. So your supervisor could take this transfer and compare it with his list in his office?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is right.

Mr. BALL. And he could see McWatters issued this transfer?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is right; that is the way, if they have any complaint, any transfers brought in to him, he has a list. When he looked at the punchmark he knows the man's name, and his badge number.

Mr. BALL. And this document here which is 381, you have identified that punchmark as the one made by your punch?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; that punchmark was made by that punch right there.

Mr. BALL. Now, there are on this transfer two punches, there is one in p.m., and there is marked punch Lakewood. Now, the p.m., refers to the time?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. But Lakewood refers to a certain location on your run, doesn't it?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. If this transfer was issued around the Lamar area or St. Paul--Elm area, is there any place that you could punch and show that particular location?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. You always punch at the end of your destination?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, that is the usual procedure on it.

Mr. BALL. Now, on one side of Lakewood is Beckley, where is that?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, that is on the opposite of town from----

Mr. BALL. The other side is Capital. Where is that?

Mr. McWATTERS. Capital, well, Capital is in north Dallas, I believe it is.

Mr. BALL. Are those Beckley lines listed on the transfer on your run?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir; I don't--you mean on the transfer?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, that is, in other words, we all--they have so many of the lines listed, in other words, I believe they have two divisions, I believe all the buses that work out of the east Dallas division have----

Mr. BALL. We can make this pretty simple. You have on this transfer certain names. When you are running Marsalis-Ramona-Elwood-Munger, how many possible punches would--location punches would you make?

Mr. McWATTERS. In other words, if I was--Marsalis when I left the end of Marsalis out there I would punch my transfer Marsalis, if I left the end of Ramona I would punch them Ramona. In other words, that is so they can't ride them, in other words, they can't ride the transfer.

Mr. BALL. Now, Lakewood is at one end of your run?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is right.

Mr. BALL. And Marsalis-Ramona-Elwood is the other, is that right?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. So you would punch one of those names?

Mr. McWATTERS. Going that way, while at Marsalis, I would punch the Lakewood when I would leave Marsalis coming toward Lakewood, I would have Lakewood on the front of my bus but I would punch the transfer Marsalis.

Mr. BALL. I have no further questions.

Representative FORD. Thank you very much, Mr. McWatters.

Mr. McWATTERS. Thank you, gentlemen.

TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM WAYNE WHALEY RESUMED

Mr. BALL. Mr. Whaley. I have here an exhibit which I will mark 370.

(The document was marked Commission Exhibit No. 370 for identification.)

Mr. BALL. 370 is a photostat of a manifest of yours, and it is dated November 22, 1963. I mark this 370. Do you recognize that?

Mr. WHALEY. That is the original trip sheet.

Mr. BALL. In your handwriting?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; in my handwriting.

Mr. BALL. I will offer this into evidence at this time, and the original trip sheet as Exhibit No. 382.

Representative FORD. So admitted.

(Commission Exhibits Nos. 370 and 382 were received in evidence.)

Mr. BALL. I have here a bracelet which is marked 383. Take a look at it and tell me if you have ever seen it before.

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; as near as I can tell that is the bracelet he was wearing the day I carried him, the shiny bracelet I was talking about.

Mr. BALL. You mentioned the fact that the man who sat in the front seat of your cab, which you drove from the Greyhound Station on Lamar Street over to 500 North Beckley, had an identification bracelet on him.

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, it looked like an identification bracelet. It looks like this one, sir, it was shiny, I couldn't tell exactly whether that was the bracelet or not.

Mr. BALL. But it looks like one of them?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; it looks like it.

Mr. BALL. Offer this in evidence.

Representative FORD. So admitted.

(Commission Exhibit No. 383 was withdrawn and a photograph of the bracelet was received as Commission Exhibit No. 383-A.)

Representative FORD. What hand or what arm did he have it on?

Mr. WHALEY. He had it on the arm next to me, which was the left arm.

Representative FORD. Was it protruding below the sleeve or jacket?

Mr. WHALEY. His coatsleeve was like this when he stretches his arm out it was short, that is when I saw it.

Representative FORD. Where was his hand when you saw it, if you can recollect it?

Mr. WHALEY. Well, just moving. You know you catch any bright object, why you notice it, that is how I noticed it. He was just moving his hand around. When the old lady stuck her head in the door and asked me to call her a cab, why he reached over to the door to open it like he told her she could have that one but she decided that she would wait for the next one because he already had that one. And that is when I saw it, sir.

In the picture, I believe, I don't think he had it on in that picture in the paper the next morning.

Representative FORD. This is something you clearly noticed while he was riding in the car with you?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; I noticed it; yes, sir. I always notice watchbands, unusual watchbands, and identification bracelets like these, because I make them myself. I made this one.

Representative FORD. In other words, you have a particular interest in them?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, I particularly notice things like that.

Representative FORD. Did you notice anything unusual about it?

Mr. WHALEY. No, sir, it was just a common stretchband identification bracelet. A lot of them are made of chain links and not stretchbands. Stretchbands are unusual because there is very few of them.

Representative FORD. In other words, this was an unusual band?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; this one was a stretchband like the one you showed me.

Representative FORD. It is sort of a hobby with you to make these kinds of wristbands?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; I make watchbands like that.

Mr. BALL. Do you recall when you told, talked to the Dallas police officers that you told them that you had seen a heavy identification bracelet on this passenger's wrist?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir, I told them about the bracelet.

Mr. BALL. You told the FBI officers, also?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; but I don't remember saying it was heavy because I wouldn't have known how heavy it was without handling it.

Mr. BALL. You described the bracelet?

Mr. WHALEY. I just described the bracelet as a shiny bracelet.

Mr. BALL. A moment ago you told us about this man getting into your cab and an old lady coming up and asking for a cab.

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did the man sitting next to you open the door?

Mr. WHALEY. He just started to, sir, just reached for door handle and she said she wanted me to call one. She didn't want that.

Mr. BALL. Did the man who was sitting beside you in the cab say anything?

Mr. WHALEY. Only that she could have that one.

Mr. BALL. He said that?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. I think that is all.

Any other questions of this witness?

Did you describe the shirt that this man had on to the police?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir, I did.

Mr. BALL. What did you tell them?

Mr. WHALEY. To the best of my ability, I did, sir. I just told them it was a dark colored shirt with what looked like a silver lining.

Mr. BALL. Were you shown the shirt later?

Mr. WHALEY. About, it was at least a week later, sir, an FBI man brought the shirt over and showed it to me.

Mr. BALL. Is that the same shirt you saw here?

Mr. WHALEY. I think it is, sir. I am not positive but it had the same kind of silver streak in it.

Mr. BALL. What did you tell the FBI man who brought the shirt to you?

Mr. WHALEY. I told him to the best of my ability that was the shirt he had on.

Mr. BALL. Did the man riding with you say anything at all except tell you where he wanted to go?

Mr. WHALEY. That is all, sir, except he said when we got to where he wanted to go he said, "This will do fine," when I pulled over.

Mr. BALL. Now, in the police lineup now, and this man was talking to the police and telling them he wanted a lawyer, and that they were trying to, you say he said they were trying to, frame him or something of that sort----

Mr. WHALEY. Well, the way he talked that they were doing him an injustice by putting him out there dressed different than these other men he was out there with.

Mr. BALL. Now, did anyone, any policeman, who was there, say anything to him?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; Detective Sergeant Leavelle, I believe it was, told him that they had, would get him his lawyers on the phone, that they didn't think they were doing him wrong by putting him out there dressed up.

Representative FORD. Did the man you identified have any reaction when they brought the group out, did he have any reaction that you noticed at the time you identified him?

Mr. WHALEY. Only that he was the only one that had the bruise on his head, sir. The only one who acted surly. In other words, I told this Commission this morning you wouldn't have had to have known who it was to have picked him out by the way he acted. But he was the man that I carried in my taxicab. I told them when I identified him. I didn't identify him as the man who shot the President. I identified him as the man who rode from the Greyhound to 1500 North Beckley with me.

Representative FORD. Did you point him out with your hand?

Mr. WHALEY. No, sir; I did not. They asked me which number he was standing under and he was standing under No. 2.

Representative FORD. Could he hear you make this identification?

Mr. WHALEY. No, sir; he couldn't see me.

Representative FORD. He couldn't see you?

Mr. WHALEY. No, sir; they had the black silk screen that keeps the prisoners from seeing the people who show up.

Mr. BALL. I have no further questions.

Senator COOPER. I have no questions.

Mr. BALL. Do you know a taxi driver named Darrell Click?

Mr. WHALEY. I may know his face, sir, but not his name.

Mr. BALL. You don't know his name?

Mr. WHALEY. We go mostly by numbers.

Mr. BALL. Okay, no further questions.

The witness is excused.

Representative FORD. May we wait just a moment, please? Would you like to make a statement, Mr. Powell?

Mr. POWELL. Mr. Chairman, I think I might say just this: I am here representing Mr. Walter Craig, as I think the Commission understands. I have been here the last two days. In a conversation with Mr. Rankin yesterday morning we agreed that rather than my asking questions directly of witnesses, I would make suggestions to Mr. Ball or to one of his associates, and I have been following that practice yesterday and today, after consulting with Mr. Murray who is also here for Mr. Craig, and Mr. Ball and his associates have followed up these suggestions that we have made.

Representative FORD. The suggestions you have made have been transmitted to Mr. Ball or his associates and have been asked of the various witnesses?

Mr. POWELL. That is correct.

Representative FORD. Any other questions?

Thank you very much, Mr. Whaley.

Mr. WHALEY. Thank you, sir. I am glad to be able to be of service.

(Whereupon, at 12:30 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)

_Friday, March 13, 1964_

TESTIMONY OF MRS. KATHERINE FORD, DECLAN P. FORD, AND PETER PAUL GREGORY

The President's Commission met at 9:10 a.m. on Friday, March 13, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.

Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Representative Gerald R. Ford, member.

Also present were Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel; Norman Redlich, assistant counsel; and Charles Murray, observer.

TESTIMONY OF MRS. KATHERINE FORD

The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order.

Mrs. Ford, I would just like to read to you a short statement concerning the purpose of the meeting.

I think you have had a copy of it but I will just read it for the record.

Mrs. FORD. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. The purpose of this hearing is to take the testimony of Mr. and Mrs. Declan P. Ford and Mr. Peter Paul Gregory. The Commission has been advised that Mr. and Mrs. Ford made the acquaintance of the Oswalds shortly after their arrival in the United States in June of 1962, and that Mrs. Marina Oswald lived in the Ford home on two different occasions in November 1962, and for a period following February 12, 1964.

The Commission has also been advised that Mr. Gregory was contacted by Mr. Lee Harvey Oswald shortly after Mr. Oswald's return from Russia as a result of which Mr. and Mrs. Oswald made the acquaintance of a large number of Russian-speaking people in the Dallas and Fort Worth area.

Since the Commission is inquiring fully into the background and possible motive of Lee Harvey Oswald, the alleged assassin, it intends to ask the above witnesses questions concerning Mr. Oswald, his associations and relations with others and any and all other matters relating to the assassination.

Would you please rise and be sworn, Mrs. Ford.

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give before the Commission will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mrs. FORD. I do.

The CHAIRMAN. You may be seated. Mr. Liebeler will conduct the examination.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your full name for the record, please?

Mrs. FORD. My maiden name?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mrs. FORD. Katrina Evstratova.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you born, Mrs. Ford?

Mrs. FORD. Nova Tchkarsk.

Mr. LIEBELER. Could you tell us just briefly how you came to come to the United States, Mrs. Ford?

Mrs. FORD. How I came to the United States; I was in Germany during the war. I was taken there by Germans, not in concentration camps, but in labor camp, and after we were liberated by Americans I got acquainted with an American soldier and was married to him, and that is how I came straight to Dallas.

Mr. LIEBELER. What was this soldier's name that you married?

Mrs. FORD. Skotnicki.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you were married to him in about 1946?

Mrs. FORD. That is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you subsequently divorced him?

Mrs. FORD. Approximately 4 years ago, a little over 4 years.

Mr. LIEBELER. I want to ask you a few questions about Mr. Skotnicki and some of the people that he knew.

Do you still have any friends that were your friends when you were married to Mr. Skotnicki?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; I would think, some neighbors, I would say that we would be still--we don't see together, acquaintances together with those friends but I am sure they are still friendly. He is still friendly with the same people as I am. I would say Campbells down on 6468 Lane, the old house still stands there I would think he would still be friendly with them, and I know them very well.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't continue to see Mr. Skotnicki in any way, do you?

Mrs. FORD. No, no; I have no reason for it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether or not Mr. Skotnicki has a friend by the name of John M. Grizzaffi? That is spelled G-r-i-z-z-a-f-f-i.

Mrs. FORD. I think that he is friends, yes. It is a neighbor across the street. He was friendly with that man.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us just a little bit about Mr. Grizzaffi, if you know about him?

Mrs. FORD. I think he is in grocery business, that is what I know about him, and I believe, I wouldn't say he is busy in local politics but he is always talking about people he knows around town that are in politics, and that is about all I know. I was never very friendly with his wife and so I just know a little bit about him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Mr. Grizzaffi is a friend of Jack Ruby's?

Mrs. FORD. That I don't know. I was told by my son that Mr. Grizzaffi knew Ruby.

Mr. LIEBELER. Your son told you that?

Mrs. FORD. My young son.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is you son's name?

Mrs. FORD. My son's name is Gary.

Mr. LIEBELER. How old is he?

Mrs. FORD. Twelve.

Mr. LIEBELER. He is a son by Mr. Skotnicki?

Mrs. FORD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is he living with you and Mr. Ford?

Mrs. FORD. He lives with me.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Mr. Skotnicki knew the Oswalds?

Mrs. FORD. No; I don't think he did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether he knew anything about the Oswalds?

Mrs. FORD. Unless something was told by my son or something, by children. I don't think he knew them personally.

Mr. LIEBELER. You yourself didn't have any conversations with Mr. Skotnicki about the Oswalds?

Mrs. FORD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. I want to go through a list of names which I will go through fairly quickly and ask you if you recognize any of these names or if you know any of the people.

Do you know a gentleman by the name of George Senator?

Mrs. FORD. No; I don't.

Mr. LIEBELER. How about a man by the name of Ralph Paul?

Mrs. FORD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Andrew Armstrong?

Mrs. FORD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know a lady by the name of Karen Bennett?

Mrs. FORD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Bruce Carlin?

Mrs. FORD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know a man by the name of Roy William Pike?

Mrs. FORD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. How about Larry Crafard?

Mrs. FORD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You yourself don't know Jack Ruby in any way?

Mrs. FORD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Does Mr. Ford know Mr. Ruby?

Mrs. FORD. No; I don't thing so; no.