Part 42

Mr. BALL. Do you remember having picked up any man around the lower end of town at Elm around Houston?

Mr. McWATTERS. Elm and Houston?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. McWATTERS. No, no, sir; I didn't pick up. I made a statement here I picked up----

Mr. BALL. Take a look at it, "I picked up a man on the lower end of town on Elm around Houston."

Mr. McWATTERS. No, I didn't. I picked--"I picked a man up at the lower end of town at Elm," no, sir, I didn't pick up no man.

No, I was tied up in traffic there. Market Street is the--I must not have read that very good when I signed that, because I sure didn't. No, I didn't.

Mr. BALL. Did you pick up a man at Record and Houston?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. You didn't?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir; that is not even no stop.

Mr. BALL. In other words, this statement is not an accurate statement?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is right, sir, because in fact that day the police wouldn't let nobody, in other words they run them buses through but they wouldn't let nothing stop there, in other words.

Mr. BALL. Let's get back to that lineup.

Did you pick out one man or two men that night as people you had seen, as a person you had seen before?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I picked out, the only one that I told them it was the short man that I picked out up there.

Mr. BALL. And you thought he was the teenager whom you described?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, first that is what I thought he was.

Mr. BALL. Now you have named him Milton Jones.

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, he was----

Mr. BALL. Now you realize you were mistaken in your identification that night?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is right.

Mr. BALL. As I understand it, neither then nor now are you able to identify or say that you have again seen the man that got off your bus to whom you gave a transfer?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir; I couldn't. I could not identify him.

Mr. BALL. This Beckley bus that we talked about, remember the one that has the starting point at St. Paul and Elm----

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. The same as your bus, the Marsalis bus?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What is the difference in the time run, what time does the Beckley bus leave--let me withdraw the question.

Your bus leaves St. Paul and Elm at 12:36, scheduled to leave there as of November 22d?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Using the same schedule, can you tell me at what time around 12:30 or so that the Beckley bus would leave Elm and St. Paul and proceed westerly on Elm?

Mr. McWATTERS. He is scheduled in there the same time as I am, 12:36.

Mr. BALL. 12:36. Was that bus in the line?

Mr. McWATTERS. No. In other words, that bus was behind me, in other words, because when I got there as a general rule, when we pull up there every day, in other words, I am coming in one direction and he is another, in other words, most every day, we will pull up at this intersection at the same time.

Now, whichever way the light changes is who gets, in other words, who gets in front of who. But at that day, I am sure that I was ahead of the Beckley bus.

Mr. BALL. You are sure you were ahead of it?

Mr. McWATTERS. Because there wasn't another bus in front of me. I was the first bus down there that was tied up in there in the traffic.

Mr. BALL. Did you see the Beckley bus?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. You don't remember whether he was behind you or not?

Mr. McWATTERS. I don't remember whether he was behind me or not.

Mr. BALL. Can you transfer from your bus to the Beckley bus?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; sure can.

Mr. BALL. Any particular transfer point?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, there are particular transfer points, but we don't question anybody within the downtown section with a transfer.

Mr. BALL. If you gave a transfer to your bus, then that transfer would be good on a Beckley bus any place along Elm, wouldn't it?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is right, it sure would.

Mr. BALL. Up to the place where you change courses?

Mr. McWATTERS. It would be accepted; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Your course is westerly on Elm, is identical with that of the Beckley bus between St. Paul and Houston, isn't it?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is correct.

Mr. BALL. And from that point you go south on Houston, and the Beckley bus continues west on Elm?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is correct.

Mr. BALL. So that would be a normal transfer point, wouldn't it?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Houston and Elm?

Mr. McWATTERS. That would be a transfer. In other words, now, like I say, Lamar is the general transfer point of where all the buses cross.

Mr. BALL. Now, that night of the lineup, when you identified this one short man----

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. As being probably the teenager that had been on the bus----

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Was there anything unusual in the conduct of anyone in the lineup?

Mr. McWATTERS. No.

Mr. BALL. Did any man in the lineup talk more than anyone else?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, I believe they had a guy that asked them their address, and they said, "address" and I don't know, he asked them, I believe he asked some of them where they lived or some or them where they worked, or I don't remember just what, in other words, he asked some enough, every one of them to say some few words.

Mr. BALL. You could hear them talk?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; you could hear them talk.

Mr. BALL. Was any one man boisterous, mean, loud, anything of that sort?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, not that I could tell any difference. They all talked to me as, in other words, you just asked them their name and address. If they did, I didn't pay any attention to it.

(At this point, Representative Ford entered the hearing room.)

Mr. BALL. This is Exhibit No. 376 that I will show you again. You have indicated on the map the course of your bus south on Marsalis. Is there any other bus route that goes south on any street east of Marsalis?

Mr. McWATTERS. You mean that crosses it this way?

Mr. BALL. No, goes south.

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, let's see.

Mr. BALL. Is there a main highway called Denley? Is there a bus route on Ewing?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. Bus route on Ewing.

Mr. BALL. That goes south on Ewing?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Does that bus come anywhere near, does that bus run down Elm?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where does it turn to get to Ewing?

Mr. McWATTERS. In other words, it turns, it goes just like the Marsalis bus here goes, until he gets----

Mr. BALL. Let's start up at Elm here, Elm and Houston now. Does the bus that goes down Ewing come west on Elm?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Does it go by St. Paul and Elm?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Have a starting point there?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; it is a final point for it right there.

Mr. BALL. And it goes west on Elm?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where does it turn off Elm?

Mr. McWATTERS. It turns the same place as I do, in other words.

Mr. BALL. South on Houston?

Mr. McWATTERS. South on Houston.

Mr. BALL. And then does it go across the Houston Street viaduct?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Then it turns on, how does it get onto Ewing?

Mr. McWATTERS. It comes on out to Marsalis to, let's see, I have to find the zoo. That is where it turns right there at the Marsalis Park, and turns and goes over to Ewing, let's see, what is the name of that--this bus turns to the left off Marsalis there, it is a park--there is a big expressway there and it is the first street when it crosses over the expressway where it turns off of Marsalis on Opera. The name of the bus is Ramona, it is the same, in other words, it is the same line as this other one.

Mr. BALL. As I understand it now the bus that goes down Ewing comes off the Houston Street viaduct as far as, comes down the Houston Street viaduct as far as Marsalis, does it?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; and it goes south on Marsalis.

Mr. BALL. It goes south on Marsalis?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is right.

Mr. BALL. And it turns over to Ewing, that would be east on Ewing?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes; that would be east.

Mr. BALL. At or about what point?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, in other words, that is the Marsalis Zoo is where it is, after you cross the expressway there, it is the first street, Opera is the name of that and it goes right down to Ewing.

Mr. BALL. Then at the corner of 11th, at the intersection of 11th and Marsalis both buses travel the same route?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; they sure do. Both buses travel the same route to Marsalis and the Ramona bus on that part travel the same route.

Mr. BALL. Probably on the same route.

Now, I show you this document which is the bus schedule of Marsalis-Ramona-Elwood-Munger, and it shows you leave St. Paul at 12:36 and you arrive at Lamar 12:40.

The bus transfers are punched you told me for 1 o'clock. We have a transfer here that you have seen or we will show you in a few minutes as soon as it gets here, which has a punch mark of 1 o'clock. You told Senator Cooper that you usually punched within 15 minutes of the time you reached the transfer points?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. If that is the case, what----

Mr. McWATTERS. You mean why did I have it punched at 1 o'clock?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. McWATTERS. Because I punch it p.m. In other words, I have a punch, I am going to Lakewood, I mean I am going Marsalis and I am going back Lakewood, so I just take me two books of transfers. Instead of punching one of them a.m. and one p.m. I just punched them p.m.

Mr. BALL. Do you punch within 15 minutes of the time you reach the transfer points?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is the way that the transfers are supposed to be cut.

Mr. BALL. Well, if you reach Lamar, if you were to reach Lamar at 12:40, what time, according to the rules should you punch it?

Mr. McWATTERS. I should have punched it at 12:45.

Mr. BALL. At 12:45?

Mr. McWATTERS. But I would have to punch one book a.m. and another one p.m., so I just punched both of them p.m.

Mr. BALL. In other words, what you do is punch on the hour rather than the 45 and 15 minutes usually?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. In other words, your usual practice is not to punch on the 15-minute interval, is that right, but to punch on the hour?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, just like I say within the closest of the hour like that, in other words.

Mr. BALL. Suppose today you were wanting to punch some transfers at the end of the line and you knew you were going to get to Lamar at 12:40. Would you punch--what would you punch it?

Mr. McWATTERS. I work that run all the time, I punch at 1 o'clock every day. As I say I worked it 2 years and as I say in order to keep from punching one of them a.m. and one p.m., for the difference in the hour there, I just punch them p.m.

Mr. BALL. I don't quite understand that. Doesn't your p.m. start at after 12 o'clock?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, the way the transfers are there, did you notice how they was, they run them until--see how 12:45 there, in other words, that is what they use that up to a.m. in other words.

Mr. BALL. It is 12:45 a.m., it runs up to a.m.

Mr. McWATTERS. That is what they run it to a.m. In other words, after 12:45 or in there, in other words, everything is punched p.m.

Mr. BALL. In other words, everything in the hour from 12 on is punched a.m., the day time, 12 to one is a.m., 12 to 12:45, for that hour, a transfer good in that hour is punched a.m., is that right?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, it can be punched a.m. up to, just like 12:45.

Mr. BALL. And the next punch is 1 o'clock and that is p.m.?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is p.m.; yes, sir. That is the way they have them.

Representative FORD. The day that you punched this particular transfer, November 22?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. You punched them the same that day as you did every other day?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is right. Every day, in other words, I just punch them p.m. I punch them p.m., and in other words, so it will be just a straight cut across it.

Representative FORD. Is that the usual practice for all bus drivers to use this practice?

Mr. McWATTERS. The practice they are supposed to cut them within the quarter of the hour, but in other words, I just have been working that run and I just, it is p.m., and I just make one trip one way and one back the other, and so I--all I carry are two books of transfers and so I just punch two books p.m., using one going one way at 1 o'clock and the other coming back at 2.

Representative FORD. This is the practice you have used for 2 years approximately?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is right, when I worked that run, in other words, when I am going one way at 1 o'clock, coming back from the other end of the line I set them at 2. I am back in there at, my next trip I am back in there at Lamar Street, I think it is 1:38 but I always just set them at 2 o'clock.

Mr. BALL. We have a couple of more pictures here. 378 and 379 which are pictures of the interior of the bus--Nos. 379 and 380. (Picture marked for identification as Commission Exhibit No. 374 is the same as Commission Exhibit No. 379.)

I will first show you 379. Is that a picture of the bus from front to rear of your bus?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; that is the front and that is the rear.

Mr. BALL. Here is 380, is that a picture of the bus taken from the front taken looking towards the rear?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. I offer these in evidence, too.

Representative FORD. So admitted.

(The pictures referred to were marked Commission's Exhibits Nos. 379 and 380 and received in evidence.)

Mr. BALL. I have here an exhibit which I would like to have marked as 381 which can be identified as a transfer issued by Dallas Transit Company, Friday, November 22, 1963.

Do you identify it, can you tell me, if you have ever seen that transfer before?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, that is my punch mark right on that there; p.m.

(The transfer was marked Commission Exhibit No. 381 for identification.)

Mr. BALL. You issued it, did you?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Tell me when you issued it, on what run?

Mr. McWATTERS. I issued it on Marsalis and Munger line at I would say, around to the best of my knowledge it would be around 12:40 or somewheres in that vicinity on November 22.

Mr. BALL. And it has your punch mark, has it?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; that is my punch mark.

Mr. BALL. Identify it punched in the p.m. section?

Mr. McWATTERS. Of the Lakewood column here on the transfer.

Mr. BALL. When did you punch it exactly? Where were you when you punched it?

Mr. McWATTERS. I punched it before I left the end of the line, in other words.

Mr. BALL. This is number 004459, is the transfer number. Entitled "The Shoppers Transfer." Every transfer has a separate number, has it?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; everyone has a separate number.

Mr. BALL. What we would like to do is mark a photostat of the transfer as 381A and substitute the photostat and we can return the transfer to the custody of the FBI.

Representative FORD. The exhibit will be admitted.

(The photostat referred to was marked Commission Exhibit 381A and received in evidence.)

Representative FORD. How many of those transfers did you issue on this particular run?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well----

Representative FORD. Up to the time you passed the Texas School Depository.

Mr. McWATTERS. I really don't know because I didn't, see. I didn't know anything--I didn't put out any--most of the transfers that you put out at this time or that time of day are for elderly women which get the shopper's transfers, in other words. It has got a line there, and it entitles them to a free ride back to where they came from, in other words, and that time of the morning, because when I get downtown, in other words, you can catch a bus at Elm Street going to any place that I would go without having a transfer, in other words.

Representative FORD. Would you have any recollection of how many passengers you picked up from the beginning of the line to the time that this man got on at the middle of the block on Elm Street?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I don't--I recall that I didn't have very many passengers that day, because I figured that everybody had done gone to town to see the parade, to see the President, and it just wasn't what few passengers I recall was mostly elderly women that was going into town.

I don't recall just how many of them I did have on the bus.

Representative FORD. But you did have these two men, the teenager and this other young man?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; that were on the bus.

Representative FORD. And you very specifically recall giving a transfer to this woman with the suitcase and the man who was in the second seat on the right-hand side?

Mr. McWATTERS. On the right side that got off. In other words, to the best of my knowledge that is the only two transfers that I put out going through town that I can recall at all, I mean, because I don't recall putting out any more transfers than those two that I put out when I was held up there in traffic.

Mr. BALL. Mr. McWatters, on this transfer is the name of Shopper's Transfer.

Does that have any significance?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; that is what I was telling him. In other words, if they want a Shoppers; well I put my punch mark in that Shoppers there, which they cannot use it for a transfer, in other words, any more than other than--all the stores, most of them in downtown Dallas, if you buy as much as a dollar's worth between the period of ten and four in the afternoon they give you a little white slip which entitled you to ride what is called the Shopper's Pass. It rides you back, but in other words you have to, a passenger has to, ask for it in other words.

When they say a Shopper, you take a punch and punch your punch mark where it says Shoppers, but they are not supposed to use the transfer then to transfer to another bus. They are supposed, in other words, where it is punched in the store, get it exchanged for their return fare.

Mr. BALL. In other words, all your transfers have on them printed the word "Shopper's Transfer"?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; they do.

Mr. BALL. And in order to make it a Shopper's Transfer so that the transfer can be exchanged for a merchandise coupon to ride home, it has to have your punch in the Shopper's Transfer area, is that right?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is correct, yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you know, did you remember, an elderly woman getting on your bus some place on Elm after you left St. Paul?

Mr. McWATTERS. Not that I recall.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember when this man, do you remember when this man knocked on your window, and you opened your bus and let him on, some place around Murphy or Griffin and Elm, that an elderly woman got up in the bus and moved?

Did you see that or anything like that?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, I don't recall.

Mr. BALL. Do you know whether or not you left an elderly woman off down around in the Oak Cliff area some place?

Mr. McWATTERS. The best I can recall I had two or three or four elderly women, the best I can remember on the bus when I left town, but I don't recall where any of them got off.

Mr. BALL. Do you know a woman named Mary Bledsoe?

Did you pick anybody up at St. Paul and Elm?

Mr. McWATTERS. I really don't--I really can't recall whether I did or not.

Mr. BALL. I have no further questions.

Senator COOPER. I would like to ask a few, if I may.

Am I correct in saying that the direction of your bus at the time of these events you have testified to it was going west on Elm Street?

Mr. McWATTERS. West on Elm. In other words, west, the streets of Dallas all run east and west.

Senator COOPER. But when you got to Houston Street, then you turned south?

Mr. McWATTERS. I turned south, that is correct.

Senator COOPER. Did your bus pass the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well----

Senator COOPER. I mean does it pass it directly?

Mr. McWATTERS. It doesn't pass it directly, no, sir. In other words, where I turn to the left on Houston Street, the book store is across on the opposite corner.

Senator COOPER. Now, as you reached Lamar Street, or did you reach Lamar Street on that date before you passed near the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. McWATTERS. You mean--yes, I have to pass Lamar Street before I get down to there.

Senator COOPER. Now, this first affidavit you made on November 22----

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. Which has been referred to in the testimony.

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Senator COOPER. It stated in this affidavit that, "I picked up a man on the lower end of town on Elm around Houston."

Now, you picked up a man at that time it would have been after you passed Lamar Street?

Mr. McWATTERS. It would have been after I passed Lamar.

Senator COOPER. The remainder of the affidavit, which has been made a part of the testimony----

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Senator COOPER. Refers to that you picked up a woman and you asked her if she knew the President had been shot, and then the man--you asked her then to speak to the man behind her.

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Senator COOPER. "Who said the President was shot in the temple." Now, then, this incident that you testified to in this affidavit, was after you had passed Elm Street?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; that is right.

Senator COOPER. Was the man that you were talking about in this affidavit the teenager?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. At the time this affidavit was made, were you asked about any other man who may have been on the run that day at that time?

Mr. McWATTERS. I don't remember whether I was or not.

Senator COOPER. What was it then that caused you at some time later to remember that another man had got on the bus near Murphy and had left the bus, as you have stated in 2 or 3 blocks in the vicinity of Elm Street?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, just like I say, the best I can remember is the man, I believe in fact beside the boy, I believe he was the only man on board the bus. After I got to recall, in other words----

Senator COOPER. But what I am asking you is what it was that caused you to remember the teenager at the time you made this affidavit on the 22d, and what it was that, why it was that, you didn't at that time speak of the other man who had got on the bus?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is what I say, it just didn't--it just doesn't register, I don't know.

Senator COOPER. Were you asked whether or not any other man was on the bus?

Mr. McWATTERS. I don't remember whether I was or not.

Senator COOPER. When was it that you remembered about the second man being on the bus, the man that you now state got on around Murphy Street and got off at Elm?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well. I just studied and tried to remember everything that I could. In other words, I still, you know, just try to see if I could remember any incidents or anything that was said or done that I hadn't thought of and everything.

Senator COOPER. I think you stated you did not give the teenager any transfer?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, I don't--no.

Senator COOPER. Was the fact then that you were shown a transfer by the police that called your attention to that?

Mr. McWATTERS. I guess that would probably be----

Senator COOPER. Another man?

Mr. McWATTERS. That would probably be the reason.

I don't know of any other reason that it would be unless it was the transfer, that I can recall.

Senator COOPER. Are you absolutely certain that you did see another man on that bus?

Mr. McWATTERS. Do you mean the day?

Senator COOPER. A man other than the teenager?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; I picked up a man.

Senator COOPER. Where?

Mr. McWATTERS. Along about Griffin Street that knocked on the door of the bus.

Senator COOPER. Is that near Murphy?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is near Murphy, in other words, Murphy is over here zig-zags, Griffin zig-zags across to Murphy.

Senator COOPER. Why was it then that when you made this affidavit, you wouldn't remember that a man knocked on the door to get in the bus?