Part 41

(The map referred to was marked Commission's Exhibit No. 376 and received in evidence.)

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Now, take a look at this map and tell me if that map, the blue line on the map, indicates your route on that day, where you started in northeast Dallas?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, that is the original starting line there.

Mr. BALL. What is the street?

Mr. McWATTERS. I believe--I can't even see that small print on that. That is Ellsworth and Anita, that is where it is coming back there.

Mr. BALL. Ellsworth and Anita, and then you proceeded downtown along that course, did you?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. This is Lakewood shopping center.

Mr. BALL. Do you have an alternative route through there?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, in other words, that is where the main thoroughfare starts right there at Gaston Avenue. Gaston right here which is the main street when you leave this shopping center.

Mr. BALL. You went down Gaston to Pacific?

Mr. McWATTERS. Went down Gaston to, let's see this is Hawkins Street right here.

Mr. BALL. Then you went left on Hawkins to Elm?

Mr. McWATTERS. To Elm Street, yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Then you went on Elm.

Mr. McWATTERS. Went from Elm to, this would be Houston Street.

Mr. BALL. Turned on Houston Street viaduct?

Mr. McWATTERS. Left on Houston Street.

Mr. BALL. To Marsalis?

Mr. McWATTERS. In other words, this is the Houston Street viaduct and this is Marsalis where you turn and come off Houston Street viaduct.

Mr. BALL. Then you go south how far?

Mr. McWATTERS. Go south all the way to, let's see, it is Ann Arbor. This is all Marsalis right here.

Mr. BALL. A straight run south?

Mr. McWATTERS. Straight run.

Mr. BALL. Then you make a turn and go back?

Mr. McWATTERS. I make a turn, in other words, on Ann Arbor and in other words, just circle, make a loop, just circle right around this little shopping center here.

Mr. BALL. And go back.

Mr. McWATTERS. And right back down Marsalis.

Mr. BALL. Marsalis is how far from Beckley?

Mr. McWATTERS. Marsalis is, let's see----

Mr. BALL. This is Beckley here?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You can count the streets there, can you?

Mr. McWATTERS. In other words, it would be seven blocks.

Mr. BALL. Seven blocks, Beckley is seven blocks west of Marsalis, is that correct?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Your bus line doesn't run down Beckley?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. It doesn't run seven blocks, close to Beckley? Have you seen this? Here is Beckley and here is Marsalis, the bus line.

Is there a bus route on Beckley?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; there is.

Mr. BALL. Can you get a bus that goes down Beckley some place around Houston and Elm?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; the bus comes, the Beckley bus comes in on St. Paul and Elm, in other words, at the time that I was, before we started, in other words, that is where the Beckley bus enters Elm Street there and then he goes the same route through town.

Mr. BALL. Same route you go down to the Houston viaduct?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes. In other words, after the Book Depository down there, he goes straight on.

Mr. BALL. Let me ask you this: The Beckley bus, the bus that will take you south on Beckley, has a starting point the same place as yours at St. Paul and Elm?

Mr. McWATTERS. St. Paul, in other words, the time element is the same. In other words, he comes in there.

Mr. BALL. Then that Beckley bus goes west on Elm the same as your bus?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. But instead of turning south on the Houston Street viaduct the Beckley bus goes straight west on Elm, doesn't it?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is correct.

Mr. BALL. Can you show us the bus stop for the Beckley bus on this Commission Exhibit No. 361?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, yes; his last bus stop would be right here at the corner of----

Mr. BALL. Let's put a mark on this. Here is a red pencil, and put a mark on this in red and show us the place where the Beckley bus would stop.

Mr. McWATTERS. It would stop--in other words, we consider this corner of this intersection right here, any letter or what.

Mr. BALL. Just put a rectangular mark about the size of a bus indicating bus stop--take black ink and indicating a place where the bus would stop.

Mr. McWATTERS. In other words, the bus would stop along in this place right here.

Mr. BALL. All right, now that is bus stop for Beckley bus.

Mr. McWATTERS. That is bus stop for Beckley bus.

Mr. BALL. Northeast corner Houston and Elm.

Mr. McWATTERS. Northeast corner of Houston and Elm.

Mr. BALL. The Beckley bus goes on across directly in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is correct.

Mr. BALL. As your bus gets into another lane of traffic and does not stop at Houston and Elm and makes a turn south on Houston.

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Then the Beckley bus stop, the stop of the Beckley bus, which is in black ink on the northeast corner of Houston and Elm, we will mark that with a big "B" which stands for Beckley bus.

Representative FORD. How long have you been on this run that you had the day of November 22?

Mr. McWATTERS. I worked this run for, I would say, this is the second year. This makes 2 years that I worked this.

Representative FORD. Two years consecutively?

Mr. McWATTERS. 2 years consecutively that I have been on this run and worked it.

Representative FORD. So you would be familiar with the route?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; just like I say, I worked it, this is the second year that I have worked the same, in other words, the same hours, and the same route.

Representative FORD. How many hours a day do you work this route?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, now, this one particular route right here, I work it only 2 hours and 35 minutes.

Representative FORD. Each day?

Mr. McWATTERS. Each day.

Representative FORD. How many days a week?

Mr. McWATTERS. 5 days, Monday through Friday. And after that, in other words, I work on another, a different bus line.

But this one particular one here is just 2 hours and 35 minutes each day.

Representative FORD. When you say a different bus line, you mean the same company but a different route?

Mr. McWATTERS. A different route.

Representative FORD. You would be familiar with the time schedules and all of the stops on this particular route from your 2 years' experience?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. May I ask a question?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. Have you testified that you saw this passenger whom you later recognized in the lineup, get on the bus in the vicinity of Murphy Street--is Murphy Street on your right?

Mr. McWATTERS. Murphy Street is the street that, in other words, that comes in.

Senator COOPER. Does it run into Elm Street?

Mr. McWATTERS. It runs into Elm Street, it dead ends, in other words, into Elm Street.

Here is Field Street, in other words, across this intersection and we stopped across the intersection of Field, and Murphy Street comes in to the intersection at about where the bus stops, in other words, where Field Street stops and I guess that Griffin is the next small street that comes in just, it is just a short distance below.

Senator COOPER. Well, did the passenger that you have testified about, and whom you stated that you later identified, did he get on in the vicinity of Murphy Street?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. Murphy Street--you proceeded from Murphy Street toward the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. Is that correct?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is correct.

Senator COOPER. Was the passenger that got on near Murphy Street the same passenger that you later have testified about who told you that the President had been shot in the temple?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, they told me later that it was, but at the time they didn't tell me.

Senator COOPER. Who didn't tell you?

Mr. McWATTERS. The police didn't.

Senator COOPER. When you say this passenger got on near Murphy Street, was there anything about him that caused you to take notice of him particularly?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, no, sir. I wouldn't say there was. He was, I would say, he didn't have on no suit or anything, he had on, I believe, some type of jacket, cloth jacket.

Senator COOPER. What caused you to remember him getting on?

Mr. McWATTERS. What caused me to remember?

Senator COOPER. Yes; at the time he got on.

Mr. McWATTERS. Because, the reason I remembered exactly because I didn't put out but two transfers, and that, in other words, from where he got on and everything, I didn't have but one, there wasn't but one man on the bus and that was the teenage boy, when he got on the bus, in other words, when he got off, he was the only man except the teenage boy who was on the bus at the time.

Senator COOPER. Now was this man that you saw got on the bus the same one who told you that the President had been shot in the temple?

Mr. McWATTERS. The man who got on the bus now?

Senator COOPER. Yes. The man to whom you have just referred as getting on the bus near Murphy Street.

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Senator COOPER. Is he the same man who told you that the President had been shot in the temple?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir.

Senator COOPER. Who told you that?

Mr. McWATTERS. A man in an automobile in front of me, in other words, that was sitting in a car come back and told me.

Senator COOPER. Told you what?

Mr. McWATTERS. That the President had been shot, that he had heard over his radio in his car that the President had been shot.

Senator COOPER. I think you have testified that someone, some passenger on the bus, in response to a question that you had asked, "I wonder where they shot the President" said, "They shot him in the temple."

Mr. McWATTERS. Oh, that was now, that was after we had done, that is when I turned on Houston Street, the conversation with the teenage boy.

Senator COOPER. It was the teenage boy who told you that?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; it was the teenage boy, sitting on his right side of the side seat there, the one that I conversationed with about the President being shot in the head or the temple, I don't remember, but the teenage boy was the one.

That was after the man that already got off that had boarded my bus up around Griffin there.

Senator COOPER. Then the one who told you the President had been shot in the temple was not the one you later identified in the police lineup?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir.

Senator COOPER. This probably has been testified to, but where did the man that you later identified in the police lineup get off the bus?

Mr. McWATTERS. Got off between Poydras and Lamar Street.

Senator COOPER. Was that after you crossed over the viaduct or before?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir; that was before I crossed over.

Senator COOPER. When did the teenage boy get off the bus?

Mr. McWATTERS. He got off at Oak Cliff, I believe. He got off at Marsalis and Brownley.

Senator COOPER. Was that after the bus had crossed the viaduct?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is after the bus had----

Senator COOPER. Past the Texas Depository?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; that is about 3 or 4 miles out in the Oak Cliff section where the teenage boy got off of the bus.

Senator COOPER. From the time the man got on the bus, which you later identified in the police lineup until he got off, had you noticed him, had you looked at him again?

Mr. McWATTERS. Had I looked at him again?

Senator COOPER. Yes.

Mr. McWATTERS. Not until just like I say he was sitting--I was talking to this teenage boy and he was sitting right behind this boy, but I didn't pay him any particular attention, to the man.

Senator COOPER. You saw him get on the bus?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Senator COOPER. Did you see him get off?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes; I gave him a transfer when he got off the bus, the same place that was, the same place I was stopped where the man come back and stepped up in the bus and told me what he had heard over his radio in his car, the same place that the lady got off, with a suitcase, is the place that the man got off.

Senator COOPER. The man you later identified in the police lineup?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is correct; yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. Did you pay any particular attention to him when he got off?

Mr. McWATTERS. Not no more than I did than, I think, when he got on.

Senator COOPER. Do you remember anything about his clothes or his general appearance in any way?

Mr. McWATTERS. Just like I say, I remember he had on, to me he had on just work clothes, he didn't have on a suit of clothes, and some type of jacket. I would say a cloth jacket.

Senator COOPER. I believe that is all.

Mr. BALL. You didn't--as I understand it, when you were at the police lineup, you told us that you didn't--weren't able to identify this man in the lineup as the man who got off, that you gave the transfer to.

Mr. McWATTERS. I told them to the best of my knowledge, I said the man that I picked out was the same height, about the same height, weight and description. But as far as actually saying that is the man I couldn't----

Mr. BALL. You couldn't do it?

Mr. McWATTERS. I wouldn't do it and I wouldn't do it now.

Mr. BALL. You signed an affidavit for the Dallas Police Department, do you remember that?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. I will show you a copy of it, we can get the original if you want, but there is a copy of it, a picture taken of it.

Will you read it, please?

(At this point, Representative Ford withdrew from the hearing room.)

Mr. BALL. This document, I would like to have marked as 377, at this time, Commission Exhibit, with the understanding that we may substitute the photostat for the original.

Senator COOPER. Very well; let it be substituted. It has been identified, and will be identified.

Mr. BALL. Yes, it will be; I will identify it for the record as a photostat of an affidavit of Cecil J. McWatters made before Patsy Collins, Notary Public of Dallas County, Tex., November 22, 1963.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit 377, and received in evidence.)

Mr. BALL. Now, having read that, first of all, does that look like your signature, Mr. McWatters?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; it does.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember the circumstances under which you made that affidavit?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I just told them the best I could remember.

Mr. BALL. I am showing this to you for the purpose of refreshing your memory.

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, I know.

Mr. BALL. I know it has been several months.

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, I know what you mean.

Mr. BALL. And sometimes when you see something that you signed before it refreshes your memory.

Mr. McWATTERS. It sure does.

Yes, that is what you mean, I know what you mean, I said that looked like the man I saw.

Mr. BALL. In this affidavit, it says, it mentions the fact that when you went to Marsalis and picked up a woman.

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. You asked her if she knew the President had been shot, you told us about that a few moments ago.

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. She thought you were kidding, and you told her, "I told her if she didn't believe me to ask the man behind her, that he had told me the President was shot in the temple."

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Was the man, was that the teenager?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is right, sir, that was the teenage boy. In other words, he was, I would say, around 17 or 18 years old.

Mr. BALL. You said here, "The man didn't say anything but he was grinning."

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Do you think that happened?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, when the lady asked him, he just kind of grinned, in other words, and she said, "This is not a grinning or laughing matter," or something to that effect I don't remember just exactly what she did say.

Mr. BALL. Now you told them at that time you didn't know where you let this man off.

Mr. McWATTERS. That is right, I didn't at that time, I didn't know where he got off.

Mr. BALL. You told us a few moments ago you thought he got off another place.

Mr. McWATTERS. That is right, sir.

Mr. BALL. What was that place?

Mr. McWATTERS. He got off at Brownley, because the man rode with me the next day.

Mr. BALL. You went out there the next day, did you?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. With an FBI man or a Dallas policeman?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, I mean----

Mr. BALL. The same teenager?

Mr. McWATTERS. The same teenager rode with me the next day.

Mr. BALL. And you noticed he got off there?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, and I noticed, and I asked him, like I told him, I said that I was--I thought that, you know, that he was, when he first got on down there, I says, "From all indications, we had you kind of pinpointed as the man who might have been mixed up in the assassination and everything." And----

Mr. BALL. Do I understand the day after you made the affidavit, this would be the 23d of November?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. That this same teenager got on your bus again?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, he got on.

Mr. BALL. And you noticed where you let him off?

Mr. McWATTERS. I noticed where I let him off, yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Is that the reason that today you remember he got off?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is it today I remember, just like I say, I remember I talked to him the next day, and he told me where he got on, and he told me where he got on, and where he got off and where he lived, and, you know that----

Mr. BALL. Has he been on your bus since?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. He has?

Mr. McWATTERS. He has rode with me since.

Mr. BALL. Yes. I see.

Did you give him a transfer that day?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, because he gets on and he lives within about two blocks of the busline, in other words, where he gets off.

Mr. BALL. Do you know this boy's name?

Mr. McWATTERS. I believe his name is Milton Jones.

Mr. BALL. Milton Jones?

Mr. McWATTERS. Milton Jones. I don't believe I know where he lives, but I pass where he lives. But he told me his name was Milton Jones and he told me he was 17.

Mr. BALL. Did he ever tell you where he works?

Mr. McWATTERS. He told me that, I believe, he goes to school half a day, believe he said and I believe he goes home and he has a part-time job, but he never did state where he works.

Mr. BALL. Did he tell you where he went to school?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir; he never did tell me where he went to school.

Mr. BALL. Or where he worked?

Mr. McWATTERS. Where he worked, either one.

Mr. BALL. You notice in the affidavit there it says, "This man"--referring to the man who was grinning----

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. "This man looks like the No. 1 man I saw in the lineup today."

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Who was the No. 2 man you saw in the lineup on November 22, 1963?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, just like I say, he was the shortest man in the lineup, in other words, when they brought these men out there, in other words, he was about the shortest, and the lightest weight one, I guess, was the reason I say that he looked like the man, because the rest of them were larger men than----

Mr. BALL. Well, now, at that time, when you saw the lineup----

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Were you under the impression that this man that you saw in the lineup and whom you pointed out to the police, was the teenage boy who had been grinning?

Mr. McWATTERS. I was, yes, sir; I was under the impression----

Mr. BALL. That was the fellow?

Mr. McWATTERS. That was the fellow.

Mr. BALL. You were not under the impression then that night when you saw the lineup that the No. 2 man in the lineup was the man who got off the bus, to whom you had given a transfer?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is what I say. In other words, when I told them, I said, the only way is the man, that he is smaller, in other words, he kind of had a thin like face and he weighs less than any one of them. The only one I could identify at all would be the smaller man on account he was the only one who could come near fitting the description.

Mr. BALL. Let me ask you this, though. Did you tell them the man, the smaller man, you saw in the lineup, did you tell them that you thought he was the man who got off your bus and got the transfer or the man who was on the bus who was the teenager who was grinning?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I really thought he was the man who was on the bus.

Mr. BALL. That stayed on the bus?

Mr. McWATTERS. That stayed on the bus.

Mr. BALL. And you didn't think he was the man who got off the bus and to whom you gave a transfer?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. At that time you didn't?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is why I say I pinpointed that transfer on that boy as far as that is concerned. But at first, just like I say, I really thought from the height and weight of the two men, I mean was just like I say, was both of them were small. In the lineup they had, in other words, bigger men, in other words, he was the smallest man at the lineup.

Mr. BALL. We have got--we have this diagram that you have already drawn of the bus which has several initials on it. Could you tell me where on the bus this lady sat who told the teenager it was no grinning matter?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, now, that is, in other words, I don't think at that time--now this teenager was still on the bus near, but I had a couple of more passengers on there, I believe I had two women on there, but I can't recall just, when I picked her up where she sat down on the bus.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember you said to the woman, "Look at that man behind you?"

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, she was standing up here at the fare, paying fare.

Mr. BALL. And the teenager was where?

Mr. McWATTERS. He was sitting right here.

Mr. BALL. At the place "O", is that right?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, at the place "O".

Mr. BALL. I see.

Mr. McWATTERS. That is where the conversation was going on.

Mr. BALL. Mr. McWatters, that affidavit you have there, will you look at another item you have there?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. "Today, November 22, 1963, about 12:40 p.m., I was driving Marsalis Bus No. 1213."

Mr. McWATTERS. That is right.

Mr. BALL. First of all, you have referred to that as another bus, Munger Bus, is that the same bus?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; in other words, that number there is my run number right here on my card.

Mr. BALL. I understand that, but do you call that run the Marsalis run as well as the Munger run?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. Well, here you can--let me show you here on this schedule right here, Marsalis, Ramona, Elwood and Munger.

Mr. BALL. Can we take this and have a Xerox----

Mr. McWATTERS. You can just take the whole thing.

Mr. BALL. All right. We will have a Xerox of this and mark it 378, a Xerox copy.

Will you identify that document and tell me what it is?

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit 378, for identification.)

Mr. McWATTERS. This is a schedule, I will just say a bus schedule.

Mr. BALL. That is for the Marsalis-Ramona-Elwood-Munger run?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is correct.

Mr. BALL. Run 1213. Is this the run schedule that was in effect on November 22, 1963?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. BALL. It shows here at St. Paul you were to leave at 12:36; is that correct?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is correct.

Mr. BALL. We will make a photostat of that and we will give you back the original.

Mr. McWATTERS. You can keep that if you want to. They made another copy of it.

Mr. BALL. All right, then, we will keep this as an original.

Can this be introduced into evidence, Senator?

Senator COOPER. Yes, let it be made a part of the evidence.

(The document heretofore marked for identification as Commission Exhibit No. 378, was received in evidence.)

Mr. BALL. I have a few more questions to ask you, a few more questions, Mr. McWatters.

Let's look again at this affidavit.

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. "I picked up a man on the lower end of town on Elm around Houston," as I remember you didn't stop at Elm and Houston; you stopped at Record and Houston for a pickup.

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.