Part 40

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, they told me that they had a transfer that I had issued that was cut for Lamar Street at 1 o'clock, and they wanted to know if I knew anything about it. And I, after I looked at the transfer and my punch, I said yes, that is the transfer I issued because it had my punch mark on it.

Mr. BALL. Did your punch mark have a distinctive mark?

Mr. McWATTERS. It had a distinctive mark and it is registered, in other words, all the drivers, every driver has a different punch mark.

Mr. BALL. What makes it different?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, it is, it would be, the symbol of it or angle, in other words, every one; it is different, in other words.

Mr. BALL. You have a punch there?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; I have the punch right here.

Mr. BALL. Is that the punch that you used?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is the punch I used.

Mr. BALL. Will you punch a piece of paper and show us?

Mr. McWATTERS. In other words, that is the type of punch that this one makes right here, in other words.

Mr. BALL. That is a different type of punch than any other driver has?

Mr. McWATTERS. Any driver, in other words.

Mr. BALL. On any bus in Dallas?

Mr. McWATTERS. In other words, the superintendent has a list, in other words, it would be just like this and every man has a punch and he has his name, and everything. In other words, if anyone calls in about a transfer or anything, I mean brings one in he can look right down the list by the punch mark and tell whose punch it is, and who it is registered to.

Mr. BALL. Now, the sample of your punch there has been on a piece of paper and we would like to have it marked as 372 at this time.

(The paper referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 372 and received in evidence.)

Mr. BALL. If you punched, made a punch mark, on a transfer, did you designate the time of the punch or the place of the punch?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; I designate the time of the--we have one general transfer point. In other words, Lamar Street is what we call our general transfer point in which all transfers are cut within the quarter of the hour in which you are supposed to be there.

In other words, if you was to arrive there at, say, 12:50 or in that vicinity, you always give the passenger the 15 minutes, in other words, within the hour of the transfer. In other words, is the way they have you to cut your transfers across your cutter.

In other words, it is just a little thing that you raise up and down and you can adjust them, and right here is a book of them in which you can see the time. It is one, in other words, 2:15, 3:30, and 4:45, and we set them in other words, if you wanted at 1:15, 1 o'clock would be across this direction. If you wanted it 1:15 you would cut across this direction or if you wanted it 1:45 you would cut it in this direction. In other words, 1:15, -:30 and -:45. In other words, the 15 minutes is always given at the time, at the general transfer point.

Representative FORD. It is 10:25 now. How would you cut it right now?

Mr. McWATTERS. At 10:25.

Representative FORD. Why don't you cut one?

Mr. McWATTERS. I have a regular cutter, you see; let's see if he can get something that would--in other words, 10:25, I will just cut it, in other words, cut across there, and cut it, in other words, at 10:30, in other words, it would show at 10:30.

(At this point, Senator Cooper entered the hearing room.)

Representative FORD. Where do you put your own identification?

Mr. McWATTERS. On here. Well, if it is in the morning or in the afternoon, here is your a.m., or your p.m. In other words, it is before 12:45, in other words, we consider up to 12:45 a.m., in other words, that is the way they are.

In other words, I would punch it in the a.m. side of it, and if it was in the afternoon, in other words, after that, it would be a p.m. transfer, and whatever line that you are working has the name on it right here.

In other words, at that time that transfer I had punched was punched a p.m. Lakewood, in other words, because I was coming from the Lakewood addition is the way that was punched on the transfer.

Mr. BALL. Well now, do you punch the transfer when the passenger asks for it?

Mr. McWATTERS. No. No, sir; in other words, when you leave this, you are inbound when you are going into town or when you are going, in other words, out of town, in other words.

I was coming in, in other words, when I got in Lakewood Addition I set my transfers for downtown.

Mr. BALL. For downtown and you set them for what time?

Mr. McWATTERS. I set them for 1 o'clock.

Mr. BALL. You set them for 1 o'clock?

Mr. McWATTERS. 1 o'clock.

Mr. BALL. When you reached your end of the run in northeast Dallas then you set your transfers for 1 o'clock, did you?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is right, when I was coming back in.

Mr. BALL. And when you gave this transfer near Poydras and Elm----

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you pull out a transfer that had already been set for 1 o'clock time?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. In other words, I just reached up on my cutter and just tore off one which is already punched.

Mr. BALL. Then did you punch it again or was it already punched?

Mr. McWATTERS. It was already punched.

Mr. BALL. And you had punched it at the end of the line?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. So all you had to do is pull the transfer off of the pile of transfers and hand it to the man?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is correct.

Mr. BALL. And you had anticipated at the end of the line that when you got to about this point it would be a 1 o'clock transfer, is that correct?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, that is right.

In other words, there is enough time on it, just like I say, within a quarter of an hour, but----

Mr. BALL. When you got to the police station that day did they show you a transfer?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did you tell them about the transfer?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I recognized the transfer as being the transfer that I had issued.

Mr. BALL. How did you recognize it?

Mr. McWATTERS. By my punch mark on it.

Mr. BALL. And what about the line?

Mr. McWATTERS. The line?

Mr. BALL. Lakewood.

Mr. McWATTERS. The Lakewood punch on it, and where it was punched and Lakewood with my punch mark on it.

Mr. BALL. Were you able to identify it any further as a particular transfer you had given to any particular passenger?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir. Only----

Mr. BALL. Go ahead.

Mr. McWATTERS. I only gave two transfers going through town on that trip and that was at the one stop of where I gave the lady and the gentleman that got off the bus, I issued two transfers. But that was the only two transfers that were issued.

Mr. BALL. Did you tell the police in Dallas that?

Mr. McWATTERS. I don't remember whether I did or not.

Mr. BALL. But you do remember it now?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

(At this point Chief Justice Warren left the hearing room.)

Mr. BALL. All right. Now, what else did you do that day?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, let's see----

Mr. BALL. Did they show you any prisoner?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; when they stopped me over there and took me into the police department there, like I say, it was around 6:15 or 6:20, they took me down before the lineup there and asked me if I could identify anyone in that lineup as getting on my bus that day.

Mr. BALL. Did they take you down and show you a lineup?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You sat there with police officers and they brought men in there?

Mr. McWATTERS. They brought four men out. In other words, four men under the lights; in other words, they was all----

Mr. BALL. All the same age?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir; they were different ages, different sizes and different heights. And they asked me if I could identify any man in particular there, and I told them that I couldn't identify any man in particular, but there was one man there that was about the size of the man. Now, I was referring back, after they done showed me this transfer at that time and I knew which trip, that I went through town on at that time, in other words, on the Lakewood trip and just like I recalled, I only put out two transfers and I told them that there was one man in the lineup was about the size and the height and complexion of a man that got on my bus, but as far as positively identifying the man I could not do it.

Mr. BALL. What was the size and the height and complexion of the man that knocked on the window of this bus?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I would say, just like I told the police, to me he was just a medium-sized man. To me he was, I would say, not, I wouldn't call him--just of average weight, and I would say a light-complected, to the best of my knowledge.

Mr. BALL. When you say "average weight" what do you mean?

Mr. McWATTERS. I figured just like I saw, the man, he looked like to me the best way I can describe him would be 135 or 140 pounds.

Mr. BALL. What about height?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, just like I told them, it looked like to me he would probably be five-seven or five-eight, in that vicinity.

Mr. BALL. Anyway, you were not able to identify any man in the lineup as the passenger?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. As the passenger who had gotten on?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. You said there was one man who closely resembled in height, weight and color?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is right.

Mr. BALL. Do you know who that was?

Mr. McWATTERS. Just like I told them, I didn't know who was who or anything.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever learn who that person was?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I don't know whether that was really the man or not, I don't know.

Mr. BALL. I see.

Now, I have a map here.

(Discussion off the record.)

Representative FORD. All right, proceed.

Mr. BALL. You remember you told us about the man that knocked on the window of the door of your bus just before you got to Griffin, wasn't it?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; along about the vicinity of Griffin Street, it comes to.

Mr. BALL. You let him on the bus, and he paid his fare, how much is that fare?

Mr. McWATTERS. It is 23 cents.

Mr. BALL. 23 cents, and you went about down almost to Poydras.

Mr. McWATTERS. Almost, between Poydras and Lamar.

Mr. BALL. Between Poydras and Lamar, closer to Lamar than to Poydras?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And a man got on. Was it the same man?

Mr. McWATTERS. That was the same man who got on the bus that I picked up, in other words.

Mr. BALL. And the man you gave the transfer to?

Mr. McWATTERS. The man I gave the transfer to when the woman--in other words, when the man that got on Griffin Street there got off at the same place she did.

Mr. BALL. And he was only on the bus about 2 blocks?

Mr. McWATTERS. Two blocks was the only distance.

Mr. BALL. How long did it take you to go those 2 blocks?

Mr. McWATTERS. Now, he paid as far as from St. Paul Street. I made--there wasn't any traffic holding me up whatsoever, I come on right down to where I picked the man up there, in other words, about Field, and that is where the traffic was starting to back up to. So the best of my knowledge I would say it took me 3 or 4 minutes to get down there, so I will just have to say it was in the vicinity of around 12:40.

Mr. BALL. In other words, how long was the man on your bus, the man who got on, about Griffin and got off and you gave him the transfer, approximately?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, he got on, and when he got on, I made that one block, and then the other, well, I would be safe in saying he wasn't on there 5 minutes.

Mr. BALL. And you think he got off or on around 12:40?

Mr. McWATTERS. 12:40 that is the best.

Mr. BALL. What time did you say he got on approximately?

Mr. McWATTERS. On the bus?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I would say in the vicinity from where I left up there it would be probably it took me, I would say, 3 minutes to come, let's see, it would be Ervay, Akard and Field, that is about 3 blocks there where I left my time point which I would say just a rough estimation it would be with no traffic would be 2 or 3 minutes, I would say 3 minutes anyway.

So, it must have been somewheres 12:39 or--so.

Mr. BALL. When he got on the bus?

Mr. McWATTERS. 12:40.

Mr. BALL. And then he was on the bus about how many minutes?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, just like I say he wasn't on the bus over 4 or 5 minutes, in other words, just made that 1 block there, and in other words, when the traffic stopped, well, that is when he got off the bus.

Representative FORD. During the time he was on the bus this man rapped at your door or was your door open, and spoke up and said that the President had been shot?

Mr. McWATTERS. He was on the bus, you mean was the door open?

Representative FORD. No. You previously testified that while you were stalled or jammed up in the traffic----

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. A man came to the door of the bus and indicated by word of mouth----

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. That the President had been shot.

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. Now, was the man to whom you issued the transfer on the bus at that time?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. Now, the man who spoke up and said that the President had been shot, how loudly did he say that?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, he said it loud enough that I guess everybody on the bus heard him when he stepped up in the bus.

Representative FORD. In other words, that would be your best impression or best recollection that whoever said this, that the President had been shot, said it loudly enough for not only you but the other bus passengers to hear it?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. Because he stepped up in the bus and when he made the statement in other words, he said that the President had been shot, because I am pretty sure everybody--he said it to the fact. I think that everybody, there might have been some, if there was anybody in the extreme back of the bus, might not have heard it, but I think anyone who was near the front part of the bus could have.

Representative FORD. But at that time when this man made this statement, there was a teenager sitting in the first cross seat on the right-hand side of the bus?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. And the man who had gotten on the bus to whom you later issued the transfer, was sitting in the second?

Mr. McWATTERS. In the second seat.

Representative FORD. What is the distance from the door of the bus where the man was standing who made this statement to the second cross seat?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I would say, let's see, it would be I would say 6 or 8 feet.

Representative FORD. Was he sitting alone in the second cross seat?

Mr. McWATTERS. He was sitting alone.

Representative FORD. Did you notice any reaction on the part of any of your passengers to this comment by this man who made this statement?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, the only reaction that I knew is when he got up and said that, well, that is when the lady got off first, which she jumped up and got her suitcase and said, in other words, made a remark to something. "I am afraid you are going to be tied up here in this traffic and I want to get off."

Representative FORD. Where was this lady sitting who got up and asked for this transfer?

Mr. McWATTERS. Now, this lady was sitting behind me, in other words, I am the driver.

Representative FORD. On the left-hand side of the bus looking forward?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; in other words, it is a cross seat. I mean a side seat, in other words, like the driver sitting here, the first seat is the one that runs parallel with the bus, in other words.

Representative FORD. Well now, the seat in which the lady was sitting would be parallel to the second cross seat on the other side of the bus?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, in other words----

Representative FORD. It would be on the same line?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. The first seat would be ahead--the first seat on the right-hand side of the bus would be ahead of the seat where the lady was sitting?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, you mean the lady, I am referring to who got off first?

Representative FORD. Yes.

Mr. McWATTERS. No, the lady--I was sitting in the driver's seat, she was sitting right behind me, in other words, facing out his way.

Representative FORD. But she obviously heard what the man said about the President being shot?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. There is no doubt in your mind she heard that?

Mr. McWATTERS. I wouldn't think so because when she got up and stated she wanted to get off----

Representative FORD. Was she any further from the man who made this statement about the President being shot than the man who was sitting in the second cross seat?

Mr. McWATTERS. She was closer to the man actually than the man that got off with her was.

Representative FORD. How many feet or how much difference?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, the lady in other words, from the door here, it is just two cross seats, and two seats where you sit sideways and then the two seats in which he would be back here.

Representative FORD. Could you diagram that as best as you can?

Mr. BELIN. Congressman, we have a diagram. We have a picture of the side of the bus.

Mr. McWATTERS. Right here.

Representative FORD. Sit down.

Mr. McWATTERS. You can see it from this point right here, in other words. You see this cross seat, in other words, these first two right here, the driver's seat, you see the first two seats there, in other words.

Representative FORD. Could you sit down and mark it?

Mr. McWATTERS. This is the inside, let's see, this is the driver right here. Here is your cross seat right here. Here, about back here, is where the lady got off who was sitting on this seat.

Representative FORD. Will you mark that with an "L"?

Mr. McWATTERS. In other words, right here.

Representative FORD. Where was the man in the first cross seat sitting?

Mr. McWATTERS. Right here is the first. Right here is where the man that was sitting, got off, in this seat right here, I believe it is.

Representative FORD. Will you mark that "M" where the man who was sitting also got off who got the transfer?

Mr. BALL. Maybe we had better use a black pen that will show better on that glazed surface.

Representative FORD. This is where the man was sitting who you issued the transfer to at the same time the lady was issued the transfer?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. And the teenager was sitting in what seat?

Mr. McWATTERS. Right here.

Representative FORD. Will you mark that "O"?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. Where was the man standing who came to the bus and said the President had been shot?

Mr. McWATTERS. Right here.

Representative FORD. On the step?

Mr. McWATTERS. On the step. I guess, I presume this would be the second step there. To the best of my recollection he stepped up on the first step.

Representative FORD. Mark that "P."

Mr. McWATTERS. "P."

Representative FORD. Now, after the man who was standing at "P" said the President was shot, what did the lady do who was sitting in "L"?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, the lady, she had a suitcase sitting right there beside me and she left. When the lady got up and said she would like to get off the bus, and that she was going to walk to the Union Station and asked me if I would give her a transfer in case that I caught up with her, and asked me if I would pick her up.

Representative FORD. You gave her a transfer?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. What happened?

Mr. McWATTERS. She got off and by the time when she was talking to me that is when he got up, this gentleman here in the seat got up, at seat "M" got off. In other words, the door was never closed of the bus from the time the gentleman stepped up in the door of that there, in other words, when he said what he did, and got on back in his car, in other words, the lady got off, and the man got off, too, both at the same stop.

In other words, the bus hadn't moved at that stop.

Mr. BALL. I would like to mark this as the next exhibit, Commission's exhibit, which will be the diagram of the bus with the initials "M," "O," "L," "P," will be marked as Commission's Exhibit 373.

Representative FORD. It will be so admitted.

(The diagram referred to was marked Commission's Exhibit No. 373 for identification and received in evidence.)

Mr. BALL. And a photograph of the interior of the bus, I would like to have marked as 374.

And a diagram of the bus itself showing front and side as 375.

(The photograph and diagram referred to were marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 374 and 375, respectively, and received in evidence.)

Mr. BALL. I will hand you a photograph of the exterior of the bus.

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; in other words, that is the same bus number.

Mr. BALL. That is right.

Mr. McWATTERS. That is the bus it was.

Mr. BALL. That is the bus. Number----

Mr. McWATTERS. 433.

Representative FORD. So admitted.

Mr. BALL. These are all admitted.

Now, we have this map which is Commission's Exhibit 371. Can you show me your starting point which is where you started your time on Elm and what street?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is Elm and St. Paul.

Mr. BALL. Will you mark an "X" there with your black pen, or let's take red pen this time for you, on this same map, here it is right there, that is where you commenced your time, is that right?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Put an "O" there.

Mr. McWATTERS. Put an "O" here.

Mr. BALL. Just circle that intersection.

Mr. McWATTERS. O.K.

Mr. BALL. Now, you went along Elm, westerly along Elm?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is right----

Mr. BALL. Put a "P" about the place where the man knocked on the window of your door of your bus and got on. Here is Griffin.

Mr. McWATTERS. This is Griffin right here, mark that with a "P".

Mr. BALL. And put an "R" at the place where the man got off the bus.

Mr. McWATTERS. Let's see.

Mr. BALL. Here is Lamar.

Mr. McWATTERS. Here is Lamar here. I want to find Poydras.

Mr. BALL. That is right in here.

Mr. McWATTERS. That would be, in other words, about the center here would be, in other words, a little bit closer to Lamar than----

Mr. BALL. Put an "R" there to indicate the approximate position where he got off.

"O" is where you started, so you had better raise those up to Elm. The place he got on and the place he got off.

Perhaps, if you would just draw a line up and put your "R" it would be easier.

Mr. McWATTERS. On Griffin here now that is where you want----

Mr. BALL. Where he got on, wherever it was.

Mr. McWATTERS. Is that where you want the "P"?

Mr. BALL. That is where he got on?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes. O.K. right here.

Mr. BALL. And where he got off "R".

Mr. McWATTERS. That is a very short block right in between Poydras and Lamar here.

Mr. BALL. All right.

Now, let's use the map here. You made your start at St. Paul and Elm didn't you, and went west.

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, you picked up a man who knocked on the window of your bus at a place in the street that was not a bus stop, is that right?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is correct.

Mr. BALL. And its approximate location was where?

Mr. McWATTERS. At Griffin Street.

Mr. BALL. And you have marked that as "P"?

Mr. McWATTERS. Marked that as "P".

Mr. BALL. That same man stayed on your bus until you got to what location

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, the location was between Poydras and Lamar Street.

In other words, I would say closer to Lamar than to Poydras.

Mr. BALL. At that point he got off the bus?

Mr. McWATTERS. He got off the bus.

Mr. BALL. And you gave him a transfer?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And you have marked that "R", is that correct?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is right, yes.

Mr. BALL. There is another map I would like to show you that hasn't been marked yet as a Commission Exhibit, and I will have that marked as 376, a map of Dallas.

You have already marked on this map, haven't you, or it has been marked in advance then by someone.