Part 4

Mr. MARTIN. Let's see, once in 1962. I had some gentlemen from New Orleans with me. They were visiting Dallas on business at the Inn of the Six Flags, and they wanted to see the Carousel.

Mr. DULLES. That is what you mean by his place?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes. So I called Jack Ruby and asked if it would be all right if I brought them down. We stayed approximately an hour and a half.

The other time was during the daytime, let's see, as it was then, I had--I was walking in that area and just stopped in to say hello. The club was closed at that time, not closed for business but it was before opening hours.

Mr. REDLICH. Those are the only times you have been in Jack Ruby's business establishment?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. Do you consider yourself a friend of his?

Mr. MARTIN. No. An acquaintance.

Mr. REDLICH. Have you gone out socially?

Mr. MARTIN. No. He came out to the Inn one time with some little gimmick. It is called a Detwist Board. It is quite a piece of plywood about like this with a round plate on the bottom of it, seated in ball bearings and you are supposed to stand on this thing to twist, and came out to ask me to see who to ask at the park to merchandise it, the Six Flags over Texas Amusement Park, and I told him. Now, whether he went over there or not, I don't know.

Mr. REDLICH. I understand that you have had a conversation with an aid of General Walker concerning the General Walker incident.

Would you tell the Commission about that?

Mr. MARTIN. They contacted us----

Mr. REDLICH. Who is "they"?

Mr. MARTIN. General Walker's aide, Mr. Moore or Morse, a tall thin gentleman, about 55 or 60, and wanted actually an interview with Marina which we didn't think was necessary.

They came out to John Thorne's office and we sat and talked. They were of the opinion--what they were trying to do was find out who else was involved--this was right after the announcement was made in the paper about Lee Oswald shooting at Walker. They were trying to find out who else was involved because General Walker is still in fear of his life.

Mr. DULLES. This was some time before the 22d.

Mr. MARTIN. No, it was after.

Mr. DULLES. After November 22?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir. This was after the announcement was made in the paper that----

Mr. DULLES. Oh, yes.

Mr. MARTIN. That Lee Oswald had attacked him.

Mr. DULLES. The actual attack was in April. This was after the newspaper announcement.

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. After the newspaper announcements that Lee had tried to kill him which was after the assassination?

Mr. MARTIN. That is correct.

Mr. DULLES. Yes.

Mr. MARTIN. And they just wanted verification actually that or to try to get verification as to how many people were involved, and we told them that there was just one person involved.

Mr. REDLICH. At the time did you ask Marina about this?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. And this is what she told you?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. The persons involved in the Walker incident?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes. She said that Lee did it alone without any help. There was no one with him.

Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, I have at this time no further questions other than those which may be suggested by a perusal of the records which you have forwarded to this Commission.

As we indicated in the brief recess earlier, Mr. Dulles is able to be here at 9 o'clock this evening, and I would envisage then a very brief session at which time your testimony would be completed.

Mr. MARTIN. All right.

Mr. REDLICH. Are there any questions that anyone would like to ask of Mr. Martin at this time?

The CHAIRMAN. Would you like to ask your client any questions?

Mr. LEECH. No. I am not going to make that mistake.

(Laughter.)

The CHAIRMAN. All right.

Mr. DULLES. I have no questions. I will reserve them for tonight. I don't think I have any further questions.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Rhyne, do you have any questions you would like to ask. Mr. Rankin, are you through for the day?

Mr. RANKIN. Until 9 o'clock.

The CHAIRMAN. Well then, gentlemen, we will adjourn until 9 o'clock.

(Whereupon, at 5:15 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)

Evening Session

TESTIMONY OF JAMES HERBERT MARTIN RESUMED

The President's Commission reconvened at 9:20 p.m.

Mr. DULLES. The Committee will come to order.

Will you continue with the testimony?

Mr. REDLICH. Thank you, Mr. Dulles.

Mr. Martin, at our last session I asked you whether you knew Jack Ruby, and you replied that you did. You indicated the brief contact that you have had with him and the two times, I believe, that you have been to his business establishment?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. Apart from your own personal contact with Jack Ruby, do you have any other information about him and his activities which you would like to present before this Commission?

Mr. MARTIN. No, nothing that I definitely know about him. It is just he is a city character. He is very friendly to everyone.

Mr. REDLICH. Please understand I am not asking you for rumors or that type of thing.

Mr. MARTIN. No, I know. Well, just what I know of him, he seems very friendly to everyone, and he is always around. You are liable to see him anywhere.

Mr. REDLICH. Has he ever been to the motel that you have?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, I mentioned that.

Mr. REDLICH. Oh, yes.

Mr. MARTIN. He brought that twist board out there one time.

Mr. REDLICH. Never been there as a guest?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. I hand you a copy of an invoice for a Revere recorder and a 1,200-foot reel of recording tape, and ask you if you have ever seen this?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes. That is a tape recorder that I rented and recorded the----

Mr. REDLICH. I will ask you about it shortly. I would just like to know if you are familiar with it.

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Chairman, I am marking this as Commission Exhibit No. 332, and ask that it be admitted in evidence.

Mr. DULLES. Any objection?

Mr. LEECH. No, sir.

Mr. DULLES. It may be admitted.

(The tape recorder and tape invoice referred to were marked Commission's Exhibit No. 332 for identification and received in evidence.)

Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, I hand you Commission Exhibit No. 332, and ask you to tell the Commission the conditions under which this invoice arose?

Mr. MARTIN. We had Marina's manuscript interpreted by Ilya Mamantov, and this was part of it. He was only able to interpret about half of it.

Mr. REDLICH. He interpreted it and put it on tape?

Mr. MARTIN. And we recorded that on tape as he interpreted it.

Mr. DULLES. How do you mean interpreted?

Mr. MARTIN. He read it in English?

Mr. DULLES. Oh, I see, translated it.

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. From Russian into English?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. When I asked you this afternoon about your knowledge as to the accuracy of that story, I take it your reply was based upon this translation?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. And this only encompasses about half of the entire story, is that right?

Mr. MARTIN. It is more than half, it is about 15 pages, I guess.

Mr. REDLICH. Did she consult with you at all in the preparation of that story?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. And there is nothing on this tape other than the English translation of that Russian story?

Mr. MARTIN. That is true.

Mr. DULLES. Do we have that translation as well as the copy of the original?

Mr. REDLICH. Yes, Mr. Chairman, we have the original in Russian and then it was translated by Mr. Gopadze, of the Secret Service.

Mr. MARTIN. Actually our translation is very poor. He was not able to translate properly into English a lot of the phrases.

Mr. DULLES. Who is "he," Illa? Isn't that Ilya, by the way?

Mr. MARTIN. I am not sure.

Mr. DULLES. That is generally the Russian, I don't know.

Mr. RANKIN. That is right.

Mr. MARTIN. It might be.

Mr. DULLES. Yes.

Mr. MARTIN. But he is professor at SMU. He has a list of titles that long. He is very well thought of. I think he works for Sun Oil Company, and is a well-respected individual. His wife and his mother, I believe, teach Russian also. I think his mother taught Mrs. Paine a good deal of her Russian.

Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, I would like to show you Commission Exhibit No. 325 which was introduced earlier today. Mr. Leech, I believe you have a photostat of this. If you could hand it to me during the course of this questioning. I would appreciate it.

Mr. LEECH. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. Thank you.

Could you tell the Commission what this document purports to state, and then I will ask you about individual items.

Mr. MARTIN. These are contracts that we have made both in writing and verbally for Marina Oswald's right, her story rights.

Mr. REDLICH. And the first item appearing on Commission Exhibit No. 325 is a contract with Texitalia Films.

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. Would you describe the terms and conditions of that contract?

Mr. MARTIN. Texitalia Films is planning a 60-minute technicolor documentary to start. They will pay $75,000 for World-Wide movie and the TV rights.

Mr. DULLES. Excuse me, is this a documentary of Marina's life?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes. Any movie or television appearances Marina would be paid $7,500 plus expenses for each appearance. Then for each personal appearance, for instance, the film opens in St. Louis on such and such a date and they would like for her to be there to make a personal appearance for the showing, the opening of the film, she would receive $1,500 plus expenses for each public appearance of that nature.

Mr. REDLICH. And this contract according to this exhibit was signed on February 11, 1964?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. LEECH. By her?

Mr. MARTIN. No, by me acting for her.

Mr. REDLICH. By you acting on behalf of Mrs. Oswald?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, in accordance with my contract with her.

Mr. REDLICH. The second item appearing here is a contract with Life magazine. Would you tell the Commission about that?

Mr. MARTIN. Life magazine purchased the rights, North American rights on a photograph of Lee Harvey Oswald with a rifle and pistol, primarily for their use on a cover issue.

Mr. DULLES. That is what appeared on the recent cover issue, I guess, it was 2 weeks ago.

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir.

Now, that $5,000 has been paid. We have the $5,000 in an escrow account.

Mr. REDLICH. Did you actually have in your possession the photograph, a copy of which appeared on the cover of Life magazine?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Could you tell us how this contract was consummated, in view of the fact that Life magazine apparently printed on its cover a photograph which you never possessed?

Mr. MARTIN. They knew the photographs belonged to Marina. They have a common law copyright, and the only way they could legally use the film is to purchase the rights from Marina.

Mr. REDLICH. Did Life magazine indicate to you where they obtained the photograph?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Have you had conversations with other publications concerning that photograph?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes. I made the contact with the London Daily Mirror for the purchase of the British Commonwealth rights on that same photograph, and they guaranteed $2,200 plus 50-50 split on what they sold in the Commonwealth. It was restricted to the Commonwealth only.

However, the London Daily Mail came out with the photograph prior to the Mirror, and I was informed by Mr. Weggand of the London Daily Express that the Detroit Free Press had sold this photograph to the London Daily Mail for $500.

Mr. REDLICH. Do you have any idea how the Detroit Free Press obtained this photograph?

Mr. MARTIN. No. I talked to Ken Murray, who I was informed was the attorney for the Detroit Free Press.

Mr. REDLICH. Where did you talk to him?

Mr. MARTIN. At his home in Detroit.

Mr. REDLICH. By phone?

Mr. MARTIN. By telephone. And he stated that the photograph was public property, and not covered under common law copyright. I asked him where he got the photo, and he said he got it at the same place as Life did, through a leak in the Commission. I talked to Life magazine attorney--I can't remember his name. It is a very odd name. It begins with an "S". Now, Murray said that Life had informed him that they had gotten it from a leak through the Commission, and I contacted Life and he denied saying anything of the sort to Murray.

However, Murray insisted that that is where he got that and he figured it was public domain.

Mr. REDLICH. At the start of today's testimony when you mentioned the possibility of a leak with regard to this photograph, something that you said prior to the actual start of hearings, Mr. Rankin and I commented on that assertion.

Would you tell the Commission what we said?

Mr. MARTIN. That there was definitely not a leak in the Commission, and that you would certainly find out what Murray was talking about.

Mr. REDLICH. Did you talk to an editor of the Detroit Free Press with regard to this photograph?

Mr. MARTIN. I called at night. It was at night, and I asked for the news editor. He was not in, so I talked to a reporter, and he couldn't say anything about it. He referred me to Ken Murray and gave me his home telephone number.

Mr. REDLICH. The next item on Commission Exhibit No. 325 has reference to Stern Magazine.

Would you tell the Commission about that, please?

Mr. MARTIN. Stern Magazine we have been working with since the middle of December. They have been quite patient actually. For $12,500 they wanted Marina's memoirs and photographs, available photographs for use in Germany and Italy only. They wanted exclusive use in those two countries. Then they would endeavor to sell these same memoirs and pictures to other European countries, limiting it only to European countries, and take a 30 percent commission on any sales that they made, the remaining 70 percent going to Marina.

Mr. REDLICH. Has this contract been signed?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. Do you know when it was signed? Can you approximate the date?

Mr. MARTIN. I confirmed it by wire to them. It is in the exhibits.

Mr. REDLICH. We have not introduced----

Mr. MARTIN. You haven't come to that yet.

Mr. REDLICH. We do not intend to introduce the specific documents into the record, just this summary.

Mr. LEECH. Give him an approximate date.

Mr. REDLICH. You say it was confirmed by telegram.

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, it was confirmed by telegram to Spiegelberg.

Mr. LEECH. When?

Mr. MARTIN. In New York. December 16 at 2:45 p.m.

Mr. REDLICH. The next item on Commission Exhibit No. 325 also refers to Stern Magazine, an item of $2,650.

Could you comment on that?

Mr. MARTIN. This was a recent development wherein since they could not send an author in to talk to Marina, they purchased seven photographs for a total of $2,650, to take the memoirs later.

However, they will not hold off the memoirs forever.

Mr. REDLICH. These seven photographs are photographs of what?

Mr. MARTIN. Of Marina and Lee Harvey Oswald together and separate.

Mr. REDLICH. These were photographs which were not turned over to the Dallas police?

Mr. MARTIN. No. They were photographs that we were given prints of by the FBI. The FBI sent prints of these photographs to us.

Mr. REDLICH. Am I correct in assuming that all of the photographs which were in the possession of Marina Oswald and Lee Harvey Oswald, either in his apartment or in the Paine's apartment, were turned over to the Dallas police?

Is that right?

Mr. MARTIN. As far as I know.

Mr. REDLICH. To the best of your knowledge?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. And that any photographs which you have and which have been the basis of any contract are copies which were made available to you by some law enforcement authority?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes. Now, there was a check, there was a $250 cash down payment made on this $2,650. Then a check for $2,400; the check was stopped, payment on the check was stopped because of a letter written by William McKenzie saying that I had no authority to sign any contracts whatsoever for Marina, and that if they did use anything that I had sold them, litigation would follow immediately. So consequently they stopped payment on the check. I still have the check. It is still attached to the letter that was sent with it.

Mr. DULLES. Could I ask who is that check made out to?

Mr. MARTIN. Made out to me.

Mr. DULLES. To you as agent?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. Or to you just in your name?

Mr. MARTIN. I think it is just made out to me.

Mr. DULLES. I don't know if it is important.

Mr. LEECH. You go ahead and I'll find it.

Mr. MARTIN. Under the contract all checks were supposed to be made payable to me. Then I would deduct my fee and forward the balance to Marina.

Mr. REDLICH. The next item on Commission Exhibit No. 325 refers to Meredith Press.

Mr. MARTIN. The Meredith Press is a book publisher with their main office in Des Moines, Iowa. I had talked with Mr. Ted Purdy at great length and on numerous occasions by phone. We had negotiated world book rights for Marina Oswald's story. For this Meredith Press would pay a $25,000 advance to her. Then on the first printing would be a 10 percent commission of the retail price of the book.

On the second printing would be 12-1/2 percent commission, and on the third and succeeding printings it would be 15 percent commission.

Now, of course, the commissions were to be deducted from the advance.

Mr. REDLICH. And this was to be her life story?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. Had you discussed with Marina at all the contents of this book? Had you started making any preparations for writing?

Mr. MARTIN. No. I am not a writer, and wouldn't know the first thing to do about a book. But we had negotiated with one writer, Isaac Don Levine, who Meredith Press felt would be the best writer available for this type of book because of the Russian attachment.

Mr. REDLICH. When you told us this morning of your initial concern over the Nixon shooting incident, did it relate to these various agreements that you have been working on concerning the sale of Marina Oswald's story?

Mr. MARTIN. Did it relate to them?

Mr. REDLICH. Yes.

Mr. MARTIN. How do you mean?

Mr. REDLICH. Were you concerned about the publicity, the effect of the publicity of the Nixon incident on these various agreements which you were negotiating at the time?

Mr. MARTIN. No. As a matter of fact, it would enhance the price of it.

For instance, the Post magazine, the Saturday Evening Post, said that they would like to buy American serial rights if there was something in Marina's story that the Commission did not know.

Mr. REDLICH. When did they tell you this?

Mr. MARTIN. Around the first of the year I guess.

Mr. REDLICH. Around the first of the year. Did Marina know about this?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. This is the Saturday Evening Post you are talking about?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes. I talked to a Mr. Black.

Mr. REDLICH. And the Saturday Evening Post said to you that they would buy the serial rights provided there was some information which would not be known to the Commission?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes. I told them there was no realm that would apply, and we closed negotiations.

Mr. REDLICH. And you say you didn't relate this fact at all to Marina Oswald?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. These negotiations with the Post.

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Was there in fact to the best of your knowledge material which she did not in fact relate to this Commission?

Mr. MARTIN. Not to my knowledge other than the Nixon affair.

Mr. REDLICH. And were you aware at the time she completed her testimony here that she had not related this information to the Commission?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. Was there any connection between her failure to tell the Commission of the Nixon incident and the negotiations, the temporary negotiations that you had had with the Saturday Evening Post?

Mr. MARTIN. No, none whatsoever. That was closed off at least 30 days before she testified.

Mr. REDLICH. Was there any attempt on your part or anyone acting on Marina Oswald's part that you know of to negotiate the sale of the information concerning the Nixon shooting incident?

Mr. MARTIN. No, not to my knowledge.

Mr. REDLICH. When Marina--did Marina ever give you an explanation for why she did not tell the Commission about the Nixon incident?

Mr. MARTIN. No. I have never talked to her about that other than the first time that she told me about it. I asked John Thorne if she had mentioned it. I didn't discuss it with her.

Mr. REDLICH. And since Marina Oswald's return from Washington after having testified here, you say you have never discussed the Nixon incident with Marina Oswald in any way?

Mr. MARTIN. No. I probably would have had there been sufficient time. Of course, she left my home the following day after she got back from Washington.

Mr. REDLICH. When you say you probably would have, in what way?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, since she didn't mention it to the Commission, I feel the Commission should know about it.

Mr. DULLES. Did you know at this time she had not mentioned it to the Commission?

Mr. MARTIN. I asked John Thorne.

Mr. DULLES. Oh, you asked John Thorne?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. What did John Thorne say?

Mr. MARTIN. Said she had not mentioned it.

Mr. REDLICH. Did you ask John Thorne why she had not mentioned it?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Did John Thorne offer any information as to why she had not mentioned it?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Do you know whether John Thorne had urged her to mention it?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. John Thorne was aware of the Nixon incident prior to Marina Oswald's appearance before this Commission, was he not?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. Because you had apparently told him about that shortly after you learned about it in January.

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. Did you discuss the Nixon incident with Robert Oswald after Marina Oswald's appearance before this Commission in February?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. You had not?

Mr. MARTIN. I don't know if I discussed it with him prior to the Commission's testimony or not. I may or I may not have. I don't know. I don't know whether I mentioned it to him or not.

Mr. REDLICH. Coming back to Commission Exhibit No. 325, the next item under London Daily Mirror, am I correct in assuming that this is, that this item refers to the rifle photo which you discussed earlier in your testimony tonight?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, that is right.

Mr. REDLICH. Do you have anything to add with regard to that rifle photo that you have not already told us?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Did you discuss with Marina Oswald at any time this rifle photo and the circumstances under which it was taken.

Mr. MARTIN. I asked her at one time why he wanted a photograph taken of that type, and she said she didn't know. He just wanted pictures taken that way.

Mr. REDLICH. Did she tell you when this photograph was taken in relationship to any other incidents such as the General Walker incident or the Richard Nixon incident?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Did you know where the photograph was taken?

Mr. MARTIN. I don't know, I don't even know if it was in Oak Cliff or not. I have an idea that it was in Oak Cliff but I don't know whether I know that or whether I have read it.

Mr. REDLICH. When you say Oak Cliff, some of us don't live in Dallas.

Mr. MARTIN. It is a suburb of Dallas, a section of Dallas.

Mr. REDLICH. Are you referring to the area where the Neely Street house was located?

To refresh your recollection, Mr. Martin, the Oswalds lived in two places in Dallas. One was on Elsbeth Street and the other on Neely. Are they both in Oak Cliff?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, Elsbeth Street is right around the corner from Neely Street, I believe they lived in an apartment on Elsbeth.

It was a group of apartments in one building, and on Neely Street, I think, that was similar to a duplex.

Mr. REDLICH. And you are not certain as to where this photograph which was the subject of these negotiations was taken?