Part 39

Mr. WHALEY. No, sir; it wouldn't have at all, except that I said anybody who wasn't sure could have picked out the right one just for that. It didn't aid me because I knew he was the right one as soon as I saw him.

Mr. BALL. You don't think that that in any way influenced your identification?

Mr. WHALEY. No, sir; it did not. When you drive a taxi, sir, as long as I have, you can almost look at a man, in fact, you have to, to be able to tell whether you can trust or whether you can't trust him, what he is.

Now, like you got in my taxicab and I looked you over and you told me just wait for me here and went in the building, well, I will have to know whether I could just say, "OK, sir." Or say, "Will you leave me a $5 bill, sir?"

When you drive a taxi that long you learn to judge people and what I actually thought of the man when he got in was that he was a wino who had been off his bottle for about two days, that is the way he looked, sir, that was my opinion of him.

Mr. BALL. What was there about his appearance that gave you that impression? Hair mussed?

Mr. WHALEY. Just the slow way he walked up. He didn't talk. He wasn't in any hurry. He wasn't nervous or anything.

Mr. BALL. He didn't run?

Mr. WHALEY. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did he look dirty?

Mr. WHALEY. He looked like his clothes had been slept in, sir, but he wasn't actually dirty. The T-shirt was a little soiled around the collar but the bottom part of it was white. You have to know those winos, or they will get in and ride with you and there isn't nothing you can do but call the police, the city gets the fine and you get nothing.

Mr. BALL. Who was the other cab driver?

Mr. WHALEY. I don't know his name, sir. He worked for the same company but he works out of the Oak Cliff branch. They say he was the one who saw him kill the policeman, the one who used the policeman's microphone.

Mr. BALL. Is that Mr. Scoggins?

Mr. WHALEY. What is his name?

Mr. BALL. Scoggins.

Mr. WHALEY. It could have been, sir.

Mr. BALL. You don't know him?

Mr. WHALEY. I just know he drives taxi 213. He works out of Oak Cliff branch.

Mr. BALL. I would like to have a copy of the manifest temporarily marked 370.

Mr. WHALEY. You may have it, sir.

Mr. BALL. Commission 370, and offer it into evidence and ask leave to submit the original, if it is brought in, when it is brought here by the FBI.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes, it may be admitted.

(The manifest referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 370 for identification and received in evidence.)

Mr. BALL. This will be 370.

Could we excuse Mr. Whaley now? There are two pieces of evidence to be here and they are not here.

The CHAIRMAN. Excuse him and we will take the other witness.

Mr. BALL. We will excuse him and take the other witness.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Whaley, will you wait outside until we get the other exhibits and we will finish with you very shortly.

Mr. McWatters, would you be seated please.

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. The Commission is meeting today to take further testimony concerning the events surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy, and it is our understanding that you have some information that would bear on that subject, and that is the reason for our asking you to come here and testify.

Would you raise your right hand to be sworn please.

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. McWATTERS. I do.

TESTIMONY OF CECIL J. McWATTERS

The CHAIRMAN. Would you be seated please, and Mr. Ball will conduct the interrogation.

Mr. BALL. Mr. McWatters.

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What is your business?

Mr. McWATTERS. I am a bus driver.

Mr. BALL. How long have you been a bus driver?

Mr. McWATTERS. Let's see, this coming September will be 19 years.

Mr. BALL. Whom do you work for?

Mr. McWATTERS. The Dallas Transit Company.

Mr. BALL. How long have you worked for the Dallas Transit Company?

Mr. McWATTERS. It will be 19 years in September, I believe.

Mr. BALL. Where do you live?

Mr. McWATTERS. 2523 Blyth Drive, Dallas, Tex.

Mr. BALL. On November 22,1963, were you on duty as a driver?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What kind of a bus were you driving?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I was driving a 44-passenger, let's see, it is a 44-passenger city bus made by White, I believe is the maker of the bus.

Mr. BALL. What hours of work were you assigned that day?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I was assigned that day on the particular run from 11:52 until 2:27.

Mr. BALL. What was your run?

Mr. McWATTERS. Do you mean the name of the run?

Mr. BALL. What course did you take, what part of Dallas did you drive in.

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I went from----

Mr. BALL. Describe it generally, you don't need to go into any detail.

Mr. McWATTERS. I would say from northeast Dallas in the Lakewood addition of Dallas to the Oak Cliff addition of Dallas, which is, would be southwest.

Mr. BALL. Would that be northeast to southwest?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is right.

Mr. BALL. There is a place near the downtown area of Dallas where you timed your run, wasn't it?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; I have after I get into town, when I get into the downtown part of it, now St. Paul Street is my official time point going in, where they have a supervisor that stays at this checkpoint there, to check all incoming vehicles.

Mr. BALL. You would be coming in from northeast Dallas at that time?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; I am coming in from the Lakewood addition of Dallas, which I came in on. The main thoroughfare is Gaston Avenue.

Mr. BALL. And you got to the intersection of what street and St. Paul when you were timed by your dispatcher?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is Elm, Elm Street.

Mr. BALL. Elm and St. Paul?

Mr. McWATTERS. Elm and St. Paul.

Mr. BALL. If you are ahead of time do you stop there until you are assigned a time to get in?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, sir; no sir; you don't--a man he has his watch and schedule. If you are ahead of your schedule he will come out and stop you, in other words, and ask you if your watch is right or what is it, you know, the idea of you being there. There is no excuse, you know for a man being ahead of his schedule.

Mr. BALL. If you are ahead of your schedule does he stop you there until you leave?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, that is right.

Mr. BALL. What time are you due, according to your schedule, to leave the corner of St. Paul and Elm?

Mr. McWATTERS. 12:36.

Mr. BALL. What time did you leave there that day?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I left there that day on time because coming into town that day, I guess everybody done went to, down to, see the parade, I didn't have over four or five passengers coming into downtown.

Mr. BALL. Were you ahead of your schedule?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I stopped about a block before--now, just a block before we get to St. Paul, there is a big theater there, and it has all loading zones, no parking there and a lot of times if we are a minute or two ahead of our schedule when we pull in in front of this theater before we get there in time, in other words, we kill a minute.

Mr. BALL. What did you do this day?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I was a little ahead of my schedule and I killed about a minute, I guess, before I went to cross St. Paul Street.

Mr. BALL. After your dispatcher checked you in what time did you leave that corner of St. Paul and Elm?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, the best I can remember I don't recall even picking up a passenger there. I think I discharged one lady passenger there on that, to the best I can recall, because I remember that I had, when I crossed Field Street, I think I had five passengers on my bus.

Mr. BALL. Well then, back to the question, what time did you leave that day, leave Elm and St. Paul?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I would have to say I left there around, in other words, 12:36 because I know I was on good time when I come in there.

Mr. BALL. And you think you left at the time you were supposed to leave?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I am almost positive I did, because, as I say, we generally come in on schedules on good time because from that street on is where we generally--for the next seven or eight blocks--is where we get all of our passengers going through the downtown area.

Mr. BALL. Had you heard any sirens before you got to St. Paul and Elm?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Do you know if your dispatcher keeps a written record?

Mr. McWATTERS. The only way he keeps a written record is if you are ahead of your schedule. He has a little pad, and if a man is ahead of his schedule, in other words, he writes, of course, we all go by badge numbers, in other words, he would write your badge number, your bus number, and if you was ahead of schedule he would write how much ahead of schedule you were, and----

Mr. BALL. Do you think he did anything, did he write anything up on you on that day?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir; the guy that we have down there now, if you are ahead of schedule he will come out, in other words, because he stands on the corner all the time, and if you are a minute or two ahead of your schedule he will come out and if nothing else, converse with you for a minute or two to see that you leave it on time and very seldom, I mean, if ever--of course, a report goes in on you, it goes against your record.

Mr. BALL. In other words, if he did make a record it would be by way of a reprimand to you?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. As you went on down Elm you left your post at St. Paul and Elm, did you hear any sirens?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you pick up any passengers?

Mr. McWATTERS. I picked up within a period of from the time I picked up two or three passengers, I can't recall just exactly which stop. I have after I leave St. Paul Street, I have Ervay Street and Akard Street, and Field Street which would be three stops where I can't recall that, exactly where I discharged or picked up passengers, because I had the few passengers that I had which I came into town with.

Mr. BALL. Well then, do you remember picking up a passenger at a place other than at a bus stop as you went down Elm?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

As I left Field Street, I pulled out into the, in other words, the first lane of traffic and traffic was beginning to back up then; in other words, it was blocked further down the street, and after I pulled out in it for a short distance there I come to a complete stop, and when I did, someone come up and beat on the door of the bus, and that is about even with Griffin Street.

In other words, it is a street that dead ends into Elm Street which there is no bus stop at this street, because I stopped across Field Street in the middle of the intersection and it is just a short distance onto Griffin Street, and that is when someone, a man, came up and knocked on the door of the bus, and I opened the door of the bus and he got on.

Mr. BALL. You were beyond Field and before you got to Griffin?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is right. It was along about even with Griffin Street before I was stopped in the traffic.

Mr. BALL. And that is about seven or eight blocks from the Texas Book Depository Building, isn't it?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. It would be seven, I would say that is seven, it would be about seven blocks.

Mr. BALL. From there?

Mr. McWATTERS. From there, yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did the man look like who knocked on your door and got on your bus?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I didn't pay any particular attention to him. He was to me just dressed in what I would call work clothes, just some type of little old jacket on, and I didn't pay any particular attention to the man when he got on.

Mr. BALL. Paid his fare, did he?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; he just paid his fare and sat down on the second cross seat on the right.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember whether or not you gave him a transfer?

Mr. McWATTERS. Not when he got on; no, sir.

Mr. BALL. You didn't. Did you ever give him a transfer?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; I gave him one about two blocks from where he got on.

Mr. BALL. Did he ask you for a transfer?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember what he said to you when he asked you for the transfer?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, the reason I recall the incident, I had--there was a lady that when I stopped in this traffic, there was a lady who had a suitcase and she said, "I have got to make a 1 o'clock train at Union Station," and she said, "I don't believe--from the looks of this traffic you are going to be held up."

She said, "Would you give me a transfer and I am going to walk on down," which is about from where I was at that time about 7 or 8 blocks to Union Station and she asked me if I would give her a transfer in case I did get through the traffic if I would pick her up on the way.

So, I said, "I sure will." So I gave her a transfer and opened the door and as she was going out the gentleman I had picked up about 2 blocks asked for a transfer and got off at the same place in the middle of the block where the lady did.

Mr. BALL. Where was that near, what intersection?

Mr. McWATTERS. It was the intersection near Lamar Street, it was near Poydras and Lamar Street. It is a short block, but the main intersection there is Lamar Street.

Mr. BALL. He had been on the bus about 2 blocks?

Mr. McWATTERS. About 2 blocks; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Up to that time had you heard any sirens?

Mr. McWATTERS. Not up until--now just about the time that, let's see, that is when I left Griffin, right about the time this gentleman got on the bus the traffic was starting and that was about the first that I can recall of hearing the sirens, but when, in other words, when they started it seemed to me like they was coming from all over town.

Mr. BALL. Did you have a radio in your bus?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear a radio from nearby cars announcing anything about the President's assassination?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, there was cars that were stopped alongside of the bus and I think someone raised the window but I couldn't hear. I never did hear anything outside of the----

Mr. BALL. Where were you when you first heard the President had been shot?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I was sitting in the bus, there was some gentleman in front of me in a car, and he came back and walked up to the bus and I opened the door and he said, "I have heard over my radio in my car that the President has been--" I believe he used the word--"has been shot."

Mr. BALL. Is that when you were stalled in traffic?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is right. That is when I was stalled right there.

Mr. BALL. Was that before or after the man got off the bus that asked for the transfer?

Mr. McWATTERS. That was before. In other words, at that time no one had gotten off the bus.

Mr. BALL. What was your location then, near what street?

Mr. McWATTERS. Between Poydras and Lamar, in other words, because I stayed stopped there for, I guess oh, 3 or 4 minutes anyway before I made any progress at that one stop right there and that is where the gentleman got off the bus. In fact, I was talking to the man, the man that come out of the car; in other words, he just stepped up in the door of the bus, and was telling me that what he had heard over his radio and that is when the lady who was standing there decided she would walk and when the other gentleman decided he would also get off at that point.

Mr. BALL. At that point.

What course did you take after that?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I still was going west, in other words, in the same direction, going west, in other words, towards Houston Street. In other words, I went there before I changed my course which was about, I would say, three or four blocks.

When I got to Houston Street, in other words, I turned to the left, which would be south----

Mr. BALL. You went by the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; I turned at the corner of Elm Street and Houston which this book store is on the opposite corner from where I changed course there.

Mr. BALL. Was traffic still heavy along there?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; the traffic was still tied up, but the police, they opened up a lane there, they had so many buses and everything that was tied up, they opened up, moved traffic around that they run quite a few of these buses through there.

In other words, from two blocks on this side of where the incident happened they had, in other words, they was turning all the traffic to the right and to the left, in other words, north and south.

Mr. BALL. You went on down to Houston viaduct then?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, I turned after they finally let--they weren't letting any cars through at that time but they just run a bunch of those buses through there.

Mr. BALL. Is there a bus stop in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL, Where do you stop for that intersection?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, you stop, in other words, on this side of the street.

Mr. BALL. You stop on the south side of, the southeast corner of the intersection?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

In other words, like you would be going, direct south towards the Building, the bus stop is on this corner over here on this side.

Mr. BALL. You mean the corner of Houston and Elm?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is right.

Mr. BALL. Which corner, north, south, east, west?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, it would be on the north.

Mr. BALL. North.

Mr. McWATTERS. On the north.

Mr. BALL. Here is a map and maybe you can show us where the bus stop is. This is Exhibit No. 371.

Mr. McWATTERS. In other words, this is south, in other words.

Mr. BALL. This is west. You are going west on Elm.

Mr. McWATTERS. In other words, I am going--right here is where the police had all traffic, they wasn't allowing anything to go any further than Market Street here.

In other words, all the traffic there they were moving was turning either to the right or left, on Market Street. But after they held us up there so long, of course, they run these buses in this right lane here and they did open up and let a bunch of these buses go right on down here to Houston, of course, a lot of them go straight on and a lot of them turn left to Houston Street, a lot of them go under the underpass here.

Mr. BALL. Wait a minute, you turned to the left?

Mr. McWATTERS. I turned to the left.

Mr. BALL. On Houston?

Mr. McWATTERS. In other words, my last stop, in other words at this corner right here on Record Street, all buses turning to the left have to stop at this corner right here.

Mr. BALL. At Record and Elm?

Mr. McWATTERS. At Record and Elm.

Mr. BALL. Do you have a bus stop at Houston and Elm?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; there is a bus stop there for the buses that go on under the underpass.

Mr. BALL. Is there a bus stop for the buses that go south on Houston?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir; all the buses, we have to get in, this is a one-way street and you have to get over in this lane here.

Mr. BALL. By the lane you mean the extreme left lane?

Mr. McWATTERS. The extreme left lane to make----

Mr. BALL. To make the left turn south on Houston Street?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And your last bus stop, as you go west on Elm and before you turn is the northeast corner of Record and Elm?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. BALL. You went on over to Houston Viaduct into the Oak Cliff section, didn't you?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; to the Oak Cliff section.

Mr. BALL. And there was some conversation occurred on that bus that you told the FBI officers about?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Tell us what that was?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, there was a teenage boy, I would say 17 or 18 years of age, who was sitting to my right on the first cross seat and me and him had, we had conversationed a little while we was tied up in the traffic, you know, of the fact of we wondered where all, what all the excitement was due to the fact of the sirens and others, and after I turned on Houston Street I said to him and I made the remark, I wonder where the President was shot, and I believe he made the remark that it was probably in the head if he was in a convertible or something to that effect. I don't remember just exactly the way we worded it or what it was, but it was a conversation about the President, in other words, to where he was shot.

In other words, and he made the remark or something, he was probably shot in the head, if he was sitting in a convertible or to that effect. I really don't know just exactly at that time. Just like I say I never thought anything about it.

Mr. BALL. Didn't some lady say something?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, yes, sir.

Now, as we got on out on Marsalis, along about it was either Edgemont or Vermont, I believe it was Vermont Street, there was a lady who was fixing to cross the intersection and I stopped and asked her if she was going to catch the bus into town from the opposite direction, and she said that she was and I told her that we was off schedule, that the other bus had done went into town, and I asked her did she care to just ride on to the end of the line and come back and she wouldn't have to stand there and wait, and she was getting on, and I asked her had she heard the news of the President being shot, at the time that was all I knew about it, and she said, "No, what are you--you are just kidding me."

I said, "No, I really am not kidding you." I said, "It is the truth from all the reliable sources that we have come in contact with," and this teenage boy sitting on the side, I said "Well, now, if you think I am kidding you," I said, "Ask this gentleman sitting over here," and he kind of, I don't know whether it was a grinning or smile or whatever expression it was, and she said, "I know you are kidding now, because he laughed or grinned or made some remark to that effect."

And I just told her no it wasn't no kidding matter, but that was part of the conversation that was said at that time.

Mr. BALL. Was this teenage boy--do you know where this teenage boy got on the bus?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; he got on at between, he got on at the stop, in other words, I stopped in front of the Majestic theater which is a block before I get to St. Paul; in other words, it is a middle of the stop, block stop, in other words. We pull in and stop in the center of the block, and my next stop would be St. Paul; in other words, that is where the teenage boy got on.

Mr. BALL. He was on the bus when this man knocked on the door of your bus and got on?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; he was.

Mr. BALL. He was on the bus when the man asked for the transfer and got off?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. That is right.

Mr. BALL. Were you later called down to the--did the teenage boy ask for any transfer?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, you were called down to the Dallas police department later, weren't you?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What day was it?

Mr. McWATTERS. It was on the same day, the 22d.

Mr. BALL. 22d. Do you know how they happened to get in touch with you, did you notify them that you----

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir; I didn't know anything to that effect.

Mr. BALL. Did they come out and get you?

Mr. McWATTERS. They come out and----

Mr. BALL. What did they ask you?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, they stopped me; it was, I would say around 6:15 or somewhere around 6:15 or 6:20 that afternoon.

Mr. BALL. You were still on duty, were you?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Still on your bus?

Mr. McWATTERS. I was on duty but I was on a different line and a different bus.

Mr. BALL. What did they ask you when they came out?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, they stopped me right by the city hall there when I come by there and they wanted me to come in, they wanted to ask me some questions. And I don't know what it was about or anything until I got in there and they told me what happened.

Mr. BALL. What did they tell you?