Part 36

Mr. BALL. You mentioned it was woolen.

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Long sleeves?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Buttoned sleeves at the wrist, or do you remember?

Mr. FRAZIER. To be frank with you, I didn't notice that much about the jacket, but I had seen him wear that gray woolen jacket before.

Mr. BALL. You say it had a zipper on it?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now we have over here this exhibit for identification which is 364 which is a paper sack made out of tape, sort of a home made affair. Will you take a look at this. Does this appear to be anything like the color of the sack you saw on the back seat?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I would say it was, it was more a color like this.

Mr. BALL. It was more like this color, correct?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did it have tape on it or did you notice it?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, like I say, I didn't notice that much about it as I didn't see it very much.

Mr. BALL. Will you take a look at it as to the length. Does it appear to be about the same length?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. We will just use this. Was one end of the sack turned over, folded over? Do you remember that?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, you know, like I was saying, when I glanced at it, but I say from what I saw I didn't see very much of it, I say the bag wasn't open or anything like it where you can see the contents. If you was going to say putting--to more or less a person putting in carefully he would throw it in carefully, you put it more toward the back. If he had anything folded up in it I didn't see that.

Mr. BALL. When you saw him get out of the car, when you first saw him when he was out of the car before he started to walk, you noticed he had the package under the arm?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. One end of it was under the armpit and the other he had to hold it in his right hand. Did the package extend beyond the right hand?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. Like I say if you put it under your armpits and put it down normal to the side.

Mr. BALL. But the right hand on, was it on the end or the side of the package?

Mr. FRAZIER. No; he had it cupped in his hand.

Mr. BALL. Cupped in his hand?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Take a look at this paper bag which is Commission Exhibit 364 for identification, with reference to the width.

Was the bag about that width or a different width?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well. I would say it appears to me it would be pretty close but it might be just a little bit too wide. I think it is, because you know yourself you would have to have a big hand with that size but like I say he had this cupped in his hand because I remember glancing at him when he was a walking up ahead of me.

Mr. BALL. This is another bag here which has been marked Commission's Exhibit 142. But I don't see the stamp on it. This is FBI No. 10. This was shown to you before, wasn't it, in Dallas?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it was.

Mr. BALL. You were asked if you had seen this before, weren't you?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I was.

Mr. BALL. When you first saw it, you felt that the bag you saw was of a different color, didn't you?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right, and I say they told me this one had been treated in the lab.

Mr. BALL. If you will note there is a part of this bag which has not been treated.

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. So I will show you this part of this exhibit that hasn't been treated, and tell me whether or not the paper, the color of the paper that has not been treated, is or is not similar to the color of the paper on the bag you saw on the back seat of your car that morning.

(At this point, Senator Cooper entered the hearing room.)

Mr. FRAZIER. To be frank with you, more like I say the color, the color I saw would be more like it but I imagine if this hadn't been run through that process that this color here that you unwrapped would be more closer to this. This seems to have a little bit different color to me.

Mr. BALL. I didn't get the answer because of the--let's refer to this bag, that is the colored bag.

Mr. FRAZIER. Okay, sir.

Mr. BALL. And the bag that is not colored, and the other is just a bag.

Mr. FRAZIER. Okay, sir.

Mr. BALL. We are talking about the colored bag, the one that has changed its color. There is a part of the colored bag that hasn't changed color, isn't it?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. That is the part I want to call your attention to.

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. The color of this bag, the colored bag, has not been treated. Take a look at it. Is that similar to the color of the bag you saw in the back seat of your car that morning?

Mr. FRAZIER. It would be, surely it could have been, and it couldn't have been. Like I say, see, you know this color, either one of these colors, is very similar to the type of paper that you can get out of a store or anything like that, and so I say it could have been and then it couldn't have been.

Mr. BALL. Do you mean by that that it is similar to the color?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. And do you have a definite memory of the color of the bag you saw on the back seat of your car so that you can distinguish between one color and another?

Mr. FRAZIER. I believe it would be more on this basis here.

Mr. BALL. You say it would be more on the color of bag No. 364, is that right?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. You will notice that this bag which is the colored bag, FBI Exhibit No. 10, is folded over. Was it folded over when you saw it the first time, folded over to the end?

Mr. FRAZIER. I will say I am not sure about that, whether it was folded over or not, because, like I say, I didn't pay that much attention to it.

Mr. BALL. This is Commission Exhibit No. 142.

The CHAIRMAN. That is the dark bag?

Mr. BALL. The dark bag is Commission Exhibit No. 142.

When you were shown this bag, do you recall whether or not you told the officers who showed you the bag--did you tell them whether you thought it was or was not about the same length as the bag you saw on the back seat?

Mr. FRAZIER. I told them that as far as the length there, I told them that was entirely too long.

Mr. BALL. What about the width?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I say, like I say now, now I couldn't see much of the bag from him walking in front of me. Now he could have had some of it sticking out in front of his hands because I didn't see it from the front. The only time I did see it was from the back, just a little strip running down from your arm and so therefore, like that, I say, I know that the bag wouldn't be that long.

So far as being that wide like I say I couldn't be sure.

Mr. BALL. It could have been that wide?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Now, you said that some of the bag might have been beyond his hands, did you say?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I said it could have, now I am not saying it was.

Mr. BALL. In other words, it could have been longer than his hands?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. It has been suggested that you take this bag, which is the colored bag, Commission Exhibit No. 142, and put it under your arm just as a sample, or just to show about how he carried the bag.

Mr. FRAZIER. Okay.

Mr. BALL. Put it under your armpit.

Mr. FRAZIER. Like that, normally your hand would come down like that and you would say, you would have an item, like you have seen people carry items like they would be walking along and your arm would come down like that, just like----

Mr. BALL. But are you sure that his hand was at the end of the package or at the side of the package?

Mr. FRAZIER. Like I said, I remember I didn't look at the package very much, paying much attention, but when I did look at it he did have his hands on the package like that.

Mr. BALL. But you said a moment ago you weren't sure whether the package was longer or shorter.

Mr. FRAZIER. And his hands because I couldn't see that about the package.

Mr. BALL. By that, do you mean that you don't know whether the package extended beyond his hands?

Mr. FRAZIER. This way?

Mr. BALL. No; lengthwise, toward his feet.

Mr. FRAZIER. No; now I don't mean that.

Mr. BALL. What do you mean?

Mr. FRAZIER. What I was talking about, I said I didn't know where it extended. It could have or couldn't have, out this way, widthwise not lengthwise.

Mr. BALL. In other words, you say it could have been wider than your original estimate?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. But you don't think it was longer than his hands?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. How tall are you?

Mr. FRAZIER. I am 6-foot, a little bit over 6-foot.

Mr. BALL. Do you know what your arm length is?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. BALL. We can probably measure it before you leave.

Did you ever see Lee taking home anything with him from the Texas Book Depository Building?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; never did.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him taking a package home with him?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. When was the last time you can remember you saw Lee?

Mr. FRAZIER. You mean on the 22d?

Mr. BALL. On the 22d, that day.

Mr. FRAZIER. Somewhere between it was after 10 and somewhere before noon, because I remember I was walking down to the first floor that day, that was the only time I went up on the elevator was, like I say, for a few minutes and, I put that box of books up and put it down, and I was on the first floor putting up books all day and I seen him back and forth and he would be walking and getting books and put on the order.

Mr. BALL. That was the last time you saw him all day?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. You didn't talk to him again?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. Did you wear a coat or jacket to work that morning?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. BALL. It was chilly, was it?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it was.

Mr. BALL. When you stood out on the front looking at the parade, where was Shelley standing and where was Lovelady standing with reference to you?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, see, I was standing, like I say, one step down from the top, and Mr. Shelley was standing, you know, back from the top step and over toward the side of the wall there. See, he was standing right over there, and then Billy was a couple of steps down from me over toward more the wall also.

Mr. BALL. Usually when Lee walked in the Building in the morning, when you came to work with him where did he go, do you know?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. He just walked in, say, like inside the Building, and like I say I always went and put my lunch up and hang my jacket or coat up, whichever I wore, and he was usually around there on the first floor there after some of them put their lunch in the refrigerator, so far as that I never paid too much attention to what he usually did.

Mr. BALL. You usually walked in together?

Mr. FRAZIER. That is right, sir.

Mr. BALL. And you separated after you got in there?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; after we got into the interior I just went and put my lunch up.

Mr. BALL. Did you notice where Lee kept his lunch?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him come into the Building on other days than the days that he rode with you?

Mr. FRAZIER. You mean did I ever see him come in the Building when he rode with me?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; because when he rode with me we always walked together.

Mr. BALL. No; other than when he rode with you.

Mr. FRAZIER. Oh, other than when he rode with me. No, sir; I didn't.

The CHAIRMAN. Did he have any particular associates around there that you knew of?

Mr. FRAZIER. Not that I knew of. I say he didn't mingle with other guys like the rest of us. The rest of us usually joked back and forth with practically everybody who worked around there. But he usually kept to himself, that was the only time he talked to anybody was when he wanted to know something about a book or something like that.

Mr. BALL. We have got a picture taken the day of the parade and it shows the President's car going by.

Now, take a look at that picture. Can you see your picture any place there?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't, because I was back up in this more or less black area here.

Mr. BALL. I see.

Mr. FRAZIER. Because Billy, like I say, is two or three steps down in front of me.

Mr. BALL. Do you recognize this fellow?

Mr. FRAZIER. That is Billy, that is Billy Lovelady.

Mr. BALL. Billy?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Let's take a marker and make an arrow down that way. That mark is Billy Lovelady?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. That is where you told us you were standing a moment ago.

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. In front of you to the right over to the wall?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Is this a Commission exhibit?

We will make this a Commission Exhibit No. 369.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 369 for identification.)

Mr. BALL. That is written in. The arrow marks Billy Lovelady on Commission's Exhibit No. 369.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you have any lockers there in which you put your clothes, and so forth?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; we don't.

(At this point, Representative Ford withdrew from the hearing room.)

Mr. FRAZIER. Some boys hang their jackets up in there in that little domino room where they were going to play dominoes. But here lately, I have been wondering, you know, most of us wear our jackets, what we have on, because if you are going out there on a dock in the cold air we usually keep them on.

The CHAIRMAN. I see.

Mr. BALL. On Thursday afternoon when you went home, drove on home, did he carry any package with him?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he didn't.

Mr. BALL. Did he have a jacket or coat on him?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What kind of a jacket or coat did he have?

Mr. FRAZIER. That, you know, like I say gray jacket.

Mr. BALL. That same gray jacket?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. Now, I can be frank with you, I had seen him wear that jacket several times, because it is cool type like when you keep a jacket on all day, if you are working on outside or something like that, you wouldn't go outside with just a plain shirt on.

Mr. BALL. I have no further questions.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator, have you any questions you would like to ask?

I think that is all.

Does anybody else have any questions to ask? Do you have any questions?

Mr. BALL. Mr. Frazier, we have here this Exhibit No. 364 which is a sack and in that we have put a dismantled gun. Don't pay any attention to that. Will you stand up here and put this under your arm and then take hold of it at the side?

Now, is that anywhere near similar to the way that Oswald carried the package?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, you know, like I said now, I said I didn't pay much attention----

Mr. BALL. Turn around.

Mr. FRAZIER. I didn't pay much attention, but when I did, I say, he had this part down here, like the bottom would be short he had cupped in his hand like that and, say, like walking from the back if you had a big arm jacket there you wouldn't tell much from a package back there, the physical features. If you could see it from the front like when you walk and meet somebody you could tell about the package, but walking from behind you couldn't tell much about the package whatsoever about the width. But he didn't carry it from the back. If this package were shorter he would have it cupped in his hands.

The CHAIRMAN. Could he have had the top of it behind his shoulder, or are you sure it was cupped under his shoulder there?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; because the way it looked, you know, like I say, he had it cupped in his hand.

The CHAIRMAN. I beg your pardon?

Mr. FRAZIER. I said from where I noticed he had it cupped in his hands. And I don't see how you could have it anywhere other than under your armpit because if you had it cupped in your hand it would stick over it.

Mr. BALL. Could he have carried it this way?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. Never in front here. Like that. Now, that is what I was talking to you about. No, I say he couldn't because if he had you would have seen the package sticking up like that.

From what I seen walking behind he had it under his arm and you couldn't tell that he had a package from the back.

Mr. BALL. When you cupped the bottom of your package in the hands, will you stand up, again, please, and the upper part of the package is not under the armpit, the top of the package extends almost up to the level of your ear.

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Or your eye level, and when you put the package under your armpit, the upper part of the package, and take a hold of the side of it with your right hand, it extends on approximately about 8 inches, about the span of my hand, more than 8 inches, 8, 10 inches.

Mr. FRAZIER. If you were using a yardstick or one of these little----

Mr. BALL. I was using my hand.

Mr. FRAZIER. I know you were, but there are some different means to measure it. I will say it varies, if you use a yardstick. You can go and measure something with a tape measure, with a yardstick and come up with a different measurement altogether, maybe a quarter of an inch shorter or longer.

Mr. BALL. I was asked, there was some uncertainty in your testimony as to the direction from which you heard the shots fired. Let's see if we can illustrate it.

You heard the shots fired and you expressed an opinion that it came from a certain direction. I would like to clear that up, if I could, on this map.

Here is the Texas School Book Depository Building, and you were standing right here, you said, weren't you? Can you tell me?

Mr. FRAZIER. You know the entrance there is not quite at that corner.

Mr. BALL. That close.

Now, you say you heard these three sounds which you later thought were probably shots, you thought it came from a certain direction.

Can you tell us from what direction as illustrated on the map?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right. Now I say, you know where it is the straight curve that goes under the underpass.

Mr. BALL. That is the parkway?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right. I say it runs over this parkway, you don't have it on here--anyway, I say these railroad tracks there is a series of them that come up over this, up over this overpass there, and from where I was standing, I say, it is my true opinion, that is what I thought, it sounded like it came from over there, in the railroad tracks.

Mr. BALL. That would be east and south?

Mr. FRAZIER. No; that would be west and south.

Mr. BALL. West and south?

Mr. FRAZIER. No; it would be north.

Mr. BALL. No; it wouldn't be north.

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; it wouldn't be south because that is in that direction.

Mr. BALL. This is north, and you say it, I believe, it came from north?

Mr. FRAZIER. It would be more or less west and north were these tracks from this overpass.

Mr. BALL. Your direction was west and north as the source of the sound.

Well, take a look at the map that does show the overpass and you will put a mark on that.

Did any other people who were standing there with you express any opinion as to where they thought the sounds came from?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I say, after we found out it was shots I see some of the other people around there said when they were staying there, said that is what it was, downward right back from us, like where we were standing. If we had been standing somewhere else you might have gotten a different opinion, but from where we were standing on the steps there it sounded like back down to the right.

Mr. BALL. Here is a Commission Exhibit, No. 347. It is an aerial photograph, and it shows the Texas School Book Depository Building.

Mr. FRAZIER. Here is the Depository Building here.

Mr. BALL. That is right, sir. Here is the parkway.

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Here are the overpasses here.

Can you show us on that map where you think--will that map--can you on that map indicate the general direction from which you thought the sounds came from?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; because we were standing right here.

Mr. BALL. Don't mark it up right now.

Mr. FRAZIER. Right. But what I am trying to say is we were standing down there, and back over here, this over here is more or less a knoll, and you can look over there and see this. You see this furthest left line that curved around here is the ones we take to come out on Stemmons Expressway, and this is a high knoll up here which runs where the tracks are, from standing there it sounded like it came from this general area over here.

Mr. BALL. Just mark on that if you can, if you can mark a source.

Mr. FRAZIER. This is where it is.

Mr. BALL. Mark a circle.

Mr. FRAZIER. I would say just like over in here.

Mr. BALL. Let's make it a little heavier. In that general direction?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. That was just part of the knoll.

Mr. BALL. The circle marked on No. 347, we will identify it with an "F," the circle marked "F" represents the direction, general direction, of a source of sound as you--as occurred to you as you stood on the front steps of the Texas Book Depository Building, is that right?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. I have no further questions.

The CHAIRMAN. Anything from you, Senator?

Well, that will be all. Thank you very much for coming and testifying before the Commission.

Mr. FRAZIER. Thank you, Mr. Warren.

The CHAIRMAN. All right, bring in the next witness.

The Commission will be in order.

Mrs. Randle, I will just read you a brief statement of the purpose of our meeting today.

The purpose of today's hearing is to hear the testimony of Buell Wesley Frazier and Linnie Mae Randle. The Commission has been advised that these two witnesses have stated that they saw Lee Harvey Oswald on the morning of November 22, 1963. The Commission proposes to ask these witnesses questions concerning their knowledge of the assassination of President Kennedy.

You have a copy of that, do you not?

Very well, Mr. Ball will conduct the examination.

Will you rise and be sworn, please?

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Please be seated.

Mr. Ball?

TESTIMONY OF LINNIE MAE RANDLE

Mr. BALL. Mrs. Randle, where do you live?

Mrs. RANDLE. 2438 Westfield, Irving, Tex.

Mr. BALL. And you live there with your husband and three daughters, do you?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And your brother?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Wesley?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How long has Wesley been living there?

Mrs. RANDLE. Since September, somewhere around the first, I am not sure just the date.

Mr. BALL. Do you know Mrs. Ruth Paine?

Mrs. RANDLE. She is a neighbor that lives up the street from me.

Mr. BALL. When did you first meet Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. RANDLE. Well, for a period, I am not sure of this, it is quite 2 years, I lived across the street from her. I didn't visit with her, but I visited with her neighbor who lives next door.

Mr. BALL. What is her name?

Mrs. RANDLE. Mrs. Dorothy Roberts.

Mr. BALL. That is on Fifth Street in Irving, Tex.?

Mrs. RANDLE. That is right; yes.

Mr. BALL. That was before you moved down the street to the corner of Westfield and Fifth Street?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You had never visited in Mrs. Paine's home?

Mrs. RANDLE. I was in her home on one occasion that I remember at a birthday party for one of her children and she invited mine.

Mr. BALL. How long ago?

Mrs. RANDLE. It has been about a year ago.

Mr. BALL. That is the only time you have visited Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever meet Marina Oswald?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. BALL. When did you meet her?

Mrs. RANDLE. The first time I met her was over at this Mrs. Roberts. I had gone up there to see Mrs. Roberts and her, Mrs. Oswald and Mrs. Paine was over there drinking coffee, that was the first time I met her.

Mr. BALL. When was that?

Mrs. RANDLE. Well, I believe it was the first week in October.

Mr. BALL. That is the first time you had ever met Mrs. Oswald?