Part 35

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I saw him back and forth, you know, that morning walking around, filling books and so forth, filling orders, had invoices filling orders.

Mr. BALL. When you came in that morning to go to work where did you go first?

Mr. FRAZIER. I went like I did every morning, I went down in the basement there and hung up my coat and put up my lunch.

Mr. BALL. Did you see Oswald down there?

Mr. FRAZIER. No; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. Then you went to work?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. How did you get to the basement?

Mr. FRAZIER. Went down through the, now over there where they have--are you familiar with the Depository Building?

Mr. BALL. Only through the map.

Mr. FRAZIER. We have the----

Mr. BALL. There is the map of the first floor. Does it show the steps leading down to the basement?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. You see the one there where you have the arrow that is one entrance to the basement and that is the entrance I used the biggest part of the time, that is the one I go down.

Mr. BALL. Did you see Oswald there?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. During the morning you say you saw Oswald around filling orders?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. BALL. Were you on the sixth floor any that morning?

Mr. FRAZIER. One time just a few seconds. I said to Mr. Shelley we had some book returns. They had sent back and he told me to count the books and make sure they were all there and put them in the space and so I took the elevator and loaded them on with a two-wheeler and so I know where they went, and I went to the shelf off the elevator and put them on the shelf and turned around and went right on down.

Mr. BALL. Were they doing some work there that day?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; they were.

Representative FORD. What time was that?

Mr. FRAZIER. When I went to put up the stock?

Representative FORD. Yes. On the sixth floor.

Mr. FRAZIER. That was sometime between 8 and 10 o'clock. I say it was the early part of the morning.

Mr. BALL. What kind of work did you notice they were doing up there?

Mr. FRAZIER. As well as I remember they were moving stock, I believe putting up some stock, straightening up the stock.

Mr. BALL. Any work done on the floor?

Mr. FRAZIER. I don't remember if they were working on the floor or not. They may have because upon the fifth floor I know we have done the fifth floor.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember the names of any workmen you saw on the sixth floor that morning you were there?

Mr. FRAZIER. I believe Billy was up there, Billy Lovelady, but so far as I can say I went and put books on the shelf and turned around and walked back and glanced up when I was coming back, I didn't stay any length of time because when we are pretty busy, some fill out orders and some doing something else and if you have a lot of orders to fill you haven't got a lot of time to sit around and be talking.

Mr. BALL. Did you see Oswald on the sixth floor any time that morning?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. I didn't because like I say that was the only time I went up there at all that day and I was just up there for a few seconds.

Mr. BALL. Did you talk to him any that morning?

Mr. FRAZIER. I don't believe I did much unless he asked me something about a book like I told you, and I was always willing to help anybody I can.

Mr. BALL. Now, you knew that the President was going to pass that building sometime that morning, didn't you?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I heard he would.

Mr. BALL. Did you talk to some of the men around there about it?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever talk to Oswald about that?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. What time did you knock off for lunch?

Mr. FRAZIER. 12.

Mr. BALL. Did you eat your lunch?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; not right then I didn't. I say, you know, he was supposed to come by during our lunch hour so you don't get very many chances to see the President of the United States and being an old Texas boy, and [he] never having been down to Texas very much I went out there to see him and just like everybody else was, I was standing on the steps there and watched for the parade to come by and so I did and I stood there until he come by.

Mr. BALL. You went out there after you quit work?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right, for lunch.

Mr. BALL. About 12 o'clock?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. And you hadn't eaten your lunch up to that time?

Mr. FRAZIER. No.

Mr. BALL. Did you go out there with somebody?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. BALL. Who did you go out there with?

Mr. FRAZIER. I stayed around there pretty close to Mr. Shelley and this boy Billy Lovelady and just standing there, people talking and just talking about how pretty a day it turned out to be, because I told you earlier it was an old cloudy and misty day and then it didn't look like it was going to be a pretty day at all.

Mr. BALL. And it turned out to be a good day?

Mr. FRAZIER. Pretty sunshiny day.

Mr. BALL. Warm?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it was pretty warm.

Mr. BALL. Then let's see, there was Billy Lovelady and you were there.

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Anybody else you can remember?

Mr. FRAZIER. There was a lady there, a heavy-set lady who worked upstairs there whose name is Sarah something, I don't know her last name.

Mr. BALL. Were you near the steps?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I was, I was standing about, I believe, one step down from the top there.

Mr. BALL. One step down from the top of the steps?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; standing there by the rail.

Mr. BALL. By steps we are talking about the steps of the entrance to the Building?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Shown in this picture?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Which is Commission's Exhibit No. 362. Can you come over here and show us about where you were standing?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. Like I told you this was an entrance right here.

Mr. BALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. FRAZIER. We have a bar rail running about half way up here. This was the first step and I was standing right around there.

Mr. BALL. Put a mark there. Your name is Frazier, put an "F" there for Frazier.

Mr. FRAZIER. O.K.

Mr. BALL. In the picture that would show you about there, would it?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; you can see, just see, the top, about the top rail there, I was standing right in there.

Mr. BALL. Right in there?

Mr. FRAZIER. To be frank with you, I say, shadow from the roof there knocked the sun from out our eyes, you wouldn't have any glare in the eyes standing there.

Mr. BALL. There was a roof over your head, was there?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Did you stand there for 30 minutes or--tell us how long you stayed there?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I stood there until the parade come by.

Mr. BALL. Did you see the President go by?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear anything?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I say, just right after he went by he hadn't hardly got by, I heard a sound and if you have ever been around motorcycles you know how they backfire, and so I thought one of them motorcycles backfired because right before his car came down, now there were several of these motorcycle policemen, and they took off down toward the underpass down there, and so I thought, you know, that one of them motorcycles backfired, but it wasn't just a few seconds that, you know, I heard two more of the same type of, you know, sounds, and by that time people was running everywhere, and falling down and screaming, and naturally then I knew something was wrong, and so I come to the conclusion somebody else, somebody was shooting at somebody and I figured it was him.

Mr. BALL. You figured it was who?

Mr. FRAZIER. I figured it was somebody shooting at President Kennedy because people were running and hollering so I just stood still. I have always been taught when something like that happened or anywhere as far as that it is always best to stand still because if you run that makes you look guilty sure enough.

Mr. BALL. Now, then, did you have any impression at that time as to the direction from which the sound came?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, to be frank with you I thought it come from down there, you know, where that underpass is. There is a series, quite a few number, of them railroad tracks running together and from where I was standing it sounded like it was coming from down the railroad tracks there.

Mr. BALL. Were you able to see the President, could you still see the President's car when you heard the first sound?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I couldn't. From there, you know, people were standing out there on the curb, you see, and you know it drops, you know the ground drops, off there as you go down toward that underpass and I couldn't see any of it because people were standing up there in my way, but however, when he did turn that corner there, there wasn't anybody standing there in the street and you could see good there, but after you got on past down there you couldn't see anything.

Mr. BALL. You didn't see the President's car at the time you heard the sound?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. But you stood right there, did you?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right. Stood right where I was.

Mr. BALL. And Mr. Shelley was still standing there?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. And also Billy Lovelady?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. The three of you didn't go any place?

Mr. FRAZIER. I believe Billy and them walked down toward that direction but I didn't. I just stood where I was. I hadn't moved at all.

Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody after that come into the Building while you were there?

Mr. FRAZIER. You mean somebody other that didn't work there?

Mr. BALL. A police officer.

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I stood there a few minutes, you know, and some people who worked there; you know normally started to go back into the Building because a lot of us didn't eat our lunch, and so we started back into the Building and it wasn't but just a few minutes that there were a lot of police officers and so forth all over the Building there.

Mr. BALL. Then you went back into the Building, did you?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. And before you went back into the Building no police officer came up the steps and into the building?

Mr. FRAZIER. Not that I know. They could walk by the way and I was standing there talking to somebody else and didn't see it.

Mr. BALL. Did anybody say anything about what had happened, did you hear anybody say anything about the President had been shot?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; right before I went back, some girl who had walked down a little bit further where I was standing on the steps, and somebody come back and said somebody had shot President Kennedy.

Mr. BALL. Do you know who it was who told you that?

Mr. FRAZIER. Sir?

Mr. BALL. Do you know who the girl was who told you that?

Mr. FRAZIER. She didn't tell me right directly but she just came back and more or less in a low kind of hollering she just told several people.

Mr. BALL. Then you went back into the Building, did you?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. And police officers came in there?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I would say by the time, you know some of us went back in, and it wasn't just a few minutes, I say there were several.

Mr. BALL. Did you stay on the first floor?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, stayed on the first floor there for a few minutes and I hadn't eaten my lunch so I had my lunch down there in the basement and I went down there to get my lunch and eat it and I walked back up on the first floor there.

Mr. BALL. When you came back into the Building, you came in the front door, didn't you?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Did you go down to the basement immediately or did you stand around on the first floor?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I stood around for several minutes there, you know, and then, you know, eventually the ones who hadn't eaten their lunch, some of them had taken their lunch outside.

Mr. BALL. Did other people go downstairs with you?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; they didn't.

Mr. BALL. You went down alone, did you?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you go at any time in the back end of the Building back near the door to the loading dock?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I never did.

Mr. BALL. Perhaps I had better ask you to point out on the map here where you were. Come over here, please.

Mr. FRAZIER. O.K.

Mr. BALL. You came in back into the Building?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Tell us where you went and what you did?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, you know like I said I come back through here [indicating on Commission Exhibit No. 362, diagram of first floor].

Mr. BALL. By "coming back through here," you mean you came down the hallway and into the entrance into the first floor warehouse?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right, and you come by Mr. Shelley's office, that is his counter right here, after you get in, you get off here, that is his office, anyway, right out, I come out around here, you know where several of the people walked around here.

Mr. BALL. That is in the bin area?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; the bins don't start automatically right up in here. I say, there is a little bit more or less, like more or less a hall through here, but anyway, you know, I say, you have two or three bins.

Mr. BALL. Through here you mean there is sort of a hall after you enter into the warehouse?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Right.

Mr. FRAZIER. From it, after you come past this counter you have several rows of bins coming this way, but, I say, right after you get past, say, this last bin right here running that way, right out this general area right here you have a telephone and everything out in here.

Mr. BALL. Well, you indicated that everything that would be beyond this line, the bin lines, would be clear on the first floor.

Mr. FRAZIER. Right, beyond here.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever go into that area where it was clear before you went downstairs?

From the time you came back into the room, did you go down into this area which was clear before you went downstairs?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't go in here. I was right over right close to Mr. Shelley's office right around here and sit around and talked with some guys around there.

Mr. BALL. You are indicating around Mr. Shelley's office?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; pretty close right there, like I say more or less right out over in here we have a----

Mr. BALL. Put a mark there.

Mr. FRAZIER. Let's see----

Mr. BALL. Put a circle to show the general area where you and the rest of them stood around and talked.

Mr. FRAZIER. Right in there is right around near the telephone and we were just right around in there.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go?

Mr. FRAZIER. We left, you know, after we stood and talked with some guys there, some of them had eaten and some of them didn't, some of them had sandwiches in their hands, so naturally I felt like eating and I walked around the bin and walked down the steps there.

Mr. BALL. Got your lunch?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Come back up?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't come back up. I was sitting eating my lunch. I looked at my watch and didn't have but 10 minutes, so I naturally ate faster than normal, so I was eating a couple of sandwiches, and eat an apple or something and come right back up and the guys, the people who worked there, standing around on the first floor, some of them eating their lunches and others merely talking.

Mr. BALL. You never went back to work?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; we didn't. I didn't work any more that day.

Mr. BALL. You stayed there on the job until you were told to go home?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What time did they tell you to go home?

Mr. FRAZIER. It was between 1 and 2 there sometime, roughly, I don't know what time it was.

Mr. BALL. Had the police officers come in there and talked to you?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; they come in and talked to all of us. They asked us to show our proper identification, and then they had us to write our name down and who to get in touch with if they wanted to see us.

Mr. BALL. Did they ask you where you had been at the time the President passed?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; they had. I told them I was out on the steps there.

Mr. BALL. Asked you who you were with?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I told them and naturally Mr. Shelley and Billy vouched for me and so they didn't think anything about it.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear anybody around there asking for Lee Oswald?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. At any time before you went home, did you hear anybody ask for Lee?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't believe they did, because they, you know, like one man showed us, we had to give proper identification and after we passed him he told us to walk on then to the next man, and we, you know, put down proper information where he could be found if they wanted to see you and talk to you any more, and then we went on up to a little bit more to the front entrance more toward Mr. Shelley's office there with another man and stood there for a little while and told us all that was there could go ahead and go home.

Mr. BALL. Then you went on home?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Representative FORD. Did all this occur after you had finished your lunch?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it did.

Representative FORD. Did it ever occur to you at any time following the shooting there was something connecting the shooting with Lee Oswald and the package?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I say not particularly not at that time, I didn't think anything about it because, to be frank with you, some were over here, one or two would be over here talking and just strung out here, on the first floor and I didn't think anything about it. I see some of the guys, they go out for lunch and they come back 12:45 so I didn't know whether he had went out to lunch or not. Some of them do every week.

Representative FORD. Did any of the policemen interfere with your efforts to go into the Building and eventually down into the basement where you had your lunch?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; they didn't.

Mr. BALL. Before you left, did you look for Oswald to see about taking him home?

Mr. FRAZIER. No; I didn't, sir.

Mr. BALL. Was there some reason why you didn't?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I did. Because like I told you, he was going home to get the curtain rods and I asked him at the time, the same time, it would be about that, would he be going home with me Friday afternoon like he had been doing, he said no. So naturally when they let us go I took on off because I thought maybe they had already dismissed him and he went on home.

Mr. BALL. When you talked to him on Thursday and he told you he wouldn't be going home on Friday, did he tell you what he was going to do, why he wasn't going to go home?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he didn't.

Mr. BALL. Did you talk to him again on Friday morning as to whether or not he had changed his mind? Did you ask him whether or not you could pick him up at the end of the day?

Mr. FRAZIER. To be frank with you, Mr. Ball, I am not sure.

Mr. BALL. Whether you did or not.

Did anybody tell you that Lee Oswald was missing before you went home?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; they didn't.

Representative FORD. Could you describe for the Commission where you went on the sixth floor that morning in relationship to the overall picture of the sixth floor?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I could.

Representative FORD. Would you do so, please?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Do you have a piece of paper I can draw? [Witness draws diagram on piece of paper.]

Let's see, right here is your two elevator shafts we have. That morning I used this one over here.

Representative FORD. Would you mark Houston, Elm and the other streets?

Mr. FRAZIER. This is Houston, this is Elm right out here. Anyway, like I said, I won't draw these buildings. I have these two elevator shafts here. Quickly you come off these elevator shafts right here, we have skids with books on them, and you see right on those skids you would have some shelves right about like this and so I merely walked over to the elevator with the two-wheeler we use on the dock and walked somewhere say maybe halfway, not quite halfway, there and put up some books, put them down on the floor there, on the floor level and so I just turned around and come back to the elevator and come on down, and went about my business. He had me putting up some books there on the shelves.

Representative FORD. From this point here could you see the windows or the area at the corner of Houston and Elm in the Building?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; you could. I say you could look down and see this area back over here.

Representative FORD. Did you look over there?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't.

Right on down there, I knew where the books went so normally I didn't have to look around. I say, I was going to get through, if you are not familiar with the books and so forth it would take you a little longer to find and put them up. But if you know where they go you can put them up very quickly.

So I knew this book went in the shelf because this book we don't handle very many of them and that is where I put books you don't handle very many, put them in the shelf.

So I put the books in the shelf and turned around and put them in the elevator and come on down.

Mr. BALL. Can I have this marked as Commission Exhibit 368, the diagram just drawn by the witness to illustrate his work on the sixth floor?

The CHAIRMAN. It may be marked.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 368, for identification.)

Mr. BALL. I have here Commission's 163, a gray blue jacket. Do you recognize this jacket?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see Lee Oswald wear this jacket?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't believe I have.

Mr. BALL. Commission Exhibit No. 162, which can be described for the record as a gray jacket with zipper, have you seen Lee Oswald wear this jacket?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I haven't.

Mr. BALL. I have here Commission 150, which is described as sort of a rust brown shirt. Have you ever seen Lee Oswald wear this shirt? It has a hole in the sleeve near the elbow.

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't believe I have because most time I noticed when Lee had it, I say he put off his shirt and just wear a T-shirt the biggest part of the time so really what shirt he wore that day I really didn't see it or didn't pay enough attention to it whether he did have a shirt on.

Mr. BALL. On that day you did notice one article of clothing, that is, he had a jacket?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What color was the jacket?

Mr. FRAZIER. It was a gray, more or less flannel, wool-looking type of jacket that I had seen him wear and that is the type of jacket he had on that morning.

Mr. BALL. Did it have a zipper on it?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it was one of the zipper types.

Mr. BALL. It isn't one of these two zipper jackets we have shown?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Do you know what kind of trousers he had on, what color?

Mr. FRAZIER. Not that day, I don't remember.

Mr. BALL. You wouldn't remember that day?

Mr. FRAZIER. I had seen him wear some gray ones before.

Mr. BALL. Here is Commission's Exhibit No. 157 which are gray trousers. Had you ever seen him wear these?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; to be frank with you, I had seen something more or less of that order, that type of material, but so far as that, being sure that, was his pants or some of his clothes, I couldn't be sure.

Mr. BALL. Here is Commission No. 156 which is a pair of gray trousers. Did you ever see him wear trousers of that type?

Mr. FRAZIER. Not that I know of.

Mr. BALL. You are not able to tell us then anything or are you able to tell us, describe any of the clothing he had on that day, except this gray jacket?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. That is the only thing you can remember?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. I have here a paper sack which is Commission's Exhibit 364.

That gray jacket you mentioned, did it have any design in it?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Was it light or dark gray?

Mr. FRAZIER. It was light gray.