Part 34

Mr. BALL. The next morning you had breakfast about what time?

Mr. FRAZIER. Between 7 and 7:15, that is the time I usually, I usually come to the breakfast table about 7.

Mr. BALL. Breakfast table in the kitchen?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it is in the den.

Mr. BALL. And the kitchen windows look out on what street, Westbrook or Fifth?

Mr. FRAZIER. Westbrook.

Mr. BALL. They look onto Westbrook?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. There is a back door, is there, to the kitchen?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; there is. I say when we come in there we have a double carport more or less type of garage.

Mr. BALL. Is that on Westbrook?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; the entrance to the garage there, more or less carport; yes, the entrance is from Westbrook.

Mr. BALL. As you were having breakfast did your mother say anything to you about----

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I say----

Mr. BALL. Oswald?

Mr. FRAZIER. I was sitting there eating my breakfast there, so sitting there, I usually talk to my little nieces, you know, they have them cartoons on for a while and we usually talk a little bit back and forth while eating breakfast and I was just finishing my coffee there and my sister, you know, was working over there around, you know the sink there, and she was fixing my lunch so she was somewhere around there over on the cabinets fixing the cabinets and mother just happened to glance up and saw this man, you know, who was Lee looking in the window for me and she said, "Who is that?"

And I said, "That is Lee," and naturally he just walked around and so I thought he just walked around there on the carport right there close to the door and so I told her I had to go, so I went in there and brushed my teeth right quick and come through there and I usually have my coat laying somewhere on the chair and picked it up and put it on and by that time my sister had my lunch, you know, in a sack and sitting over there on the washer where I picked it up right there by the door and I just walked on out and we got in the car.

Mr. BALL. Now, did your sister say anything as you were having breakfast?

Mr. FRAZIER. No; she didn't say anything to me at all.

Mr. BALL. She didn't say anything to you either about Oswald or did she?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; say, she didn't say, you know, when I looked up and saw him I knew who it was.

Mr. BALL. You saw him?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. What was he doing?

Mr. FRAZIER. He just looked through the kitchen window. To see from there on the ground outside there. I say you don't have to be any height at all, you don't have to be too tall to be able to look in the kitchen window there.

I say, if you have the window open you can see in, if you have light on in there.

Mr. BALL. When your mother mentioned, "Who is that," you looked up and saw Lee Oswald in the kitchen window?

Mr. FRAZIER. I just saw him for a split second and when he saw I saw him, I guess he heard me say, "Well, it is time to go," and he walked down by the back door there.

Representative FORD. When he would go with you on Monday, on any Monday, was this the same procedure for getting to, getting in contact with you?

Mr. FRAZIER. You mean coming in there and looking through the window?

Representative FORD. Yes.

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; it wasn't. I say, that is the first time he had ever done that. I say, most times I would usually call him, you know, I was already out in the car fixing to go out the driveway there, and, you know, around to pick him up if he hadn't come down but most times, once in a while I picked him up at the house and another time he was already coming down the sidewalk to the house when I was fixing to pick him up and I usually picked him up around the corner there.

Representative FORD. Did this different method of him meeting you raise any questions in your mind?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; it didn't. I just thought maybe, you know, he just left a little bit earlier but when I looked up and saw that the clock was, I knew I was the one who was running a little bit late because, as I say, I was talking, sitting there eating breakfast and talking to the little nieces, it was later than I thought it was.

Mr. BALL. When you went out the back door where was Oswald?

Mr. FRAZIER. He was standing just a few feet there outside the back door there.

Mr. BALL. He wasn't in the car?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he wasn't.

Mr. BALL. Was he near the car?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he wasn't.

You see, always I keep my car parked outside the carport there, on the other side.

Mr. BALL. He was just a few feet outside your back door when you came out?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Did you walk together to the car?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; we did.

Mr. BALL. And you got in one side and he got in the other?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes. Right in front there.

Mr. BALL. Did you say usually you had to go by and pick him up?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I said I had a couple of times. Most of the time, you know, he was usually walking down the sidewalk as I was driving out of the driveway so, therefore, I didn't have to go up to the house there to pick him up. I just usually picked him up around the corner because he was usually on the sidewalk and I just stopped and picked him up.

Mr. BALL. Were you later than usual that morning?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't believe we were, because we got to work on time. I say, when I looked at the clock, after I glanced he was there a split second and I just turned around and looked at the clock to see what time it was and it was right around 7:21 then and I went in and brushed my teeth real quick and running through the house put my coat on and we left.

Mr. BALL. You both got in the car about the same time?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. All right.

When you got in the car did you say anything to him or did he say anything to you?

Mr. FRAZIER. Let's see, when I got in the car I have a kind of habit of glancing over my shoulder and so at that time I noticed there was a package laying on the back seat, I didn't pay too much attention and I said, "What's the package, Lee?"

And he said, "Curtain rods," and I said, "Oh, yes, you told me you was going to bring some today."

That is the reason, the main reason he was going over there that Thursday afternoon when he was to bring back some curtain rods, so I didn't think any more about it when he told me that.

Mr. BALL. What did the package look like?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I will be frank with you, I would just, it is right as you get out of the grocery store, just more or less out of a package, you have seen some of these brown paper sacks you can obtain from any, most of the stores, some varieties, but it was a package just roughly about two feet long.

Mr. BALL. It was, what part of the back seat was it in?

Mr. FRAZIER. It was in his side over on his side in the far back.

Mr. BALL. How much of that back seat, how much space did it take up?

Mr. FRAZIER. I would say roughly around 2 feet of the seat.

Mr. BALL. From the side of the seat over to the center, is that the way you would measure it?

Mr. FRAZIER. If, if you were going to measure it that way from the end of the seat over toward the center, right. But I say like I said I just roughly estimate and that would be around two feet, give and take a few inches.

Mr. BALL. How wide was the package?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I would say the package was about that wide.

Mr. BALL. How wide would you say that would be?

Mr. FRAZIER. Oh, say, around 5 inches, something like that. 5, 6 inches or there. I don't----

Mr. BALL. The paper, was the color of the paper, that you would get in a grocery store, is that it, a bag in a grocery store?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right. You have seen, not a real light color but you know normally, the normal color about the same color, you have seen these kinds of heavy duty bags you know like you obtain from the grocery store, something like that, about the same color of that, paper sack you get there.

Mr. BALL. Was there anything more said about the paper sack on the way into town?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; there wasn't.

Mr. BALL. What route did you take into town that day?

Mr. FRAZIER. Went down--you know, I told you I had two routes; that day I went down, you know, Fifth Street runs into Sixth after you cross the Storey Road there, so I just went on down Sixth until I come to O'Connor, and then took a left on O'Connor and it takes you right on out to Stemmons and from there I went right on into Stemmons and come up Commerce, and you go up Commerce, there until you hit Record Street, that is one block over from Houston and then I went down until I hit McKinney and then it goes right down to the warehouse and then take a left and you go right around to the parking lot.

Mr. BALL. You didn't stop any place on your way in?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Park in the parking lot?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Where did you park in the parking lot this time?

Mr. FRAZIER. I parked in the same place the picture I showed you there.

Mr. BALL. As shown in the picture. That is Exhibit No. 361.

Anything else said about curtain rods?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; there wasn't.

Mr. BALL. Anything else said about the package?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; there wasn't.

Mr. BALL. Who got out of the car first?

Mr. FRAZIER. He did.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember any conversation on the way in about anything?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I asked him did he have fun playing with them babies and he chuckled and said he did. And so that morning I said just a few minutes after we started you know it was a cloudy day and it started misting and rain and by the time we got out on the Freeway I said, you know, how those trucks throw that grime on the windshield and finally it was getting pretty thick on there with spots of rain, and I turned on the windshield wiper and you know how grime spatters your windshield and I said, "I wish it would rain or just quit altogether, I wish it would do something to clear off the windshield," and the drops started getting larger so eventually it cleaned off the windshield and by the time I got down to Dallas there I just turned off the windshield.

Just a few clouds, and rained a little bit to get out of it. But other than that just saying the weather was messy, that is about all.

Mr. BALL. Was it foggy?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; not in too particular. I say in other words, just old cloudy, dull looking day and like I say fine mist of rain and after we got a little bit further we got into larger drops.

Mr. BALL. Was there anything said about the President coming to Dallas that day?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; it wasn't.

Mr. BALL. Did he say anything about that the day before?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever have any conversation with him with reference to the President's visit to Texas?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. When you got to the parking lot who got out of the car first?

Mr. FRAZIER. He did.

Mr. BALL. You didn't get out immediately then?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I was sitting there, say, looked at my watch and somewhere around 7 or 8 minutes until and I saw we had a few minutes and I sat there, and as I say you can see the Freeway, Stemmons Freeway, from the warehouse and also the trains coming back and forth and I was sitting there.

What I was doing--glanced up and watching cars for a minute but I was letting my engine run and getting to charge up my battery, because when you stop and start you have to charge up your battery.

Mr. BALL. Did you have your lunch beside you?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. BALL. Did you notice whether or not Lee had a package that looked like a lunch package that morning?

Mr. FRAZIER. You know like I told you earlier. I say, he didn't take his lunch because I remember right when I got in the car I asked him where was his lunch and he said he was going to buy his lunch that day.

Mr. BALL. He told you that that day, did he?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right. That is right. So, I assumed he was going to buy it, you know, from that catering service man like a lot of the boys do. They don't bring their lunch but they go out and buy their lunch there.

Mr. BALL. What did he do about the package in the back seat when he got out of the car?

Mr. FRAZIER. Like I say, I was watching the gages and watched the car for a few minutes before I cut it off.

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. FRAZIER. He got out of the car and he was wearing the jacket that has the big sleeves in them and he put the package that he had, you know, that he told me was curtain rods up under his arm, you know, and so he walked down behind the car and standing over there at the end of the cyclone fence waiting for me to get out of the car, and so quick as I cut the engine off and started out of the car, shut the door just as I was starting out just like getting out of the car, he started walking off and so I followed him in.

So, eventually there he kept getting a little further ahead of me and I noticed we had plenty of time to get there because it is not too far from the Depository and usually I walk around and watch them switching the trains because you have to watch where you are going if you have to cross the tracks.

One day you go across one track and maybe there would be some cars sitting there and there would be another diesel coming there, so you have to watch when you cross the tracks, I just walked along and I just like to watch them switch the cars, so eventually he kept getting a little further ahead of me and by that time we got down there pretty close to the Depository Building there, I say, he would be as much as, I would say, roughly 50 feet in front of me but I didn't try to catch up with him because I knew I had plenty of time so I just took my time walking up there.

Mr. BALL. Did you usually walk up there together.

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; we did.

Mr. BALL. Is this the first time that he had ever walked ahead of you?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; he did.

Mr. BALL. You say he had the package under his arm when you saw him?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You mean one end of it under the armpit?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; he had it up just like you stick it right under your arm like that.

Mr. BALL. And he had the lower part----

Mr. FRAZIER. The other part with his right hand.

Mr. BALL. Right hand?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. He carried it then parallel to his body?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right, straight up and down.

Representative FORD. Under his right arm?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did it look to you as if there was something heavy in the package?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I will be frank with you, I didn't pay much attention to the package because like I say before and after he told me that it was curtain rods and I didn't pay any attention to it, and he never had lied to me before so I never did have any reason to doubt his word.

Mr. BALL. Did it appear to you there was some, more than just paper he was carrying, some kind of a weight he was carrying?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, yes, sir; I say, because one reason I know that because I worked in a department store before and I had uncrated curtain rods when they come in, and I know if you have seen when they come straight from the factory you know how they can bundle them up and put them in there pretty compact, so he told me it was curtain rods so I didn't think any more about the package whatsoever.

Mr. BALL. Well, from the way he carried it, the way he walked, did it appear he was carrying something that had more than the weight of a paper?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I say, you know like I say, I didn't pay much attention to the package other than I knew he had it under his arm and I didn't pay too much attention the way he was walking because I was walking along there looking at the railroad cars and watching the men on the diesel switch them cars and I didn't pay too much attention on how he carried the package at all.

Mr. BALL. I will show you this picture again, this map, which is the Commission's Exhibit No. 361, and would you show us the way he walked, the course he walked from the place your car was parked up to the Texas School Book Depository. You come around here and here is a black pen. Show us the course that he walked.

Mr. FRAZIER. Like I say, I had that car parked.

Mr. BALL. Put an "X" there which will represent your car.

Mr. FRAZIER. All right (indicating).

Mr. BALL. That is where your car was parked?

Mr. FRAZIER. I would say roughly like in there, you know like the picture shows right in there.

Mr. BALL. Now, draw a line to show the way that he walked.

Mr. FRAZIER. O.K.

Mr. BALL. The direction he walked.

Mr. FRAZIER. All right.

Like I say, he was standing right about there when I got out of the car so naturally he started off walking so we just come on right on just like you would come across these tracks right here, and he was coming right on along the fence like that. Just coming right on, right here now is the School Book Depository, right, so he was coming right on down this fence there and he was coming across these tracks, and standing right in here somewhere at the door.

Mr. BALL. Door?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. At the end of that put a "XY", so "X" to "XY" will represent the course he walked. It shows "XY".

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Then "X" to "XY" is the course he took, is that right?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Did you go in the same door?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. BALL. You walked the same direction?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Now when he went in the door you were about 50 feet behind him?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right. The last time I saw him I was right in this area coming across these railroad tracks and I just happened to glance up and see him going through the door there and shut the door.

Mr. BALL. Let's see, the last time you saw him he was at the door?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Which is at "XY" and you were crossing the railroad tracks on Pacific Avenue?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I say this is Houston.

Mr. BALL. Pacific runs east and west?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Put a mark there, put a "Z" there as to your location.

Mr. FRAZIER. Right in there.

Mr. BALL. That is about where you were, a "Z" when he entered the door at "XY"?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Now, you went on in the Building, did you, afterwards?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right. I went on in.

Mr. BALL. Well, the first floor of the Texas School Book Depository is fairly clear, isn't it, it is clear of partitions?

Mr. FRAZIER. Pretty well. I will say we have bins after you get so far.

Mr. BALL. Toward the middle of the floor you have bins?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Did you see Lee as you walked in the door?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. Here is Commission 362 which we will show you. I will put it up high so everyone can see it. There is a picture in the lower left corner which is marked "Exterior View of Entrance Door from Houston Street Loading Dock."

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Is that the door?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. That is the door that Lee entered?

Mr. FRAZIER. That is right.

Mr. BALL. And that is also the door that you entered, is that correct?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And over to the right here is the interior view of entrance door.

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. That is the same door, isn't it?

Mr. FRAZIER. Now, this door, you see right there is that door right there.

Mr. BALL. In other words, the door in the lower left-hand corner is the outside door?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. And as you walk through--and this is the door, the outside door, is shown in the picture on the lower right-hand corner?

Mr. FRAZIER. That is right, right there, that is this same door you are looking at over here.

Mr. BALL. Then there is an interior door?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Leading into the interior that is also shown there?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. That is sort of, what is it--a little corridor that you walk through?

Mr. FRAZIER. I say it is just about that distance from here over to that man over there.

Mr. BALL. Let's take a look there.

Mr. FRAZIER. It is called the loading zone there.

Mr. BALL. This map shows certain steps up, doesn't it?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Where is the door that you entered or that he entered.

Mr. FRAZIER. Right here.

Mr. BALL. That is the door. Is that covered, is that area covered with a ceiling roof?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it is.

Mr. BALL. And this is also walled in, is it?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right. The railroad track runs along here.

Mr. BALL. After you get into this outside shed how did you get into the first floor of the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. FRAZIER. Through that door.

Mr. BALL. Through the door there, into the interior door?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. How much of the first floor here is clear so that you can see anybody there?

Mr. FRAZIER. Roughly say, let's see, just a few feet back, you know here is the door right here.

Mr. BALL. Whose door?

Mr. FRAZIER. Mr. Shelley's.

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. FRAZIER. Just a few feet back in here is where the bins start, they run this way.

Mr. BALL. Can you mark in this where the bins start, the place?

Mr. FRAZIER. Here.

Mr. BALL. Just draw a line across, you don't need to draw in the bins but just where the bins start and we we will know it is the area.

Mr. FRAZIER. Somewhere right in here.

Mr. BALL. Draw the line clear across.

We will mark the line "A" on one side and "B" on the other so that we can refer to it.

Now, the area between, all the area shown in here from entrance to line "AB", is clear, is it?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Now, the line from "AB" to the Elm Street side there are bins, are they?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. And are those bins man high?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. 6, 7 feet?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. Like I say these bins, we have two or three that run across this way, like I have this line drawn, and they have broken spaces, and you can see a man on the other side of these bins because they are not sealed up in the back.

In other words, you can put books in, say, from this side and go on the other side and have another. Anyway, we have more like these window here.

Mr. BALL. The windows on Elm Street?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right. We have some bins running this way, over here, several bins, two or three over here, and two or three over here.

Mr. BALL. Is this the only entrance to the first floor of the Building, the one you have shown us?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir, it is not.

Mr. BALL. What other entrance is there?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right here is the main entrance.

Mr. BALL. The main entrance?

Mr. FRAZIER. That is right, coming on through here.

Mr. BALL. There are two entrances. There is a main entrance in the front of the Building or the Elm Street entrance, and then there is the door through which you entered the first floor, is that right?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, then we have another.

Mr. BALL. Where?

Mr. FRAZIER. Out over here, let's see if I can find it, where the garage where we have the truck. Let's see.

Mr. BALL. There is an overhead door here.

Mr. FRAZIER. I see, right through here now, I see right through this door here we come out right here and we come out in this area right in here where we have another dock right out in this area right here, in that area there.

Mr. BALL. That would be----

Mr. FRAZIER. That would be one, two, three. From this loading, like I say, where we keep the truck.

Mr. BALL. Is this overhead door usually covered, usually down closed, rather?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I say we keep it closed, and we have it here back in cold weather and we kept it closed and like I say when you go out there and get into the truck like you are going to drive the truck.

Mr. BALL. Mark an arrow that you say is the entrance or exit, mark an arrow going out.

Mr. FRAZIER. Going out.

Mr. BALL. All right.

Now, this day did you see Lee Oswald the rest of the morning?