Part 33

Mr. FRAZIER. I remember one weekend, I say, right now I can't recall because just to be frank with you I couldn't tell you roughly; I say I might have at that time but I say it slipped my mind but the thing is I do know he rode home with me every weekend up to that but one.

Mr. BALL. And why did--did he tell you why he wasn't going to ride home that weekend?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, he did. He said he was working on his driving license and he was going to go take a driving test.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever ask him afterward if he had taken his driver's test?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I never did. I assumed that he had taken it and passed it what part of the test he was taking.

Most men do, I say, they usually work at it, study at it good enough so they don't flunk out.

Representative FORD. Do you have to get a learner's permit in Texas before you can get a driver's permit?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I say, you don't. Just two steps to it. I say, first no matter what age you are; say, when you have to be at least 14 is about the youngest you can get it in Texas and then you have to take a DE, Driver's Education, if you are going to school but otherwise, the age is 16 and you just go around to the driving license bureau there, they have an office in most any town of any size in Texas, and you just go in and see the driving license man and just tell him that you plan to take your driving test and you would like to have the auto manual, and the manual covers any laws and so forth in the State of Texas, and you can either study for your operator's or your commercial and you pick out which one you want, and you study up for it and then he is there, he tells you what days he is in his office, and so he goes there a certain time and he gives you several sheets of paper, a quiz and you answer them questions, and if you--you have to make a grade of 70 on it to pass and if you make a grade of 70 or above, well, I say, in another week or two you go down there and you say like for instance if you are going to want a driver's license for a car----

Representative FORD. Did Lee ever ask you or did Lee ever tell you whether he had ever actually applied for a driver's license?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he never had, except I told you that weekend that he said he was going down to take his driving test, and so I knew from being in the State of Texas that you have to know something; you have to have the manuals and so forth to study up on it. Or there isn't any use going down there if you don't know the rules because you are not wasting any time but your own.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember whether or not one weekend that he didn't go down with you but he rode back with you, say, on the Armistice Day holiday? Do you remember?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. BALL. Your memory is that he went, he rode home with you every Friday and came back the following Monday?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Except this one weekend?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right, that is what I say. If he went home with me on Friday afternoon he always rode back with me on Monday morning. It wasn't no added job when he would come with me on the weekend. He would ride home with me on Friday and he would come back with me on Monday.

Mr. BALL. Did he ever tell you that he had or had not applied for a driver's license?

Mr. FRAZIER. No; he had not except he told me he was going down to take it.

Mr. BALL. He never told you that he had or had not?

Mr. FRAZIER. No.

Mr. BALL. And he never told you whether he had obtained a driver's license?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he didn't.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever talk to him on whether or not he could drive a car, knew how to drive a car?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I say, I believe the first afternoon, the first time we was going home and we were talking about that and he said he was working on his driving license then, and then naturally like I told you several weeks later, then he told me he was going to take his driving test and I assumed he could drive a car being as old as he was because most everybody in the State of Texas by the time you are my age if you can't drive a car something is wrong with you.

Mr. BALL. He did never say whether he could or couldn't?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Did he ever ask you about the parts of a car?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't believe he did.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember any conversation when he asked you what the clutch was?

Mr. FRAZIER. Oh, yes. We got talking about that. He noticed, you know, most cars as old as mine, you know most of them are standard shift, and when I bought this old car it kind of fooled me it had automatic transmission on it so we got talking about it on the way home driving home and I told him that I really prefer a standard because you know, they are a lot easier to work on and you know, when an automatic goes dead it goes dead, there is no rolling a couple of feet and jumping on the clutch and starting when the battery is down.

And I remember he said it was a little bit different to drive with a clutch. I said, if you are not used to it, but if you get used to it. You have to find a friction point on any car, even on Chevrolet or Ford, you know yourself the friction points on a clutch and the brakes are different adjusted on every car you drive.

And I told you there is nothing you do. You just have to get used to a car of the individual, you can drive one car to do it, and you can drive another one it may take you a couple of days to get used to it.

Mr. BALL. He is the one who mentioned the clutch, is he, that you didn't have a clutch?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

I guess he noticed that I didn't have a clutch.

Mr. BALL. I see.

Did he pay for any part of the trip, buy your gasoline?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he didn't. I never did ask him. Because like I said I drove over there anyway and it doesn't take any more to drive one guy than it does to drive a carload.

Mr. BALL. Did he offer to pay any time?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he never did.

Mr. BALL. At any time coming back after a weekend did you ever stop at a restaurant for breakfast?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; we never did.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever stop on the way home on Friday night and buy anything?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; stopped one time and bought some gas, I remember.

Mr. BALL. Did he pay for it?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he didn't.

Mr. BALL. Did he offer to?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he didn't.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him have any money in his possession, bills, change?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I never did see him out playing around with any money.

Mr. BALL. On the way back and forth did you talk very much to each other?

Mr. FRAZIER. N,. sir; not very much. He is, probably in your line of business you have probably seen a lot of guys who talk a lot and some don't and he was one of these types that just didn't talk. And I have seen, you know, I am not very old but I have seen a lot of guys in my time, just going to school, different boys and girls, some talk a lot and some don't, so I didn't think anything strange about that.

About the only time you could get anything out of the talking was about babies, you know, he had one and he was expecting another, that was one way he had him get that job because his wife was pregnant and I would always get something out of it when I asked him about the babies because it seemed he was very fond of children because when I asked him he chuckled and told me about what he was doing about the babies over the weekend and sometimes we would talk about the weather, and sometimes he would go to work and it would be cloudy in the morning and it would come out that afternoon after work, sometimes during the day and it would turn to be just one of the prettiest days you would want anywhere, and he would say some comment about that, but not very much.

He would say a few words and then he would cut off.

Mr. BALL. Did he tell you he had been to Russia, say anything about that?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I say, we were talking about one time talking about the service, and so I asked him had he ever been overseas and he said he had, and I asked him had he ever been to Germany and he said he had been through there.

So, most times when boys are in the service in the United States they either go to Japan or, I say, they either go over there or you know, go to some of these, say, like Germany or France somewhere like that.

And so other than that he told me that he had been through there.

Mr. BALL. Did he say he had been to Russia?

Mr. FRAZIER. He said, you know, like I say, he said he had been over there and he said he had been there so I thought when he told me, yes; he had, so I thought maybe, you know, by being, I know he told me had been in service and I thought maybe that is how he got in.

Mr. BALL. In other words, your answer is yes; he did tell you he had been in Russia?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Did he go into detail and tell you how he got there and what he did there?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, he didn't. I, to be frank with you I, was more interested about France and Germany and I asked him about them towns and he told me he liked France, I mean he said not that he didn't like France, he said people in France was more the kind to con the United States boys out of their money and he was in Germany there 2 or 3 days and he said he liked Germany better than France because that is one reason. Because he said if you didn't really know how to count that French money them French guys would really take you.

Mr. BALL. Did he say anything about being in the Marines?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; he told me he was a Marine.

Mr. BALL. That he had been to Japan?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he didn't say he had been to Japan.

Mr. BALL. Ever talk about politics?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he didn't.

Mr. BALL. Ever mention any subjects like, political parties, the Democrats, Republicans?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he didn't.

Mr. BALL. Ever mention anything about Communists, Marxists or any words like that did he use?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did he tell you where he met his wife?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he didn't.

Mr. BALL. Did he ever talk much about his wife?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he didn't. I say, like I said, he was just a guy who didn't talk very much at all.

Mr. BALL. At the Texas School Book Depository, you have lunch, 45-minute lunch hour, don't you?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Did you pack your lunch from home?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir, I always took lunch.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember whether or not when Oswald came back with you on any Monday morning or any weekend did he pack his lunch?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; he did.

Mr. BALL. He did?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. When he rode with me, I say he always brought lunch except that one day on November 22 he didn't bring his lunch that day.

Mr. BALL. But every other day he brought a lunch?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right, when he rode with me.

Mr. BALL. Would he bring it in a paper sack or what kind of a container?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; like a little paper sack you get out of a grocery store, you have seen these little old sacks that you could buy, sandwich bag, sack.

Mr. BALL. Did you carry your lunch in a paper sack?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. BALL. There is a lunch room in the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Is that on the first floor?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; on the second floor.

Mr. BALL. There is some kind of a recreation room on the first floor?

Mr. FRAZIER. There is a little domino room there where some of the guys go in and play dominoes.

Mr. BALL. But the lunch room is on the second floor?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Do they sell any food there?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; they don't. About all they sell in the lunch room is different types of soft drinks and then near the window, the men who work in the offices there they have coffee there, you can drink coffee up there, I never did. Then you have an assortment of cookies and candies and peanuts and so forth on the machine there. That is about all they have.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember whether or not Oswald packed his lunch, brought his lunch on other days, the days that he didn't ride with you?

Mr. FRAZIER. To be frank with you, I don't know whether he brought his lunch because I will tell you one way, some guys bring their lunch there and some guys buy it there because we have a caterer service, you see, comes around about 10 o'clock the man comes around and several of the boys they go out there and buy their lunch from the catering service.

Mr. BALL. Then later on at 11:45?

Mr. FRAZIER. 12 o'clock is when we always eat lunch.

Mr. BALL. 12 to 12:45?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. When you get off your job, did you usually go to the lunch room on the second floor to eat your lunch?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; most of the time I don't. Most of the time you see several of us guys sitting down at our own table and we just sit there. I say we usually go up there to get something to drink and I say I have ate up there several times but most of the times I eat with the guys I work with.

Usually we just sit down and eat, and we lay down on the big tables there and sometimes talk or go to sleep.

Mr. BALL. That is on the first floor?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Did you notice where Oswald had his lunch usually?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't.

Now, I say we have a refrigerator there, some of the boys put their lunches in there.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever eat lunch with Oswald?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I never have.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him eating lunch?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I never have seen him eat lunch. I have seen him go to the Doctor Pepper machine by the refrigerator and get a Doctor Pepper but I never have seen him, you might say, sit right down and eat his lunch.

Mr. BALL. In driving back and forth with Oswald did you ever hear him--did he ever talk about guns?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he never did.

Mr. BALL. Did he ever tell you he owned a gun?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did Oswald ever say anything to you about buying an automobile in any of these trips?

Mr. FRAZIER. One time we were talking about it, he said he thought he would just buy him an old car, you know, like mine. I say most models like that you can get them pretty cheap and as far as going back and forth for work that is about all they are good for.

I said, "You don't need a new car to be used for going back and forth. You don't need it unless you drive a good-sized distance."

But that is what he said in the long run he planned to buy one but so far as I know he never did.

Mr. BALL. Did he say that once or more than once?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; just one time.

Mr. BALL. When he said he would get an old car?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did he ever tell you he had gone to an old car dealer?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did he ever tell you he had tried out a car?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. So far as I--like I say, that one time, that is as far as I can ever recall that we even talked much about anything--about cars--except a while ago he asked me--we were talking about the clutch and automatic transmission and so forth.

Mr. BALL. There is a bus service between Dallas and Irving?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; there is.

Mr. BALL. Can you get the bus anywhere near the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. FRAZIER. To be frank with you I will say I have never ridden the bus from Irving over there, but I assume you can get off there just like any other bus at any street corner you want to.

Mr. BALL. Do you know what the fare is?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. BALL. Is there a toll charge to call from Dallas to Irving?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; it is not.

Mr. BALL. For 10 cents you can call there, can you?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I say just for your regular telephone bill, you just pick it up and call.

Mr. BALL. I see.

Now, there was the one date that Oswald came to you and asked you to drive him back to Irving, it was not a Friday, was it?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; it wasn't.

Mr. BALL. It was on a Thursday.

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Was that the 21st of November?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Well, tell us about that.

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I say, we were standing like I said at the four-headed table about half as large as this, not, quite half as large, but anyway I was standing there getting the orders in and he said, "Could I ride home with you this afternoon?"

And I said, "Sure. You know, like I told you, you can go home with me any time you want to, like I say anytime you want to go see your wife that is all right with me."

So automatically I knew it wasn't Friday, I come to think it wasn't Friday and I said, "Why are you going home today?"

And he says, "I am going home to get some curtain rods." He said, "You know, put in an apartment."

He wanted to hang up some curtains and I said, "Very well." And I never thought more about it and I had some invoices in my hands for some orders and I walked on off and started filling the orders.

Mr. BALL. This was on what floor?

Mr. FRAZIER. This was on the first floor.

Mr. BALL. About what time in the morning?

Mr. FRAZIER. I would say sometime between eight and ten, because I go to work at eight and I would break at ten.

Mr. BALL. Was it at the break time or before?

Mr. FRAZIER. It was before the break.

Mr. BALL. It was before noon then?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you see him at the noon hour?

Mr. FRAZIER. That day?

Mr. BALL. That day.

Mr. FRAZIER. I don't recall, to be frank with you. You know, I will just be frank with you, I say just like after a guy works there for a while and he comes by and he walks by you, you don't pay so much attention but say like somebody else comes in there strange, you automatically just look at them.

Mr. BALL. Did you talk to him again until quitting time?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, to be frank with you, like I said, the only time--you know, like I say, he didn't talk very much and about the only time--other than like I told you about talking about them babies and about the weather sometimes he would ask me some questions about a book because down there, I say, if you have ever been acquainted with books a lot of times maybe just a little bit of difference in a title or something like that would make the difference in what type of book they want and sometimes maybe they will forget to put that on there and you look at the price.

If you can tell the price, some editions we have a paperback and some we have hard bound and the price can automatically tell you which one they want, and sometimes he would ask me something like that which book do they want and I would tell him and that was about the only conversation we had.

Mr. BALL. You didn't talk any more with him that day concerning the ride home?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. But you did go home with him?

Mr. FRAZIER. That is he rode home with me.

Mr. BALL. What time did you get off from work?

Mr. FRAZIER. 4:40.

Mr. BALL. What time did you get to Irving?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, usually get there, if you make good time, get there maybe around 5:20 or 5:25. But if you catch the traffic and catch the train crossing the tracks, it is usually about 5:30 or 5:35, it is just according to how bad the traffic is.

If you get ahead of it before it starts coming out, you can make pretty good headway.

Mr. BALL. Did you make any stop in the car before you got home?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't believe we did.

Mr. BALL. Did the two of you walk together down to the parking lot?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; we did.

Mr. BALL. And you dropped him off at the place where his wife was staying, did you?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I believe I did. I, to be frank with you I, say sometimes he rode home with me, sometimes--a little store not too far from the house, there and if I was going to the store I would just drop him off by the house, but if I wasn't going to the store he would usually go on to the corner near the house and walk the rest of the way to the house up to where his wife was staying just about a half a block from my house up to where he was, his wife was staying, so he would walk there just a little bit.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember if you talked to him any on the walk down two or three blocks down to the parking lot, anything said that you can remember?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't believe so.

Mr. BALL. When you got in the car and went home do you remember if you said anything, if you said anything to him, or if he said anything to you?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't believe he did. Like I said, he didn't talk very much. About the only time we would talk was about the weather and babies, something like that.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember this day whether or not you let him walk to the house where his wife was staying?

Mr. FRAZIER. To be frank with you, I can't remember positively whether I let him off at the house or whether he got out there where I lived, just to be frank with you.

Mr. BALL. You know where the house is, don't you?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where Mrs. Paine lives?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. How far is that from your house?

Mr. FRAZIER. Like I say, it is just about half a block up the street.

Mr. BALL. It is on the same street, is it?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I say, we lived at the corner of Westbrook and Fifth Street, and Fifth Street runs on up, you know, and I say they live on Fifth Street.

Mr. BALL. What direction does Fifth run, east, west, north or south?

Mr. FRAZIER. It runs east and west.

Mr. BALL. East and west. And you live on the corner of Westbrook and Fifth?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. And Paine's house is east or west of your house?

Mr. FRAZIER. It is west.

Mr. BALL. It is west of of your house?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. About a half block?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. On the same street. Fifth Street?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. What side of the street do you live on, the north side or south side of Fifth Street?

Mr. FRAZIER. North side.

Mr. BALL. What side of the street do the Paine's live on, the north or south side of Fifth Street?

Mr. FRAZIER. North.

Mr. BALL. You both live on the north side?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. So to walk from Paine's house to your house you walk east along the north side of Fifth Street across Westbrook, is that right?

Mr. FRAZIER. Now, from the corner of Westbrook and Fifth you walk west on the same side of the street on the north side.

Mr. BALL. On the north side?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. From your house to Paine's?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right, you walk west.

Mr. BALL. And from Paine's house to yours. OK.

Now, did you see Oswald any that night, the Thursday night----

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. You brought him home.

Next morning what time did you get up? What time did you get up the next morning?

Mr. FRAZIER. I believe I got up around 6:30, that is the time I usually get up, right around 6:30 there.

Mr. BALL. Always eat your breakfast before you go to work?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember the night before, that is after you got home that night, that your sister asked you how it happened that Oswald came home with you?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; I believe she did or something. We got to talking about something and said, I told her that he had rode home with me and told her he said he was going to come home and pick up some curtain rods or something. I usually don't talk too much to my sister, sometimes she is not there when I am in because she is either at the store or something like that and I am either when she comes in as I say I am playing with the little nieces and we don't talk too much about work or something like that.

Mr. BALL. This night, this evening, do you remember you did talk to her about the fact that Oswald had come home with you?

Mr. FRAZIER. I believe I did.

Mr. BALL. Did you tell her what he had told you?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. I believe she said why did he come home now and I said, well, he says he was going to get some curtain rods.