Part 32

Mr. EUINS. It was around about 2 or 3 o'clock.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you remember how many days after the assassination it was?

Mr. EUINS. About 4.

Mr. SPECTER. You think they might have talked to you more than once?

Mr. EUINS. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chief Justice, I move for the admission into evidence of the statement marked Commission Exhibit 367.

The CHAIRMAN. That may be admitted.

(The document heretofore marked for identification as Commission Exhibit No. 367 was received in evidence.)

Mr. SPECTER. That concludes the questioning I have, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Wright?

Mr. WRIGHT. Nothing further, Mr. Chief Justice.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chief Justice, I would like to move for the admission into evidence of all the exhibits here--365, 366, as well as 367.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well.

(The documents heretofore marked for identification as Commission Exhibits Nos. 365 and 366, were received in evidence.)

The CHAIRMAN. Amos, you may be excused, then. Thank you very much for coming and helping us out with your testimony.

We will recess until tomorrow morning at 9 o'clock.

_Wednesday, March 11, 1964_

TESTIMONY OF BUELL WESLEY FRAZIER, LINNIE MAE RANDLE, AND CORTLANDT CUNNINGHAM

The President's Commission met at 9:45 a.m. on March 11, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.

Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Sherman Cooper and Representative Gerald R. Ford, members.

Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel; David W. Belin, assistant counsel; Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel; Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel; Norman Redlich, assistant counsel; Charles Murray and Lewis E. Powell, Jr., observers.

TESTIMONY OF BUELL WESLEY FRAZIER

The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order.

Mr. BALL. I would like to assign Commission Exhibit No. 364 to a paper sack which the FBI has identified as their C-109 Exhibit. That will be the Commission's Exhibit No. 364 for identification at this time.

The CHAIRMAN. All right.

(The paper sack referred to was marked Commission's Exhibit No. 364 for identification.)

Mr. BALL. Also for the record I would like to announce that prior to--this morning, Mr. Cortlandt Cunningham and Charles Killion of the Federal Bureau of Investigation laboratory, the Ballistics Division, Firearms Division, I guess it is, broke down, that is unscrewed Commission Exhibit No. 139, an Italian rifle, and that rifle has been placed in, after being disassembled, has been placed in Commission's No. 364 for identification, that paper sack.

The CHAIRMAN. All right.

Mr. BALL. We have also here before the Commission, Commission No. 142 which is a paper sack which is identified as the FBI's Exhibit No. 10. I think that has its number, exhibit number on it.

I have been informed that was 142. My notes show that the brown paper sack is 142.

I think we can call the witness now.

The CHAIRMAN. All right; would you call Mr. Frazier, please.

Raise your right hand to be sworn, please.

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. FRAZIER. I do.

The CHAIRMAN. Will you be seated, please?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Joseph Ball of our staff will examine you, Mr. Frazier, but I would like to read a very short statement concerning the purpose of the meeting.

The purpose of today's hearing is to hear the testimony of Buell Wesley Frazier, and Linnie Mae Randle. The Commission has been advised that these two witnesses have stated that they saw Lee Harvey Oswald on the morning of November 22, 1963. The Commission proposes to ask these witnesses questions concerning their knowledge of the assassination of President Kennedy.

You have a copy of this, have you not?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. All right, you may proceed, Mr. Ball.

Mr. BALL. You call yourself Buell or Wesley?

Mr. FRAZIER. I go by Wesley.

Mr. BALL. Well, Wesley, what is your age?

Mr. FRAZIER. Sir?

Mr. BALL. What is your age?

Mr. FRAZIER. Nineteen.

Mr. BALL. Where do you live?

Mr. FRAZIER. For the time being I am living in Irving now.

Mr. BALL. Irving, Tex.?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What is the address where you live?

Mr. FRAZIER. 2439 West Fifth Street.

Mr. BALL. Did you live there in November 1963?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. BALL. And who lives in that house with you?

Mr. FRAZIER. My sister and brother-in-law and their three children.

Mr. BALL. Will you state their names, your sister's name?

Mr. FRAZIER. Linnie Mae Randle and my brother-in-law. I believe his real name is William Edward Randle. We call him Bill. They have three little girls, Diana, Patricia and Caroline Sue.

Mr. BALL. Where does your mother live?

Mr. FRAZIER. She lives in Huntsville.

Mr. BALL. Where is that?

Mr. FRAZIER. That is about 200 miles south of Dallas there.

Mr. BALL. What is the name of the town?

Mr. FRAZIER. Town, you mean where my mother lives? Huntsville.

Mr. BALL. Huntsville?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; that is about, it is about 70, 80 miles north of Houston.

Mr. BALL. What is your mother's name?

Mr. FRAZIER. Essie Mae Williams.

Mr. BALL. Was she visiting you and your sister sometime in November 1963?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; she was.

Mr. BALL. How long was she there?

Mr. FRAZIER. She was there for, I believe, for a period of about 4 or 5 weeks because my stepfather was with her and he got sick and they had to put him in the hospital and he was in the hospital 3 or 4 weeks, somewheres, 4 or 5 weeks because they were there a week before he got sick.

Mr. BALL. Then on November 21 and 22, living with you in this residence at Irving, Tex., were your mother, Mrs. Williams, and your sister, Linnie Mae Randle?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. And her husband and their three children?

Mr. FRAZIER. That is right.

Mr. BALL. Where do you work?

Mr. FRAZIER. Work at Texas School Books.

Mr. BALL. How long have you worked there?

Mr. FRAZIER. I have been working there since September.

Mr. BALL. September of 1963?

Mr. FRAZIER. Correct.

Mr. BALL. What kind of work do you do there?

Mr. FRAZIER. I fill orders.

Mr. BALL. How did you happen to get that job?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I went to see, first I come up there and started looking for a job and couldn't find one myself so I went to one of these employment agencies and through that a lady called up one morning, I was fixing to go out and look for one, I was looking for myself in the meantime when they were, too, and so she called up and gave me a tip to it if I was interested in a job like that I could go over there and see about that and for the time being I wasn't working and needed some money and so I did and I went over there and saw Mr. Truly, and he gave me an interview, and then he hired me the same day I went over there.

Mr. BALL. You say you came up, you mean you came up from Huntsville?

Mr. FRAZIER. That is right; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. That was in September 1963?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it was.

Mr. BALL. Looking for a job around Dallas?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you go to live with your sister at that time?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. BALL. What--where is the employment agency and what is its name when you first applied for a job?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I went to several but, see, this one got me this job the main one was Massey, the employment agency, and it is over there on Shady Grove Road.

Mr. BALL. In Dallas?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; in Irving.

Mr. BALL. How do you spell that name, the name of the employment agency?

Mr. FRAZIER. Massey?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. FRAZIER. I believe it is M-a-s-s-e-y.

Mr. BALL. And it was a woman at the employment agency that called you and told you to go to see the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, right.

Mr. BALL. And you went to see Mr. Truly and after an interview he gave you a job?

Mr. FRAZIER. Correct.

Mr. BALL. Then you started work there about what date in September?

Mr. FRAZIER. It was the 13th. I say that was the same day I went for an interview. I went early enough that morning that he told me to come back after lunch.

Mr. BALL. And you are still working there?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. When Mr. Truly hired you did he tell you it would be a full-time job or just a temporary job?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he told me that he was looking for somebody full time and I told him, well, that is what I wanted, and so he said that would be just fine.

Mr. BALL. How much did he start to pay you?

Mr. FRAZIER. He started me off with a dollar and a quarter an hour.

Mr. BALL. That is for an eight-hour day?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right. Five days a week.

Mr. BALL. Did you commute back and forth from your sister's home in Irving?

Mr. FRAZIER. Over there to the Texas School Books?

Mr. BALL. To the Texas School Book Depository.

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. From the first day?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And you still do?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Do you own a car?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Your own car?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You had it, did you, when you started to work?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Still have it?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And you have been since September driving that car from your sister's home in Irving over to the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. FRAZIER. Correct.

Mr. BALL. Go there in the morning?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. What time do you get to work?

Mr. FRAZIER. I get there around 8 o'clock.

Mr. BALL. When do you quit?

Mr. FRAZIER. I quit at 4:45.

Mr. BALL. Then you drive home?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How long for lunch?

Mr. FRAZIER. 45 minutes.

Mr. BALL. Do all the employees have the same lunch hour?

Mr. FRAZIER. Now, the ones who work down there filling book orders around where I work now, so we all work the same hours. Some people work up there in the offices, I hear that they come in a little bit later. Now, I don't know for sure but I see primarily the ones who does the same type of work I do, we all start the same time and work the same time.

Mr. BALL. Those are the people who fill the orders?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. How far is it in miles from your sister's home to Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. FRAZIER. It is roughly around 15 miles.

Mr. BALL. And did you take the same route every day?

Mr. FRAZIER. You mean since I have been going over there; since the first day?

Mr. BALL. That is right.

Mr. FRAZIER. Up to now?

Mr. BALL. Yes, right.

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't.

You see, I found two ways, you can more judge by the traffic and you can go some days one way and the traffic will be easier than others, but most times I use just one route.

Mr. BALL. What route did you usually use?

Mr. FRAZIER. Used one like you go down from the house there.

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. FRAZIER. Go down and right Storey Road, see Fifth Street is just one block off Storey Road, and just go down and hit Storey Road and stay on it until you come to Stemmons Freeway and you stay right on Stemmons until you come right on into Dallas there.

Mr. BALL. About what length of time does it take you to go from your sister's home to work in the morning?

Mr. FRAZIER. Usually, I usually leave not any later than 7:25. I usually try to leave about 7:20, and if you leave at 7:20, you usually get around there, by the time you get down to the parking lot now it is usually pretty close to 5 minutes to 8 and that gives you enough time to walk to the Book Depository, put up your lunch and take off your coat.

Mr. BALL. Did you have a place to park your car?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Was it assigned to you by Mr. Truly?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he just said we had a parking lot there and showed me where it was and said you can park in the parking lot.

Mr. BALL. Was that the parking lot two or three blocks from the building.

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir, it is down there; right across from the warehouse there.

Mr. BALL. Then you would walk from there from that parking lot----

Mr. FRAZIER. Up to the other Depository up there at the corner of Houston and Main.

Mr. BALL. We have here a map which has been marked as Commission's Exhibit No. 361.

Mr. FRAZIER. I see.

Mr. BALL. And north is to the bottom of the map.

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Instead of the top, as usually the case.

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. It has two pictures over here, one to the left and one to the right of the map.

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Let's take a look at the picture to the right of the map. Do you recognize that area?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. BALL. What is it?

Mr. FRAZIER. I see that is right there where you say that is the street going up to the parking lot there.

Mr. BALL. Do you recognize this car?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What car is that?

Mr. FRAZIER. That is my car.

Mr. BALL. Is that where you usually park every day?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I would say at the time being when I first started to work there I first started to park there but now I park on the other side of the fence there.

Mr. BALL. But that is a picture of the parking lot, is it?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Where you park is in the parking lot?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. I park inside the fence but what I am talking about--I park on the different side of the lot.

Mr. BALL. Different side of the same lot?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; we just have one lot there.

Mr. BALL. Do you see the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; right there.

Mr. BALL. And you walked from about the place where your car is parked?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Usually up to the Depository Building?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right, correct.

Mr. BALL. Now, the map to the left, upper left-hand corner of the map, there is a picture.

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Do you see this area where I point my finger which is marked "parking lot No. 1."

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What is that?

Mr. FRAZIER. That is the same parking lot we were looking at right here.

Mr. BALL. What route do you walk, which way do you walk when you park in this parking lot No. 1, to the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. FRAZIER. Do you want me to get up to where I can show it to you?

Mr. BALL. Yes; show it to us.

Mr. FRAZIER. I usually always come up, you know, you can come right, you see the building right down here, and you notice a series of railroad tracks, so usually early in the morning, now about 8 o'clock there is usually not any cars right here, but I say they are switching back and forth.

Mr. BALL. By "cars" you mean railroad cars?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; they usually start switching around 8 o'clock. Usually, there are not any cars, it is usually a long train that moves up pretty soon but I usually move up in this direction here, especially when it is dry. When it is wet I walk on this because it is harder. But when it is raining, I usually walk around here, because in this area right here, when you get up closer to the railroad tracks it has more trenches, and it gets muddy and slimy and you can get bogged down.

So, when it is bad weather, I usually walk on this side. But I say nine times out of ten I come up right down here.

Mr. BALL. Let's look at the map. Here is the parking lot here, is that the parking lot where you usually park?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it is.

Mr. BALL. This is parking lot No. 1.

Mr. FRAZIER. That is parking lot No. 1, isn't it?

Mr. BALL. Right.

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. We will show you this map later, but just to illustrate, how do you usually, what is the route you usually take, just show us on the board here, the route you usually take to the Texas School Book Depository Building in the morning?

Mr. FRAZIER. You mean when I am coming off of the freeway?

Mr. BALL. After you park here.

Mr. FRAZIER. You know right here, you say like the car, you notice that little house right there, I assume you have checked off. You know like I was telling you now. I usually park over in this corner. But at the time I parked right there. But anyway, there is a little cyclone fence and this was the series of railroad tracks, I was talking to you about.

Mr. BALL. That is right.

Mr. FRAZIER. I usually come down here.

Mr. BALL. Munger Street?

Mr. FRAZIER. That is right, and usually cross along the railroad tracks and come up here.

Mr. BALL. Houston Street?

Mr. FRAZIER. Houston runs into it, now they are doing some work across the tracks and you can't go any further than the tracks, right along here this line, cyclone, but that type of fence and I usually walk right up, you know.

Mr. BALL. To the buildings?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. And enter the rear of the building?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Now, we call it a loading zone out there, dock area.

Mr. BALL. Fine.

Did anyone else ride with you in the morning, usually did anyone else ride with you in the morning from home to work?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; they didn't.

Mr. BALL. Did anybody ride with you from work to home?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; they didn't.

Mr. BALL. When did you first hear of Lee Harvey Oswald, first hear the name?

Mr. FRAZIER. I first heard, I never really did know his name, we just called him Lee around there. But the first time I ever saw him was the first day he come to work.

Mr. BALL. Had you heard he was coming to work before he came to work?

Mr. FRAZIER. I will say, you know, talking back and forth with the bossman all the time and from being around and getting along real fine and so he told me, I assume the day after he hired him that he was going to have him come in on Monday and he asked me had I ever seen him and I told him then no; I had never seen him.

(At this point, Representative Ford entered the hearing room.)

Mr. BALL. Had your sister told you that this fellow Lee was coming to work?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; she did. She said one afternoon when I went home she told me she found out from one of the neighbors there he came over for that interview with Mr. Truly and Mr. Truly had hired him.

Mr. BALL. You heard that from your sister?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Before you saw him?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right, before I saw him.

Mr. BALL. When you first saw him was it a Monday morning?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; it was.

Mr. BALL. Do you have any idea of the date itself, do you have any memory of the date when you first saw him?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. BALL. Was it sometime around the middle of October, do you think, would that be close to it?

Mr. FRAZIER. It could have been because it was sometime in October because I remember I went to work there on the 13th and I had been working there, 4 or 5 weeks and then he come there.

Mr. BALL. Where was he when you first saw him?

Mr. FRAZIER. I first saw him he was--we have a table not as large as this, but just about half as large as this, and we have just like you walk up to it where I am sitting over here and we have four or five boxes there and we have different names on it, you know, for different publishing companies, and he was there getting some orders, and I say, as well as I remember, I said, the foreman there was getting him out some real easy orders. Some of the orders we have are real easy to fill, easier than the others, you don't have to know so much about the textbooks to be able to fill them and he was getting some of them easy ones out to start on, when we have a great number of them, you see, the little pamphlet type books and all we do is count them out and read the invoice number.

Mr. BALL. What was the name of the foreman showing him?

Mr. FRAZIER. You mean the foreman, that was Mr. Shelly.

Mr. BALL. S-h-e-d?

Mr. FRAZIER. S-h-e-l-l-y.

Mr. BALL. Shelly.

What floor was this on?

Mr. FRAZIER. It was on the first floor there.

Mr. BALL. Did Shelly introduce you to him or did you go up and shake hands with him?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he didn't. I remember, I knew, you know that he was going to be coming to work so naturally I hadn't been there very long, you know, living in Dallas and so I wanted to make friends with everybody I could, because you know yourself friendship is something you can't buy with money and you always need friends, so I went up and introduced himself to myself, and he told me his name was Lee and I said "We are glad to have you."

We got talking back and forth and he come to find out I knew his wife was staying down there at the time with this other woman and so I thought he would go out there and I said, "Are you going to be going home this afternoon?"

And he told me then, he told me that he didn't have a car, you know, and so I told him, I said, "Well, I live out there in Irving,"--I found out he lived out there and so I said, "Any time you want to go just let me know."

So I thought he would go home every day like most men do but he told me no, that he wouldn't go home every day and then he asked me could he ride home say like Friday afternoon on weekends and come back on Monday morning and I told him that would be just fine with me.

I told him if he wanted a ride any other time just let me know before I go off and leave him because when it comes to quitting time some of these guys, you know, some of them mess around the bathroom and some of them quit early and some of them like that and some leave at different times than others.

But I said from talking to him then, I say, he just wanted to ride home on weekends with me and I said that was fine.

Mr. BALL. Did he say at that time he was living in Dallas, he had a room in Dallas?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; he did. He had an apartment.

Mr. BALL. Did he say where?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he didn't. He just said he had an apartment over in Dallas.

Mr. BALL. Had you known his wife before that? Had you ever met his wife, Marina Oswald?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I never had.

Mr. BALL. Had you heard that a Russian girl was staying there in the neighborhood?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I say about this time I met him, you know, I knew that at the time then but I didn't think anything about it because, you know, the people travel from one country to the next all the time.

Mr. BALL. Did you know Mrs. Paine, Ruth Paine?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't until all this had happened because I will be frank with you, people around there, I say, they just don't make friends very easy. I say you can have somebody living three doors from you and you can live a couple of years and you still might not know the name.

Mr. BALL. And you had never met Mrs. Ruth Paine before the day you met Lee Oswald?

Mr. FRAZIER. No.

Mr. BALL. What kind of work did Lee do, what kind of work was assigned to him?

Mr. FRAZIER. He filled orders like I do and several other men.

Mr. BALL. How many order fillers were there employed at that time?

Mr. FRAZIER. Oh, I would say roughly around five, six at that time. Because about the time we was real busy, the busy season. I come there, you know, and they was going pretty good when I went to work there and I say we were still going pretty good when he come to work there.

We had a lot of work to do and usually when we have a lot of work to do we have more order fillers.

Mr. BALL. Did he ride home with you in your car on weekends?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; he did.

Mr. BALL. On Friday nights.

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. From that time until November 22, did he ride home with you every weekend?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he did every weekend but one.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember that date?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. BALL. In the statement you made I believe you said it was the 16th and 17th of November. I am just reminding you of that.

Does it refresh your memory any?