Part 30

Mr. WORRELL. Oh, yes. Just as I got to the corner of Exhibit 360, I heard the fourth shot.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, did these four shots come close together or how would you describe the timing in general on those?

Mr. WORRELL. Succession.

Mr. SPECTER. Were they very fast?

Mr. WORRELL. They were right in succession.

Mr. SPECTER. Now going back to the position of the rifle which you testified that you saw, you say it was either on the fifth or sixth floor?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Is there any way you can tell us which floor it was on, or would the angle of your observation permit you to be sure it was the fifth or sixth floors?

Mr. WORRELL. I am not going to say I am positive, but that one there.

Mr. SPECTER. All right, would you mark that one----

Mr. WORRELL. Because that right there, I feel, would have obstructed my vision but I said it was either on the fifth or sixth floor.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, now, will you mark with a "Y" the window which you have just pointed to?

(At this point Chief Justice Warren departed the hearing room.)

Mr. WORRELL. A "Y?"

Mr. SPECTER. A "Y."

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. You have marked the "Y" over two windows. Was it the window--which window was it there as best you can recollect, as between those two?

Mr. WORRELL. I didn't mean to bring it down that far but this one.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you put an arrow then at the window that you have just indicated, was the one where the rifle was protruding from?

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. So, the sum of it is you are not sure whether it was the fifth or the sixth floor, but you believe it was on the floor where you have marked a "Y" which is the sixth floor and that was the line of vision as you looked straight up over your head?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Where did you run, which is what you have just described that you did next?

Mr. WORRELL. Well, a better view of it is here in 360. I ran down Houston Street alongside the building and then crossed over the street, I ran alongside the building and crossed over, and in 359, I was standing over here, and I saw this man come bustling out of this door.

Mr. SPECTER. Before you get to that, Mr. Worrell, let me show you a diagram which has been prepared here, which may be of some assistance to you in telling us your movements in running. I will mark this as Commission Exhibit 361 and ask Mr. David Belin, Staff Counsel, to make a statement as to the preparation of this exhibit for the record.

Mr. BELIN. The record will show that Exhibit 361 was prepared in the exhibit section of the Federal Bureau of Investigation by Inspector Leo. J. Gauthier and Eugene Paul Airy, exhibit specialist, with the assistance of Charles D. Musser, illustrator, with particular reference to showing the Texas School Book Depository Building, and the immediate area with relation to the parking lot that employees used.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Worrell, take a good look at this. Study it for just a moment in order to get your bearings on this particular map. This is the Texas School Book Depository Building designated as such. This is Houston Street and this is the direction I am indicating that the motorcade, as you have described from the other exhibit, came from, a generally northerly direction. This is generally north, and it made the left-hand turn which you have already described for the record, onto Elm Street Parkway going down the front there.

Now perhaps the best place to start on this is with this red pencil, to put a small "X" where you were standing on this map.

Mr. WORRELL. Where I was standing?

Mr. SPECTER. Where you were standing.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. Now will you describe your movement in running as you had started to a few moments ago, indicating with a line of the red pencil just exactly where you went and describe it as you go along.

Mr. WORRELL. Well, as I said on the third shot I was looking up and pivoting and turning to run at the same time. When I got here I heard the fourth shot.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating that you were at that point right at the corner of the building on Houston?

Mr. WORRELL. Making a turn.

Mr. SPECTER. Having moved slightly to your left, and beginning to make a turn to go in a generally northerly direction on Houston Street?

Mr. WORRELL. I thought that was north.

Mr. SPECTER. No, this is north, there is a symbol showing which is north.

Mr. WORRELL. Okay. Then I turned the corner, went right down beside the building on the sidewalk and when I got to the corner----

Mr. SPECTER. Corner of what?

Mr. WORRELL. Of this building.

Mr. SPECTER. Of the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And what did you do there?

Mr. WORRELL. Cut directly across, kind of at an angle.

Mr. SPECTER. Across Houston Street as you have drawn the red line there?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, and I rested there, I was out of breath, I smoke too much, short winded.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you mark that "Y" where you stopped and rested and tell us how long you stopped there?

(Witness marking.)

Mr. WORRELL. How long?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. WORRELL. I was there approximately 3 minutes before I saw this man come out the back door here.

Mr. SPECTER. All right.

Now will you put a "Z" where you first saw the man whom you have just described or mentioned?

Mr. WORRELL. It is here I am pretty sure, I am not positive.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. You are pretty sure--but you can't be positive--but you are pretty sure?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Okay. Now, describe as best you can the man whom you have testified you saw at point "Z."

Mr. WORRELL. Describe his appearance?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes. Start by telling us how tall he was, to the best of your ability to recollect and estimate?

Mr. WORRELL. To the--it is going to be within 3 inches, 5-7 to 5-10.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate as to his weight?

Mr. WORRELL. 155 to 165.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate as to his height?

Mr. WORRELL. 5-7, 5-10.

Mr. SPECTER. Pardon me, your best estimate as to his age.

Mr. WORRELL. Well, the way he was running, I would say he was in his late twenties or middle--I mean early thirties. Because he was fast moving on.

Mr. SPECTER. Of what race was he?

Mr. WORRELL. White.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you describe the characteristics of his hair?

Mr. WORRELL. Black.

Mr. SPECTER. Did he have----

Mr. WORRELL. Well, I will say brunette.

Mr. SPECTER. Did he have a full head of hair, a partial head of hair, or what?

Mr. WORRELL. Well, see, I didn't see his face, I just saw the back of his head and it was full in the back. I don't know what the front looked like. But it was full in the back.

Mr. SPECTER. What clothes did the man have on?

Mr. WORRELL. Dark, like a jacket like that.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating a dark gray jacket?

Mr. WORRELL. No, no. It was a jacket like that.

Mr. SPECTER. A suit jacket?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Or was it a sports jacket?

Mr. WORRELL. Sports jacket.

Mr. SPECTER. Did not have on matching coat and trousers?

Mr. WORRELL. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Was it dark in color or light?

Mr. WORRELL. It was dark in color. I don't know whether it was blue, black, or brown, but it was dark, and he had light pants. And that is all I can say on his clothes, except his coat was open and kind of flapping back in the breeze when he was running.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, are there any other distinguishing characteristics that you can describe about him?

Mr. WORRELL. Not a thing.

Mr. SPECTER. What did he----

Mr. WORRELL. He wasn't holding nothing when he was running. He was just running.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe him do, if anything?

Mr. WORRELL. Well, when he ran out here, he ran along the side of the Depository Building and then when he got----

Mr. SPECTER. Make a dotted line as to where he went, or take this black pencil and make a line as to where he went.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. Where did you see him eventually go?

Mr. WORRELL. Well, he went on further.

Mr. SPECTER. Is that the last you saw him?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And did something come between you and him so that your vision was obstructed?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. As of the point you have just dotted out there?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What obstructed your view of him at that juncture or at that point?

Mr. WORRELL. I can't really be sure, it was a building, but the type of building, I don't know.

Mr. SPECTER. During the course of your seeing him, did you ever get a view of his face?

Mr. WORRELL. Oh, no, no.

Mr. SPECTER. All right. What did you do next, Mr. Worrell?

Mr. WORRELL. Well, I went on down this way and headed up back to Elm Street.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating you went on down to Pacific?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And then proceeded----

Mr. WORRELL. No, no; that is wrong. I went on Pacific and----

Mr. SPECTER. Just a minute. You proceeded from point "Y" on in a generally northerly direction to Pacific and then in what direction did you go on Pacific, this would be in an easterly direction?

Mr. WORRELL. I went east.

Mr. SPECTER. You went in an easterly direction how many blocks down Pacific?

Mr. WORRELL. I went down to Market and from Market I went on Ross.

Mr. SPECTER. You went left on Market down to Ross, and then?

Mr. WORRELL. From Ross I went all the way to Ervay.

Mr. SPECTER. Where were you heading for at that time?

Mr. WORRELL. For the bus stop near my mother's office. And I rode the bus from there out to the school and hitchhiked the rest of the way to Farmers Branch.

Mr. SPECTER. All right. When did you first report to any official what you had seen and heard on this occasion?

Mr. WORRELL. Well, I turned the TV on early next morning to see what had happened, and Chief Curry was making a plea----

Senator COOPER. Is that going to become a part of the evidence at this point?

Mr. WORRELL. Chief Curry was making a plea for anyone who had seen the shooting, would they please come down and make a statement. So I called the Farmer Branch police, and told them, and they come and picked me up, and they called the Dallas police, and they come way out there and picked me up and took me downtown to make a statement and brought me back home.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Worrell, before we leave this Exhibit 361, are you able to testify as to the accuracy of the scale drawing here which represents the part of it that you have testified about, specifically the presence of the Texas School Book Depository Building on the northwest corner of Elm and Houston. Is that the accurate location of that building?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And is it an accurate reproduction of the intersection of Elm and Houston leading into the parkway on Elm Street?

Mr. WORRELL. As far as this?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes.

Mr. WORRELL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. As far as all the parts you have testified about Elm and Houston. Is it accurate that Pacific is one block in the northerly direction away from Elm Street?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And Ross is another block, generally, in a northerly direction away from Pacific?

Mr. WORRELL. No, Ross is over here. This is Record Street.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, first there is Elm, then there is Pacific, and then there is Ross. Is that much accurate as the map shows it to be, is that the way the streets are laid out?

Mr. WORRELL. I think so.

Mr. SPECTER. How about the general width of Houston Street in relation to the general width of the Texas School Depository Building, is that about right?

Mr. WORRELL. I don't know, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. All right, that is fine.

At the same time that we have marked Exhibit 361, Mr. Chairman, I would like to use the next number in sequence, No. 362 to mark the other half of this same exhibit which is designated Texas School Book Depository floor plan of the first floor, which we will not use at this time, but I would like to mark it in sequence.

And at this time I ask that Commission Exhibits Nos. 359, 360, 361, and 362 be admitted into evidence.

Senator COOPER. So ordered. Let those exhibits be admitted as part of the evidence.

(The documents referred to, heretofore marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 359, 360, 361, and 362 were admitted into evidence.)

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Worrell, you had told us that you heard a plea by Chief of Police Curry for all witnesses to come forward.

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And you heard that plea on the 23d of November?

Mr. WORRELL. It was on Saturday.

Mr. SPECTER. What action, if any, did you take in response to that request?

Mr. WORRELL. I called on the phone to the Farmers Branch police.

Mr. SPECTER. You called who?

Mr. WORRELL. The Farmers Branch police.

Mr. SPECTER. I see. And what did you do then?

Mr. WORRELL. Well, I told them what I had seen and they said, "Well, stay there and we will come and get you."

Mr. SPECTER. Did they come and get you?

Mr. WORRELL. Oh, yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you then tell the police what you had seen and heard?

Mr. WORRELL. I told a Lt. Butler what I had seen, and I don't know if--they placed the call into the Dallas police and something like an hour later they came to pick me up there.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you make a statement or take an affidavit on what you had seen and heard?

Mr. WORRELL. To the Dallas police?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes.

Mr. WORRELL. Oh, yes, sir. I made a statement and signed five of them.

Mr. SPECTER. I will show you a paper which is marked Commission Exhibit 363 which purports to be an affidavit bearing your signature.

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Let me ask you first of all if that is your signature?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And would you take just a minute, take your time and read that affidavit over, please.

Have you had a chance to read that over, Mr. Worrell?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you tell us that you signed five different statements or five copies of the same statement?

Mr. WORRELL. Five copies of the same statement.

Mr. SPECTER. Is this the statement which you signed in affidavit form at that time?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And----

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. As you have just--have you had time to read it over just now?

Mr. WORRELL. Oh, yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Is that statement accurate based on your current recollection of the event?

Mr. WORRELL. It is accurate down to, well, I changed my height to 5-8 from 5-7.

Mr. SPECTER. Aside from that minor variation, is it accurate in its entirety; that is, is it all accurate?

Mr. WORRELL. Well, I left out, when I was making my affidavit, I left out, while I was running I heard a gun fire two more times. Well, as I told you, I was turning the corner when I heard it and saw it fire the third time, and then the fourth.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, are there any other additions or modifications that you would like to make from the contents of your statement in accordance with your recollection at this moment?

Mr. WORRELL. I can't verify that--the time they got here because I am not too sure of that.

Mr. SPECTER. You are not sure of that now?

Mr. WORRELL. No.

Mr. SPECTER. All right.

Are there any other modifications that you would want to make in the contents of the statement?

Mr. WORRELL. Leave out firecracker. It sounded, it was too loud for a firecracker.

Mr. SPECTER. Your current recollection is that it was too loud for a firecracker?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Is there any other respect in which your current recollection differs from this affidavit?

Mr. WORRELL. Instead of looking I ran, I looked up.

Mr. SPECTER. Is there any other respect in which your current recollection differs from the affidavit?

Mr. WORRELL. Well, I left out on the barrel of the rifle, I left out part of the stock. I didn't recollect that at that time.

Mr. SPECTER. Is there any other aspect in which your current recollection differs from the facts set forth in this affidavit?

Mr. WORRELL. Well, everything else is O.K.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate as to the length of time between the first shot and the last shot which you heard?

Mr. WORRELL. The best estimate 5, 6 seconds.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you talked to, been interviewed by or given a statement to any Federal agent?

Mr. WORRELL. The FBI down at Dallas.

Mr. SPECTER. How many times have you seen the FBI agents?

Mr. WORRELL. Once.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recollect the names of the agents you saw?

Mr. WORRELL. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recollect when it was that you saw those agents?

Mr. WORRELL. It was on that Saturday, the 23d.

Mr. SPECTER. And where were you when you saw them?

Mr. WORRELL. In the Dallas Police Station.

Mr. SPECTER. How long did that interview last?

Mr. WORRELL. Thirty minutes.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you sign a statement for them?

Mr. WORRELL. I just signed it for the Dallas police. They didn't have me sign anything.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you been interviewed by any other Federal agent or representative?

Mr. WORRELL. Well, Mr. Sorrels interviewed me when he called me and asked me some questions when he called me up Wednesday night, I guess it was.

Mr. SPECTER. Was that in relationship to your coming here to this Commission hearing?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. What sort of questions did Mr. Sorrels ask you?

Mr. WORRELL. What I saw. And I told him.

Mr. SPECTER. Was that just on the telephone?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. How long did that conversation last?

Mr. WORRELL. Not very long. He talked to my mother first. He talked to her for 15 minutes, something like this.

Mr. SPECTER. Was he talking to her about what you saw or about travel arrangements to get you here?

Mr. WORRELL. I don't know. I was watching television, I didn't know even who she was talking to.

Mr. SPECTER. All right. Aside from that conversation with Mr. Sorrels and the interview you have had with the FBI, have you ever talked with any agent or representative of the Federal Government.

Mr. WORRELL. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you talked to any police official of Dallas or the State of Texas after you gave this affidavit?

Mr. WORRELL. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Based on seeing only the back of this man, were you ever able to make any identification of him?

Mr. WORRELL. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chairman, I move for the admission into evidence of the other exhibit which we have used with Mr. Worrell being Commission Exhibit No. 362.

Senator COOPER. The exhibit will be admitted to evidence.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 362 for identification and received in evidence.)

Mr. SPECTER. That concludes our questions.

Senator COOPER. You stated that, I believe, you looked up after you had heard the first report?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. You looked up and saw the barrel of a rifle, and then the rifle fired. What made you know that it fired?

Mr. WORRELL. Pardon?

Senator COOPER. How did you know it was fired when you were looking at it?

Mr. WORRELL. Well, I saw what you might call a little flame and smoke.

Senator COOPER. You saw something that came out of the barrel?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. Were you looking at it when you heard the third report?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir, looking at it, turning around and started to run.

Senator COOPER. Did you see anything then?

Mr. WORRELL. Same thing, a little flash of fire and then smoke. I didn't see it on the fourth one.

Senator COOPER. Did you only look at the car in which the President was riding one time when you said you saw him slump?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. Did you look back at the President's car then?

Mr. WORRELL. No, sir. I didn't do that because I mean I didn't know if there was one or more guns, because I wondered why if it was in such rapid succession being a bolt action, I found out later, and I didn't know what was coming off, so I was running to the back of the building because I figured that would be the safest place.

Senator COOPER. Did you see anyone in the windows, in the Texas Depository Building?

Mr. WORRELL. No, sir.

Senator COOPER. Did you notice where this man you have described later as running away from the building, did you see him come out of the building?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. Where?

Mr. WORRELL. At the back entrance. Approximately where I put the mark "Z."

Senator COOPER. Was he running all the time you saw him?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir, he sure was.

Senator COOPER. That is all.

Mr. WRIGHT. Prior to hearing the first shot, had you looked up at the School Book Depository Building?

Mr. WORRELL. No, sir; I sure didn't.

Mr. WRIGHT. That is all.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to observe the direction of the barrel which you have described?

Mr. WORRELL. Pointing right down at the motorcade.

Mr. SPECTER. Any special part of the motorcade?

Mr. WORRELL. I mean, I couldn't really say that because it was too high up and he could have been pointing at anyone of the cars. I mean I couldn't tell from where I was standing.

Mr. SPECTER. Was it on the part of the motorcade which had turned down Elm Street or on the part of the motorcade that was still on Houston or what?

Mr. WORRELL. It was the part that was turned down Elm Street.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Worrell, we have a report of the Federal Bureau of Investigation which contains a purported interview with you, designated as report of Robert P. Gemberling dated November 30, 1963, which has this statement:

"He"--referring to you--"stated that last night when he saw photographs of Lee Harvey Oswald on television he felt this was the person he had seen running away from the building. He stated this person did not look back but he was certain this was a white person since he had a profile view."

My question, first of all, to you: Did you have a profile view of the man who ran away from the building that you described?

Mr. WORRELL. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. The second question is, did you tell the FBI that you had a profile view?

Mr. WORRELL. No, sir, I sure didn't.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you tell the FBI agent who interviewed you, that you felt that this person was Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. WORRELL. I don't know if I did or not.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see anyone else leave the building, that is the Texas School Book Depository Building, except the man you have already described to us?

Mr. WORRELL. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.

Senator COOPER. Are there any further questions? I believe we will stand in recess until 2 o'clock.

(Whereupon, at 1:10 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)

Afternoon Session

TESTIMONY OF AMOS LEE EUINS

The President's Commission reconvened at 2:15 p.m.

The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will come to order.

Amos, will you stand up, please, and raise your right hand?

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. You may be seated. How old are you?

Mr. EUINS. Sixteen.

The CHAIRMAN. All right.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chief Justice, should we start by reading the purpose?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes. I think you received a copy of this statement. But I just want to say to you that the purpose of today's hearing is to hear the testimony of Arnold Louis Rowland, James Richard Worrell, Robert H. Jackson, and yourself who were in the vicinity of the assassination scene on November 22, 1963. The Commission proposes to ask you facts concerning your knowledge of the assassination of President Kennedy.

You understand that?

Mr. EUINS. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. All right.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you tell us your full name for the record, please?

Mr. EUINS. Amos Lee Euins.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your exact date of birth, Amos?

Mr. EUINS. January 10, 1948.

Mr. SPECTER. January 10, 1948?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And are you a school boy at the present time?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What school do you go to?