Part 3

Representative FORD. Was it in December or January?

Mr. MARTIN. It was in January, I believe.

Mr. REDLICH. And you transmitted Mr. Lane's message to Marina?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, and she said that she didn't want any representation for Lee.

Mr. REDLICH. Did you tell her this in English?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, and explained it to her, and at that time she could understand.

Mr. DULLES. To your knowledge, did Marina ever meet Mr. Lane?

Mr. MARTIN. Not to my knowledge, no.

Mr. REDLICH. And you also related the Ruth Paine, second Ruth Paine, visit to your home to something which you referred to as the American Civil Liberties Union business.

Mr. MARTIN. It was right after--these incidents happened rather closely. The letter from the Civil Liberties Union--well, first we received a telephone call from the Civil Liberties Union wanting to see Marina Oswald.

Representative FORD. Telephone call from Dallas or New York, or what?

Mr. MARTIN. From Richardson, the same person who wrote the letter which you have there. Do you have that?

Mr. REDLICH. We do have. We are inventorying many of these documents of which the American Civil Liberties letter is one and we will introduce it at an appropriate time.

Mr. MARTIN. Richardson is a suburb of Dallas. This gentleman called, what was his name?

Mr. LEECH. I can't remember it.

Mr. REDLICH. Would it refresh your recollection if I mentioned the name Olds?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, Greg Olds. He called on the phone and wanted to see Marina Oswald, wanted to make sure she was being properly represented, that she knew her rights, and so on and so forth.

John Thorne talked to him, and told him that he represented Marina Oswald, and that he was definitely sure that all her rights were being observed.

Then I think there was another phone call from them still wanting to see Marina Oswald, and I talked to Marina and she said well, she would talk to him. So they arranged a meeting with a third party, I can't remember his name, who was a minister of some kind, and then Marina changed her mind and said no, she didn't want to go at all, she didn't want to talk to any of them. So then they wrote the letter. They wrote a letter to her in Russian and sent one to me in English, one to John Thorne in English, and I believe one to the Secret Service and one to the FBI.

Mr. LEECH. Do you want to mention about their press releases at this time?

Mr. MARTIN. There were a number of press releases at that time also that she was being held incognito and not able to----

Mr. REDLICH. You mean incognito or incommunicado?

Mr. MARTIN. Incommunicado.

Representative FORD. Press releases by whom?

Mr. MARTIN. The Civil Liberties Union, and so they sent this letter to her and she answered it with a two-page letter in Russian.

Representative FORD. In Russian?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. Do you have a copy of that two-page letter?

Mr. MARTIN. No. She wrote it, put it in an envelope, put a stamp on it and I mailed it. I didn't open it or look in it in any way. And that seemed to be the end of it, but they still persisted they wanted to see her.

Mr. REDLICH. And the reason Marina did not see them was entirely her own volition?

Mr. MARTIN. Her own.

Mr. DULLES. She never talked to you about what was in the letter?

Mr. MARTIN. No, she said she just told them she didn't want to see them.

Mr. DULLES. In two pages?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir; This was quoted, a portion of the letter was quoted, in the Worker.

Representative FORD. I suggest, Mr. Chairman, that we get, if possible, a copy of the original of that letter.

Mr. MARTIN. You probably can get it from Greg Olds.

Mr. DULLES. Would you make a note of that. I think we should do that.

That was dated sometime in the middle of January?

Mr. MARTIN. I believe so. The letter you have--she wadded the letter up that was written to her in Russian and threw it away, and I got it back out, and asked her to go ahead and write them a letter so it would quiet them. So she said she would and she wrote a letter, I think, that night, so it would be within a couple of days of the date of that letter, the English copy of which you have.

Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Chairman, if you would like, we could take a 3- or 4-minute recess and I could get the American Civil Liberties Union letter to Marina Oswald and introduce it at this time for the sake of clarity in the record.

Mr. DULLES. Good. It is a good time for a breather.

(Short recess.)

The CHAIRMAN. All right, gentlemen, the Commission will be in order.

You are familiar with, Mr. Dulles, you are familiar with, the hearing up to date. You go right ahead and preside, if you will.

Mr. DULLES. Mr. Redlich will you go right ahead with your questions?

Mr. REDLICH. I believe Congressman Ford, you said you wanted to ask your questions prior to your leaving.

Representative FORD. Do you wish to have that letter entered as an exhibit at this point before I ask several questions?

Mr. REDLICH. The witness has produced before this Commission a letter which I now mark Commission Exhibit No. 331 on the Dallas Civil Liberties Union stationery, addressed to Mr. John Thorne, James Martin, Mr. Sorrels, Secret Service, Mrs. Lee H. Oswald, and the Federal Bureau of Investigation.

I ask that it be introduced in evidence.

Mr. DULLES. Any objection?

Mr. LEECH. No.

Mr. DULLES. It will be introduced.

(The letter referred to was marked for identification as Commission Exhibit No. 331 and received in evidence.)

The CHAIRMAN. Have you seen it?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Chief Justice, we have introduced that because just prior to the recess we were discussing it and Congressman Ford indicated he had to leave I believe and I wanted to ask some questions.

The CHAIRMAN. Go ahead.

Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one question on this letter for clarification? It is my understanding it is your belief that Mrs. Oswald received a copy of this letter in Russian?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, she received a letter on this letterhead written in Russian. Now whether it was an exact copy, I don't know.

Mr. DULLES. About the length of this letter as far as you could tell?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. At about the same time?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, it was the same day.

Mr. DULLES. That was the letter she crumpled up and put in the wastepaper basket?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. But you retrieved it from the wastepaper basket, did you not say?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir, and asked her to answer it.

Mr. DULLES. Where is that copy that you retrieved from the wastepaper basket?

Mr. MARTIN. I don't know.

Mr. DULLES. Maybe reassigned to the wastepaper basket?

Mr. MARTIN. It may have been, yes.

Representative FORD. I believe that was the letter that Mr. Redlich indicated he would get a copy from the Dallas Chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union.

Mr. MARTIN. Her answer is what he wanted to get.

Mr. REDLICH. I think Congressman Ford is right. We might be able to get both a copy of the letter and their answer.

Mr. DULLES. Their statement in this letter is the English of the Russian translation which they sent to her. I think it would be adequate, wouldn't it?

Mr. REDLICH. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. It seems to me it would be adequate for our purposes.

Mr. REDLICH. We will contact the Dallas Division on that.

Representative FORD. Marina testified here, and she has said elsewhere, that based on the facts as she now knows them, she believes that Lee was guilty of the assassination of President Kennedy.

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Representative FORD. Was that her attitude when you first met her?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, when I first met her, we didn't converse very well at all. There was lack of communication because of the language barrier, and I didn't discuss it with her probably until the latter part of December, although she was speaking fairly good English by the 15th of December.

Representative FORD. When you first discussed it with her, what was her attitude?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, she said she thought he was crazy.

Representative FORD. But did she indicate when you first discussed the question of guilt or not being guilty, what was her attitude?

Mr. MARTIN. She thought he was guilty.

Representative FORD. The first time you discussed the matter?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Representative FORD. Did she indicate why?

Mr. MARTIN. No. I asked her why, and she said it was just a feeling.

Representative FORD. At that point had she----

Mr. MARTIN. A woman's feeling.

Representative FORD. At that point had she been given or shown the evidence that had been accumulated by various agencies of the Federal Government?

Mr. MARTIN. I don't know. I assume she had through the FBI. The FBI were showing her pictures and numerous things. I was not in on any of the questioning at all.

Mr. DULLES. Had she read the papers or had them read to her as far as you know at that period?

Mr. MARTIN. Some of them, yes.

Mr. DULLES. Newspapers, I mean.

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Representative FORD. From that first conversation you had with her about this matter, the guilt of Lee Harvey Oswald, she has never changed her mind?

Mr. MARTIN. No, and I have never heard her say anything other than he was guilty.

Representative FORD. Did you ever discuss with Marina the conversation she had with Lee Harvey Oswald at the Dallas police station the day he was apprehended or the day following. Or at any time prior to his death?

Mr. MARTIN. The only time she said anything about it was that he told her not to worry and to make sure and get the--get June a pair of shoes.

Representative FORD. She told you that is what he said to her?

Mr. MARTIN. That is what he said, yes.

Representative FORD. There was nothing extraordinary that she told you about the conversation?

Mr. MARTIN. No, sir.

Representative FORD. Other than what you have indicated?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes. He said not to worry. Everything would be all right.

Representative FORD. Did you ever ask her about this conversation that she had with Lee Harvey Oswald while he was at the Dallas police station?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Representative FORD. As her manager, as the manager of Marina, did you have anything to do with the change of her appearance? Many people have said to me the first picture they saw of her and the subsequent pictures they saw of her she was wearing different kind of clothes. She had a different hair-do, and so forth. Did you have anything to do with that?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Representative FORD. What was the purpose of that?

Mr. MARTIN. Just to change her general appearance so she wouldn't be recognized when she went out.

Representative FORD. Did she agree to this, was she willing to do it?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes. She didn't like her haircut particularly.

Representative FORD. She liked the previous way it was?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Representative FORD. How about the change in clothes, the type that she wore?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, of course, that was for the better.

Representative FORD. Did she like it?

Mr. MARTIN. She liked the clothes, yes.

Representative FORD. That is all.

Mr. MARTIN. She tried makeup but that didn't work, because she couldn't stand makeup.

Mr. REDLICH. We previously asked you, Mr. Martin, about various people that Marina Oswald knew in the Dallas-Fort Worth area and you have indicated the extent to which you knew them personally and the extent to which they had contacted Marina Oswald during the time she was in your home.

Are there any other friends of Marina Oswald's rather than those I have asked you about that you--who attempted to contact her while she was living at your home?

Mr. MARTIN. Ilya, I believe it is Mamatav or Mamantov--he is of the Dallas Police Department and he has asked of her how she is.

Mr. REDLICH. Has he ever seen her, to the best of your knowledge other than in an official capacity?

(At this point, Congressman Ford left the hearing room.)

Mr. MARTIN. Well, one time when we went to Sears, Sears Roebuck in Dallas, and walked into the store he was walking and practically ran into her, and they said hello and passed the time of day and he left.

Mr. REDLICH. There were no other friends of hers that you know about who attempted to see her or call her while she was living at your home?

Other than those we have already discussed on the record? If I mentioned the name of Mr. or Mrs. Teofil Meller--the first name is Teofil, the last name is Meller.

Mr. MARTIN. Well, there was someone that called the office one day and had a rather odd name, was that Meller, and said that Marina wanted to talk to her, and we took it just for a crank call. She wouldn't leave the number or anything like that. I am not sure whether that was Meller.

(Discussion off the record.)

(At this point, Senator Cooper entered the hearing room.)

Mr. MARTIN. There was no telephone number involved.

Mr. REDLICH. You have discussed at length the attempt of Ruth Paine to see Mrs. Oswald. Did Mike Paine ever attempt to see Mrs. Oswald while she was living at your home?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Have you ever talked to Michael Paine?

Mr. MARTIN. No. When we went over to get the clothes, for instance, he stood back--I don't believe he said anything at all. It was a very odd situation. He was helping us move things but he didn't say anything.

Mr. REDLICH. Did Marina ever discuss Michael Paine with you?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Only Ruth Paine but not Michael Paine?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes. She said they were separated.

Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, did Marina ever discuss with you her husband's desire to go to Cuba?

Mr. MARTIN. She said that he had wanted to go to Cuba because he wanted--because he wasn't happy in Russia and he wasn't happy in the United States and then she said he wouldn't be happy in Cuba either.

Mr. REDLICH. Did she ever discuss with you a plan to hi-jack a plane?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Did she ever indicate what steps he was taking to get to Cuba?

Mr. MARTIN. No. Not at all.

Mr. REDLICH. Do you have any knowledge at all of any plans he was making to get to and live in Cuba?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Ford has asked you about the conversations which Marina had with Lee Oswald at the Dallas Police Station on November 23 and you have replied. I would like to ask you about any--your knowledge about any conversation which Robert Oswald had with Lee Oswald while he was in the custody of the Dallas Police prior to his death?

Mr. MARTIN. I have no knowledge at all of that.

Mr. REDLICH. You have never had any conversations with Robert Oswald concerning his conversations with Lee Oswald.

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Have you ever talked to Mrs. Marguerite Oswald concerning any conversations which she had with her son while he was in the custody of the Dallas police?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Have you had any conversations at all with Mrs. Marguerite Oswald concerning the facts surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy?

Mr. MARTIN. No, I don't think any direct conversation, I mean between she and I. I was present at times out there at the Inn when she was talking to this person or that person. But I don't believe I have had any direct conversation with her at all.

Mr. REDLICH. Did Mrs. Marguerite Oswald ever discuss with you an incident concerning a photograph which was supposed to have been shown to her by agents of the FBI on November 23, 1963.

Mr. MARTIN. No, I have heard that through news media but that is the only place I heard it.

Mr. REDLICH. You have no direct knowledge of that incident yourself. Did Marina Oswald ever discuss that incident with you?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Did Marina Oswald ever discuss with you her mother-in-law's allegations that Lee Oswald was acting as an agent of the United States Government?

Mr. MARTIN. No. She mentioned only one incident where the FBI came to their house when they were in Oak Cliff, and they took him down to the car, I believe he was about ready to sit down to dinner when they arrived, and they took him down to the car and talked to him, and Marina was upset because dinner was spoiling, and I think that is the only reference she has made to anything like that.

Mr. REDLICH. She has never discussed with you the specific claims of Marguerite Oswald in that respect?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. In the course of your conversations with Marina Oswald or in the course of the preparation of any stories or releases on Mrs. Oswald's behalf have you ever discussed with Mrs. Oswald the events of November 21 and the morning of November 22?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. Could you relate those conversations to us?

Mr. MARTIN. He came home Thursday night, which was unusual.

Mr. REDLICH. Just so the record is clear, I hope you are relating to us now what Marina Oswald has related to you and not what you have read in any publication.

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. All right.

Mr. MARTIN. And, let's see, this was sometime in December that she was telling me this--no, I remember when it was, when she was moving from the Inn to my home.

Mr. REDLICH. By the Inn you mean----

Mr. MARTIN. The Inn of the Six Flags. She was in the back seat and Leon Gopadze was in the front seat talking with her, and she told him that he had come home Thursday night and that----

Mr. DULLES. In Russian?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. This was a conversation in Russian?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes. Lee translated it for me, Gopadze translated it.

Mr. DULLES. Afterwards or as it took place.

Mr. MARTIN. As it took place, well, it was immediately afterwards, and she made a comment that he had left his wedding band on the dresser, I think, and she got up the next morning she found his wedding band on the dresser, which was strange.

Now, that is the only thing that relates to that period that I have heard her say. Now, I didn't actually hear her say that.

Mr. REDLICH. You have had no other conversations with her with regard to the period of November 21 and the morning of November 22?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Do you have any knowledge of the story which Marina Oswald prepared in Russian and which she has sent to this Commission?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. Could you state the extent of your knowledge?

Mr. MARTIN. I knew it was written, and written by her, and that is about the extent of it.

Mr. REDLICH. Was it ever translated for you?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, we have part of it translated, a portion of it.

Mr. REDLICH. Are there any parts of that story which you now believe to be inaccurate?

Mr. MARTIN. No, I don't have the whole thing translated, but I think everything that is translated, I have no reason to doubt.

Mr. REDLICH. Did you assist Marina Oswald in the preparation for her television appearance in January on CBS television?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. Are there any portions of that interview which you now believe to be inaccurate in any respect?

Mr. MARTIN. No. We set a format for CBS to use, specific questions, and Marina was not prompted as to the answers to give. Those were impromptu. But we went over the ones with her off the camera, and asked her the questions so that she would understand them, and then she answered them, and the second time she did it on camera.

Mr. REDLICH. To the best of your knowledge and recollection those answers were accurate?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes. I can't remember them. But none of them struck me as being----

Mr. REDLICH. Apart from the newspaper clippings which we went through this morning and afternoon, are you familiar with any other narrative prepared by or for Marina Oswald?

Mr. MARTIN. Prepared by or for?

Mr. REDLICH. Yes.

Mr. MARTIN. You mean other than newspaper articles?

Mr. REDLICH. Other than the newspaper articles which we discussed this morning and this afternoon.

Mr. MARTIN. Life magazine.

Mr. REDLICH. Did you have anything to do with the recent story in Life magazine?

Mr. MARTIN. No, we had nothing on that other than the picture. Time magazine, she was interviewed for Time magazine.

Mr. REDLICH. When was that?

Mr. MARTIN. Saturday--Friday--she was here in Washington.

Mr. REDLICH. If I may refresh your recollection, she completed her testimony before this Commission at approximately 5:30 on Thursday, February 6.

Mr. MARTIN. Well, I believe it was Friday. We held a press conference on Friday afternoon, and I think it was Friday night then.

Mr. REDLICH. It would be sometime after the completion of her testimony is that correct?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. Were you with her during the course of that interview?

Mr. MARTIN. It must have been Thursday night. It was Thursday night because Secret Service was still with her.

Mr. REDLICH. You believe this interview took place on Thursday night?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. That would be February 6?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. Were you with her during the course of this interview?

Mr. MARTIN. Part of the time. I left John Thorne and Marina and the Time reporter at the table. June was restless, and I was walking her around the restaurant.

Mr. REDLICH. Have you read the interview?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. Are there any portions of it which you now believe to be inaccurate, to the best of your recollection?

Mr. MARTIN. I don't think so. I would have to re-read it to make it definite, make a definite statement on it.

Mr. REDLICH. On the basis of conversations which you had during the course of the testimony of Marina Oswald before this Commission and on the basis of conversations which you have had subsequent to that time, do you have any opinion concerning the truthfulness of the testimony which she presented before this Commission?

Mr. MARTIN. No. I think primarily she is truthful, and I think that under oath she would tell the truth.

Mr. REDLICH. Are you still Mrs. Oswald's business representative?

Mr. MARTIN. According to the contract, yes. According to my contract with her.

Mr. REDLICH. Have you received any communication from her which raises questions as to whether you are still her business representative?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Are we really concerned with that?

Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Chairman, I intend to ask the witness why he was discharged in terms of whether it had anything to do with any business negotiations or anything to do with the testimony of Mrs. Oswald before this Commission.

The CHAIRMAN. You can ask him if it has anything to do with her testimony. We are not interested in her business affairs.

Mr. REDLICH. I merely wanted to establish the fact of----

The CHAIRMAN. This thing can go on interminably with all this minutia and things that don't bear on what we are here to find out, whatever his business relations are with Mrs. Oswald, it seems to me is his business and not ours.

Mr. REDLICH. Did Mrs. Oswald's attempt to terminate the relationship with you relate in any way to her testimony before this Commission?

Mr. MARTIN. No. There was no reason given.

Mr. REDLICH. Did it relate in any way, in your opinion, to any information which you may have given to anyone else with regard to your knowledge of the facts concerning the assassination of President Kennedy.

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Do you know Jack Ruby?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. Would you tell us about your association with him?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, it is a very minor association. I had been working in the Statler Hotel in Dallas as assistant manager for maybe six months before I met him, and met him through some of the other people in the hotel.

Mr. DULLES. What year was this?

Mr. MARTIN. About 1955.

Mr. DULLES. I just want to get the general area.

Mr. MARTIN. 1955 or 1956. And as a club manager, I was club manager in Dallas also, and didn't associate with him at all, even on a bilateral communication through the clubs. But it was just a nodding acquaintance, you might say. I knew him by his first name. He knew me by my first name and we spoke when we saw each other and I think I have been in his place twice.

Mr. REDLICH. Do you recall the approximate dates of those visits?