Part 29

Mr. SPECTER. When did the fifth occasion take place when you were interviewed by the FBI?

Mr. ROWLAND. This was again where I worked. This was, it was not a formal written statement. They just took notes on what I said, had me recount that entire thing to the best of my knowledge.

Mr. SPECTER. When did this occur, the fifth one?

Mr. ROWLAND. It was on the following Friday.

Mr. SPECTER. About what time of the day or night was it?

Mr. ROWLAND. About 8:30 p.m.

Mr. SPECTER. At the Pizza Inn?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; Dallas time.

Mr. SPECTER. And do you recall the identities of those FBI agents?

Mr. ROWLAND. No; I don't.

Mr. SPECTER. Were they the same as any who had ever interviewed you before?

Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir; none of them are the same.

Mr. SPECTER. When was the sixth occasion when you were interviewed by the FBI?

Mr. ROWLAND. It was again on Sunday.

Mr. SPECTER. This would have been November--it would have been December 1st?

Mr. ROWLAND. I don't remember that date but it was----

Mr. SPECTER. The second Sunday after the assassination?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Where was the sixth interview conducted?

Mr. ROWLAND. This was at the Pizza Inn.

Mr. SPECTER. About what time of the day or night was that?

Mr. ROWLAND. About 1 o'clock. This was again right after I came to work.

Mr. SPECTER. Was the statement taken from you at that time reduced to writing?

Mr. ROWLAND. It was again informal, just taking notes on my statement, had me recount what I had told the other agents.

Mr. SPECTER. What were they interested in specifically at that time if you recall?

Mr. ROWLAND. They just wanted me to recount everything that I could recall.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know the identity of those agents?

Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. SPECTER. Were they again different agents?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; they were.

Mr. SPECTER. From all those you had seen before?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. When had you given the seventh statement to the FBI?

Mr. ROWLAND. The last statement I gave I think it was to one FBI agent and a Secret Service Agent.

Mr. SPECTER. When did that occur?

Mr. ROWLAND. That was either Tuesday or Wednesday of the week. I do not remember which.

Mr. SPECTER. On the week following the Sunday when you gave the sixth statement?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall the identities of those men?

Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. SPECTER. Had you ever seen either before?

Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir; I hadn't.

Mr. SPECTER. Did they reduce your statement to writing?

Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir; they just had me recount everything again.

Mr. SPECTER. In addition to the times you have already stated, have you ever been interviewed by the FBI on any other occasion?

Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever been interviewed by the Secret Service on any other occasion?

Mr. ROWLAND. The afternoon of the 22d and the seventh time was the only two times of the Secret Service.

Mr. SPECTER. There was a Secret Service agent present in the sheriff's office?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; he was Agent Sorrels.

Mr. SPECTER. When you gave the affidavit which we have identified as Commission Exhibit 357?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. In addition to the times you have mentioned, have you ever been interviewed by any agent or representative of the Federal Government?

Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir; I have not.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you been interviewed by any other agent or representative of the State Government of Texas?

Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, on any of the other occasions, other than those you testified about, did you mention seeing the Negro gentleman in the window which we have circled with the "A"?

Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Rowland, what was the quality of your grades in high school?

Mr. ROWLAND. Well, up until my senior year they were 4.0 straight A's, in my senior year I got a couple of B's.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what your IQ or intelligence quotient is?

Mr. ROWLAND. 147.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know when you were tested for that?

Mr. ROWLAND. In 1963; in May.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Rowland, a couple of other questions.

Are you able to give us any other type of a description of the Negro gentleman whom you observed in the window we marked "A" with respect to height, weight, age?

Mr. ROWLAND. He was very thin, an elderly gentleman, bald or practically bald, very thin hair if he wasn't bald. Had on a plaid shirt. I think it was red and green, very bright color, that is why I remember it.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you give us an estimate as to age?

Mr. ROWLAND. Fifty; possibly 55 or 60.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you give us an estimate as to height?

Mr. ROWLAND. 5'8", 5'10", in that neighborhood. He was very slender, very thin.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you give us a more definite description as to complexion?

Mr. ROWLAND. Very dark or fairly dark, not real dark compared to some Negroes, but fairly dark. Seemed like his face was either--I can't recall detail but it was either very wrinkled or marked in some way.

Mr. SPECTER. Shortly after the assassination and before these interviews that you described were completed, Mr. Rowland, had you learned or heard that the shots were supposed to have come out of the window which we have marked with the "A"?

Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir. I did not know that, in fact until Saturday when I read the paper.

Mr. SPECTER. Which Saturday is that?

Mr. ROWLAND. The following Saturday.

Mr. SPECTER. Would that be the second day, the day after the assassination?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, knowing that, at that time, did you attach any particular significance to the presence of the Negro gentleman, whom you have described, that you saw in window "A"?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; that is why I brought it to the attention of the FBI agents who interviewed me that day. This was as an afterthought because I did not think of it firsthand. But I did bring it to their attention before they left, and they----

Mr. SPECTER. That was at the interview on the Saturday morning November 23?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you think it of sufficient significance to bring it to the attention of any of the other interviewing FBI agents on the balance of the interviews you have described?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I did on the following Sunday to the agents who interviewed me where I worked.

Mr. SPECTER. How about the following Sunday?

Mr. ROWLAND. No; I did not.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chief Justice, at this time I move for the admission into evidence of the three exhibits which we have shown this witness.

The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted.

Mr. SPECTER. Exhibits Nos. 356, 357, and 358. That completes our questioning, Your Honor.

(The documents referred to were marked Commission's Exhibits Nos. 356, 357, and 358 for identification and admitted into evidence.)

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Cooper, have you any questions?

Senator COOPER. You said earlier that you had been much interested in and pursued studies in sounds, I believe?

Mr. ROWLAND. I have studied quite a bit of electronics, sound. Math and science is what I like.

Senator COOPER. You said you had read books on this subject. Did you ever conduct any experiments yourself?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; in the form of--there is a theory that sound is a basis of a transmitter and a receiver, that you have to have a receiver to have sound. There is a theory that if a tree falls down in the middle of a forest and there is nobody around where they can hear it, there is no sound.

Well, I have conducted experiments on this, and I--it is very interesting, very fascinating, but you can't prove it or you can't disprove it because if you have got a microphone there you have got a receiver.

Senator COOPER. Did you ever conduct any experiments with rifles, firing a rifle in relation to sound?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; in a firing range.

Senator COOPER. Beg pardon?

Mr. ROWLAND. Firing range.

Senator COOPER. Yes.

Mr. ROWLAND. I did conduct a few experiments. One of them was firing a bullet over water; you know, we were using a set of wood blocks to fire into, so we had a big vat of water that we were firing over, and we had several different articles and composition floating on the water, trying to measure the effect of the sound wave upon that. Such as this we did conduct.

Senator COOPER. I think you did say that when you heard the first report that you considered it to be a rifle shot?

Mr. ROWLAND. I did, but almost immediately everyone started laughing so I did not give it any further consideration until the second shot, second report.

Senator COOPER. At the time you saw a man standing near a window in the Texas School Book Depository with a rifle, can you state whether there were any, did you know whether or not any police officers were near you?

Mr. ROWLAND. There was an officer about 20 feet to my left.

Senator COOPER. Did you see any others?

Mr. ROWLAND. There were officers all over, that was the closest one. There were four or five on the block across the street from me, two of them being with the boy who had the epileptic fit.

There was also an officer in front of the doors to that building. There were several on the corners. I would say there were 20 uniformed officers right there in that 1-1/2-block area.

Senator COOPER. Could any of the officers that you saw whose position you noted, have seen this window from the place where they were standing?

Mr. ROWLAND. They could have; yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. You don't remember whether any of them were looking up there?

Mr. ROWLAND. No; I don't remember whether they were. No; I don't.

Senator COOPER. Did it occur to you that you should speak to the officer about seeing a man in the window?

Mr. ROWLAND. It has. Do you ever have reoccurring dreams, sir?

Senator COOPER. What?

Mr. ROWLAND. Do you ever have reoccurring dreams?

Senator COOPER. Yes.

Mr. ROWLAND. This is a reoccurring dream of mine, sir, all the time, what if I had told someone about it. I knew about it enough in advance and perhaps it could have been prevented. I mean this is something which shakes me up at times.

Senator COOPER. I don't want to disturb you about that but my point was at the time did you--I think you said, though, you thought that he was a--he could have been a--Secret Service man, officer.

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; that is right.

Senator COOPER. That is all.

The CHAIRMAN. Anything further, Congressman Ford?

Representative FORD. Mr. Rowland, have you ever had occasion to go back to the scene and reconstruct it? Have you ever gone back----

The CHAIRMAN. Supposing we take a few minutes recess.

Mr. ROWLAND. The answer to that question is yes; I do all the time. I pass that area very frequently.

The CHAIRMAN. Any other questions, gentlemen, Mr. Wright?

Mr. WRIGHT. No, Your Honor.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well, Mr. Rowland, I want to thank you for coming here and cooperating with the Commission. I know that this is a matter that recalls very sordid thoughts to your mind, and I can see how you would be somewhat distressed about it but you have been very frank and cooperative with us and I appreciate it.

We will take a short recess.

(Short recess.)

TESTIMONY OF JAMES RICHARD WORRELL, JR.

The CHAIRMAN. All right.

Will you raise your right hand and be sworn, please?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Will you be seated, please.

Mr. Worrell, the purpose of today's hearing is to hear the testimony of Arnold Louis Rowland, Amos Lee Evins, yourself, and Robert Jackson, who were in the vicinity of the assassination scene on November 22, 1963. The Commission proposes to ask you and the other witnesses for facts concerning your knowledge of the assassination of the President.

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Specter, will you proceed with the examination.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you state your full name for the record, please?

Mr. WORRELL. James Richard Worrell, Jr.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator, will you preside while I answer a phone call to another member of the Commission?

Mr. SPECTER. What is your address, Mr. Worrell?

Mr. WORRELL. 13510 Winterhaven Drive.

Mr. SPECTER. What city is that?

Mr. WORRELL. In Dallas, it is the Farmers Branch of the suburb of Dallas.

Mr. SPECTER. How long have you resided in Dallas, Tex.?

Mr. WORRELL. About 12 years.

Mr. SPECTER. And where did you live before that?

Mr. WORRELL. 3140 Storey Lane.

Mr. SPECTER. And in what city is Storey Lane located?

Mr. WORRELL. Dallas.

Mr. SPECTER. Where were you born?

Mr. WORRELL. Livermore, Calif.

Mr. SPECTER. And how old are you at the present time?

Mr. WORRELL. Twenty.

Mr. SPECTER. How long did you live in California?

Mr. WORRELL. I am not exactly sure. I was a little bitty old thing and I think it was 2 or 3 years.

Mr. SPECTER. Where did you move from California?

Mr. WORRELL. From California we moved to Abilene, I think.

Mr. SPECTER. Abilene, Tex.?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And have you lived in Texas since that time?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your marital status?

Mr. WORRELL. Sir?

Mr. SPECTER. Are you married or single?

Mr. WORRELL. Single, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you live with your parents?

Mr. WORRELL. My mother and sister.

Mr. SPECTER. And how much schooling have you had?

Mr. WORRELL. Eleven years.

Mr. SPECTER. When did you end your schooling, if you have ended it?

Mr. WORRELL. I ended it October of this year, I quit.

Mr. SPECTER. What school were you going to at that time?

Mr. WORRELL. Thomas Jefferson.

Mr. SPECTER. High school?

Mr. WORRELL. High school; yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Located in Dallas, Tex.?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And were you in the 11th grade or had you completed the 11th grade?

Mr. WORRELL. I was a senior.

Mr. SPECTER. How were your grades in school?

Mr. WORRELL. Average.

(The Chief Justice entered the hearing room at this point.)

Mr. SPECTER. How were you occupied or employed back on November 22, 1963?

Mr. WORRELL. I was in school then. I skipped school to go there.

Mr. SPECTER. You were attending Jefferson High School on that day or were enrolled at that time?

Mr. WORRELL. I was enrolled but I hadn't been going since October.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any special reason for your not going since October?

Mr. WORRELL. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Had you been employed anywhere from the time you stopped going to school?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir. I was employed for El Capitan Oil Drilling out in Kermit, Tex.

Mr. SPECTER. What sort of work were you doing for them?

Mr. WORRELL. I was a floor man on a derrick.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you say floor man?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. On November 22, 1963, were you working on that day for your employer?

Mr. WORRELL. No. I didn't start this oil job until--it was the last of January.

Mr. SPECTER. Of 1964?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And are you working for them at the present time?

Mr. WORRELL. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Whom are you working for now?

Mr. WORRELL. I am not employed now.

Mr. SPECTER. Then going back to November 22, 1963, you had no job at that time?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you attend school that day at all?

Mr. WORRELL. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you outline for us briefly what your activities were from the time you awakened until about noon time on November 22?

Mr. WORRELL. Well, I got up about, well, I got up at my usual time, about 6:30. I was going to go to school that day but I decided to go see the President and my mother left about 7:30, and my sister left about a quarter of 8. I left about 8, and hitchhiked down to Love Field and got there. It took me quite a while to get there, about 9, and just messed around there until the President come in, whatever time that was. And then I didn't get to see him good at all. So, I caught a bus and went over, went downtown and I just, I don't know, happened to pick that place at the Depository, and I stood at the corner of Elm and Houston.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you leave Love Field before the President did?

Mr. WORRELL. Oh, yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Why did you happen to leave Love Field before he left?

Mr. WORRELL. Well, so I could see him better.

Mr. SPECTER. Couldn't you get a good view of him at Love Field?

Mr. WORRELL. No, I just saw him off the plane and I figured that I wasn't going to see him good so I was going to get a better place to see him.

Mr. SPECTER. How did you travel from Love Field down to Elm and Houston?

Mr. WORRELL. Bus. No, no; I just traveled so far on the bus. I went down to Elm, and took a bus from there. I went down as far as, I don't know where that bus stops, anyway I got close to there and I walked the rest of the way.

Mr. SPECTER. What time, to the best of your recollection, did you arrive at the intersection of Elm and Houston?

Mr. WORRELL. Well, about 10, 10:30, 10:45, something around there. There weren't many people standing around there then.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, about how long before the Presidential motorcade came to Elm and Houston did you get there?

Mr. WORRELL. An hour; an hour and a half.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you sure you were at Love Field when the President arrived there?

Mr. WORRELL. Oh, yes.

Mr. SPECTER. All right. Now I am going to show you a photograph which I have marked as Commission Exhibit No. 359. Take a look at that, if you would, please, and tell us whether or not you can identify what scene that is?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, this is Elm, Pacific, and Commerce. This is the Depository right here, and this is Stemmons, and this is the way the President come down.

Mr. SPECTER. So is that the assassination scene itself?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Now take a look at that picture and tell us where you were standing--and I will give you a pencil so you can mark it on that picture itself--at the time the Presidential motorcade came by. Mark it with an "X," if you would, just exactly where you were standing, as best as you can recollect it, at this moment, at the time the President went by.

Mr. WORRELL. Right underneath that window right there.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, how close were you standing to this building which I will ask you to identify; first of all, what building is that?

Mr. WORRELL. That is the Texas Depository.

Mr. SPECTER. All right.

Now how close to that building were you standing?

Mr. WORRELL. I was, I don't know, 4 or 5 feet out from it.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you standing with your face to the building, with your back to the building, or how?

Mr. WORRELL. My back was to the building.

Mr. SPECTER. I show you a photograph which has been identified as Commission Exhibit 360 and I will ask you if you can identify what that building is?

Mr. WORRELL. That is the Depository.

Mr. SPECTER. All right.

Now on this picture will you again, with an "X," mark where you were standing as closely as you can recollect it.

Mr. WORRELL. That car is in the way.

Mr. SPECTER. All right. Put the mark then right above where the car is, indicating where you were standing on the sidewalk near that building.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. Now, did you observe the President's motorcade come by?

Mr. WORRELL. Oh, yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Describe to us what you saw, heard, and observed at that time, as the motorcade came by.

Mr. WORRELL. Well, I saw him--I was standing looking--I don't know my directions very well; anyway, I was looking down towards Elm Street watching him come, and they filed by me----

Mr. SPECTER. On which street were you watching them come?

Mr. WORRELL. This way.

Mr. SPECTER. Look at Exhibit 359 and pick out which street they were on?

Mr. WORRELL. They were coming down this way, so on and so forth.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, now, were they coming down Elm Street or were they coming down Main Street with a right-hand turn on to Houston Street with a curve on Houston down Elm, recollect it if you can?

Mr. WORRELL. That is right. They did turn around.

Mr. SPECTER. Did they come down----

Mr. WORRELL. I didn't see him up there.

Mr. SPECTER. Where was the President's motorcade at the time you first saw it?

Mr. WORRELL. Oh, about right in here.

Mr. SPECTER. Proceeding in this direction, indicating in a generally northerly direction on Houston Street, right?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, north.

Mr. SPECTER. Then tell us what the President's motorcade did?

Mr. WORRELL. It turned and went down this way.

Mr. SPECTER. Made a left-hand or right-hand turn?

Mr. WORRELL. Left-hand turn.

Mr. SPECTER. Did it pass right by in front of where you were standing?

Mr. WORRELL. Within a hundred feet, I guess.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to get a pretty good view of the President's motorcade?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. All right; go ahead and tell us.

Mr. WORRELL. Didn't get too good a view of the President either, I missed out on there too. But as they went by, they got, oh at least another 50, 75 feet on past me, and then I heard the shots.

Mr. SPECTER. How many shots did you hear?

Mr. WORRELL. Four.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe anything at about that time?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir, I looked up and saw the rifle, but I would say about 6 inches of it.

Mr. SPECTER. And where did you see the rifle?

Mr. WORRELL. I am not going--I am not too sure but I told the FBI it was either in the fifth or the sixth floor on the far corner, on the east side.

Mr. SPECTER. Now looking at the picture which we have identified as Commission Exhibit No. 360, which is where you have drawn an "X," can you indicate the line of vision which you followed to the point where the rifle was to the best of your ability to recollect?

Mr. WORRELL. Well, when I heard the first shot it was too loud to be a firecracker, I knew that, because there was quite a big boom, and I don't know, just out of nowhere, I looked up like that, just straight up.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating you looked straight back over your head, raising your head to look over your body at the 90 degree angle?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes; and I saw it for the second time and I looked back to the motorcade.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe at that time?

Mr. WORRELL. I saw about 6 inches of the gun, the rifle. It had--well it had a regular long barrel but it had a long stock and you could only see maybe 4 inches of the barrel, and I could see----

Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to observe any of the stock?

Mr. WORRELL. Oh, yes.

Mr. SPECTER. How much of the stock were you able to observe?

Mr. WORRELL. Just very little, just about 2 inches.

Mr. SPECTER. How many inches of the barrel then could you observe protruding beyond the stock?

Mr. WORRELL. About 4 inches, I would say, not very much.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, at the time of the second shot were you able to observe anything at that precise instant?

Mr. WORRELL. You mean as to firing it.

Mr. SPECTER. As to anything at all. What did you see when the second shot went off?

Mr. WORRELL. Well, I looked to see where he was aiming and after the second shot and I have seen the President slumping down in the seat, and----

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see the President slump in his seat after the second shot?

Mr. WORRELL. Uh, huh. And about that----

Mr. SPECTER. Did you look up and see the rifle between the first and the second shots?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir. And saw the firing on the second and then before he could get a shot I was--I took in everything but especially the car, the President's car, and saw him slumping, and I looked up again and turned around and started running and saw it fire a third time, and then----

Mr. SPECTER. When did you see it fire a third time, when you looked up, the time you just described?

Mr. WORRELL. When I was, I did it all in one motion, I looked up, turned around and ran, pivoted.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you hear, if anything, after that?

Mr. WORRELL. Just a lot of commotion, everybody was screaming and saying "duck."

Mr. SPECTER. After the third shot, did you hear a fourth shot?