Part 28

Mr. ROWLAND. He teaches at Crozier Tech, Downtown Technical High School.

Mr. SPECTER. Is he still there?

Mr. ROWLAND. To my knowledge.

Mr. SPECTER. How recently did you have a course with him?

Mr. ROWLAND. Last year, last school year.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you describe the second sound by comparison with the first sound which you have described as being similar to a backfire?

Mr. ROWLAND. The second to my recollection was identical or as closely as could be.

Mr. SPECTER. How about the third shot?

Mr. ROWLAND. The same.

Mr. SPECTER. Sounded the same to you?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any impression or reaction as to the point of origin when you heard the first noise?

Mr. ROWLAND. Well, I began looking, I didn't look at the building mainly, and as practically any of the police officers that were there then will tell you, the echo effect was such that it sounded like it came from the railroad yards. That is where I looked, that is where all the policemen, everyone, converged on the railroads.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say railroad yards, what area are you referring to? Identify it on Commission Exhibit No. 354, for example?

Mr. ROWLAND. In this area in here.

Now most of the officers converged on this area----

Mr. SPECTER. When you say "in here," I will get a black pencil here and see if we can draw a circle around the area where you have described the echo effect?

Mr. ROWLAND. The echo effect felt as though it came from this general vicinity.

Mr. SPECTER. Mark that with the letter "C" in the center of your circle.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. Now, as to the second shot, did you have any impression as to the point of origin or source?

Mr. ROWLAND. The same point or very close to it.

Mr. SPECTER. And how about the third shot?

Mr. ROWLAND. Very close to the same position.

Mr. SPECTER. Where did you look, if you recall, after you heard the first shot, in what direction?

Mr. ROWLAND. We were standing here at position "B." At the sound of the second report, I proceeded across the street. My wife was very anxious to find out what was going on. I proceeded to cross the street like this.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating you were--she was pulling you ahead?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. She was very anxious to find out what was going on.

Mr. SPECTER. That was at the sound of the second report?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes, it was.

Mr. SPECTER. And will you mark with this black pencil, with the letter "D," where you went to, as she pulled you across the street?

Mr. ROWLAND. We crossed the street in this area, proceeded down the sidewalk, around here, there was quite a bit of crowd, people were running.

Mr. SPECTER. Where were you at the time that you heard the second report?

Mr. ROWLAND. At the second report we were approximately at the curb, out from the curb, we were off the sidewalk.

Mr. SPECTER. At point "V"?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. How about the third shot, where were you then?

Mr. ROWLAND. At the third shot I was in this vicinity halfway to where we crossed the street to the end of the block.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you indicate with the letter "D" where you were at the time of the third shot?

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. Where did you look when you heard the third report?

Mr. ROWLAND. Well, we were trying to actually see the President's car, that is what my wife was trying to do, and then I decided I might as well give in to her.

Mr. SPECTER. After the shots occurred, did you ever look back at the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. ROWLAND. No; I did not. In fact, I went over toward the scene of the railroad yards myself.

Mr. SPECTER. Why did you not look back at the Texas School Book Depository Building in view of the fact that you had seen a man with a rifle up there earlier in the day?

Mr. ROWLAND. I don't remember. It was mostly due to the confusion, and then the fact that it sounded like it came from this area "C," and that all the officers, enforcement officers, were converging on that area, and I just didn't pay any attention to it at that time.

Mr. SPECTER. How many officers were converging on that area, to the best of your ability to recollect and estimate?

Mr. ROWLAND. I think it would be a very good estimation of 50, maybe more.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know how fast the President's automobile was driving as it proceeded in front of you when you were standing at position "B"?

Mr. ROWLAND. Very slow pace, 5, 10 miles an hour.

Mr. SPECTER. When, if at all, did you first report what you had observed in the Texas School Book Depository Building about the man with the rifle to anyone in an official position?

Mr. ROWLAND. That was approximately 15 minutes after the third report that I went to an officer, he was a plainclothesman who was there combing the area, close to position "C," looking for footprints and such as this, some lady said someone jumped off one of the colonnades and started running, there was an officer looking in this area for footprints and such as this.

Mr. SPECTER. Was that lady ever identified to you?

Mr. ROWLAND. No; I do not remember his name. He introduced himself and showed me his ID.

Mr. SPECTER. I mean the lady you talked about.

Mr. ROWLAND. No; I don't.

Mr. SPECTER. Now as to the officer to whom you made a report, was he a State, City or Federal official, if you know?

Mr. ROWLAND. It was a Dallas detective.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you give him a statement or what procedure did he follow?

Mr. ROWLAND. It happened such as this: He was looking in this area for footprints or any visible marks. I started looking around also. I found a fountain pen that someone had probably dropped during the confusion or fell out of their pocket when they fell on the ground or such. I picked it up and handed it to him. I had on gloves, I wasn't to mess up the fingerprints because it very possibly could have fallen out of the pocket of the man who supposedly had jumped down.

Mr. SPECTER. You were wearing gloves on that day?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Was it a chilly day?

Mr. ROWLAND. The sun was shining, it was a fair day but the wind was blowing and it was breezy.

Mr. SPECTER. Was it cold enough to have gloves?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I had on my overcoat and my wife had a fairly heavy coat.

Mr. SPECTER. Proceed, and tell us what you did.

Mr. ROWLAND. I handed this pen to the officer and I started thinking and I went to him and told him again just before the motorcade came I saw a man in the building with a rifle, and he immediately took me to Sheriff Decker which, in turn, asked two other deputies to take me to his office. We went there to his office. There was quite a few reporters around, such as this. They took my wife and I to a back room and shut us off completely from the reporters and everyone. There was no one in that room for 4 hours but this sheriff and a FBI agent, Agent Sorrels, and a stenographer, and I think another lady and a man that had seen another man carrying a rifle in a case on the other end of town earlier prior to this time.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you sure there was a court reporter present?

Mr. ROWLAND. It was one of the secretaries from the office of the sheriff, stenographer who was taking, using an electric typewriter every time.

Mr. SPECTER. Was she taking down in shorthand----

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. As you could observe----

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Each word that you were saying?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Did she have any sort of a machine, such as a stenograph, as the gentleman who is serving as court reporter has?

Mr. ROWLAND. No; she took it down in shorthand and retyped it on an electric typewriter that she brought into the room.

Mr. SPECTER. Did she type up what you had said?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; typed up three or four copies and then I signed it at that time.

Mr. SPECTER. I now show you a photostatic copy of what purports to be an affidavit which you gave to the Sheriff's Department of the County of Dallas, Tex., on November 22, 1963, and has been marked as Commission Exhibit No. 357. Would you take a look at that, take your time, of course, and tell us whether or not that is the affidavit which you took on the occasion which you have just related?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. In fact, at this time I also noted that my wife dragged me across the street.

Mr. SPECTER. Just one detail on that statement: There is a reference here to the man holding the rifle being in a position which you describe as "a parade-rest sort of position." That appears----

Mr. ROWLAND. It does appear in there?

Mr. SPECTER. Eighteen lines down.

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I see it. It wasn't a parade-rest position. It was a port-arms position. I never noticed that in there before. There were--actually, I will say this, I said what I had to say. The FBI agent reworded it, and she took it down.

Now this happened; it wasn't my words verbatim, it was reworded.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever use the words "parade-rest" position?

Mr. ROWLAND. Not to my recollection.

Mr. SPECTER. So it is just an error in transcription which you did not notice when you signed it.

(At this point, Chief Justice Warren entered the hearing room.)

Is there any other aspect of the affidavit which you gave, which you have just observed, which is at variance with your current recollection of what you saw and heard on that date?

Mr. ROWLAND. Here it states we were at the west entrance of the sheriff's office, that is just a general approximation, we were 25 feet from there, in fact.

Mr. SPECTER. Are there any other portions of it which vary from your current recollection?

Mr. ROWLAND. I don't remember saying definitely that he was back about 15 feet. In fact, I think I said, as I said now, 3 to 5 feet, because from my point of view if he was back 15 feet I couldn't have even seen him.

Mr. SPECTER. Are there any other parts of the affidavit which vary from your current recollection?

Mr. ROWLAND. The actual time between the reports I would say now, after having had time to consider the 6 seconds between the first and second report and two between the second and third. It is very fast for a bolt-loading rifle.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall whether or not the statement is accurate in that you told the police officials at that time that there was a time span of 8 seconds between the first and second shots and a time span of 3 seconds between the second and third shots?

Mr. ROWLAND. I think I did tell them that, yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And with respect to the facts which appear in the statement that you said the man was standing about 15 feet back from the windows, did you actually tell them that when you made the statement, or is that an error of transcription?

Mr. ROWLAND. I don't think I said that.

Mr. SPECTER. Now are there any other points where the affidavit is at variance from your current recollection?

Mr. ROWLAND. The time that it states here, we arrived in downtown Dallas at approximately 12:10. Actually we arrived before 12 but we took the position that we have, approximately 12:10, that position "V" on this other Exhibit 354.

Mr. SPECTER. Are there any other variances between your current recollection and this statement?

Mr. ROWLAND. I do not think so.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you tell the police officials at the time you made this statement that there was a Negro gentleman in the window on the southwest corner of the Texas School Book Depository Building which you have marked with a circle "A"--pardon me, southeast?

Mr. ROWLAND. At that time, no. However, the next day on Saturday there were a pair of FBI officers, agents out at my home, and they took another handwritten statement from me which I signed again, and this was basically the same. At that time I told them I did see the Negro man there and they told me it didn't have any bearing or such on the case right then. In fact, they just the same as told me to forget it now.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Reporter, will you please repeat that last answer for us?

(Answer read.)

Mr. SPECTER. I am now handing you a document which I have marked as Commission Exhibit No. 358, which purports to be a reproduction of a statement which was purportedly given by you to the FBI, two agents of that Bureau.

Will you take a look at that and tell us if that is the statement which you gave to the FBI to which you just referred?

Mr. ROWLAND. Again, I have a variance of time and a variance of distance that he was from the window.

Mr. SPECTER. Before you direct your attention to those factors, Mr. Rowland, are you able to tell us whether or not this is the statement which you gave to the FBI?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. My wife was with me when I gave the statement.

Mr. SPECTER. And without looking at the statement which, may the record show, you are not now doing, do you recollect the names of the FBI, don't look there, just tell me if you can recollect without seeing their names on the statement?

Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir; I talked to seven different pairs of FBI agents and I don't remember their names.

Mr. SPECTER. Seven different pairs?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes, sir; I had--this is only one of the statements. They came to my home or where I worked and took three more besides this one. There were four handwritten statements that I signed.

Mr. SPECTER. Before getting the details on those, tell me in what respect, if any, the statement which we have identified as Commission Exhibit No. 358 differs from what you told the FBI agents at that time?

Mr. ROWLAND. I do not think it differs.

Mr. SPECTER. Then that statement accurately reflects what you said at that time?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I am sure it does.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, in what respects, if any, does that statement vary from your current recollection about the facts which are contained therein?

Mr. ROWLAND. The time factor, the time that we arrived in town. Here again it states 12:10. Now this is the time that we arrived at the position that we stayed at, not the time we arrived in town, and the distance the man was back from the window. Here it states 12 to 15 feet. I do not remember saying that although I very well could have. Everything was confusing.

Mr. SPECTER. But what is your current recollection on the distance that the man was back from the window?

Mr. ROWLAND. Three to four, five feet, somewhere in that neighborhood. He wasn't very far. Far enough for the sunlight to hit him and at the angle the sun was that wouldn't be very far.

Mr. SPECTER. Now noticing that the date on that statement is November 24, 1963, does that appear to you to be the date when that statement was taken, or was it taken on the 23d, the day after the assassination?

Mr. ROWLAND. It was Saturday morning, the 24th.

Mr. SPECTER. On what day was the assassination?

Mr. ROWLAND. It was Thursday, wasn't it?

Mr. SPECTER. No; the assassination occurred on Friday.

Mr. ROWLAND. I am sorry, that is right. It is so confused in this.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, was the statement taken the second day after the assassination or the morning of the first day after the assassination?

Mr. ROWLAND. No; it was taken on Saturday morning before I went to work because on Sunday there was another statement taken from me at my job where I was working. This occurred right after Oswald was shot himself.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, are you able to identify that statement which we have marked Exhibit 358, as the statement taken on Saturday, the 23d, as distinguished from the statement taken on Sunday, the 24th of November?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. How can you be certain of that, Mr. Rowland?

Mr. ROWLAND. The one on Sunday, this particular one, I do remember the agent used a legal pad. He did have three pages of it handwritten. I made corrections on this in different parts of it. The one on Sunday was not a legal pad. It was a steno pad and it, in fact, covered a page and a half, I think, and it was concerned with mainly could I identify the man that I saw, his description.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, at the time you made the Saturday statement, which you say was transcribed and appears as Exhibit 358, did you at that time tell the interviewing FBI agents about the colored gentleman who you testified was in the window which you marked with an "A"?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I did.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you ask them at that time to include the information in the statement which they took from you?

Mr. ROWLAND. No. I think I told them about it after the statement, as an afterthought, an afterthought came up, it came into my mind. I also told the agents that took a statement from me on Sunday. They didn't seem very interested, so I just forgot about it for a while.

Mr. SPECTER. Was that information included in the written portion of the statement which was taken from you on Sunday?

Mr. ROWLAND. No, it wasn't. It shouldn't but the agent deleted it though himself, I mean I included it in what I gave.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say deleted it, did he strike it out after putting it in, or did he omit it in the transcription?

Mr. ROWLAND. Omitted it.

Senator COOPER. I think you said a while ago that when you told the FBI agents on Saturday that you had seen this Negro man in the window, that they indicated to you that they weren't interested in it at all. What did they say which gave you that impression?

Mr. ROWLAND. I don't remember exactly what was said. The context was again the agents were trying to find out if I could positively identify the man that I saw. They were concerned mainly with this, and I brought up to them about the Negro man after I had signed the statement, and at that time he just told me that they were just trying to find out about or if anyone could identify the man who was up there. They just didn't seem interested at all. They didn't pursue the point. They didn't take it down in the notation as such.

Mr. SPECTER. It was more of the fact that they didn't pursue it, didn't include it?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Or that they said something which led you to believe they were not interested?

Mr. ROWLAND. It was just the fact they didn't pursue it. I mean, I just mentioned that I saw him in that window. They didn't ask me, you know, if was this at the same time or such. They just didn't seem very interested in that at all.

Mr. WRIGHT. By man who was up there you mean man with the rifle?

Mr. ROWLAND. They were interested in the man with the rifle, and finding out if anyone could identify him. The other man was the colored man in the other window.

Representative FORD. A minute ago you indicated that you could see the man in the window with the rifle because of the light conditions, I think you referred to the sun shining in that direction toward the building. Was the sun bright, do you recall that at all?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; the sun was out, somewhat bright. I didn't have any sunglasses on at that time because I had broken them the week before, and I hadn't gotten any new ones. The sun was shining in from what I could tell he was standing where I seen him through the window on my right. This would be the east window of the pair. It appeared as though the sun were shining in through either a window on the other side of the building, on the west side of the building, or possibly the western pair, one of the pair. This sun was--that hit him about from the shoulders down as far as I could see, that is why I was able to tell the rifle was of the type or such that it was.

Representative FORD. As you faced the window, as you faced the building, the sun was shining over which shoulder, to your left or your right shoulder?

Mr. ROWLAND. As I faced the building the sun was shining--well, I would have been facing the building if the building were in this direction more or less this way and the sun would have been shining from this area.

Representative FORD. Over your left shoulder?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; forward.

Representative FORD. That is all.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to identify the man whom you saw in the window with the rifle for the FBI agents?

Mr. ROWLAND. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Did they have pictures with them at that time?

Mr. ROWLAND. I have seen three pictures of Lee Harvey Oswald, two of them in the paper. They had a morning newspaper was all they had. It wasn't a very good picture, and I couldn't tell. I didn't know, I wasn't going to say because I didn't, I mean. I just couldn't identify him. I wouldn't be--I had already resigned myself not to be given that task, because I couldn't definitely say any one man was that man.

Mr. SPECTER. And what was the basis of your concluding, as you put it, that you resigned yourself to that task?

Mr. ROWLAND. This was because I just didn't have a good enough look at his face.

Mr. SPECTER. Was that your conclusion at this moment that you are unable to identify, with precision and certainty, the man whom you saw holding the rifle in the window of the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; that is true.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you believe that you could identify the Negro gentleman in window "A" whom you testified you saw?

Mr. ROWLAND. I would have to say perhaps. I can't say for sure.

Mr. SPECTER. A moment ago you testified that you gave statements to seven different pairs of FBI agents. Have you already testified about three of those occasions, or, stated differently, start at the beginning and tell us, as best you can recollect, what were those occasions, when they occurred, where you were when you had those meetings with the seven different pairs of agents.

Mr. ROWLAND. The first statement I gave was in the sheriff's office on that date.

Mr. SPECTER. Were there two FBI agents present?

Mr. ROWLAND. I think there were.

Mr. SPECTER. And do you recollect their names?

Mr. ROWLAND. No, I do not.

Mr. SPECTER. When was the second occasion?

Mr. ROWLAND. The Saturday morning.

Mr. SPECTER. Where was that statement given?

Mr. ROWLAND. That was in the agent's car in front of my mother-in-law's house.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recollect the identities of those FBI agents?

Mr. ROWLAND. No, I do not.

Mr. SPECTER. That is the statement you have identified as being reproduced in Commission Exhibit 358?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, when was the third statement obtained?

Mr. ROWLAND. It was Sunday morning, the following day, November 25.

Mr. SPECTER. Where was that statement obtained?

Mr. ROWLAND. This was at my place of employment at the Pizza Inn.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, Sunday after the assassination would have been the 24th.

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; that is right, I am sorry, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you certain of the day of the week, however?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I am certain of that because I went to work at noon on Sunday and they were there when I got to work, they were waiting on me.

Mr. SPECTER. That is the statement which you described as having been taken on a stenopad?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you sign that statement?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I did. This was in the presence of my wife because she was there.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recollect the identity of those FBI agents?

Mr. ROWLAND. No; I do not, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. When was the fourth statement taken?

Mr. ROWLAND. The fourth was Tuesday night of that week.

Mr. SPECTER. Of the following week?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Where was that statement taken?

Mr. ROWLAND. This was at my mother-in-law's house, and----

Mr. SPECTER. Was that reduced to writing?

Mr. ROWLAND. That was merely one paragraph. They were concerned with identification of the man that I saw.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you tell them essentially at that time?

Mr. ROWLAND. The description and that I could not positively identify him.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you sign a statement for them at that time?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I did.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know the identity of those FBI agents?

Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. SPECTER. Up to this point were any of the FBI agents the same who had interviewed you and taken statements from you?

Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. All different?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.