Part 27

Mr. SPECTER. Based on your knowledge of her eyesight, would it have been possible for her to have seen him considering your relative positions?

Mr. ROWLAND. Had he still been there she would have been able to acknowledge the figure with no description.

Mr. SPECTER. How long did you see him there in total point of time?

Mr. ROWLAND. It was all relatively brief, short time, 15 seconds, maybe 20. I was looking at the building, looking at the people hanging out of the building, I noticed him, my eye contact was at that position for 15 to 20 seconds. This is all relatively very short length of time.

Mr. SPECTER. Now----

Mr. ROWLAND. But a lot can happen in that much time.

Mr. SPECTER. When you saw him, you told her about him, and then did she look in the direction of the man?

Mr. ROWLAND. After she pointed something else out to me she looked in that direction.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you then look back toward the direction of, to the window where you had seen him?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I even pointed to it with my wife.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you look back at the same time she looked back?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And when you looked back what, if anything, did you observe in the window?

Mr. ROWLAND. There was nothing there then.

Mr. SPECTER. Following that did you and she have any additional conversation about this man in the window?

Mr. ROWLAND. We talked about it momentarily, just for a few seconds that it was of most likelihood a security man, had a very good vantage point where he could watch the crowds, talked about the rifle, it looked like a very high-powered rifle.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you mention that to your wife?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I did.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you described as fully as you can everything you discussed with your wife at that juncture?

Mr. ROWLAND. I think so.

Representative FORD. Was there anybody else standing close to you as you had this conversation with your wife?

Mr. ROWLAND. There was a policeman about as far as me to the flag.

Representative FORD. That is about how many feet, would you say?

Mr. ROWLAND. Twelve, thirteen feet.

Representative FORD. There was no one between you and the policeman in that line of vision?

Mr. ROWLAND. No.

Then there were three or four colored men just behind the elevator, and a couple on the elevator that had come up through the sidewalk. This was a distance of--this was on the opposite side of us about 15 feet, just a little further than the officer.

Representative FORD. There was no one closer to you and your wife than 10 to 15 feet?

Mr. ROWLAND. That is correct. That is one of the main reasons we selected that spot.

Representative FORD. Did it ever enter your mind that you should go and tell the policeman of this sight or this vision that you had seen?

Mr. ROWLAND. Really it didn't.

Representative FORD. It never entered your mind?

Mr. ROWLAND. I never dreamed of anything such as that. I mean, I must honestly say my opinion was based on movies I have seen, on the attempted assassination of Theodore Roosevelt where they had Secret Service men up in the building such as that with rifles watching the crowds, and another one concerned with attempted assassination of the other one, Franklin Roosevelt, and both of these had Secret Service men up in windows or on top of buildings with rifles, and this is how my opinion was based and why it didn't alarm me.

Perhaps if I had been older and had more experience in life it might have made a difference. It very well could have.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Rowland, did the man with the rifle have any distinctive facial appearance such as a mustache or a prominent scar, anything of that sort which you could observe?

Mr. ROWLAND. There was nothing dark on his face, no mustache. There could have been a scar if it hadn't been a dark scar. If it was, you know, a blotch or such as this, there was nothing very dark about the color of his face.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Rowland, will you recount as precisely and as specifically as you can, the exact conversation between you and your wife from the time you first noticed this man until your conversation about the man concluded, indicating what you said and what she said in language as closely as you can recollect it?

Mr. ROWLAND. That is a whopper.

I am almost sure I told her or asked her, did she want to see a Secret Service agent. She said, "Where," and I said, "In the building there," and at that time she told me to look--I remember what she was looking at. Right directly across from us in this plaza in front of the pond there was a colored boy that had an epileptic fit or something of this type right then, and she pointed this out to me and there were a couple of officers there and a few moments later they called an ambulance, this is what she told me to look at then, and we looked at this for a short period of time, and then I told her to look in the building, the second floor from the top and on that end, the two open windows, is I think what I said, and I said, "He is not there now."

I think that is what I said. She said, "What did he look like," and I told her just that--I gave her more or less a brief description of what he looked like, open collared shirt, light-colored shirt, and he had a rifle, I described the rifle in as much detail as I have to you to her.

Mr. SPECTER. You described the rifle to her in as much detail as you have to us?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

And then she said something about wishing she could have seen him but he was probably somewhere else in another part of the building watching people now. Then we were discussing again, just preceding that we were discussing the event with Mr. Stevenson, this was about 2 weeks beforehand, this was fresh on our mind, and right after that we started discussing that it was a security man.

We were looking around, we became very security conscious. We noted that policemen, I think there were maybe 2, maybe 3 on the viaduct itself; some 20 or 30, I would say 20 to 25 policemen being in that immediate area.

Representative FORD. About what time, as you can best recollect, did this conversation with your wife take place?

Mr. ROWLAND. About 5 minutes until about 22 after. I think I again looked at my watch.

Representative FORD. After you and your wife looked up and saw that there was no one in the window, did you ever again look at the window?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I did, constantly.

Representative FORD. And as you looked at the window subsequently did you ever see anything else in the window?

Mr. ROWLAND. No; not in that window, and I looked back every few seconds, 30 seconds, maybe twice a minute, occasionally trying to find him so I could point him out to my wife.

Something I would like to note is that the window that I have been told the shots were actually fired from, I did not see that, there was someone hanging out that window at that time.

Representative FORD. At what time was that?

Mr. ROWLAND. At the time I saw the man in the other window, I saw this man hanging out the window first. It was a colored man, I think.

Representative FORD. Is this the same window where you saw the man standing with the rifle?

Mr. ROWLAND. No; this was the one on the east end of the building, the one that they said the shots were fired from.

Representative FORD. I am not clear on this now. The window that you saw the man that you describe was on what end of the building?

Mr. ROWLAND. The west, southwest corner.

Representative FORD. And the man you saw hanging out from the window was at what corner?

Mr. ROWLAND. The east, southeast corner.

Representative FORD. Southeast corner. On the same floor?

Mr. ROWLAND. On the same floor.

Representative FORD. When did you notice him?

Mr. ROWLAND. This was before I noticed the other man with the rifle.

Representative FORD. I see. This was before you saw the man in the window with the rifle?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. My wife and I were both looking and making remarks that the people were hanging out the windows. I think the majority of them were colored people, some of them were hanging out the windows to their waist, such as this. We made several remarks to this fact, and then she started watching the colored boy, and I continued to look, and then I saw the man with the rifle.

Representative FORD. After 12:22 or thereabouts you indicated you periodically looked back at the window in the southwest corner where you had seen the man with the rifle. What happened as the motorcade came along?

Mr. ROWLAND. As the motorcade came along, there was quite a bit of excitement. I didn't look back from then. I was very interested in trying to see the President myself. I had seen him twice before but I was interested in seeing him again.

Representative FORD. Did you notice a sedan come by with any officials in it at the outset of the motorcade?

Mr. ROWLAND. The first car in the motorcade was, I think it was, a white or cream-colored Ford. This appeared to be full of detectives or such as this; rather husky men, large men.

I think there were four in this car.

Representative FORD. Was this an open or a closed car?

Mr. ROWLAND. This was a sedan, the doors were closed.

Representative FORD. What was the next car you noticed?

Mr. ROWLAND. The next car was the President's car.

Representative FORD. Did you notice again or did you look again during this period of time at the School Depository Building?

Mr. ROWLAND. No. From where we were standing the motorcade came down Main, and when it turned on Houston we watched the motorcade, my wife remarked at Jackie's clothing, Mrs. Kennedy, and we made a few remarks of her clothing and how she looked, her appearance in general, and we also discussed--we didn't immediately recognize Governor Connally and his wife being in the car, we were trying to figure out who that was.

Then the motorcade turned on Elm and was obscured from our vision by a crowd, and we were discussing the clothing of Mrs. Kennedy at that time. My wife likes clothes.

Representative FORD. You never again, after the motorcade once came into your view, looked back at the School Depository Building?

Mr. ROWLAND. I did after the shots were fired.

Mr. SPECTER. Had you finished telling us all about the conversation between you and your wife concerning this man?

Mr. ROWLAND. To the best of my recollection, yes.

Mr. SPECTER. All right.

You have described seeing someone in another window hanging out. Would you draw a circle and put an "A" beside the window where you say you saw someone hanging out. That is on Exhibit No. 356.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. At about what time was it that you observed someone hanging out of the window that you have marked as window "A"?

Mr. ROWLAND. Again about 12:15 just before I noticed the other man.

Mr. SPECTER. You have marked the double window there. Would you draw the arrow in the red pencil indicating specifically which window it was.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe with as much particularity as you can what that man looked like?

Mr. ROWLAND. It seemed to me an elderly Negro, that is about all. I didn't pay very much attention to him.

Mr. SPECTER. At or about that time did you observe anyone else hanging out any window or observe any one through any window on the same floor where you have drawn the two circles on Exhibit 356?

Mr. ROWLAND. No; no one else on that floor.

Mr. SPECTER. You testified before that there were other windows where you had seen people hanging out, is that correct?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you tell us and indicate on the picture, Exhibit 356, to the best of your ability to recollect just which those windows were?

Mr. ROWLAND. There was either two or three people in this window.

Mr. SPECTER. Mark that with a "B" if you would, please.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. ROWLAND. Those pair of windows. I think this was all on that floor.

Here on this floor.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the second floor?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Circle the windows and mark it with a "C" if you will.

Mr. ROWLAND. I think it was this pair immediately over the door, and this pair.

Mr. SPECTER. Mark one "C" and one "D," if you will.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. ROWLAND. Here I know there were two Negro women, I think.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating window "C." You say two Negro women?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And were those women each in one window, both in one window or what?

Mr. ROWLAND. They were one in each window. Then at the window "D" there was one, one window open.

Mr. SPECTER. Which was that, indicate that by an arrow, if you please.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. ROWLAND. The one on the west side, and this appeared to have two heads just inside the window, no one hanging out the window as with the others.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe anyone else hanging out the window?

Mr. ROWLAND. There was someone on the third floor. I think it was--wait a minute--yes, the third floor had three adjoining sets of windows that were open. They were all open to the fullest extent they would open.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you mark those "E," "F" and "G," please.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any people in those windows marked "E," "F," and "G"?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes, and this pair, "E," both windows were open, and there appeared to be one man in the eastern window.

Mr. SPECTER. Which you have now marked with an arrow.

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. How about as to window marked "F"?

Mr. ROWLAND. Both windows were completely up, and there appeared to be several people in that window, four or five, a number that I don't remember, you know I couldn't see all of them.

Mr. SPECTER. How about window "G"?

Mr. ROWLAND. This again, both windows were open all of the way and I think there was one person in each window.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any other people either through any other window or hanging out of any other window in the building?

Mr. ROWLAND. There was no one in the fourth floor to my knowledge, to my recollection.

There were what appeared to be secretaries, several young white girls or ladies, standing on the steps of the building in this general area.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the door of the building.

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Yes.

Mr. ROWLAND. And there was no one else in there, except I think there was a policeman in front of the door on the sidewalk.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you described everybody you have observed, with respect to everybody hanging out the windows?

Mr. ROWLAND. To the best of my recollection.

Mr. SPECTER. Or anybody you could see through the windows?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. As to the window which you have marked "A", that double pair of windows, which, if either or both, was open?

Mr. ROWLAND. The one on the eastern side was open and not all of the way it would open.

Mr. SPECTER. Is that the one you have marked with an arrow?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. How much of that window was open?

Mr. ROWLAND. It was open about that far.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating 2-1/2 feet?

Mr. ROWLAND. Two feet.

Mr. SPECTER. Two feet.

Mr. ROWLAND. Indicating 2 feet. It looked like the windows might open 3--two-thirds or three-fourths of the distance.

Mr. SPECTER. How about the other of the windows in the double-set marked "A," was that completely closed?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. How about the windows in the group marked "B," was either of those windows open?

Mr. ROWLAND. They were both completely open.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you describe with any more particularity the people you saw in the window which you have marked "B"?

Mr. ROWLAND. There was a white man hanging out either "G" or "B," I do not remember which. He was the only white man, besides the man in these windows that I saw----

Mr. SPECTER. When you said "these windows" you mean the first window you marked with a black circle and a black arrow?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Is there anything else you can tell us about the people you saw in window "B"?

Mr. ROWLAND. I think to the best of my recollection there was either two or three people in window "B," and as I stated before, either "B" or "G" had a white man in the window. I do not remember which. I do remember it was one of the windows on the corner.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recollect if the other people in window "B" were white or Negro?

Mr. ROWLAND. They were Negro.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, did you have any occasion to look back at window "A" from the time you saw the man whom you described as a Negro gentleman in that window until the President's procession passed by?

Mr. ROWLAND. Well, up until the time the procession was----

(Short recess.)

Representative FORD. I suggest, Mr. Specter, we resume the hearing.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you read the last question, Mr. Reporter, please.

(Question read.)

Mr. SPECTER. Would you like to start the question again or would you like the question repeated?

Mr. ROWLAND. I understand the question.

Let me see, the exact time I do not remember, but the man, the colored man, was in that window until the procession reached Commerce--I mean Main, and Ervay. I was looking back quite often, as I stated.

Mr. SPECTER. How do you fix the time that he was there until the procession reached the intersection of Commerce and Ervay?

Mr. ROWLAND. The police motorcycle was almost in front of me with the speaker on very loud, giving the relative position about every 15 or 20 seconds of the motorcade, and this is how I was able to note that.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you observing the window which you marked "A" at the time he departed?

Mr. ROWLAND. No, I didn't. I just know, I was looking at the crowd around, and then I glanced back up again, and neither did I see the man with the rifle nor did I see him. The colored man went away.

Mr. SPECTER. How long was that after you first noticed the colored man in the window "A"?

Mr. ROWLAND. Fifteen minutes.

Mr. SPECTER. Had you looked back at window "A" at any time during that 15 minute interval?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Had you seen anybody in window "A" during that time?

Mr. ROWLAND. The colored man was that----

Mr. SPECTER. So how many times did you notice him altogether?

Mr. ROWLAND. Several. I think I looked back about two, maybe three times a minute, an average. I was, you know, trying to find the man with the rifle to point him out to my wife. I noticed the colored man in that window. I looked at practically every window in the building but I didn't look at anything with the detail to see what I was looking for.

Mr. SPECTER. Over how long a time span did you observe the Negro man to be in the window marked "A"?

Mr. ROWLAND. He was there before I noticed the man with the rifle and approximately 12:30 or when the motorcade was at Main and Ervay he was gone when I looked back and I had looked up there about 30 seconds before or a minute before.

Mr. SPECTER. How long after you heard the motorcade was at Main and Ervay did the motorcade pass by where you were?

Mr. ROWLAND. Another 5 minutes.

Mr. SPECTER. So that you observed this colored man on the window you have marked "A" within 5 minutes prior to the time the motorcade passed in front of you?

Mr. ROWLAND. Approximately 5 minutes prior to the time the motorcade came, he wasn't there. About 30 seconds or a minute prior to that time he was there.

Mr. SPECTER. A few moments ago in your testimony you stated that in observing policemen in the area you had observed some officers on the overpass?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Approximately how far were you from the overpass at that time?

Mr. ROWLAND. 125 yards approximately.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to observe with clarity the individuals who were standing on the overpass?

Mr. ROWLAND. Not with detailed distinction. I do remember there were three women there, two or three men, a couple of boys, and two officers on the overpass itself.

Mr. SPECTER. How did you identify the officers as being policemen?

Mr. ROWLAND. They were uniformed officers.

Mr. SPECTER. What kind of uniforms were they wearing?

Mr. ROWLAND. Blue; I think trimmed in gold, uniforms.

Mr. SPECTER. Are those the regular uniforms worn by the Dallas police?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Where were you standing at the time you observed the people on the overpass whom you have just described?

Mr. ROWLAND. Position "B."

Mr. SPECTER. At about what time was it when you observed those individuals?

Mr. ROWLAND. This was between the time between 12:15 and 12:30. I think I looked more than once.

Mr. SPECTER. How many times did you look?

Mr. ROWLAND. I don't know really. I was more or less scanning the crowd.

Mr. SPECTER. Did the individuals present on the triple overpass change at the various times when you looked in that direction?

Mr. ROWLAND. I don't think so. I don't think anyone went off who was up there or anyone else went on.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you now relate what occurred as the Presidential motorcade passed by you?

Mr. ROWLAND. Well, the car turned the corner at Houston and Main. Everyone was rushing, pressing the cars, trying to get closer. There were quite a few people, you know, trying to run alongside of the car such as this; officers were trying to prevent this. The car turned--we had more or less a long period of time that they were within our sight considering some of the other people.

The car went down Houston, again turned on Elm, and it was proceeding down Elm when we heard the first of the reports. This I passed off as a backfire, so did practically everyone in the area because gobs of people, when I say gobs, I mean almost everyone in the vicinity, started laughing that couldn't see the motorcade. The motorcade was obscured from our vision by the crowd.

Mr. SPECTER. What would the occasion be for laughter on the sound of a backfire?

Mr. ROWLAND. I don't know. A lot of people laughed. I don't know. But a lot of people laughed, chuckled, such as this. Then approximately 5 seconds, 5 or 6 seconds, the second report was heard, 2 seconds the third report. After the second report, I knew what it was, and----

Mr. SPECTER. What was it?

Mr. ROWLAND. I knew that it was a gun firing.

Mr. SPECTER. How did you know that?

Mr. ROWLAND. I have been around guns quite a bit in my lifetime.

Mr. SPECTER. Was the sound of the fire different from the first and second sounds you described?

Mr. ROWLAND. No, that is just it. It did not sound as though there was any return fire in that sense.

Mr. SPECTER. What do you mean by return fire?

Mr. ROWLAND. That anyone fired back. You know, anyone in the procession such as our detectives or Secret Service men fired back at anything else. It gave the report of a rifle which most of the Secret Service men don't carry in a holster although I am sure they had some in the cars but the following two shots were the same report being of the same intensity. I state, because from a different position I know that the same rifle is not going to make the same sound in two different positions especially in a position such as it was, because of the ricocheting of sound and echo effects.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your basis for saying that, Mr. Rowland, that the rifle would not make the same sound in two different positions?

Mr. ROWLAND. This is due to a long study of sound and study of echo effects.

Mr. SPECTER. When had you conducted that study?

Mr. ROWLAND. In physics in the past 3 years.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you read any special books on that subject?

Mr. ROWLAND. Quite a few.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recollect any of the titles and authors?

Mr. ROWLAND. No; I do not.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you take any special courses which would give you insight into that subject matter?

Mr. ROWLAND. This was more or less on my own initiative. The instructor gave me help and aided me when I requested this during my off periods of class.

Mr. SPECTER. What instructor was that?

Mr. ROWLAND. His name was Foster.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall his first name?

Mr. ROWLAND. Sam.

Mr. SPECTER. And at what school does he teach?