Part 26

Mr. ROWLAND. Studies in math and science.

Mr. SPECTER. Where were you studying these courses?

Mr. ROWLAND. This was a high school in Dallas as advanced courses.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you been accepted in any college?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; several. Texas A. & M., Rice, SMU, Arlington.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have plans to attend one of those colleges?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Which one do you plan to enter?

Mr. ROWLAND. Preferably Rice.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have an entry date set?

Mr. ROWLAND. No; I am trying for a scholarship for it.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you been in the military service?

Mr. ROWLAND. No; I haven't.

Mr. SPECTER. What is the general condition of your health.

Mr. ROWLAND. Good.

Mr. SPECTER. What is the condition of your eyesight?

Mr. ROWLAND. Very good.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you wear glasses at any time?

Mr. ROWLAND. No.

Mr. SPECTER. When, most recently, have you had an eye test, if at all?

Mr. ROWLAND. About 7 months ago.

Mr. SPECTER. And you know the results of that test?

Mr. ROWLAND. Very good vision.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what classification the doctor placed on it?

Mr. ROWLAND. No; I don't remember it.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recollect if it was 20-20?

Mr. ROWLAND. He said it was much better than that.

Mr. SPECTER. And what doctor examined your eyes?

Mr. ROWLAND. This was the firm of doctors Finn and Finn.

Mr. SPECTER. F-i-n-n and F-i-n-n?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Where are they located?

Mr. ROWLAND. The Fidelity Union Life Building in Dallas.

Mr. SPECTER. Approximately how long ago was that examination?

Mr. ROWLAND. About 6 months.

Mr. SPECTER. Going to the day of November 22, 1963, how were you occupied at that time, Mr. Rowland?

Mr. ROWLAND. I was attending classes in school part of the day, working part time as a pizzamaker in Pizza Inn.

Mr. SPECTER. Had you regularly scheduled classes on the morning of November 22, 1963?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. I had classes up until 11. I just had two classes on Friday.

Mr. SPECTER. And what school were you attending at that time?

Mr. ROWLAND. W. H. Adamson High.

Mr. SPECTER. How far is that from the intersection of Houston and Elm Streets in Dallas, approximately?

Mr. ROWLAND. It must have been about a mile and a half.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe for the Commission what you did on that morning, in a general way, up until approximately noon time?

Mr. ROWLAND. I went to my classes. My wife got out of school early. We went to town. I had to go to work at 4, so we were going downtown to do some shopping. We went early so we could see the President's motorcade.

Mr. SPECTER. What time did you arrive in town?

Mr. ROWLAND. We rode a bus from the school. We got to town approximately a quarter to 12.

Mr. SPECTER. What school was your wife attending at that time?

Mr. ROWLAND. The same: Adamson.

Mr. SPECTER. What time did her classes end?

Mr. ROWLAND. She got out at 11 also.

Mr. SPECTER. And what did you do from the time you arrived in town at approximately a quarter of 12 for the next 15 minutes?

Mr. ROWLAND. Trying to find a good vantage point. We walked about five or six blocks.

Mr. SPECTER. From where did you walk?

Mr. ROWLAND. We got off at the junction, at the intersection of Main and Houston, walked up toward Ervay, about four blocks, I would say up to Akard. We walked from Houston to Akard on Main, and then we walked back down Commerce and then over to the sheriffs or the county courthouse, there was a lesser crowd there.

Mr. SPECTER. Is that the reason you selected the spot you ultimately picked to watch the parade?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes, there was no one in front of us, no one around that area.

Mr. SPECTER. I am going to show you a photograph, Mr. Rowland, which has already been identified as Commission Exhibit No. 347 and first ask you if you can identify what scene this represents.

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I can.

Mr. SPECTER. What scene is that?

Mr. ROWLAND. This is the triple underpass, this is the scene where the President was assassinated.

Mr. SPECTER. What is this plaza called in Dallas?

Mr. ROWLAND. I don't know exactly. It is just known as the triple underpass.

Mr. SPECTER. Is it known as Dealey Plaza to your knowledge?

Mr. ROWLAND. I have never heard it called that.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you point with your finger for me at the spot where you were standing as best you can recollect it?

Mr. ROWLAND. We were about in this area on this sidewalk of this building. I say approximately two-thirds of the distance between here and here in this direction.

Mr. SPECTER. All right.

I have a substitute photograph for you to mark. I am now showing you an identical scene on a photograph which has been heretofore marked as Commission Exhibit No. 354. Will you mark with an arrow as closely as possible to the point where you were standing?

Mr. ROWLAND. There is an elevator shaft below this second window on that building that comes through a sidewalk. I was about 5 feet to the left of it, about the third window or right here in this area.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you mark that a little more heavily, please?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. What time were you so positioned?

Mr. ROWLAND. We got there about 5 after 12.

Mr. SPECTER. Did your position move at any time during the course of the next half hour?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. We did move to this corner, there were too many people on this corner.

Mr. SPECTER. You are indicating back to the corner of Houston and Main?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. Houston and Main there were too many crowds so we came back to this street here, Commerce is that right; no, Elm and Main. We came back to Elm and Main and figured it wouldn't be a very good vantage point because of the crowd there so we went back to where we were.

Mr. SPECTER. Where were you standing at the time the President's motorcade passed by you?

Mr. ROWLAND. At that position.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. The position you have marked with a "V," inverted "V."

Will you mark with the letter "A" the point to which you had moved when you described it as being at Commerce which you corrected to Elm and Houston.

Mr. ROWLAND. It was this corner.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. Approximately what time did you move to the position you have marked "A"?

Mr. ROWLAND. About 10 after 12.

Mr. SPECTER. How long did you stay at position "A"?

Mr. ROWLAND. Momentarily, just long enough to look, maybe a minute.

Mr. SPECTER. To look at what?

Mr. ROWLAND. To look at the position itself. There was too much of a crowd in that area. When the President would come by they would be pushing or rushing in that area and it would be too crowded for us.

Mr. SPECTER. At that point you did what?

Mr. ROWLAND. Then we went back to where we were.

Mr. SPECTER. To position "V"?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes, and we stayed there for a minute or so, walked to the corner of Main and Houston.

Mr. SPECTER. Mark Main and Houston with the letter "B," if you would, where you moved next.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. ROWLAND. Stayed there momentarily, less than a minute. There was quite a crowd there and we went back to where we were, our original position.

Mr. SPECTER. To position "V"?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. What time would you say you got back to your position "V"?

Mr. ROWLAND. We got back there 14 after, I noticed the time on my watch, and the Hertz time clock I noticed was about a minute later.

Mr. SPECTER. Where was the Hertz time clock located?

Mr. ROWLAND. That was on top of the school depository building.

Mr. SPECTER. Was your watch synchronized with the Hertz up on top.

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I always set it by the same clock whenever I pass it. I pass it coming into town and I set my watch at that time.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, did you observe at any time the building which is depicted in Commission Exhibit No. 348?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. We were looking around it, my wife and I, amongst the crowd, the different areas, making note of the policemen on top of the underpass itself, in that area, and the security precautions that were being taken.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chairman, I would like to show the witness the same photograph, but a different picture on an exhibit marked Commission Exhibit No. 356.

Mr. Rowland, I show you a picture marked Commission Exhibit No. 356 and ask you if you can identify what that represents?

Mr. ROWLAND. That is Houston, Elm running in front of this building. This is the school book depository building.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you familiar with that building prior to November 22, 1963?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I have been in there on occasion.

Mr. SPECTER. You have been in the building?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes, to purchase books.

Mr. SPECTER. When were you in the building most recently prior to November 22, 1963?

Mr. ROWLAND. Within the first week of November. This was to buy a physics notebook.

Mr. SPECTER. What part of the building were you in at that time?

Mr. ROWLAND. Just inside the door of the main lobby.

Mr. SPECTER. On the first floor?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Had you ever had occasion at any time to be on any floor other than the first floor?

Mr. ROWLAND. No.

Mr. SPECTER. While you were standing on Houston Street in the various positions which you have described, did you have occasion at any time to observe the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. When we returned to position "V" we stayed there, we began looking around. My wife and I were discussing the security precautions that were taken in view of the event when Mr. Stevenson was there.

Mr. SPECTER. Before you go on, let me ask you at which time was this on your return to position "V"?

Mr. ROWLAND. This was 12:15.

Mr. SPECTER. All right; proceed to tell us what you saw and heard at about that time?

Mr. ROWLAND. We were discussing, as I stated, the different security precautions, I mean it was a very important person who was coming and we were aware of the policemen around everywhere, and especially in positions where they would be able to watch crowds. We talked momentarily of the incidents with Mr. Stevenson, and the one before that with Mr. Johnson, and this being in mind we were more or less security conscious. We looked and at that time I noticed on the sixth floor of the building that there was a man back from the window, not hanging out the window.

He was standing and holding a rifle. This appeared to me to be a fairly high-powered rifle because of the scope and the relative proportion of the scope to the rifle, you can tell about what type of rifle it is. You can tell it isn't a .22, you know, and we thought momentarily that maybe we should tell someone but then the thought came to us that it is a security agent.

We had seen in the movies before where they have security men up in windows and places like that with rifles to watch the crowds, and we brushed it aside as that, at that time, and thought nothing else about it until after the event happened.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, by referring to the photograph on this Commission Exhibit No. 356, will you point to the window where you observed this man?

Mr. ROWLAND. This was very odd. There were--this picture was not taken immediately after that, I don't think, because there were several windows, there are pairs of windows, and there were several pairs where both windows were open fully and in each pair there was one or more persons hanging out the window.

Yet this was on the west corner of the building, the sixth floor, the first floor--second floor down from the top, the first was the arched, the larger windows, not the arch, but the larger windows, and this was the only pair of windows where both windows were completely open and no one was hanging out the windows, or next to the window.

It was this pair of windows here at that time.

Mr. SPECTER. All right.

Will you mark that pair of windows with a circle?

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best recollection as to how far each of those windows were open?

Mr. ROWLAND. To the fullest extent that they could be opened.

Mr. SPECTER. What extent would that be?

Mr. ROWLAND. Being as I looked half frame windows, that would be halfway of the entire length of the window.

Mr. SPECTER. Is that the approximate status of those windows depicted here in Exhibit 356?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. In which of those double windows did you see the man and rifle?

Mr. ROWLAND. It was through the window to my right.

Mr. SPECTER. Draw an arrow right into that window with the same black pencil please.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. How much, if any, or all of that rifle could you see?

Mr. ROWLAND. All of it.

Mr. SPECTER. You could see from the base of the stock down to the tip of the end of the rifle?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. The barrel of the rifle?

The CHAIRMAN. Congressman Ford, will you excuse me for just a few minutes to run across the street to my office. You conduct during my absence.

Representative FORD. Will you proceed, Mr. Specter?

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of the distance between where you were standing and the man holding the rifle whom you have just described?

(The Chief Justice left the hearing room.)

Mr. ROWLAND. 150 feet approximately, very possibly more. I don't know for sure.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you very good at judging distances of that sort?

Mr. ROWLAND. Fairly good.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you had any experience or practice at judging such distances?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. Even in using the method in physics or, you know, elementary physics of looking at a position in two different views, you can tell its distance. I did that quite frequently. And the best I can recollect it was within 150 to 175 feet.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you describe the rifle with any more particularity than you already have?

Mr. ROWLAND. No. In proportion to the scope it appeared to me to be a .30-odd size 6, a deer rifle with a fairly large or powerful scope.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say, .30-odd-6, exactly what did you mean by that?

Mr. ROWLAND. That is a rifle that is used quite frequently for deer hunting. It is an import.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you own any rifles?

Mr. ROWLAND. No; my stepfather does.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever gone hunting deer with such a rifle?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I have.

Mr. SPECTER. And is that a .30-odd-6 rifle that you have hunted deer with?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Is that a popular size of rifle in the Dallas, Tex., area?

Mr. ROWLAND. I don't know about Dallas. I do know in Oregon it is one of the most popular for deer hunting.

Mr. SPECTER. Was the rifle which you observed similar to, or perhaps identical with, .30-odd rifles which you have seen before?

Mr. ROWLAND. The best I could tell it was of that size.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you seen such .30-odd rifles before at close range which had telescopic sights?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; one my stepfather has has a very powerful scope on it.

Mr. SPECTER. And did this rifle appear similar to the one your stepfather owned?

Mr. ROWLAND. From my distance, I would say very similar or of similar manufacture.

Mr. SPECTER. In what manner was the rifle being held by the man whom you observed?

Mr. ROWLAND. The way he was standing it would have been in a position such as port arms in military terms.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say port arms you have positioned your left hand with the left elbow of your hand being about level with your shoulder and your right hand----

Mr. ROWLAND. Not quite level with my shoulder, and the right hand being lower on the trigger of the stock.

Mr. SPECTER. So the waist of the imaginary rifle you would be holding would cross your body at about a 45-degree angle.

Mr. ROWLAND. That is correct.

Mr. SPECTER. How long was the rifle held in that position?

Mr. ROWLAND. During the entire time that I saw him there.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see him hold it in any other position?

Mr. ROWLAND. No, I didn't.

Mr. SPECTER. For example, was he standing at any time in a parade-rest position?

Mr. ROWLAND. No; not to my knowledge.

Mr. SPECTER. Describe, as best you can, the appearance of the individual whom you saw?

Mr. ROWLAND. He was rather slender in proportion to his size. I couldn't tell for sure whether he was tall and maybe, you know heavy, say 200 pounds, but tall whether he would be and slender or whether he was medium and slender, but in proportion to his size his build was slender.

Mr. SPECTER. Could you give us an estimate on his height?

Mr. ROWLAND. No; I couldn't. That is why I said I can't state what height he would be. He was just slender in build in proportion with his width. This is something I find myself doing all the time, comparing things in perspective.

Mr. SPECTER. Was he a white man or a Negro or what?

Mr. ROWLAND. Seemed, well, I can't state definitely from my position because it was more or less not fully light or bright in the room. He appeared to be fair complexioned, not fair, but light complexioned, but dark hair.

Mr. SPECTER. What race was he then?

Mr. ROWLAND. I would say either a light Latin or a Caucasian.

Mr. SPECTER. And were you able to observe any characteristics of his hair?

Mr. ROWLAND. No; except that it was dark, probably black.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to observe whether he had a full head of hair or any characteristic as to quantity of hair?

Mr. ROWLAND. It didn't appear as if he had a receding hairline but I know he didn't have it hanging on his shoulders. Probably a close cut from--you know it appeared to me it was either well-combed or close cut.

Mr. SPECTER. What, if anything, did you observe as to the clothes he was wearing?

Mr. ROWLAND. He had on a light shirt, a very light-colored shirt, white or a light blue or a color such as that. This was open at the collar. I think it was unbuttoned about halfway, and then he had a regular T-shirt, a polo shirt under this, at least this is what it appeared to be. He had on dark slacks or blue jeans, I couldn't tell from that. I didn't see but a small portion.

Mr. SPECTER. You say you only saw a small portion of what?

Mr. ROWLAND. Of his pants from his waist down.

Mr. SPECTER. Which half of the window was open, the bottom half or the top half?

Mr. ROWLAND. It was the bottom half.

Mr. SPECTER. And how much, if any, of his body was obscured by the window frame from that point down to the floor?

Mr. ROWLAND. From where I was standing I could see from his head to about 6 inches below his waist, below his belt.

Mr. SPECTER. Could you see as far as his knees?

Mr. ROWLAND. No.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is your best recollection as to how close to the window he was standing?

Mr. ROWLAND. He wasn't next to the window, but he wasn't very far back. I would say 3 to 5 feet back from the window.

Mr. SPECTER. How much of the rifle was separated from your line of vision by the window?

Mr. ROWLAND. The entire rifle was in my view.

Mr. SPECTER. In the open part of the window?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And how much of his body, if any, was in the open view where there was no window between your eyes and the object of his body?

Mr. ROWLAND. Approximately two-thirds of his body just below his waist.

Mr. SPECTER. Up to what point?

Mr. ROWLAND. Mid point between the waist and the knees, this is again in my proportion to his height that I make that judgment.

Mr. SPECTER. So from the waist, some point between his knees and his waist, you started to see him clear in the window?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And from that point how far up his body were you able to see without any obstruction of a window between you and him?

Mr. ROWLAND. To the top of his head. There was some space on top of that where I could see the wall behind him.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of the space between the top of his head and the open window at the perspective you were observing?

Mr. ROWLAND. Two and a half, three feet, something on that--that is something very hard to ascertain. That would just be an estimation on my part.

Mr. SPECTER. Is there anything else you observed about his appearance or his clothing or the rifle which you haven't already told us about?

Representative FORD. Was he facing toward you directly?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Representative FORD. In other words, did you get a full view of his face and his chest and the front of him?

Mr. ROWLAND. He appeared to me as though he were looking out the window and watching the crowd in particular.

Representative FORD. Excuse me, go ahead.

Mr. ROWLAND. That is all right.

Representative FORD. Was he looking toward the corner of Houston and Main?

Mr. ROWLAND. No; I would say he was looking in the area or the general vicinity of where I was.

Representative FORD. And you were on the sidewalk on Houston in front of the building that you have indicated?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. Now, I can't--here again I wasn't close enough to see his eyes but from the position of his head he was looking in that general area. It could have been that maybe he was--his eyes were a little bit off perspective and he was watching that corner, I don't know.

Representative FORD. In what position did you say his hands were on the rifle?

Mr. ROWLAND. One hand was at what is called the gun stock of the rifle, just above the trigger, it was around the rifle. The other was at the other end of the rifle about 4 inches below the end of the stock.

Representative FORD. Was the rifle held above his waist?

Mr. ROWLAND. The majority of it was, just a small portion of butt below his waist.

Representative FORD. The butt or the end of the rifle, the barrel end?

Mr. ROWLAND. The butt, the stock end, was below his waist. The barrel being pointed in the air toward the ceiling or the wall next to him.

Representative FORD. I see. The stock was down and the barrel was up.

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to form any opinion as to the age of that man?

Mr. ROWLAND. This is again just my estimation. He was--I think I remember telling my wife that he appeared in his early thirties. This could be obscured because of the distance, I mean.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to form any opinion as to the weight of the man in addition to the line of proportion which you have already described?

Mr. ROWLAND. I would say about 140 to 150 pounds.

Representative FORD. When did you tell your wife you thought he was in his thirties?

Mr. ROWLAND. Right after I noticed the man, I brought him to my wife's attention, and she was looking at something else at that time, we looked at that, and when we both looked back she wanted to see also, and he was gone from our vision.

Representative FORD. So she never saw him?

Mr. ROWLAND. My wife never saw him.

Representative FORD. Did you say at that time how old he was or how old you thought he was?

Mr. ROWLAND. I think I remarked to my wife that he appeared in his thirties, early thirties.

Mr. SPECTER. When, after you first observed him did you have a conversation about him with your wife?

Mr. ROWLAND. Right afterwards. There was--just before I observed him there was a police motorcycle parked just on the street, not in front of us, just a little past us, and the radio was on it giving the details of the motorcade, where it was positioned, and right after the time I noticed him and when my wife was pointing this other thing to me, I don't remember what that was, the dispatcher came on and gave the position of the motorcade as being on Cedar Springs. This would be in the area of Turtle Creek, down in that area.

I can't remember the street's name but I know where it is at. And this was the position of the motorcade and it was about 15 or 16 after 12.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, did you tell your wife about the presence of this man immediately after you saw him?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And what was the quality or condition of her eyes?

Mr. ROWLAND. She has nearsightedness and has to wear glasses.

Mr. SPECTER. Was she wearing glasses at the time?

Mr. ROWLAND. No, she wasn't.