Part 25

Mr. SPECTER. Now, will you mark in a black "X" on 347 the spot where your car was at the time you heard the first shot?

Mr. JACKSON. Right here approximately. And as we heard the first shot, I believe it was Tom Dillard from Dallas News who made some remark as to that sounding like a firecracker, and it could have been somebody else who said that. But someone else did speak up and make that comment and before he actually finished the sentence we heard the other two shots. Then we realized or we thought that it was gunfire, and then we could not at that point see the President's car. We were still moving slowly, and after the third shot the second two shots seemed much closer together than the first shot, than they were to the first shot. Then after the last shot, I guess all of us were just looking all around and I just looked straight up ahead of me which would have been looking at the School Book Depository and I noticed two Negro men in a window straining to see directly above them, and my eyes followed right on up to the window above them and I saw the rifle or what looked like a rifle approximately half of the weapon, I guess I saw, and just as I looked at it, it was drawn fairly slowly back into the building, and I saw no one in the window with it.

I didn't even see a form in the window.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you do next?

Mr. JACKSON. I said "There is the gun," or it came from that window. I tried to point it out. But by the time the other people looked up, of course, it was gone, and about that time we were beginning to turn the corner.

Mr. SPECTER. Which corner were you beginning to turn?

Mr. JACKSON. Houston onto Elm.

Mr. SPECTER. I now show you a photograph marked as Commission Exhibit No. 348 and ask you if you can identify what that depicts?

Mr. JACKSON. This is the School Book Depository. This is the window the two colored men were looking out of. This is the window where the rifle was.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you mark the window where the rifle was with an "A" and would you please mark the window where you have identified the men below with a "B."

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. Referring to your mark of "A," the photograph will show that you have marked the window on the sixth floor with the mark being placed on the window on the westerly half of the first double window.

Mr. JACKSON. I am sorry. This window here on the very end was the window where the weapon was. I am sorry, I just marked the double--actually this is the rifle window right here.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you take the black pencil again and draw an arrow--before you start to mark, hear the rest of the question--as precisely as you can to the exact spot where you saw what you have described as the rifle.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. Was the window you have just marked as being the spot from which the rifle protruded, open when you looked up?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best recollection as to how far open it was at that time?

Mr. JACKSON. I would say that it was open like that window there, halfway.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating a window on the sixth floor of the westernmost portion of the building open halfway as you have described it.

My last comment, as to the description of your last window, is only for the purpose of what you have said in identifying a window to show how far open the window was.

Mr. JACKSON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Which you heretofore marked with an arrow, correct?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir.

Also in that window I could see boxes, corrugated boxes on the left portion which would be my left, of the window, of the open window.

Mr. SPECTER. How many boxes could you see?

Mr. JACKSON. I couldn't tell. It just seemed like a stack of boxes.

Mr. SPECTER. How high were the boxes stacked?

Mr. JACKSON. Maybe two is all I saw. They were stacked, I believe they were as high as the window was open, halfway up the window.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best recollection of the size of those boxes which you say you saw?

Mr. JACKSON. Maybe like that, that wide.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating approximately 3 feet wide?

Mr. JACKSON. Three feet or a little less maybe.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the height of those boxes?

Mr. JACKSON. I would say high enough to hide a man. Let's say, between 5 and 6 feet high, I would say to the best of my recollection. From the angle I was looking at it, I would say they were 5 feet high at least.

Mr. SPECTER. That is each box would be 5 feet high?

Mr. JACKSON. No; the stack, the stacked boxes.

Mr. SPECTER. Could you see how many boxes were stacked up to reach a total height of 5 to 6 feet?

Mr. JACKSON. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, were you able to see anyone in front of those boxes?

Mr. JACKSON. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Whether or not you could identify anyone, could you see even the form or outline of the man?

Mr. JACKSON. No, sir. It looked to me like the man was over to the side of the window because the rifle was at quite an angle to me.

Mr. SPECTER. Which side of the window?

Mr. JACKSON. Well, from the position of the rifle it would be the corner of the building, the east. It would be to the right of the window from my view.

Mr. SPECTER. Which direction was the rifle pointing?

Mr. JACKSON. West. To my left.

Mr. SPECTER. Was it pointing in a straight westerly direction or was it pointing at an angle from the building.

Mr. JACKSON. It was at an angle from the building. I am not--well, let's see--well, it wouldn't be directly west.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the general line of direction of the pointing of the rifle?

Mr. JACKSON. Well, directly down the street.

Mr. SPECTER. And by down the street you are pointing out what street?

Mr. JACKSON. Down Elm Street toward the triple, toward the underpass.

Mr. SPECTER. Was it pointed as you have indicated at the angle which Elm Street traverses heading toward the triple underpass?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir. And the rifle was pointing slightly down.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you at any time in this sequence observe the President's automobile?

Mr. JACKSON. As we turned the corner--or we stopped where the intersection, actually we stopped before we began to turn left onto Elm Street, or rather I would say we hesitated and we were all looking down towards the President's car and I could see two cars going under the underpass. I barely saw the President's car. I would say just the rear end of it as it disappeared under the underpass.

Mr. SPECTER. Was that the only time you saw the President's car from the time you made a right-hand turn off of Main Street onto Houston Street?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate as to the time span between the first shot you heard and the last shot you heard?

Mr. JACKSON. I would say 5 to 8 seconds.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you give us a breakdown between the shots which you heard as to how many seconds elapsed between each one?

Mr. JACKSON. I would say to me it seemed like 3 or 4 seconds between the first and the second, and between the second and third, well, I guess 2 seconds, they were very close together. It could have been more time between the first and second. I really can't be sure.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you sure you heard three shots?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, will you mark on the overhead shot, which is Exhibit 347, with a "Y" as precisely as you can the position of your automobile at the time you heard the second shot?

Mr. JACKSON. With a "Y"?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes, please.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. Would you now mark on the same exhibit the precise position of your car as closely as you can recollect it when you heard the third shot with a letter "Z"?

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. When, in relation to the timing of the shots, which you have described, did you first look toward the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. JACKSON. It couldn't have been more than 3 seconds before I looked at that window.

Mr. SPECTER. Three seconds from what point in time?

Mr. JACKSON. From the last shot.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you say from the last shot?

Mr. JACKSON. From the last shot, yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best recollection or estimate of the speed of your automobile as you were proceeding in a generally northerly direction on Houston Street at the time of the shooting?

Mr. JACKSON. I would say not over 15 miles an hour.

Mr. SPECTER. What would your best estimate be as to the minimum speed?

Mr. JACKSON. Ten, I would say.

Mr. SPECTER. Where, in the window were the two Negro men, whom you have described?

Mr. JACKSON. Well, there was one in each of those double windows.

Mr. SPECTER. On which floor was that?

Mr. JACKSON. The fifth floor.

Mr. SPECTER. And will you place an arrow where you saw each of those men, please?

Mr. JACKSON. Each one of them?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any reaction from either or both of those two men when you saw them?

Mr. JACKSON. No, sir. Just looking up.

Mr. SPECTER. Could you see their faces reasonably clearly to observe that they were looking up.

Mr. JACKSON. I could tell they were looking up because they were leaning way out just like that. I couldn't see their faces very well at all.

Mr. SPECTER. The witness has leaned forward and turned his head to the right and looking upward as he sits in the witness chair, may the record show.

Representative FORD. Did they both turn the same way as you have indicated in answer to Mr. Specter's question?

Mr. JACKSON. To the best of my recollection one man looked up to his right and the other man looked up like this to his left, one in each window.

Representative FORD. Can you identify which to his right and which to his left?

Mr. JACKSON. I believe the one on the right window, my right, was looking to his right. The one on the west window, the one to my left was looking to his left. I believe I am right on that but I may not be because I just looked at them for a fraction of a second, I just followed them up.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of the distance which separated you from those two men at the time you observed them?

Mr. JACKSON. I am not very good at distances. I was about the middle of the block, I guess. I would say around a hundred yards, I guess.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see those two men before or after you observed the rifle?

Mr. JACKSON. Before.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of how many inches of the rifle that you observed?

Mr. JACKSON. I saw the barrel and about half--well, I did not see a telescopic sight, but I did see part of the stock, so I guess maybe 8 or 10 inches of the stock maybe. I did see part of the stock, I did not see the sight.

Mr. SPECTER. Eight or ten inches of the stock, and how much of the barrel would you estimate?

Mr. JACKSON. I guess possibly a foot.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see anyone's hands on the rifle?

Mr. JACKSON. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, as best as you can recollect it, what exact words did you state at or about the time you made the observation of the rifle, if any?

Mr. JACKSON. I said, "There is the gun" and somebody said "Where?" And I said, "It came from that window" and I pointed to that window.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recollect who it was who said "Where?"

Mr. JACKSON. Somebody in the car, I don't recall who.

Mr. SPECTER. Did anybody else in the car say anything else at that time?

Mr. JACKSON. Nothing that I could remember. I am sure they were all talking.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you say anything else at about that time?

Mr. JACKSON. If I did, I don't remember.

Mr. SPECTER. Did anyone in the automobile state that he, too, had seen the rifle from the window?

Mr. JACKSON. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have a conversation with all of the men in the car immediately after the incident?

Mr. JACKSON. No, sir; because as, I guess after the third shot, I do recall the driver speeding up, and we hesitated at the corner before turning left, and three of the occupants of the car got out, jumped out.

Mr. SPECTER. Who were those three?

Mr. JACKSON. That was Underwood, Jim Underwood, Tom Dillard and one of the TV cameramen. The WHAA channel 8 cameraman and I were left in the back seat. We couldn't make up our minds.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there an individual in the car by the name of Mr. Couch, to your knowledge?

Mr. JACKSON. Couch?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. JACKSON. I don't know him.

Mr. SPECTER. Malcolm Couch?

Mr. JACKSON. The name is familiar. I might state what I did see as we did hesitate there, at the corner, I don't recall whether this was before the other three fellows got out of the car or not, I believe we were still all in the car, as we observed these other things, but in a fleeting glance as I saw the cars go under the underpass, I did see people running. I saw a motorcycle policeman jump off his motorcycle, in fact, he just hit the curb and just let it fall, and he went down on his knees on the grass, on the lawn of that parkway.

I did see a family covering up their child, and I just saw a state of confusion, people running, and that is about all I saw at that point of the scene.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Jackson, at the time you heard the first shot, did you have any reaction or impression from the sound itself as to the source of the shot, point of origin?

Mr. JACKSON. No, sir; I didn't. It did sound like it came from ahead of us or from that general vicinity but I could not tell whether it was high up or on the ground.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say that general vicinity, what vicinity did you mean?

Mr. JACKSON. We were sure it came from ahead of us which would be in a northerly direction, northwesterly direction. It did sound as though it came from somewhere around the head of the motorcade.

Mr. SPECTER. From the second shot, did you have any reaction or impression as to the source of this shot?

Mr. JACKSON. No, sir. Through all three shots, I could just tell that it was ahead of me and not behind me, that is it.

Mr. SPECTER. And the same impression then prevailed through the third shot as well.

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir. To me it never sounded like it was high or low.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you had occasion since this incident to relate the factual sequences, your observations and what you heard? Have you had occasion to tell anybody about what you saw and heard as you have described it to us?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Has there been any variation in your recollection or impressions about your observations on these occasions?

Mr. JACKSON. Not to my knowledge. The other times were not as thorough as this.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chief Justice, those are all of the questions which I have, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Congressman Ford, any questions you would like to ask Mr. Jackson?

Representative FORD. Mr. Jackson, when and by whom were you questioned or interrogated subsequent to the event? I was thinking of the FBI, the Secret Service, or any investigative organization.

Mr. JACKSON. You say when, how soon afterwards?

Representative FORD. Right.

Mr. JACKSON. I would say within 2 days afterwards, let's see, the next day was the first day.

Representative FORD. Saturday November 23?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir; I believe it was the first time.

Representative FORD. Who, by name, if you can, but if not by what organization?

Mr. JACKSON. The FBI called me, I believe it was Friday evening, and I believe I did give some information on the phone Friday night.

Representative FORD. Was that followed up----

Mr. JACKSON. And they came and saw me in the office, I believe on Saturday.

Representative FORD. How did they happen to contact you? Had you made a statement publicly before?

Mr. JACKSON. Our newspaper ran an article by me or I got a byline on it stating this in general which I have stated today.

Representative FORD. Following this initial contact have you made subsequent statements to various organizations or any organization?

Mr. JACKSON. I made statements to the Secret Service also. Other than that there was none other.

Representative FORD. How good are your eyes, do you wear glasses?

Mr. JACKSON. No, sir.

Representative FORD. Have you had an eye examination recently or when was the last examination?

Mr. JACKSON. I had a physical when I reenlisted in the National Guard, let's see, that was, I believe, about a year and a half ago, I had that physical and I had 20-20 vision.

Representative FORD. 20-20 vision?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. You just indicated you were in the Texas National Guard?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. How long have you been in the Texas National Guard?

Mr. JACKSON. I joined in October 1958.

Representative FORD. And you have been in continuously since?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. So you are familiar with guns in general?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. So you would readily identify, if you saw it, a rifle?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. Did any others in the automobile in which you were riding recollect as far as you know, hearing you say "There is the gun."

Mr. JACKSON. I don't know whether they would remember it or not.

Representative FORD. Have you ever talked with any others in the car?

Mr. JACKSON. I have never sat down and talked with them about the events, no, sir. I have seen them, of course, several times but I have never discussed it with them.

Representative FORD. You never discussed what you said or what they said?

Mr. JACKSON. No, sir. I guess the one man I have discussed it more with than anybody else was Tom Dillard, the chief photographer for the Dallas News, and we recalled to each other the scene but we really never went into any detail or as to what each one of us said either.

Representative FORD. At the time you were in the car, after it had turned from Main onto Houston, was there any noise from the crowd on either side of the street, Houston Street?

Mr. JACKSON. There was very little crowd on Houston, as I recall. On Houston itself. The crowd--I mean as compared to Main Street, to the other end of town and down through Main. The crowd thinned out as we got down near the intersection of Main and Houston, and there were a lot less people but I couldn't make an estimate of how many.

Representative FORD. There was no noise from the crowd at that point?

Mr. JACKSON. No, sir; no noise, I would say.

Representative FORD. At the time you heard the first shot, what was your position in the car? Were you standing or sitting?

Mr. JACKSON. I was sitting on the back of the seat, on the right-hand side of the back seat, sitting up.

Representative FORD. Did you have your camera in your hand?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes; I had one camera around my neck and the camera I had just emptied, it was in my lap. I had thrown my film out to this reporter over the side of the car as we rounded the corner and I still had the camera lying in my lap, and the other one was around my neck.

Representative FORD. Was this the position you were in at the time you heard the first shot?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. After the third shot and as the car hesitated, did you see any law enforcement officials move in any concentrated or concerted direction?

Mr. JACKSON. I saw at least one, there may have been more, run up the School Depository steps, toward the door. That is one of the things I saw in this confusion.

Representative FORD. This was separate from the policeman on the motorcycle?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir. Yes. I should have said that a while ago. There was a policeman who moved toward the door of the Depository. But to my best knowledge there was no concentrated movement toward any one spot. It looked like general confusion to me, and of course, I stayed in the car. As we did turn the corner our driver speeded up and we went by the scene pretty fast and I do recall this Negro family covering up their child on the grass, and I, as we passed them, they were just getting up and he had the child in his arms and the child looked limp and I didn't know whether the child was shot or not. But then we were moving fast and went on under the underpass.

Representative FORD. That is all, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Wright, do you have any questions?

Mr. WRIGHT. No, Mr. Chief Justice, I passed a question on.

Mr. SPECTER. I have just one additional question, and that is whether Mr. Jackson had any occasion to see anybody leave the scene of the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. JACKSON. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. That is all, Your Honor.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Jackson, thank you very much for coming.

Mr. JACKSON. Thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. We appreciate it.

Who is next?

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Rowland.

The CHAIRMAN. Would you raise your right hand and be sworn, please.

Do you solemnly swear the testimony given before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Specter will conduct the examination.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you state your full name for the record, please, but before you do, Mr. Chief Justice, is it your practice to read that statement to the witness?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes. I will read a short statement to you for the purpose of the hearing.

The purpose of today's hearing is to hear the testimony of Arnold Louis Rowland, Amos Lee Euins, James Richard Worrell, and Robert H. Jackson, who were in the vicinity of the assassination scene on November 22, 1963. The Commission proposes to ask these witnesses for facts concerning their knowledge of the assassination of President Kennedy.

A copy of that statement was furnished to you, was it not?

Mr. ROWLAND. No.

The CHAIRMAN. You didn't see it. You have one before you. Very well.

TESTIMONY OF ARNOLD LOUIS ROWLAND

Mr. SPECTER. Will you please state your full name for the record, Mr. Rowland?

Mr. ROWLAND. Arnold Louis Rowland.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your address?

Mr. ROWLAND. 1131 Aphinney.

Mr. SPECTER. And in what city do you reside?

Mr. ROWLAND. This is Dallas, Tex.

Mr. SPECTER. How long have you resided in Dallas, Tex.

Mr. ROWLAND. About 9 months at present.

Mr. SPECTER. Where did you live before coming to Dallas?

Mr. ROWLAND. In Salem, Oreg.

Mr. SPECTER. How long did you live in Salem, Oreg.

Mr. ROWLAND. About 3 months.

Mr. SPECTER. Where did you live before moving to Salem, Oreg.

Mr. ROWLAND. Dallas.

Mr. SPECTER. How long did you live in Dallas at that time?

Mr. ROWLAND. About 4 years.

Mr. SPECTER. Where were you born?

Mr. ROWLAND. Corpus Christi, Tex.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you lived in Texas most of your life?

Mr. ROWLAND. Most of my life.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your age at the present time, Mr. Rowland?

Mr. ROWLAND. Eighteen.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is your exact date of birth, please?

Mr. ROWLAND. April 29, 1945.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your marital status.

Mr. ROWLAND. Married.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you any children?

Mr. ROWLAND. No.

Mr. SPECTER. How long have you been married?

Mr. ROWLAND. Ten months.

Mr. SPECTER. What education have you had, sir?

Mr. ROWLAND. High school.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you attending high school at the present time?

Mr. ROWLAND. I have finished, and fixing to go to college.

Mr. SPECTER. When did you graduate from high school?

Mr. ROWLAND. June 1963.

Mr. SPECTER. How have you been occupied or employed since June of 1963?

Mr. ROWLAND. Worked in Oregon at three different jobs. Exchange Lumber Co. as a shipping clerk, Meier Frank Co. as a clothes salesman, and part time at West Foods. The business was mushroom processing. That was during the summer.

Upon my return to Dallas, I worked part time, while doing some postgraduate work, at the Pizza Inn. At present I am working with the P. F. Collier Co.

Mr. SPECTER. What sort of work are you doing with P. F. Collier?

Mr. ROWLAND. That is promotional advertising.

Mr. SPECTER. What college are you attending, if any, at the present time?

Mr. ROWLAND. None at the present.

Mr. SPECTER. What postgraduate work had you been doing that you just mentioned?