Part 24

Then we were joined by many others. Congressman Homer Thornberry came in, and Congressman Brooks, and Cliff Carter, and the Vice President had some conversations with these gentlemen. And at one time Cliff went out and got coffee. And then Mr. Ken O'Donnell and Roy Kellerman came down on one occasion, and Ken O'Donnell said for us to return to Washington, and to go ahead and take the President's plane.

The Vice President was worried about Mrs. Kennedy. So Mrs. Johnson thought that she would go see Mrs. Kennedy and Mrs. Connally. She did. Agents Kivett and Taylor went with her. Then later, after she came back, Ken O'Donnell and Roy Kellerman came down again and told us that the President had died.

Mr. SPECTER. About what time was that, sir?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. I don't know. I had told Lem Johns to try to keep up with all the times. I think it is a matter of record. I believe you have it in other documents.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, are you referring to a document which I will mark as Commission Exhibit 355?

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 355 for identification.)

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. This is our shift report, and this is the times that Lem Johns was keeping that day. He shows 1 p.m., President Kennedy died at Parkland Hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. Was that daily shift report prepared under your supervision, Mr. Youngblood?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you review it and approve it when it was completed, after the end of the workday on November 22?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Well, not exactly at the end of the workday, sir. These agents would keep notes. And in this particular case you can see that this one, it says, "Date completed, December 2" down at the bottom. That is when he got around to typing it.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, does this document bear your initial in any place?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Yes, sir; up at the top. The "RYW" is my initials.

Mr. SPECTER. And does that signify your approval shortly after completion of the document?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. All right. Would you go ahead and tell us what your activities were from the time you had learned that the President had died?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Well, when Mr. O'Donnell and Roy Kellerman told us that he had died, the Vice President said, "Well, how about Mrs. Kennedy?"

O'Donnell told the Vice President that Mrs. Kennedy would not leave the hospital without the President's body. And O'Donnell suggested we go to the plane and that they just come on the other plane. And I might add that, as a word of explanation, there were two jet planes, one Air Force 1, in which the President flew, and the other Air Force 2, in which the Vice President and his party flew on. And O'Donnell told us to go ahead and take Air Force 1. I believe this is mainly because Air Force 1 has better communications equipment and so forth than the other planes.

President Johnson said that he didn't want to go off and leave Mrs. Kennedy in such a state. And so he agreed that we would go on to the airplane and board the plane and wait until Mrs. Kennedy and the body would come out. Shall I go on?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes. Proceed. Did you then depart from Parkland Hospital?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Yes, sir; previous to all of this, I had Johns, my agent, line up some unmarked police cars so that they would be ready when we did decide to evacuate the hospital.

So we left the room and proceeded out to these cars. The car that we went in was driven by Chief Curry, the Dallas Police Chief, and Congressman Thornberry was in the front seat, and the Vice President and I were in the back seat. And I had told the Vice President before we left the room that I would prefer that he stay below window level, and stay close with me as we went out, and that I would also prefer Mrs. Johnson to go in another car, but she would be accompanied by agents. And Mrs. Johnson did get in a second car. She was accompanied by Warren Taylor and Jerry Kivett and Congressman Brooks, and also Glen Bennett, another agent from the White House.

And as we started to leave the hospital area, that is drive away, just as we started away, Congressman Thomas saw us leaving--I imagine he saw Congressman Thornberry, and he said, "Wait for me." I don't think he saw the Vice President. And I told the driver to continue. I didn't want to stop there in front of the hospital. But by this time Congressman Thomas was right over at the side of the car, and the Vice President said, "Stop and let him get in."

So he got in in the front seat with Congressman Thornberry, having Congressman Thornberry move over closer to the driver. And then we started out again. This probably takes longer to tell about it than it actually took. It was about a 30-second stop.

We started out again, and the Vice President asked Congressman Thornberry to climb on over and get in the back seat, which he did, while the car was in motion. And then that put Congressman Thornberry behind the driver, and on the Vice President's left, and I was on his right.

And we continued on our way. We were momentarily stopped as we were leaving the hospital on this access road. There was a truck or delivery or something coming in there. We were stopped for one moment. But then the police got us on through, and we went on out to the main roads, and we were getting a motorcycle escort.

And they started using the sirens, and the Vice President and I both asked Chief Curry to discontinue the use of sirens, that we didn't want to attract attention. We were going on an unscheduled different route. We were not using any particular route. But in telling Lem Johns to get a car available, I told him to be sure and get a local driver who knew the area, a local policeman who could take us any route that we needed to go, and knew all the areas of evacuation and so forth.

So we went on to the airport. But we did have him stop using the sirens. And just before arriving at the airport, I called on the radio and told Air Force 1 to be ready to receive us, that we would be coming on board immediately. We arrived there and ran up the ramp onto the plane.

Mr. SPECTER. And how long after that did the swearing-in ceremonies occur? Approximately?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. I would say in the neighborhood of about 40 or 45 minutes after that.

Mr. SPECTER. How long after the arrival of the Vice President on the plane did the party of the late President Kennedy and Mrs. Kennedy arrive at the plane?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Approximately--after we got on the plane, I would say it was approximately 30 or 35 minutes before Mrs. Kennedy and that party arrived.

Mr. SPECTER. And how long after the swearing-in ceremonies did the plane take off for the Washington area?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. After the swearing-in ceremonies, it took off immediately. It was just a matter of letting the people who had to get off the plane, such as Judge Hughes and Chief Curry disembark, and as soon as they had disembarked, we closed the door and started taxiing out.

Mr. SPECTER. Were there any conversations between Vice President Johnson and anyone else with respect to advice on the swearing-in ceremonies?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Yes, sir. I think probably the first thing the Vice President did after he got on board the plane was to place a call to the Attorney General. In fact, he talked to the Attorney General, I believe, two times--at least two times.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you present when those conversations occurred?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. I was present when he placed the first call. I think he placed the first call from the bedroom there of the plane. Then someone from the Attorney General's office called back--not the Attorney General, but someone from the office--and gave the wording of the oath.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you informed as to what advice Vice President Johnson received from Mr. Kennedy with respect to the time of swearing in?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. I heard him discussing this--because after we got on board the plane I told them to pull down the shades, and then I told the Vice President, I am going to stick with you like glue while we are on the ground here. And so we were joined by Mrs. Johnson and then by Congressman Thornberry and Thomas, and Congressman Brooks. And I heard them discussing about taking the oath immediately, right there in Dallas. I heard the Vice President ask about anyone in particular that should administer the oath. And as I gathered from conversation, it was anyone who was authorized to administer a Federal oath. And then he put in calls to Judge Hughes, and he told me to expect Judge Hughes and to be sure she could get through the security lines.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, were you informed that Attorney General Kennedy advised Vice President Johnson that he should have himself sworn in as promptly as possible?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Well, as I said, I was in the area, in their immediate vicinity, when they were talking about it. And this is what I gathered from hearing them talk--that the Attorney General had told him to go ahead and be sworn in there, as soon as possible.

Mr. SPECTER. And upon arrival back in Andrews Air Force Base, what activity, if any, were you engaged in then, along with President Johnson?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Well, on the plane, on the flight up here, there had been numerous radio contacts in making arrangements and so forth. But when we actually arrived, Mrs. Kennedy and the body were removed first by the lift that was provided, and then when the ramp was in place, our party disembarked from the plane, and then President Johnson had a short statement that he was to make, and we went over to an area where the microphones were set up, and he made this brief statement. And then we proceeded from there to the awaiting helicopter, which was just a few yards away. We boarded the helicopter and flew in to the south grounds of the White House.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you then accompany President Johnson to his home?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. He didn't go to his home at that time; but the answer to your question is yes, when he did go later that night. You see, he went to his office in the EOB, the Executive Office Building, and conducted business there until in the vicinity of 9 o'clock. And then he went home, at which time I accompanied him, and many other agents.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe briefly what security arrangements if any were instituted on that day for the Vice President's daughters?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Yes, sir.

While we were in the hospital, receiving these reports relative to President Kennedy's condition, I asked Mrs. Johnson--I knew generally where Luci and Lynda were, but I wanted to get the very latest from her, since sometimes these girls might visit a friend or a relative. And I knew that Lynda was going to the University of Texas, and that Luci was going to National Cathedral. So I confirmed the locations with Mrs. Johnson and then told Agent Kivett, who was in our presence at the time I was talking to her, to make the necessary calls to have Secret Service protection placed around Lynda and Luci. And Agent Kivett made these calls and then came back and reported to me that Lockwood, from Austin, who is in the San Antonio office, but he was in Austin at the time, had proceeded to the University of Texas to get Lynda, and that an agent from the Washington field office would go out and get Luci at the school.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chief Justice, I move for the admission into evidence of Commission Exhibits No. 354, which is a reproduction of the overhead shot, and 355, which is a reproduction of the Vice Presidential detail schedules.

The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted.

(The documents heretofore marked for identification as Commission Exhibits Nos. 354 and 355, were received in evidence.)

Mr. SPECTER. That concludes my questions, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Craig, any questions?

Mr. CRAIG. No, sir.

Mr. MURRAY. I have no questions, Mr. Chief Justice.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, Agent Youngblood, thank you very much for coming and testifying. We appreciate it.

We will adjourn now. We will adjourn until 9 in the morning.

(Whereupon, at 6:20 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)

_Tuesday, March 10, 1964_

TESTIMONY OF ROBERT HILL JACKSON, ARNOLD LOUIS ROWLAND, JAMES RICHARD WORRELL, JR., AND AMOS LEE EUINS

The President's Commission met at 9:15 a.m. on March 10, 1964 at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.

Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Sherman Cooper and Representative Gerald R. Ford, members.

Also present were Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel; David W. Belin, assistant counsel; Norman Redlich, assistant counsel; Arlen Specter, assistant counsel; and Edward L. Wright, Chairman, House of Delegates, American Bar Association.

TESTIMONY OF ROBERT HILL JACKSON

The CHAIRMAN. All right, gentlemen, are we ready? Would you raise your right hand and be sworn, Mr. Jackson? Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. JACKSON. I do.

The CHAIRMAN. Will you be seated, please.

Mr. Specter will conduct the examination.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you state----

The CHAIRMAN. First, I will read a very small short statement for the record. The purpose of this day's hearing is to hear the testimony of Arnold Louis Rowland, Amos Lee Euins, James Richard Worrell, and Robert H. Jackson, who were in the vicinity of the assassination scene on November 22, 1963. The Commission proposes to ask these witnesses for facts concerning their knowledge of the assassination of President Kennedy.

You have seen a copy of this, have you, Mr. Jackson?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well, you may proceed, Mr. Specter.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name for the record, please?

Mr. JACKSON. Robert Hill Jackson.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is your address, Mr. Jackson?

Mr. JACKSON. 4030 Sperry.

Mr. SPECTER. What city is that located in?

Mr. JACKSON. Dallas, Tex.

Mr. SPECTER. How long have you lived at that address, please?

Mr. JACKSON. Since September of 1963.

Mr. SPECTER. And of what State are you a native?

Mr. JACKSON. I am a native of Dallas, Tex.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you lived in Dallas all your life?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your occupation at the present time?

Mr. JACKSON. Staff photographer for the Dallas Times Herald.

Mr. SPECTER. How long have you been so employed?

Mr. JACKSON. Since August of 1960.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you outline for us briefly----

The CHAIRMAN. 1950 or 1960?

Mr. JACKSON. 1960.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you outline for us briefly your educational background, please?

Mr. JACKSON. I attended Highland Park High School and then Southern Methodist University, where I studied for a business degree, and I did not finish. I lack about 8 hours of finishing, of getting a degree.

Mr. SPECTER. What year did you leave the university?

Mr. JACKSON. 1957.

Mr. SPECTER. How were you occupied between the time you left the university and the time you started to work for the newspaper?

Mr. JACKSON. I did some freelance photography work for a while, over a year, until I went into the service on the 6 month's plan through my National Guard unit, and I was a photographer there in the Army, on-the-job training, and then after I was released from the Army I did freelance work, I guess for about a year, until I got the job at the Herald.

Mr. SPECTER. How old are you at the present time?

Mr. JACKSON. Twenty-nine.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your marital status?

Mr. JACKSON. I am married.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have children?

Mr. JACKSON. One child. One girl 15 months today.

Mr. SPECTER. Going back to November 22, 1963, by whom were you employed at that time?

Mr. JACKSON. Dallas Times Herald.

Mr. SPECTER. What was your assignment on that specific day?

Mr. JACKSON. I was assigned to the motorcade to meet the President, Love Field, and go to the Trade Mart and that was the extent of it, cover the parade, I mean the motorcade and the speech.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you assigned to take pictures?

Mr. JACKSON. To take pictures, yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you meet the President at Love Field?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you take photographs for your newspaper at Love Field?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Describe briefly your activities at Love Field on the morning of November 22, please.

Mr. JACKSON. Well, we got there, I guess, 30, 40 minutes early.

Mr. SPECTER. At about what time would that have been?

Mr. JACKSON. I have to think to remember exactly what time, around 9, I guess, 9 to 9:15, I believe. And I took pictures there. There were other photographers from our paper there, our chief photographer. And we just took shots of the crowd, and waited for the President to arrive.

And then when he did arrive, our chief photographer left and went directly to the Trade Mart and I got into the motorcade to ride to town.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know exactly which car you were in in the motorcade?

Mr. JACKSON. We counted up, and it is either the seventh or eighth car. We said eighth car from the President, from the lead car.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say we counted up, whom do you mean?

Mr. JACKSON. The photographers in the car. As we left Love Field, we were trying to figure how far back we were and we all decided it was the eighth car.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you reconstruct that count for us which provided the basis for your conclusion that you were in the seventh or eighth car. For example, how many cars ahead of you was the President's car or the Vice President's car, if you can recollect, please.

Mr. JACKSON. Let me think a minute. I know there was a photographer's car directly in front of us which I believe had some of the local press. It was a convertible. Then in front were, I believe, two or three cars carrying the press, the White House press, and then President Johnson, I guess would be in the next car, and then the President in the lead car, or the next car, and I believe there was another car in the lead.

Mr. SPECTER. So as you recollect the scene there was the lead and immediately behind the lead car, whose car?

Mr. JACKSON. The President's, I believe.

Mr. SPECTER. And then immediately behind the President's whose car?

Mr. JACKSON. The Vice President's.

Mr. SPECTER. And immediately to the rear of the Vice President's car?

Mr. JACKSON. Press vehicles and I was told it was the White House press, two or three cars.

Mr. SPECTER. And then there was one car filled with photographers?

Mr. JACKSON. Directly in front of us.

Mr. SPECTER. Between your car and the cars which you believe to have been filled with White House newsmen?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Wasn't there a Secret Service car directly behind the President's car?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Between it and the Vice President's car?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir; that is right.

Mr. SPECTER. Wasn't there a Secret Service car immediately behind the Vice President's car, if you know?

Mr. JACKSON. There must have been. That is what I can't recall is which was which in there. I knew the White House press was in there but I didn't know how many cars. I am sure there were Secret Service cars, yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. As you were proceeding along in the motorcade, were you within sight of the President's automobile?

Mr. JACKSON. At times. When he was--when we could not get a clear view of it because of the photographers in the car ahead of us who were sitting up on the back of the seat just like we were, we did not have a clear view of the car at all times.

Mr. SPECTER. As you proceeded along approximately how far behind the President's car were you, expressed either in cars, block lengths or in any way that is convenient for you?

Mr. JACKSON. Well, I would say approximately a block, average city block, maybe closer at times.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Jackson, I show you a photograph which has been marked heretofore as Commission Exhibit No. 347, and ask you to look at it for a moment, and see if you can identify what that photograph depicts.

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir; this is the scene of the assassination, parade route, Main and Houston, left on Elm.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, which street did the Presidential motorcade take coming on to that scene which you have described as the assassination scene.

Mr. JACKSON. They were on Houston.

Mr. SPECTER. And before Houston what street were they on?

Mr. JACKSON. Main Street.

Mr. SPECTER. What direction were they proceeding on Main Street?

Mr. JACKSON. West.

Mr. SPECTER. Now without reference to the photograph, will you tell us what happened as the motorcade proceeded west on Main Street?

Mr. JACKSON. Well, on Main, as we neared Houston Street everyone was more or less in a relaxed state in our car, because we were near the end of the route, I guess, nothing unusual happened on Main Street.

The final block on Main, before we turned on Houston I was in the process of unloading a camera and I was to toss it out of the car as we turned right on Houston Street to one of our reporters.

Mr. SPECTER. Had that been set up by prearrangement?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir. And that I did as we turned the corner, and when--it was in an interval and as I threw it out the wind blew it, caught it and blew it out into the street and our reporter chased it out into the street and the photographers in our car, one of the photographers, was a TV cameraman whom I do not recall his name, and he was joking about the film being thrown out and he was shooting my picture of throwing the film out.

Mr. SPECTER. At this point could you tell us, to the best of your recollection, precisely who was with you in the car at that time?

Mr. JACKSON. Jim Underwood from KRLD-TV station, Tom Dillard, chief photographer for the Dallas Morning News, and me, and then two newsreel cameramen who I know by sight but I don't know their names.

One is with WFAA which is the Dallas Morning News station, and I believe the other was channel 11, I believe.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you position those people in the automobile for us with respect to where each was sitting?

(At this point Representative Ford entered the hearing room.)

Mr. JACKSON. Tom Dillard and Jim Underwood were in the front seat with the driver.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you identify who the driver was?

Mr. JACKSON. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. But he was a sixth individual separate and apart from the five heretofore described?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir. And in the back seat were the two I know by sight but I can't remember the names.

And I was on the right side of the car.

Mr. SPECTER. On the right side of which seat?

Mr. JACKSON. Back seat, sitting up on the back of a seat.

Mr. SPECTER. What kind of a car was it, sir?

Mr. JACKSON. I believe it was a Chevrolet convertible.

Mr. SPECTER. Top down?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you carrying one camera or more than one camera?

Mr. JACKSON. Two cameras.

Mr. SPECTER. And was one camera loaded at the time you rounded the corner of Main and Houston?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir; and one was empty.

Mr. SPECTER. Was it from the camera which was empty that you had taken the roll of film which you have just described?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. All right. Will you now proceed to tell us what happened as you rounded the corner of Main and Houston, please?

Mr. JACKSON. Well, as our reporter chased the film out into the street, we all looked back at him and were laughing, and it was approximately that time that we heard the first shot, and we had already rounded the corner, of course, when we heard the first shot. We were approximately almost half a block on Houston Street.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you identify for me on Commission Exhibit 347, precisely as possible, where your automobile was at the time you heard the first shot?

Mr. JACKSON. Approximately right here, I would say the midpoint of this building. Approximately where we heard the first report.