Part 21

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have a siren on your car?

Mr. GREER. I didn't have mine going. There is a siren on that car, but I didn't even reach down to work it.

Representative BOGGS. There was another agent in the car with you?

Mr. GREER. Mr. Kellerman; yes, sir.

Representative BOGGS. And after the first shot, did he say to speed up or what?

Mr. GREER. I believe it was at the second that he and I both simultaneously--he said, "Get out of here fast," and I speeded up as fast as I could then and as fast as the car would go.

The CHAIRMAN. If there are no further questions, thank you very much, Mr. Greer.

Mr. GREER. Thank you, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. You may be excused.

Mr. GREER. Thank you, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. We will take a short recess.

(Short recess.)

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Hill, come right in, sir. Would you raise your right hand, please, and be sworn? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. HILL. I do.

The CHAIRMAN. Would you be seated, please, Mr. Hill?

Mr. HILL. Thank you, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Specter.

TESTIMONY OF CLINTON J. HILL, SPECIAL AGENT, SECRET SERVICE

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Hill, would you state your full name for the record, please?

Mr. HILL. Clinton J. Hill.

Mr. SPECTER. How old are you, sir?

Mr. HILL. Thirty-two.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your educational background?

Mr. HILL. I went to secondary educational high school in Washburn, N. Dak., and then went on to Concordia College, Moorehead, Minn. I was a history and education major, with a minor in physical education.

Mr. SPECTER. What year were you graduated?

Mr. HILL. 1954.

Mr. SPECTER. What have you done since the time of graduation from college, Mr. Hill?

Mr. HILL. I went into the Army in 1954; remained in the Army until 1957. Then I couldn't determine what I wanted to do, whether to go to law school or not, and I took a couple of odd jobs. I worked for a finance company at one time. Then I went to work for the Chicago, Burlington & Quincy Railroad as a special agent in the spring of 1958, and entered the Secret Service in September 1958.

Mr. SPECTER. You have been with the Secret Service since September 1958 to the present time?

Mr. HILL. Yes; I have.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you outline for the Commission your duties with the Secret Service during your tenure there?

Mr. HILL. I entered the Secret Service in Denver, and during that period I did both investigative and protection work. I was assigned to Mrs. Doud, the mother-in-law of President Eisenhower. I attended the Treasury Law Enforcement School during my first year, and was sent to the White House for a 30-day temporary assignment at the White House in June 1959. In November of 1959, November 1, I was transferred to the White House on a permanent basis as a special agent assigned to the White House detail. I have been at the White House since that time.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, were you assigned to duties on the trip of President Kennedy to Texas in November 1963?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; I was.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any special duty assigned to you at that time?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. In connection with the trip?

Mr. HILL. I was responsible for the protection of Mrs. Kennedy.

Mr. SPECTER. And, in a general way, what does that sort of an assignment involve?

Mr. HILL. I tried to remain as close to her at all times as possible, and in this particular trip that meant being with the President because all of their doings on this trip were together rather than separate. I would go over her schedule to make sure she knows what she is expected to do; discuss it with her; remain in her general area all the time; protect her from any danger.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you tell us, in a general way, what were the activities of the President and Mrs. Kennedy on the morning of Friday, November 22, before they arrived in Dallas?

Mr. HILL. I went to the fifth floor, I believe it was, where the President and Mrs. Kennedy were staying in the Texas Hotel in Fort Worth at 8:15 in the morning. President Kennedy was to go downstairs and across the street to make a speech to a gathering in a parking lot. I remained on the floor during the period the President was gone.

It was raining outside, I recall. About 9:25 I received word from Special Agent Duncan that the President requested Mrs. Kennedy to come to the mezzanine, where a breakfast was being held in his honor, and where he was about to speak. I went in and advised Mrs. Kennedy of this, and took her down to where the President was speaking; remained with her adjacent to the head table in this particular area during the speech; and accompanied she and the President back up to the, I believe it was, the fifth floor of the hotel, their residential area; remained on that floor until we left, went downstairs, got into the motorcade, and departed the hotel for the airport to leave Fort Worth for Dallas.

We were airborne approximately 11:20, I believe, in Air Force 1. I was in the aft compartment, which is part of the residential compartment, and we arrived in Dallas at 11:40.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe, in a general way, what the President and Mrs. Kennedy did upon arrival in Dallas?

Mr. HILL. They debarked the rear ramp of the aircraft first, followed by Governor and Mrs. Connally, various Congressmen and Senators. And Special Agent in Charge Kellerman and myself went down the ramp. There was a small reception committee at the foot of the ramp, and somebody gave Mrs. Kennedy some red roses, I recall. I walked immediately to the followup car and placed my topcoat, which is a raincoat, and small envelope containing some information concerning the Dallas stop in the followup car, returning to where the President and Mrs. Kennedy were at that time greeting a crippled lady in a wheelchair.

Mr. SPECTER. What do you estimate the size of the crowd to have been at Dallas that morning?

Mr. HILL. At the airport?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. HILL. It is rather difficult to say. They were behind a chain-link fence, not on the airport ramp itself, and they were jammed up against the fence holding placards, and many young people in the crowd. I would say there were probably 2,000 people there.

Mr. SPECTER. At approximately what time did the motorcade depart from Love Field to Dallas?

Mr. HILL. Approximately 11:55.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know approximately how many automobiles there were in the motorcade?

Mr. HILL. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. SPECTER. In which car in the motorcade were you positioned?

Mr. HILL. I was working the followup car, which is the car immediately behind the Presidential car.

Mr. SPECTER. And how many cars are there ahead of the followup car, then, in the entire motorcade?

Mr. HILL. There was a lead car ahead of the President's car, the President's car, then this particular followup car.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether there was any car in advance of the car termed the lead car?

Mr. HILL. There could have been a pilot car, but I am not sure.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, approximately how far in front of the President's car did the lead car stay during the course of the motorcade?

Mr. HILL. I would say a half block, maybe.

Mr. SPECTER. And how far was the President's car in front of the President's followup car during the course of the motorcade?

Mr. HILL. Approximately 5 feet.

Mr. SPECTER. Is there some well-established practice as to the spacing between the President's car and the President's followup car?

Mr. HILL. It would depend upon speed. We attempt to stay as close to the President's car as practical. At high rates of speed it is rather difficult to stay close because of the danger involved. Slow speeds, the followup car stays as close as possible so that the agents on the followup car can get to the Presidential car as quickly as possible.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the first car to the rear of the President's followup car?

Mr. HILL. The Vice-Presidential automobile.

Mr. SPECTER. What car was immediately behind the Vice President's automobile?

Mr. HILL. The Vice-Presidential followup car.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what cars in the Dallas motorcade followed the Vice President's followup car?

Mr. HILL. Well, I couldn't say which car any individual rode in after that particular automobile, but I could say they were occupied by members of the staff, both President Kennedy's and Vice President Johnson's; Congressmen and Senators who were on this particular trip; newspaper personnel who were on this trip.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you identify the occupants of the President's followup car and indicate where each was in the automobile.

Mr. HILL. The car itself was driven by Special Agent Sam Kinney, and Assistant to the Special Agent in Charge Emory Roberts was riding in the right front seat. I was assigned to work the left running board of the automobile, the forward portion of that running board. McIntyre was assigned to work the rear portion of the left running board. Special Agent John Ready was assigned the forward portion of the right running board; Special Agent Paul Landis was assigned the rear portion of the right running board. There were two jump seats, and they were occupied by two Presidential aides, Mr. O'Donnell and Mr. Powers. Mr. Powers was sitting on the right-hand side; Mr. O'Donnell on the left. The rear seat was occupied, left rear by Special Agent Hickey, right rear, Special Agent Bennett.

Mr. SPECTER. How were the agents armed at that time?

Mr. HILL. All the agents were armed with their hand weapons.

Mr. SPECTER. And is there any weapon in the automobile in addition to the hand weapons?

Mr. HILL. Yes. There is an AR-15, which is an automatic rifle, and a shotgun.

Mr. SPECTER. And where is the AR-15 kept?

Mr. HILL. Between the two agents in the rear seat.

Mr. SPECTER. How about the shotgun; where is that kept?

Mr. HILL. In a compartment immediately in front of the jump seats.

Mr. SPECTER. Is the President's followup car a specially constructed automobile?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; it is.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is the make and model and general description of that vehicle?

Mr. HILL. It is a 1955 Cadillac, nine-passenger touring sedan. It is a convertible type.

Mr. SPECTER. Was that automobile flown in specially from Washington for the occasion?

Mr. HILL. Yes; it was, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know how that automobile was transported to Dallas, Tex.?

Mr. HILL. Generally, it is flown in a C-130 by the Air Force. I am not sure how on this particular occasion.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe, in a general way, the composition of the crowds en route from Love Field down to the center of Dallas, please?

Mr. HILL. Well, when we left Love Field, we went away from the crowd to get to the exit point at Love Field, and there were no crowds at all, and then we, departing Love Field, found the crowds were sporadic. There were people here and there. Some places they had built up and other places they were thinned out. The speed of the motorcade was adjusted accordingly. Whenever there were large groups of people, the motorcade slowed down to give the people an opportunity to view the President. When there were not many people along the side of the street, we speeded up. We didn't really hit the crowds until we hit Main Street.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of the maximum speed of the automobile from the time you left Love Field until the time you arrived at downtown Dallas?

Mr. HILL. I would say we never ran any faster than 25 to 30 miles per hour.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of the minimum speed during this same interval?

Mr. HILL. Twelve to fifteen miles per hour. We did stop.

Mr. SPECTER. On what occasion did you stop?

Mr. HILL. Between Love Field and Main Street, downtown Dallas, on the right-hand side of the street there were a group of people with a long banner which said, "Please, Mr. President, stop and shake our hands." And the President requested the motorcade to stop, and he beckoned to the people and asked them to come and shake his hand, which they did.

Mr. SPECTER. Did the President disembark from his automobile at that time?

Mr. HILL. No; he remained in his seat.

Mr. SPECTER. At that time what action, if any, did you take?

Mr. HILL. I jumped from the followup car and ran up to the left rear portion of the automobile with my back toward Mrs. Kennedy viewing those persons on the left-hand side of the street.

Mr. SPECTER. What action was taken by any other Secret Service agent which you observed at that time?

Mr. HILL. Special Agent Ready, who was working the forward portion of the right running board, did the same thing, only on the President's side, placed his back toward the car, and viewed the people facing the President. Assistant in Charge Kellerman opened the door of the President's car and stepped out on the street.

Mr. SPECTER. What action was taken by Special Agent McIntyre, if you know?

Mr. HILL. I do not know.

Mr. SPECTER. How about Special Agent Landis?

Mr. HILL. I do not know.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your normal procedure for action in the event the President's car is stopped, as it did in that event?

Mr. HILL. Special Agent McIntyre would normally jump off the car and run to the forward portion of the left-hand side of the car; Special Agent Landis would move to the right-hand forward portion of the automobile.

Mr. SPECTER. Did anything else which was unusual occur en route from Love Field to the downtown area of Dallas?

Mr. HILL. Before we hit Main Street?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. HILL. Not that I recall.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any occasion to leave the President's followup car at any time?

Mr. HILL. When we finally did reach Main Street, the crowds had built up to a point where they were surging into the street. We had motorcycles running adjacent to both the Presidential automobile and the followup car, as well as in front of the Presidential automobile, and because of the crowds in the street, the President's driver, Special Agent Greer, was running the car more to the left-hand side of the street more than he was to the right to keep the President as far away from the crowd as possible, and because of this the motorcycles on the left-hand side could not get past the crowd and alongside the car, and they were forced to drop back. I jumped from the followup car, ran up and got on top of the rear portion of the Presidential automobile to be close to Mrs. Kennedy in the event that someone attempted to grab her from the crowd or throw something in the car.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say the rear portion of the automobile, can you, by referring to Commission Exhibit No. 345, heretofore identified as the President's automobile, specify by penciled "X" where you stood?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir [indicating].

Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe for the record just what area it is back there on which you stood?

Mr. HILL. That is a step built into the rear bumper of the automobile, and on top of the rear trunk there is a handguard which you grab for and hang onto when you are standing up.

Mr. SPECTER. Are identical objects of those descriptions existing on each side of the President's car?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; they do.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any other occasion en route from Love Field to downtown Dallas to leave the followup car and mount that portion of the President's car?

Mr. HILL. I did the same thing approximately four times.

Mr. SPECTER. What are the standard regulations and practices, if any, governing such an action on your part?

Mr. HILL. It is left to the agent's discretion more or less to move to that particular position when he feels that there is a danger to the President; to place himself as close to the President or the First Lady as my case was, as possible, which I did.

Mr. SPECTER. Are those practices specified in any written documents of the Secret Service?

Mr. HILL. No; they are not.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, had there been any instruction or comment about your performance of that type of a duty with respect to anything that President Kennedy himself had said in the period immediately preceding the trip to Texas?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; there was. The preceding Monday, the President was on a trip in Tampa, Fla., and he requested that the agents not ride on either of those two steps.

Mr. SPECTER. And to whom did the President make that request?

Mr. HILL. Assistant Special Agent in Charge Boring.

Mr. SPECTER. Was Assistant Special Agent in Charge Boring the individual in charge of that trip to Florida?

Mr. HILL. He was riding in the Presidential automobile on that trip in Florida, and I presume that he was. I was not along.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, on that occasion would he have been in a position comparable to that occupied by Special Agent Kellerman on this trip to Texas?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; the same position.

Mr. SPECTER. And Special Agent Boring informed you of that instruction by President Kennedy?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; he did.

Mr. SPECTER. Did he make it a point to inform other special agents of that same instruction?

Mr. HILL. I believe that he did, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And, as a result of what President Kennedy said to him, did he instruct you to observe that Presidential admonition?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. How, if at all, did that instruction of President Kennedy affect your action and--your action in safeguarding him on this trip to Dallas?

Mr. HILL. We did not ride on the rear portions of the automobile. I did on those four occasions because the motorcycles had to drop back and there was no protection on the left-hand side of the car.

Mr. SPECTER. When the President's automobile was proceeding in downtown Dallas, what was the ordinary speed of the automobile, based on your best estimate?

Mr. HILL. We were running approximately 12 to 15 miles per hour, I would say.

Mr. SPECTER. I show you a document which we have marked as Commission Exhibit No. 354, which is an aerial photograph identical with the photograph already marked as Commission Exhibit No. 347.

(The photograph referred to was marked Exhibit No. 354 for identification.)

Mr. SPECTER. I ask you if, referring only to Exhibit 354, you are able to identify what that scene is.

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; I am.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to indicate the route which the President's motorcade followed through that area?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; I am.

Mr. SPECTER. And what does that scene depict--what city is it?

Mr. HILL. That is Dallas, Tex. It shows Main Street, Houston Street, and Elm Street.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you write on the picture itself where Main Street is? Would you now write, as best you can, which street is Houston Street?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And would you now write which street is Elm?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir.

(At this point, Representative Ford entered the hearing room.)

Mr. SPECTER. Now, would you indicate, if you know, which is a generally northerly direction on that picture?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. All right. What was the condition of the crowd as the motorcade made a right-hand turn off of Main Street onto Houston?

Mr. HILL. The crowd was very large on Main Street, and it was thinning down considerably when we reached the end of it, and turned right on Houston Street. Noticeably on my side of the car, which was the left-hand side of the street.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is your best estimate as to the speed of the President's car at the time it made the right-hand turn onto Houston Street?

Mr. HILL. In the curve?

Mr. SPECTER. The speed--in the curve itself; yes.

Mr. HILL. We were running generally 12 to 15 miles per hour. I would say that in the curve we perhaps slowed to maybe 10 miles per hour.

Mr. SPECTER. And how far behind the President's car was the Presidential followup car as the turn was made onto Houston Street?

Mr. HILL. Four to five feet, at the most.

Mr. SPECTER. I show you a photograph of a building which has already been marked as Commission Exhibit No. 348, and ask you if at this time you can identify what that building is.

Mr. HILL. I believe I can, sir; yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And what building is it?

Mr. HILL. It is the Texas School Book Depository.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, does that building appear on the Commission Exhibit No. 354?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; it does.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any occasion to notice the Texas School Book Depository Building as you proceeded in a generally northerly direction on Houston Street?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir. It was immediately in front of us and to our left.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you notice anything unusual about it?

Mr. HILL. Nothing more unusual than any other building along the way.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your general practice, if any, in observing such buildings along the route of a Presidential motorcade?

Mr. HILL. We scan the buildings and look specifically for open windows, for people hanging out, and there had been, on almost every building along the way, people hanging out, windows open.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you observe, as you recollect at this moment, any open windows in the Texas School Depository Building?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; there were.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to recollect specifically which windows were open at this time?

Mr. HILL. No, sir; I cannot.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the condition of the crowd along the streets, if any, along Elm Street, in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. HILL. On the left-hand side of the street, which is the side I was on, the crowd was very thin. And it was a general park area. There were people scattered throughout the entire park.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, what is your best estimate of the speed of the President's automobile as it turned left off of Houston onto Elm Street?

Mr. HILL. We were running still 12 to 15 miles per hour, but in the curve I believe we slowed down maybe to 10, maybe to 9.

Mr. SPECTER. How far back of the President's automobile was the Presidential followup car when the President's followup car had just straightened out on Elm Street?

Mr. HILL. Approximately 5 feet.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, as the motorcade proceeded at that point, tell us what happened.

Mr. HILL. Well, as we came out of the curve, and began to straighten up, I was viewing the area which looked to be a park. There were people scattered throughout the entire park. And I heard a noise from my right rear, which to me seemed to be a firecracker. I immediately looked to my right, and, in so doing, my eyes had to cross the Presidential limousine and I saw President Kennedy grab at himself and lurch forward and to the left.

Mr. SPECTER. Why don't you just proceed, in narrative form, to tell us?

Representative BOGGS. This was the first shot?

Mr. HILL. This is the first sound that I heard; yes, sir. I jumped from the car, realizing that something was wrong, ran to the Presidential limousine. Just about as I reached it, there was another sound, which was different than the first sound. I think I described it in my statement as though someone was shooting a revolver into a hard object--it seemed to have some type of an echo. I put my right foot, I believe it was, on the left rear step of the automobile, and I had a hold of the handgrip with my hand, when the car lurched forward. I lost my footing and I had to run about three or four more steps before I could get back up in the car.

Between the time I originally grabbed the handhold and until I was up on the car, Mrs. Kennedy--the second noise that I heard had removed a portion of the President's head, and he had slumped noticeably to his left. Mrs. Kennedy had jumped up from the seat and was, it appeared to me, reaching for something coming off the right rear bumper of the car, the right rear tail, when she noticed that I was trying to climb on the car. She turned toward me and I grabbed her and put her back in the back seat, crawled up on top of the back seat and lay there.