Part 20

Mr. GREER. When I pulled into the ambulance entrance there were some people there on the right-hand side with these stretchers that they had rushed out. I don't know just who they were from the hospital staff. There was a great deal of confusion because everyone was trying to help, the agents were there.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to state whether there was a doctor in attendance at that time?

Mr. GREER. No, sir; I couldn't state that.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you do after your arrival at Parkland Hospital?

Mr. GREER. I helped pull it, take the stretcher into the emergency room that he was on. It is on wheels, and I helped to take that in, and I stayed inside the door of the emergency room most of the time while they were, the doctors were, working on the President's body.

Mr. SPECTER. How many doctors were working on him in the emergency room?

Mr. GREER. There were, between nurses and doctors. I would estimate there were, between 10 or 12 people, maybe not that many, 8 to 10 people in and out of that room. I don't know how many of them were doctors, attendants, nurses, and things like that with white jackets and they would come in and say, "I am doctor so-and-so."

Mr. SPECTER. How long were they working on him there in the emergency room?

Mr. GREER. I couldn't remember the time.

Mr. SPECTER. You say you were with him most of the time?

Mr. GREER. I was inside the door. I know, I kept the door closed most of the time, let doctors and nurses in and out while he was--while they were working on him. I stayed inside the emergency room door.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any special reason for you to leave part of the time?

Mr. GREER. No, sir; I didn't go any farther away than outside the door.

Mr. SPECTER. Were there any other Secret Service agents inside the emergency room at that time?

Mr. GREER. Not at that time; I was inside the door.

Mr. SPECTER. Where was Mrs. Kennedy at this time?

Mr. GREER. Mrs. Kennedy was outside the door. They got her a chair out there for a little while and then she insisted on coming in and she got in the corner for a little while there and stayed there a little while and I don't quite remember the time she went over to his body but she did go over there, and I don't remember how far along the doctors had been on him when that happened.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to overhear any of the conversations among the doctors in the emergency room?

Mr. GREER. I don't understand anything that they were discussing at all.

Mr. SPECTER. Did a priest or more than one priest come upon the scene?

Mr. GREER. I believe there were two. To the best of my recollection there eventually was two.

Mr. SPECTER. How long after President Kennedy arrived at the emergency room did the priest arrive, if you recollect?

Mr. GREER. No, sir; I wouldn't have any idea, it seemed to me it was quite a little while in the matter, probably minutes.

Mr. SPECTER. Approximately how long did the priests stay?

Mr. GREER. I don't remember that, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did they say anything on leaving or in entering?

Mr. GREER. Not that I heard of personally. I was outside the room when the priest was in there. I wasn't in the emergency room while he was in.

Mr. SPECTER. When did you find that the President had died?

Mr. GREER. When the priest was in to give him the last rites then I knew that.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any reasonably close estimate on when the President did die?

Mr. GREER. No, sir; I haven't right off. I would have to look at some reports.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you do after the President was pronounced dead?

Mr. GREER. We stayed there until everything was settled up. I believe there was a judge came in there and I think, someone came in and made the decisions on removing the body and the casket was brought in, and the body was put in the casket. I had this, his clothing, I kept it in my hand at all times, all the time. Then I went, when they removed the casket from the emergency room, I was in front of it going out to make a path to get it to the ambulance.

So, I helped get it into the ambulance and then I drove a car with some agents and some people right behind the ambulance to Love Field back to the airport again and helped to get the casket aboard the airplane.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you present at the swearing in of President Johnson?

Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; I was--we were all asked to come back into the state room but I wasn't in too close. I was in the main part of the plane, as close as I could get to it, yes.

Mr. SPECTER. How did you personally return to Washington, D.C.?

Mr. GREER. I returned on Air Force 1 with the President's remains.

Mr. SPECTER. And at approximately what time did you leave Dallas to fly back?

Mr. GREER. I would have to look in my reports to say exactly. I would have to go back on the times. Two something but I don't remember.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any idea of the time you arrived in the Washington area?

Mr. GREER. I believe it was 6 or 6:15. As I say I have it in my reports but I haven't looked at the times recently.

Mr. SPECTER. Where did you arrive in the Washington area?

Mr. GREER. At Andrews Air Force Base.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you do next in connection with this matter?

Mr. GREER. I helped to get the casket out of the plane, and put it into a Navy ambulance and then I drove that Navy ambulance to Bethesda Naval Center.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you do upon arriving at the Bethesda Naval Center?

Mr. GREER. I stayed in, while the autopsy was being performed, I stayed in the autopsy room with Mr. Kellerman and the doctors and the people who were in there. I stayed in there and observed what was necessary that I could do.

Mr. SPECTER. Were any Secret Service Agents present besides you and Mr. Kellerman?

Mr. GREER. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. At the autopsy?

Mr. GREER. There may have been, Mr. Hill may have come in and out but he didn't stay there. Mr. Kellerman and I stayed permanently the whole time there. There may have been, Mr. Hill may have come in there and have gone back out but he didn't stay in there.

Mr. SPECTER. During the course of the autopsy did you hear any doctor say anything about the wound on the right side of Mr. Kennedy's back?

Mr. GREER. That was the first time that I had ever seen it, when the doctors were performing the autopsy, they saw this hole in the right shoulder or back of the head, and in the back, and that was the first I had known that he was ever shot there, and they brought it to our attention or discussed it there a little bit.

Mr. SPECTER. What conversation was there concerning the wound on the right back?

Mr. GREER. Well, the doctors and people who were performing the autopsy, when they turned the body apparently over they discovered that this wound was in the back, and they thought that they probably could get a bullet out of there, and it took a lot of--then they took more X-rays, they took a lot of X-rays, we looked at them and couldn't find the trace of any bullet anywhere in the X-rays at all, nothing showed on the X-rays where this bullet or lead could have gone.

Mr. SPECTER. Approximately where in the President's back was the bullet hole?

Mr. GREER. It was, to the best of my recollection it was, back here, just in the soft part of that shoulder.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the upper right shoulder area?

Mr. GREER. Upper right, yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any effort made to probe that wound by any doctor?

Mr. GREER. I believe, yes, I believe the doctors probed to see if they could find that there was a bullet there.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know which doctor that was?

Mr. GREER. No, sir; I don't, I don't have their names at this time.

Mr. SPECTER. Did any doctor make any statement about the results of his probing effort?

Mr. GREER. I questioned one of the doctors in there about that, and when we found out that they had found a bullet in Dallas, I questioned the doctor about it and he said if they were using pressure on the chest that it could very well have been, come back out, where it went in at, that is what they said at the time.

(At this point, Representative Ford entered the hearing room.)

Mr. SPECTER. Was anything said about any channel being present in the body for the bullet to have gone on through the back?

Mr. GREER. No, sir; I hadn't heard anything like that, any trace of it going on through.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you just mention, Mr. Greer, a hole in the President's head in addition to the large area of the skull which was shot away?

Mr. GREER. No. I had just seen that, you know, the head was damaged in all this part of it but I believe looking at the X-rays, I looked at the X-rays when they were taken in the autopsy room, and the person who does that type work showed us the trace of it because there would be little specks of lead where the bullet had come from here and it came to the--they showed where it didn't come on through. It came to a sinus cavity or something they said, over the eye.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the right eye.

Mr. GREER. I may be wrong.

Mr. SPECTER. You don't know which eye?

Mr. GREER. I don't know which eye, I may be wrong. But they showed us the trace of it coming through but there were very little small specks on the X-rays that these professionals knew what course that the bullet had taken, the lead.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe in very general terms what injury you observed as to the President's head during the course of the autopsy?

Mr. GREER. I would--to the best of my recollection it was in this part of the head right here.

Mr. SPECTER. Upper right?

Mr. GREER. Upper right side.

Mr. SPECTER. Upper right side, going toward the rear.

And what was the condition of the skull at that point?

Mr. GREER. The skull was completely--this part was completely gone.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, aside from that opening which you have described and you have indicated a circle with a diameter of approximately 5 inches, would you say that is about what you have indicated there?

Mr. GREER. Approximately I would say 5 inches; yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any other opening or hole of any sort in the head itself?

Mr. GREER. No, sir; I didn't. No other one.

Mr. SPECTER. Specifically did you observe a hole which would be below the large area of skull which was absent?

Mr. GREER. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to look in the back of the head immediately below where the skull was missing?

Mr. GREER. No; I can't remember even examining the head that close at that time.

Mr. SPECTER. When President Kennedy was being treated in the emergency room at Parkland Hospital, were any pictures or X-rays taken of him there?

Mr. GREER. No, sir; not that I know of. I didn't see any being taken.

Mr. SPECTER. Was he ever turned over that you observed while being treated at Parkland Hospital?

Mr. GREER. No, sir. I can't recollect him ever being turned over.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any recollection that he was in fact not turned over?

Mr. GREER. No, sir; I couldn't even say. I didn't see them turn him over in any way in my vision, although my back was to him quite often and because I was attending to the door and they could have done it.

Mr. SPECTER. Was he on a stretcher at the time he was being worked on at Parkland Hospital?

Mr. GREER. I can't remember whether they changed him from a stretcher to a table. I am not sure on that.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Greer, as to the return of the President's automobile to Washington, do you know how that was accomplished?

Mr. GREER. It was driven to Love Field, and put aboard the same C-130 it was taken out on and flown back to Andrews Air Force Base.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know when it was returned from Dallas to the Washington area?

Mr. GREER. I believe it was returned shortly after, it left shortly after, the President's plane left, was flown back.

Mr. SPECTER. I hand you two photographs marked Commission Exhibit No. 352 and Commission Exhibit No. 353.

Do those photographs represent the condition of the back seat of the President's car at some time?

Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; they do.

Mr. SPECTER. And at what time do those pictures look just as the back seat of the President's car looked?

Mr. GREER. It looked like that when it came back from Dallas.

Mr. SPECTER. Did it look like that immediately after President Kennedy was removed from the back seat?

Mr. GREER. I wasn't there any more, sir. I was with the President after they lifted him out. I didn't see the car after he had been removed.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe the back seat of the car at any time from the time you arrived at Parkland Hospital until you observed the automobile in Washington?

Mr. GREER. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. On November 23?

Mr. GREER. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. SPECTER. By the way, Mr. Greer, how much, approximately, does or did the President's automobile weigh?

Mr. GREER. It weighed between--well, for flight reason we said 8,000, but it wasn't that much. It probably was 7,500. We had extra weight on it.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to tell the Commission the dimensions of the automobile, indicating its length?

Mr. GREER. Yes, sir. It is 21 feet 8 inches long.

Mr. SPECTER. And how wide?

Mr. GREER. I would have to go back for the width on it. I have it all in black and white in the office, but I haven't got it with me in my head right now; I am sorry.

Mr. SPECTER. Could three people sit comfortably in the front seat of the automobile?

Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; it was wide enough for three. We many times had an aide in there; many times, an aide rode in the front.

Mr. SPECTER. Was it as wide or wider than, say, a Cadillac automobile?

Mr. GREER. No, sir; it would be probably the same width.

Representative BOGGS. Was that car specially made for the President?

Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; it was a specially built car.

Representative BOGGS. Was it a Lincoln Continental?

Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; a Lincoln Continental.

Representative BOGGS. How did it differ from the ordinary Lincoln?

Mr. GREER. Well, Lincoln doesn't make a seven-passenger car, and this was a seven-passenger car. The back seat on this car would raise 8 inches. It was electric, and you could lift, you could raise, the seat up 8 inches from the ground, from the floorboards. It had a little step that went with it. The President could raise it up and down himself. He had a button alongside that would cause it to go up and down when the top wasn't down. It wouldn't go up and down when the top was down. But when it was off he could raise it up or down, and it would be above the other seat.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether the seat was actually raised at the time of the assassination?

Mr. GREER. No, sir; I couldn't say right off. I don't believe it was, but I wouldn't know.

Mr. SPECTER. Going back to the shots themselves, Mr. Greer, do you have any reaction as to the direction from which the shots came?

Mr. GREER. They sounded like they were behind me, to the right rear of me.

Mr. SPECTER. Would that be as to all three shots?

Mr. GREER. Yes, sir. They sounded, everything sounded, behind me, to me. That was my thought, train of thought, that they were behind me.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever had any reaction or thought at any time since the assassination that the shots came from the front of the car?

Mr. GREER. No, sir; I had never even the least thought that they could come. There was no thought in my mind other than that they were behind me.

Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Congressman Boggs, are there any questions you would like to ask the agent?

Representative BOGGS. I don't think so, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Congressman Ford.

Representative FORD. Did you ever have any thought there were more than three shots?

Mr. GREER. No, sir; I never did.

Representative FORD. Did you positively identify the fact that there were one, two, three, or was there one, and then a delay, and then a flurry?

Mr. GREER. To the best of my recollection, Congressman, was that the last two were closer together than the first one. It seemed like the first one, and then there was, you know, bang, bang, just right behind it almost. The two seemed, the last two seemed, closer to me than the other.

Representative BOGGS. Did you speed up after you heard the first shot?

Mr. GREER. After I heard the second. The first one didn't sink into me, didn't give me the thought that it was a shot. I thought it was the backfire of a motorcycle. But when I heard the second one and glanced over my shoulder, I knew something was wrong then. I didn't know how bad anyone was injured or anything, but I knew there was something wrong, and right away after the second one I accelerated as fast as I could.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Craig, would you like to ask any questions?

Mr. CRAIG. Thank you, Mr. Chief Justice.

With respect to the position of the President's car that you were driving as it approached the underpass, you state now that you couldn't fix any specific distance. But would you say it was less than a mile that the President's car was from the overpass?

Mr. GREER. Oh, definitely. I couldn't say in feet or yards, but it was within--it was feet. I would say probably a hundred or 200 feet. It could be within that; it was definitely right up close to me, but I----

Mr. CRAIG. With respect to your vision, was it unobstructed down the roadway, looking at the overpass?

Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; there were no obstructions in the road that I could see.

Mr. CRAIG. As I recall your testimony, you were actually observing the overpass to see if there was any person there.

Mr. GREER. People up there at that time I would be doubtful of going underneath.

Mr. CRAIG. Yes, sir. And you say now you do not recollect that you saw anyone there?

Mr. GREER. Yes, sir.

Mr. CRAIG. You said also, I believe, that it was some time now since you made that observation. Did you make any report of any kind with respect to anyone being on the overpass immediately after this incident?

Mr. GREER. No, sir.

Mr. CRAIG. You made no written report to anybody as to whether or not there were people on the overpass or were not people?

Mr. GREER. No, sir; I haven't.

Mr. CRAIG. Do you believe if you had observed people on the overpass at that time you would now remember it?

Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; I believe I would; yes, sir.

Mr. CRAIG. If you had observed people on the overpass as you proceeded toward it, and they were other than a policeman or policemen or some other law-enforcement agent, what would you have done?

Mr. GREER. Well, I try never to go underneath a bridge if there are people up over it, if there are people who I don't know as law enforcement. I try not to go underneath them. I will probably veer to one side of them at any time. That is a matter of our training, that we try not to go underneath anyone with an open car where anyone could drop something.

Mr. CRAIG. Would you ever stop, if necessary, if you thought there were people up there that you couldn't veer around?

Mr. GREER. If there was any danger there I would have to either change my way of traveling. I have never had it happen, and never had any reason to, but we try, I try, not to go underneath a group of people standing on any overpass at any time. I try to move over, if the condition permits me to. Sometimes, when the road is too narrow, I couldn't. But that is part of our procedure, I think, to see that no one is on an overpass.

Mr. CRAIG. That is all.

The CHAIRMAN. If there are no further questions----

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chief Justice, may I ask one or two other questions?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. I have just noted that we have the report of the FBI which bears Bureau file No. 105-S, as it appears here somewhat indistinct, S-2555, "Report of Special Agent Robert P. Gemberling, dated December 10, 1963," and this refers, Mr. Greer, to an interview of you by Special Agents Francis X. O'Neill, Jr., and James W. Sibert. There is a report here of an interview of you and of Special Agent Kellerman, and the date here is listed as November 22, 1963, and there is this reference made in the report, and I will quote it verbatim:

"Greer stated that he first heard what he thought was possibly a motorcycle backfire, and glanced around and noticed that the President had evidently been hit. He thereafter got on the radio and communicated with the other vehicles stating that they desired to get the President to the hospital immediately."

Mr. GREER. I didn't go on the radio. It was Mr. Kellerman who done the radio talking. I didn't. It is a misquote if I done it. I didn't get on the radio. Mr. Kellerman did.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever make this statement, Mr. Greer, to Special Agent O'Neill or Sibert?

Mr. GREER. Those two agents were in during the autopsy; those two agents were in the autopsy room, with Mr. Kellerman and I, all night. Mr. Sibert and O'Neill were both in the autopsy room with us during that time, and the only time that any of us, either Mr. Kellerman or I, we never left the room, one or the other. We went and got some coffee and came right back, something like that, and the FBI did the same thing. One of them left; the other stayed.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you now recollect whether or not you ever said to them that you were the one who communicated on the radio with the other vehicles?

Mr. GREER. No, sir; I know I never remember saying that to them because I know I didn't do it. So that is how I know that I didn't say it, because I know I didn't do it. Mr. Kellerman did.

Mr. SPECTER. And the first part refers to your noticing that the President evidently had been hit. Did you ever----

Mr. GREER. I have no recollection of ever telling the agents that I said that; no, sir. If I said it, I don't remember saying it. The Governor was the person that I knew was--when we were first in trouble, when I see the Governor.

Mr. SPECTER. To the best of your current recollection, did you notice that the President had been hit?

Mr. GREER. No, sir; I didn't know how badly he was injured or anything other than that. I didn't know.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you know at all, from the glance which you have described that he had been hit or injured in any way?

Mr. GREER. I knew he was injured in some way, but I didn't know how bad or what.

Mr. SPECTER. How did you know that?

Mr. GREER. If I remember now, I just don't remember how I knew, but I knew we were in trouble. I knew that he was injured, but I can't remember, recollect, just how I knew there were injuries in there. I didn't know who all was hurt, even.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to recollect whether you saw the President after the shots as you were proceeding toward Parkland Hospital?

Mr. GREER. No; I don't remember ever seeing him any more until I got to the hospital, and he was lying across the seat, you know, and that is the first I had seen of him.

Mr. SPECTER. Your best recollection is, then, that you had the impression he was injured but you couldn't ascertain the source of that information?

Mr. GREER. Right. I couldn't ascertain the source.

Representative FORD. Did you hear the President say anything after the first shot?

Mr. GREER. No, sir; I never heard him say anything; never at any time did I ever hear him say anything.

Representative BOGGS. Did Mrs. Kennedy say anything to you while you were driving to the hospital?

Mr. GREER. No, sir; she didn't.

Representative BOGGS. Did Mrs. Connally say anything to you?

Mr. GREER. No. Mrs. Connally didn't say anything, either. There is quite a little distance between the front and the back seat of that car. As you know, it is 21 feet long, and you are quite a little bit away, and there was the sirens were all going. The following car had a siren wide--the big one on the fender was wide open. There wasn't much chance for me to hear anything, and I was really occupied with getting there just as fast as I could and not seeing that anything happened, avoid an accident or anything like that.