Part 2

Mr. REDLICH. Where did you read this report or where did you hear about it?

Mr. MARTIN. It was right after the start there, in the Dallas papers.

Mr. REDLICH. This was something you read. This was not a personal conversation you had with the owner of the rifle range?

Mr. MARTIN. No, it was a newspaper account.

Mr. REDLICH. Were there any other conversations you had with Mrs. Oswald concerning rifle practice?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Did you have any conversations with her concerning Lee Oswald's ability as a rifleman?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Did Mrs. Oswald ever discuss with you the fears that she claims to have had that Lee Oswald would attempt to kill a public figure as a result specifically of the Walker incident?

Mr. MARTIN. No, other than when she told me that she told him that if he tried anything similar to the Walker incident she would have him arrested. And she never mentioned to me a particular figure that he would do anything like that. She evidently had it though or she wouldn't have made the threat to him.

Mr. REDLICH. Other than the Nixon incident, and the Walker incident, Mrs. Oswald never related to you any other specific incident with regard to the attempt to take the life of anyone?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Representative FORD. Did Mrs. Oswald, Marina, ever indicate to you her feeling toward guns; did she ever indicate any apprehension about having one in the house?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Representative FORD. Related to rifles, pistols?

Mr. MARTIN. I have a 22 rifle in the house, for instance. Of course, she may never have seen it. But I don't believe the question ever came up at all.

Representative FORD. She never indicated to you that she had told Lee Harvey Oswald that she was apprehensive about his use of a gun or his having a gun in the household?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, I would like to ask you whether Mrs. Oswald ever discussed with you any aspects of the life of Marina Oswald and Lee Harvey Oswald while they were in Russia.

Mr. MARTIN. Let's see now--she mentioned one time to both my wife and I that Lee had gone to Moscow, I believe, and an old boy friend called her up and she went out with him while Lee was gone.

Mr. REDLICH. Did she indicate to you at that time the purpose of Lee's trip to Moscow?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Did she indicate to you whether she had told Lee about her going out with this old boy friend?

Mr. MARTIN. She said she did tell him.

Mr. REDLICH. By the way, would you recall when Lee made this trip to Moscow?

Mr. MARTIN. No, I don't think she mentioned the date at all. She may have but I don't recall.

Mr. REDLICH. Did she indicate in connection with this trip of Lee Oswald to Moscow that she herself subsequently went to Moscow while he was there?

Mr. MARTIN. No. I think she said he was gone one day or one night and came back the next day.

Mr. REDLICH. So that on the basis of your recollection, if there was a trip in which Lee Oswald went to Moscow and she joined him there this was a different trip from the one you are talking about?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. Is that right?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. Just to make sure of this you say to the best of your recollection she said he went there for one day and returned?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. Can you think of any other aspects of their life in the Soviet Union that Marina discussed with you.

Mr. MARTIN. He used to like her aunt. Now, which aunt I don't know. Yes, I do. It is the aunt that is working as a secretary and her husband is on a pension. She has an aunt and an uncle by blood.

Now, the aunt's husband is on a pension, and the uncle's--The uncle is a lieutenant colonel in the Soviet Army.

Mr. REDLICH. Now, the aunt and uncle that you say she liked very much, is this the aunt and uncle with whom she was living at the time she met Lee Oswald or is this a different aunt and uncle?

Mr. MARTIN. That was all very--always confusing to me because she wouldn't call the spouse of the aunt, for instance, her uncle, and I couldn't tell all the time which party she was talking about.

Mr. DULLES. These were both relatives to Marina, therefore, they were not married.

Mr. MARTIN. Well, no; they were not married to each other.

Mr. DULLES. That is what I mean, yes.

Mr. MARTIN. There were two couples, and the aunt in one couple and the uncle in the other couple. But she didn't refer to the opposite spouse as an aunt and uncle.

Mr. REDLICH. Does the name Berlov refresh your recollection any?

Mr. MARTIN. Berlov?

Representative FORD. Did Marina ever indicate to you anything about her education, what school she attended?

Mr. MARTIN. No, just the school of pharmacy, and she compared her grade school or our grade school, which is, I guess similar to our grade school in high school or junior high, anyway.

Representative FORD. She only referred to the pharmacy training?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Representative FORD. As any special training she received?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Representative FORD. But she did discuss that with you?

Mr. MARTIN. Not at length. Just stated the fact that she had finished pharmacy school.

Representative FORD. But she didn't discuss any other training or schooling of a special nature.

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Representative FORD. Did she ever discuss any special training that Lee might have had while he was in Russia?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Representative FORD. Did she ever discuss Lee's employment while he was in Russia?

Mr. MARTIN. Only that he was unhappy where he was working.

Representative FORD. Did she tell you where he worked, the kind of work he was doing?

Mr. MARTIN. I don't know, I have an idea it was in a factory of some kind, whether she told me that or whether it was an assumption, I don't know.

Mr. REDLICH. Did she ever discuss their apartment, their living quarters in Minsk?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, she said she had a one-room apartment, and had a balcony on it, and that as soon as the baby was born they were going to move to a larger one. I questioned her about that because I understand it is quite difficult to get more than a one-room apartment in Russia and she said, well, Lee was an American and he could get things the Russians couldn't get.

Mr. REDLICH. Did Mrs. Oswald give you the impression that in general she and Lee Oswald had better treatment than other Russians?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, and actually her past life even before she met Lee seemed a little bit strange to me, going to the opera, taking vacations and holidays as she says. I understand it is quite expensive to go to the opera, and she was making, what did she say, 45 rubles a month, and she would take a girl friend with her when she went to the opera.

Now, how much that cost, I don't know.

Mr. REDLICH. Did you ever question her about her financial situation in Russia?

Mr. MARTIN. I asked her how she could afford it and she said she got by. She was living at home or with her aunt and uncle. So I imagine their expenses there weren't high.

Mr. REDLICH. Did she mention any extra income which Lee Harvey Oswald may have had apart from his job?

Mr. MARTIN. No; I asked her about that specifically because I had heard an account that he was supposed to be getting Western Union money orders, and asked her about that. She didn't know what a Western Union money order was, for one thing, so I reworded the question and asked if he was getting money from anyone else other than where he was working, and she said no.

Mr. REDLICH. This was true of this life in the Soviet Union?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, apparently.

Mr. REDLICH. Did Marina ever discuss with you the uncle with whom she lived who was apparently a lieutenant colonel in the Soviet army?

Mr. MARTIN. No; except she didn't like him.

Mr. REDLICH. Did she say why?

Mr. MARTIN. No. She preferred her aunt, who has the husband on the pension.

Mr. REDLICH. Can you search your memory at this point and tell this Commission anything that you have not yet told us about Marina's conversations with you concerning her life in the Soviet Union?

Mr. MARTIN. Her aunt used to bring food and liquor home after parties had at the government building where she was working. Other than talking about--she pulled one tooth out before she came to the United States. A tooth was either crooked or broken and she pulled the tooth out. That caused the other one to twist. I don't know what that was.

Representative FORD. Did Marina ever indicate to you while she was in the Soviet Union that she drank beer, wine, liquor?

Mr. MARTIN. Vodka.

Representative FORD. When she came to the United States, you could observe it, did she drink beer, wine, liquor of any kind?

Mr. MARTIN. She drank, I guess she drank a bottle of beer every day, and occasionally she would drink some vodka.

Representative FORD. But not a heavy drinker?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, have you ever been curious about how Mrs. Oswald was ever able to leave the Soviet Union?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, I wasn't, until Don Levine brought up the subject. Of course, I have no idea what it entails to get into Russia or out of it as far as that is concerned.

But according to Mr. Levine, it is extremely difficult for people to get out of Russia, especially when they have had the training that Marina has had.

Mr. REDLICH. By training you mean what?

Mr. MARTIN. Pharmacy. He said they spent quite a bit of money on her training, and he doesn't understand how she got out of Russia on such short notice.

Mr. REDLICH. Did you ever ask this question of Marina Oswald?

Mr. MARTIN. She said that Lee arranged it, and that is all she would say.

Mr. REDLICH. She never discussed any other aspect of her departure from the Soviet Union?

Mr. MARTIN. No. Let's see, they were in Moscow, she waited a couple of days while he was, how did she put it, collecting money or getting money together to come over to the States. I have forgotten the name of the hotel they stayed in. She even remarked they had pancakes every morning and she didn't like pancakes.

Mr. REDLICH. In terms of her official negotiations to leave the Soviet Union, you asked her nothing other than the question that I have already discussed with you?

Mr. MARTIN. No, she said that Lee arranged everything.

Mr. REDLICH. I would like to ask you a few questions now about some of the individuals that Marina and Lee Harvey Oswald knew in Fort Worth and Dallas, and ask you in each case whether Marina Oswald discussed any of these individuals with you.

The first is George Bouhe.

Mr. MARTIN. I know the name but I don't think Marina has ever mentioned him; Katya Ford has though.

Mr. REDLICH. Are you personally acquainted with George Bouhe?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Could you tell us what Katya Ford has told you about Mr. Bouhe?

Mr. MARTIN. It was relating to Marina--I think Katya Ford and Bouhe are friends, and they had been discussing Marina all the time she was in seclusion, and wondering what had happened to her, where she was. Now this was after the news was out where she was.

Mr. REDLICH. Are you acquainted with----

Mr. DULLES. Excuse me, by "in seclusion", you mean at the time she was with you in your house?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, and the press didn't know where she was.

Mr. DULLES. I see.

Mr. REDLICH. Are you acquainted with George De Mohrenschildt or his wife Jean De Mohrenschildt?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Have you ever discussed either George or Jean De Mohrenschildt with Marina Oswald?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Have you ever discussed George and Jean De Mohrenschildt with anyone else?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. DULLES. Did you ever hear the name mentioned before?

Mr. MARTIN. No. I think I would remember that name.

Mr. REDLICH. Are you personally acquainted with Peter Gregory?

Mr. MARTIN. I met him once, maybe twice, at the Inn. He was interpreting for Marina, for the Secret Service, I believe, before Lee Gopadze got there.

Mr. REDLICH. Do you know who he is?

Mr. MARTIN. I understand he is a geologist, and he also teaches Russian.

Mr. REDLICH. Did Marina ever discuss either Peter Gregory or Paul Gregory with you?

Mr. MARTIN. She mentioned--I don't know which one.

Mr. REDLICH. One is the father and one is a son.

Mr. MARTIN. I think it is the older gentleman that I met. She mentioned that she liked him.

Mr. REDLICH. The older gentleman?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes. And I think she corresponded with him. I know she corresponded with him.

Mr. REDLICH. Do you have any knowledge of Mr. Gregory's son?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Have you ever met him?

Mr. MARTIN. Not to my knowledge.

Mr. REDLICH. You have had no conversations with anyone else about him?

Mr. MARTIN. No. We were--I think John Thorne and I were talking about at sometime we may need an interpreter, and I mentioned his name in that instance.

Mr. REDLICH. That would be the elder Mr. Gregory?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes. But nothing on Paul Gregory.

Mr. REDLICH. Nothing on Paul Gregory?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Are you aware of the fact that Paul Gregory is a student at the University of Oklahoma?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Did Marina ever discuss with you the fact that she had helped tutor the son of Peter Gregory?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Are you familiar with--strike that. Do you have any personal acquaintanceship with Gary Taylor?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Have you ever heard the name of Gary Taylor?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Marina Oswald has never discussed that name with you?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Do you know Mrs. Elena Hall?

Mr. MARTIN. Elena Hall? No.

Mr. REDLICH. Has Marina ever discussed her with you?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. The name John R. Hall, who is the husband of Mrs. Elena Hall?

Mr. MARTIN. No, it sounded a little familiar but I can't place anything on it.

Mr. REDLICH. Do you know Mrs. Katherine Ford?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. Could you tell us how you came to know her?

Mr. MARTIN. Let's see, she had contacted Marina a couple of times by letter, and----

Representative FORD. While she was staying at your home?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes--well, she sent the letter to Grand Prairie, the letters, Christmas cards, and I think two letters after that. So I called her and Marina wanted to, expressed a desire to, talk to her. So I called her and Marina talked to her on the phone. I think every time she talked to her she talked nearly an hour.

Representative FORD. In Russian or in English?

Mr. MARTIN. In Russian.

Mr. DULLES. Was it on the telephone?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. Did Marina ever tell you the gist of these conversations?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Did Marina ever relate to you whether she had ever lived in Mrs. Ford's home?

Mr. MARTIN. I believe she had for a very short time.

Mr. REDLICH. You mean Marina related this to you?

Mr. MARTIN. I think Mrs. Ford told me that.

Mr. REDLICH. How did you get this knowledge, from Marina or from Mrs. Ford? Did you ever discuss this with Marina?

Mr. MARTIN. No. I know Marina likes her home, I mean likes the house that they live in.

Mr. REDLICH. Did you ever ask Marina how it came about that she was separated from her husband and living at the home of Mrs. Ford?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Did any of Marina's other Russian-speaking friends in the Dallas-Fort Worth area write letters to her while she was at your home?

Mr. MARTIN. Mrs. Paine wrote at least once a week and----

Mr. DULLES. Once a week?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes. Marina did not answer, didn't answer any of the letters and didn't call her.

Mr. REDLICH. Did Mrs. Paine attempt to reach Marina by phone?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, until I had my telephone number changed and then she couldn't find the phone number so she came over to the house.

Mr. REDLICH. What happened when she came to the house?

Mr. MARTIN. Nothing, I let her in the house and Marina and the children were back in the den and the Secret Service men went back into the den, and I don't believe she knew that she was there.

Mr. DULLES. Was the change in number, did it have anything to do with Marina as objecting to receiving the calls?

Mr. MARTIN. No. That was strictly because the press pressure.

Mr. DULLES. The presence of the press?

Mr. REDLICH. I would like to go back to this incident when Mrs. Paine came to see Marina. You say Marina did not know that Mrs. Paine was there?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, she knew it.

Mr. REDLICH. She knew that Mrs. Paine was there?

Mr. MARTIN. Mrs. Paine didn't know that Marina was there.

Mr. REDLICH. But Marina knew that Mrs. Paine was there?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. Did Marina see Mrs. Paine at that time?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Did you talk to Marina at that time?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, before and after.

Mr. REDLICH. At the time Mrs. Paine was there did you personally tell Marina that Mrs. Paine wanted to see her?

Mr. MARTIN. I told her before Mrs. Paine came in the door that Mrs. Paine was here, and she said she didn't want to see her. She stayed in the den, and Mrs. Paine was in the living room.

Mr. REDLICH. Then did you convey this message to Mrs. Paine yourself?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Who did?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, she came with the intention or for the purpose of bringing a package to Marina that she had received in the mail, and I don't believe she knew that Marina was living there. I told her at that time that because of security that Marina wasn't seeing anyone but I don't believe she knew that Marina was at that address until later.

Mr. REDLICH. When Mrs. Paine called your home prior to the change of phone, did you speak to Mrs. Paine?

Mr. MARTIN. No, my wife did.

Mr. REDLICH. Do you recall the nature of the conversations between your wife and Mrs. Paine as reported to you?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, let's see, she called and asked for Marina or asked to get in touch with Marina. My wife gave me the number and I guess I called her back.

Mr. REDLICH. You called Mrs. Paine back?

Mr. MARTIN. A day or two later, yes.

Mr. REDLICH. What did you say to her?

Mr. MARTIN. I told her that under the present circumstances she just didn't want to see anybody, and also the security on her didn't permit her to go out too far. That we could possibly arrange a meeting at some middle point later on.

Mr. REDLICH. Was Marina free to see anyone she wanted to see?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. And the reason she didn't see Mrs. Paine was because she didn't want to see Mrs. Paine?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes. I asked her several times to call her, at least call Mrs. Paine and tell her she didn't want to see her, and she just shrugged her shoulders and said she didn't want to talk to her.

Mr. REDLICH. Did Marina ever tell you why she didn't want to talk to her?

Mr. MARTIN. She said something about Mrs. Paine talking too much, and she didn't like Mrs. Paine's children.

Mr. REDLICH. Were you aware at the time that Marina had lived with Mrs. Paine?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. Were you aware at the time that Mrs. Paine had taken the Oswald family to New Orleans and had----

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. Gone to New Orleans and brought them back to Irving, Tex.?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, that is why I felt she owed Mrs. Paine something.

Mr. REDLICH. What was Marina's attitude toward your comments?

Mr. MARTIN. She just didn't want to talk to her.

Mr. REDLICH. Did you yourself ever meet Mrs. Paine?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. Would you describe that meeting?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, the first time I met her was we went over to the Paine's house to pick up some of Marina's belongings.

Mr. REDLICH. Who is "we"?

Mr. MARTIN. John Thorne and I.

Mr. REDLICH. Do you recall about when this was?

Mr. MARTIN. I guess it was about a week after she had moved in, maybe shorter, maybe sooner than that. There was not much said at all at that meeting. Then when she came out to the house she talked at length, but it was----

Mr. REDLICH. There is another occasion when you say she came?

Mr. MARTIN. When she came to my house.

Mr. REDLICH. That was the same occasion that you referred to earlier when she came to pick up a package?

Mr. MARTIN. To deliver a package.

Mr. REDLICH. To deliver a package, I am sorry. Could you relate what happened at that time?

Mr. MARTIN. I was quite distracted by the children. It was rather a stiff meeting or conversation.

Representative FORD. This was the meeting at Mrs. Paine's house?

Mr. MARTIN. No, my house.

Representative FORD. Your house?

Mr. MARTIN. Mrs. Paine brought, I think, a package and some food, cookies, things like that, for Marina, and----

Mr. DULLES. Those are from Mrs. Paine to Marina, but the package was a third----

Mr. MARTIN. The package came through the mail.

Mr. DULLES. That you understand, but the cookies came from Mrs. Paine.

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

I believe she brought some toys for the children. What the toys were, I don't recall. Her children were running back and forth through the living room making quite a bit of noise.

Mr. DULLES. Mrs. Paine's children?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes. And I wasn't really paying too much attention to what she was saying. I was wanting her to leave. I didn't ask her to leave but I wasn't saying much to foster the conversation. Then she left in, I guess, 15 minutes.

Mr. REDLICH. What did Mrs. Paine say to you?

Mr. MARTIN. Oh, boy----

Mr. DULLES. Was she disturbed, I mean was she annoyed, visibly annoyed, that Marina wouldn't see her. She didn't know Marina was in the house, I realize that.

Mr. MARTIN. She didn't know Marina was in the house. I am certain she didn't.

Mr. REDLICH. You mean her children were running around the house though, weren't they?

Mr. MARTIN. Her children were running in the living room and dining room.

Mr. DULLES. But not into the den?

Mr. MARTIN. But not into the den and kitchen.

Representative FORD. Do you have a door on the den so you can close the den off?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes. She talked mostly about generalities and she would like to see Marina to make sure she is well taken care of, and so on. She was concerned about her. And she came back after that time, she came back once more. I wasn't there. My wife answered the door and didn't invite her in.

Mr. DULLES. How long a trip is it from your house to Mrs. Paine's, roughly, a few miles?

Mr. MARTIN. No, a good 20 miles.

Mr. DULLES. A good 20 miles?

Mr. MARTIN. Because it is 30 miles out to the Inn, and she lives about 8 or 10 miles toward me from the Inn, so it is about 20 miles.

Mr. REDLICH. Your wife did not invite Mrs. Paine into the house at that time?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Was this at Marina's urging?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes. Mrs. Paine was quite upset at that--that is what Wanda said, she looked upset at that time.

Representative FORD. On this occasion, did Mrs. Paine know Marina was in the house?

Mr. MARTIN. No, I don't believe so.

Mr. DULLES. Did she ask where she was, specifically?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. DULLES. She didn't ask?

Mr. REDLICH. What was the purpose of her visit?

Mr. MARTIN. I don't believe--let's see, she may have brought something that day, too. I don't recall whether she did or not. I know right after that, the Civil Liberties Union got into it. Well, Mark Lane, was first.

Mr. REDLICH. You say right after that Mark Lane got into it?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. Would you elaborate on that?

Mr. MARTIN. Mark Lane came to Dallas, and contacted John Thorne and I. We met him at the Statler and talked to him at lunch, and he expressed a desire to talk to Marina Oswald so that he could represent her husband, defend her husband in a hearing, and we told him that we would relay that information to her.

So we did, and she said that she didn't want to have any representation. She didn't want any more----

Mr. REDLICH. You mean she didn't want any representation for Lee Oswald?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, she didn't want any more to do about it.

Representative FORD. Can you recall the date of this visit by Mr. Lane?

Mr. MARTIN. No.