Part 19

Mr. GREER. No, sir; I didn't see anything of the President. I didn't look, I wasn't far enough around to see the President.

Mr. SPECTER. When you started that glance, are you able to recollect whether you started to glance before, exactly simultaneously with or after that second shot?

Mr. GREER. It was almost simultaneously that he had--something had hit, you know, when I had seen him. It seemed like in the same second almost that something had hit, you know, whenever I turned around. I saw him start to fall.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you step on the accelerator before, simultaneously or after Mr. Kellerman instructed you to accelerate?

Mr. GREER. It was about simultaneously.

Mr. SPECTER. So that it was your reaction to accelerate prior to the time----

Mr. GREER. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. You had gotten that instruction?

Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; it was my reaction that caused me to accelerate.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recollect whether you accelerated before or at the same time or after the third shot?

Mr. GREER. I couldn't really say. Just as soon as I turned my head back from the second shot, right away I accelerated right then. It was a matter of my reflexes to the accelerator.

Mr. SPECTER. Was it at about that time that you heard the third shot?

Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; just as soon as I turned my head.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of the speed of the car at the time of the first, second, or third shots?

Mr. GREER. I would estimate my speed was between 12 and 15 miles per hour.

Mr. SPECTER. At the time all of the shots occurred?

Mr. GREER. At the time the shots occurred.

Mr. SPECTER. Now what, if anything, was Mr. Kellerman doing at the time of the first shot?

Mr. GREER. I couldn't really speak for where he was watching, what part of the street or the buildings or what he was watching at that time. I don't really know.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what Mr. Kellerman was doing at the time of the second shot?

Mr. GREER. He was sitting there in the front. No, sir; I don't know what his action was then. I was watching the overpass, I wasn't looking his way.

Mr. SPECTER. When you were watching the overpass at that time, did you observe anything on the overpass?

Mr. GREER. Not that I can remember now.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe that there was no one present on the overpass?

Mr. GREER. My recollection, there may have been a police officer up there. It is vague to me now everything that I had seen at that time.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what Mr. Kellerman was doing at the time of the third shot?

Mr. GREER. No, sir; I couldn't say what he was doing.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any radio communication between your automobile and any of the other automobiles?

Mr. GREER. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Who made that radio communication?

Mr. GREER. Kellerman.

Mr. SPECTER. Tell us as precisely as you can when he made that radio communication.

Mr. GREER. After he had said to me, "Get out of here fast." He got the radio and called to the lead car, "Get us to a hospital fast, nearest hospital fast."

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall whether he said anything else at that time?

Mr. GREER. After he had said to me, he said, "12:30," and that is all I remember him saying to me was 12:30, and he had communications with the cars but I don't remember what he had said to them.

Mr. SPECTER. Did he say just "12:30," or was it 12:30 used in a sentence?

Mr. GREER. He said "12:30." He looked at his watch, he said "12:30," and we were in the underpass at the time.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Greer, would you on Commission's Exhibit 347, mark with an "A" as best you can indicate the position of the President's automobile at the time of the first shot?

Mr. GREER. Do you want me to mark it on this exhibit?

Mr. SPECTER. Right there, that is right, that red pencil with an "A," a small "A."

Mr. GREER. This is the center, I would say [indicating].

Mr. SPECTER. Will you mark your best estimate as to the position of the automobile at the time of the second shot with the letter "B"?

Mr. GREER. I would have to guess how far I had traveled at that time. I really wouldn't know. It was probably a little farther, only guessing how far I would go. I am guessing as to the distance between them. Maybe farther but I am only guessing to say at that. I wouldn't have any definite reason.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you make that "B" a little plainer, if you can?

Mr. GREER. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Could you give us the best estimate in feet as to the distance you traveled from the time of the first shot to the time of the second shot?

Mr. GREER. No, sir; I don't believe I could. Anything I would say would be guessing.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you be able to give us a meaningful mark on the overhead photograph as to the position of your car at the time of the third shot?

Mr. GREER. From this overhead. I probably was where this mark is here.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you mark it?

Mr. GREER. I will put it alongside.

Mr. SPECTER. Put a little "C."

Mr. GREER. This was for the third shot.

Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. GREER. This is "C." This not having an idea really of how much footage is in there at all. I wouldn't----

The CHAIRMAN. I didn't understand.

Mr. GREER. I said I wouldn't probably know, Mr. Chief Justice, how many feet would be in that distance, I would be guessing how many feet.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes; I understand.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any opportunity to observe the overhead as you were driving along after the last shot occurred?

Mr. GREER. No, sir. I was fairly close to it, to the best of my memory, and I was trying to watch then where I was going. I had to look ahead to see, I was catching up on the lead car real fast, and I had to watch what was ahead of me.

Mr. SPECTER. How fast was it possible to accelerate your automobile at that time?

Mr. GREER. Well, it is a very heavy automobile, and it does not pick up too fast on account of the weight. I have never tested to see how many feet I could travel in a second. I have never had any reason to test it to see how much I could travel. But it was in low gear at that time, and that helps you to accelerate a lot faster.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you characterize it as a very rapid or a rapid acceleration?

Mr. GREER. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Or how would you characterize it?

Mr. GREER. It is a very smooth car taking off anyway, and I would say it wasn't rapid. It is fairly fast in low gear but not rapid like a light car will be.

Mr. SPECTER. Does that car have an automatic transmission?

Mr. GREER. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And what are the varieties of forward speeds in the vehicle?

Mr. GREER. It has a low gear and then it has drive one and drive two. It has two top gears. One has, one probably has, free wheeling more than the other. The other is not a free wheeling gear.

Mr. SPECTER. How fast can the car be driven in the low gear?

Mr. GREER. I would say safely you can drive it up to 40 miles an hour in low gear. That is estimating it at 40.

Mr. SPECTER. From the time of the first shot until the time of the third shot, was your car moving in a straight line or in an arc or how would you describe it?

Mr. GREER. I was following the contour of the road, the center of the contour of the road as it goes.

Mr. SPECTER. What is the path of the contour of the road?

Mr. GREER. Well, at the time I didn't think much of it but it is a little, there is a little bend in the road going to the underpass.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you hear anyone in the car say anything from the time of the first shot until the time of the third shot?

Mr. GREER. Not to the best of my recollection, I don't remember.

(At this point, Representative Boggs entered the hearing room.)

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Greer, did you hear anyone say anything from the time of the third shot until the time of arrival at Parkland Hospital?

Mr. GREER. No, sir; I didn't. I didn't hear, I can't remember hearing anyone say anything at all. We were quite preoccupied to get to the hospital as fast as we can, as we could, and that was my mind was really occupied on what I was doing. I didn't hear anything.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what speed you were traveling at en route to the hospital?

Mr. GREER. No, sir; I couldn't say. I was just getting through the traffic and through the streets as fast as I could get through.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you have any estimate at all on speed?

Mr. GREER. I would estimate that I must have been doing 40 or 50, at least 50 miles an hour at times. We might have been going as fast as 50 miles an hour, I am sure.

Mr. SPECTER. When you accelerated your automobile, did you at any time come alongside of or pass the police car in front of you?

Mr. GREER. No, sir; I never passed it. I came up alongside one or two motorcycle men and I called to them "get to a hospital fast". You know, I called to them "hospital".

Mr. SPECTER. Were you led to the hospital?

Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; I was led to the hospital by the police car who was preceding me.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any independent knowledge of the route from where you were?

Mr. GREER. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. From the point of assassination to the hospital?

Mr. GREER. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you escorted by any other automobiles besides the police car in front of you?

Mr. GREER. We had motorcycles and I don't know if there were other police cars out in front of that or not. I am sure there may have been, but I couldn't say right now.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any radio communication between your automobile and the hospital at any time prior to your arrival at the hospital?

Mr. GREER. No, sir; not between the hospital and our car.

Mr. SPECTER. Did Mr. Kellerman have any radio contact at all with anyone in addition to that which you have already described?

Mr. GREER. He may have had some more communications to the car, the lead car, but I can't remember what they were now.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any bullets strike any portion of the car or ricochet in any way during the course of the shooting?

Mr. GREER. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any bullets or fragments of bullets at rest in the car after the shooting terminated?

Mr. GREER. No, sir; I didn't. I left the car at the hospital and I didn't see it any more until the next day.

Mr. SPECTER. I hand you Commission Exhibit No. 349, Mr. Greer, and ask if you are able to identify what that picture represents?

Mr. GREER. That represents the windshield of the car.

Mr. SPECTER. Of the President's car?

Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; it looks like the windshield of the President's car.

Mr. SPECTER. Now calling your attention to a small arrow----

Mr. GREER. Arrow.

Mr. SPECTER. Which points up on what appears to be an indentation, I ask you if you--when was the first time, if at all, that you observed that indentation?

Mr. GREER. I didn't observe that----

Mr. SPECTER. On the car?

Mr. GREER. Until after I got back to Washington, until the car came back to Washington. I saw it at the White House garage. It was the first time I had ever noticed that.

Mr. SPECTER. On what date did you observe that indentation on the car?

Mr. GREER. That was the day after, the 23, would be it. It would be the day after the shooting. We got back from Dallas.

Mr. SPECTER. And what time of the day did you observe the car at the White House garage on that date?

Mr. GREER. It was in the afternoon, I believe. I believe it was in the afternoon, I believe.

Mr. SPECTER. Did anyone call that indentation to your attention at that time?

Mr. GREER. Yes; I was asked if I knew about it.

Mr. SPECTER. Who was it who asked you?

Mr. GREER. I can't remember now who did say that, but I was shown that indentation at the same time I was the break in the glass. I was shown both and asked if I had known but I can't remember who might have asked me.

Mr. SPECTER. Had you ever observed that indentation before the assassination occurred?

Mr. GREER. No, sir. I had never noticed it before at any time. I had never seen it before.

Mr. SPECTER. Had you ever had any occasion to examine closely that metallic area to ascertain whether or not there was such an indentation prior to the assassination?

Mr. GREER. Well, it seems to me I would have prior to that had it been there because I do take care of the car sometimes, and it had never been--I had never noticed it at any previous time.

Mr. SPECTER. I hand you Commission Exhibit 350 and ask you if you are able to state what that depicts?

Mr. GREER. That depicts a break or a shatter in the windshield of it.

Mr. SPECTER. Does that picture accurately represent the status of the windshield on the President's car at sometime?

Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; that windshield looks real familiar to me on the way it----

Mr. SPECTER. At what time, based on your observation, did the windshield of the President's car look like that picture?

Mr. GREER. I had never seen that until the following day after it came back from Dallas.

Mr. SPECTER. But on November 23, did the President's car windshield look like that?

Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; it looked like there was a break that had a diamond, in the windshield whenever I was shown that at the garage, the White House garage.

Mr. SPECTER. Was the size and scope of the crack the same as that which is shown on that exhibit?

Mr. GREER. That I wouldn't remember whether it was quite that large or not. I don't believe it was that big. It might not have been but I wouldn't say for sure.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any crack on the windshield after the time of the shooting on November 22?

Mr. GREER. No, sir; I didn't see it at all. I didn't know anything about it until I came back, until the car came back and I was shown that.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any occasion on November 22, after the shooting, to observe closely the windshield?

Mr. GREER. No, sir. The only time I was in the car was going to the hospital and I never--I didn't see the car any more. It was just from the shooting until we got to Parkland that I was with the car. I left the car there and never did see it until it was back at the White House garage.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to state with certainty there was no crack in that windshield prior to the shooting on November 22?

Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; I am sure there was nothing wrong with that windshield prior to that because I would have--it was almost in front of me and I examined the car. I looked it all over when I got there. I saw it was clean and everything, the windshield. I didn't see this ever at any time previous.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Greer, I now call your attention to a windshield which has been marked as Commission Exhibit No. 351, and I will ask you to take a look at it and identify it for us, if you can, calling your attention first of all to the windshield itself. Are you able to state----

Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; this is the windshield that came out of the Lincoln.

Mr. SPECTER. That you were operating on the day of the assassination?

Mr. GREER. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you describe what cracks, if any, which you see now on that windshield were present?

Mr. GREER. When I looked----

Mr. SPECTER. When you observed the automobile windshield on November 23, the next day?

Mr. GREER. This little star, the star in here with the little star. These cracks were not there.

Mr. SPECTER. Now by these cracks you are indicating----

Mr. GREER. These.

Mr. SPECTER. The long cracks which radiate off from the center?

Mr. GREER. That is right. This was the only cracks that I could see was this star-type fragment.

Mr. SPECTER. There you are indicating what would be described as the principal point of contact which was present when you observed it on November 23?

Mr. GREER. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Give me your best estimate on the diameter of the cracking of the windshield as it existed on November 23?

Mr. GREER. To the best of my estimate it would be these little stars that are here, the little shatters that are here.

Mr. SPECTER. Would it be fair to say that you are indicating a circle with a circumference or diameter of approximately an inch to an inch and a half?

Mr. GREER. I don't think--it probably would be an inch. The whole diameter.

Mr. SPECTER. Approximately 1 inch as you estimate it?

Mr. GREER. Yes, sir.

Representative BOGGS. Excuse me, did you say you did not notice this crack from the time that you drove the car after the shooting to the hospital?

Mr. GREER. No, sir; I had flags on the car and you know they were waving at a high rate of speed and you have the Presidential flag and the American flag in front of you there; you know when you are going at a fast speed you get a lot of, well, I don't know how you would say it, it attracts you so much that I didn't have any recollection of what happened on the windshield.

Representative BOGGS. There was no glass or anything that spattered on you in any way?

Mr. GREER. No, sir; I didn't feel anything at all. I didn't feel a thing hit me. I was kind of shocked at the time, I guess anything could have and I wouldn't have known what hit me. You are tense, I was pretty tense, and naturally my thoughts were the hospital, and how fast I could get there, and probably I could have been injured and not even known I was injured. I was in that position.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Greer, what is your best estimate and recollection of the time that the shooting occurred?

Mr. GREER. Well, Mr. Kellerman saying 12:30 to me makes me--that stays in my mind foremost, and that was when we had just left the scene of the shooting, a few seconds or a second or two from it. That is why that 12:30 stays in my mind, him saying 12:30 to me right after the shooting, he said. His watch may not have been correct but that is what he said to me at the time.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of the distance between the point where the assassination occurred and Parkland Hospital?

Mr. GREER. No, sir; I haven't. It seemed like endless miles and probably wasn't very far, but it seemed like to me it was endless getting there. I was----

Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to give us an estimate with reasonable accuracy on the time it took?

Mr. GREER. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. From the time it took from the point of the shooting until you arrived at Parkland Hospital?

Mr. GREER. I didn't check anything but I thought that probably it would probably be 6 or 8 minutes. I am not too sure, somewhere in the vicinity of 5 and 10 minutes. I would have to guess at that.

Mr. SPECTER. How did you know which entrance of the hospital to go to?

Mr. GREER. I followed the car that was in front of me right to where he stopped and I was right at the entrance. The car stopped and I stopped alongside of him.

Mr. SPECTER. Which entrance was that?

Mr. GREER. It seems, I think it was the emergency entrance, I am almost sure. It was like a bay that you could pull in and out of. It looked like an ambulance entrance.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe with respect to President Kennedy's condition on arrival at the Parkland Hospital?

Mr. GREER. To the best of my knowledge he was laying, it seemed across Mrs. Kennedy, looked like laying across her lap or in front of her, I am not too sure which, I opened the doors--the doors were opened before I got to it, someone else had opened the doors and they were trying to get Connally out, and Mrs. Connally out of the seats so they could get to the President.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe about the President with respect to his wounds?

Mr. GREER. His head was all shot, this whole part was all a matter of blood like he had been hit.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the top and right rear side of the head?

Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; it looked like that was all blown off.

Mr. SPECTER. Yes.

Mr. GREER. I run around the front of the car and got hold of a stretcher or thing and I got hold of it to keep it steady while they lifted the President's body onto it and then I helped pull the front end of it into the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. Who was first removed from the automobile?

Mr. GREER. Governor Connally was first removed. He was on the jump seats.

Mr. SPECTER. And what, if anything, did you observe as to Governor Connally's condition on arrival at Parkland Hospital?

Mr. GREER. The best of my recollection he was lying across the seat toward Mrs. Connally when they picked him up and got him out of the car. And he was rushed in first into the hospital. That is when I got the stretcher to bring it, to hold it until they would get the President on it, on the right side of the car. They took him out on the side he was sitting on, that side of the car.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to make any personal observation about Governor Connally's specific wound?

Mr. GREER. No, sir. I didn't know how badly anyone really was injured. I had great thoughts the President was still living and that was the only thing I was thinking about was to get them in quick.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe anything specific which led you to the conclusion that the President was still living?

Mr. GREER. No, sir. When he was in the emergency room and I was there, I did see his chest expand and move, the movement of the chest a time or so.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to observe any wound on the front side of the President?

Mr. GREER. No, sir; I didn't, I never seen any on the front side of the President. The only thing I saw was on the head. I didn't know at the time of any other injuries on him.

Mr. SPECTER. As to the front side of the President's body, were you able to observe any hole or tear in either his shirt or tie?

Mr. GREER. No, sir; I didn't and I brought them back, those things, and I didn't see them at the time. I probably didn't inspect them very closely but they were handed to me in a paper bag to bring back.

Mr. SPECTER. When did you acquire custody and possession of those items of clothing?

Mr. GREER. After they had made the President's body ready for removal, I was in the emergency room, and a nurse got two shopping bags and I held them and she put the President's suit, his belongings into the two bags including his shoes and socks, and his pants and jacket which they had torn and the shirt they had torn, they had torn it to take it off him, and the nurse put these into the two bags and I got custody of them right then from the nurse at the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. Were there any other items of wearing apparel such as shorts or undershirt?

Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; his shorts and that brace he wore, whatever it was, and his sox and shoes, and shirt, and his trousers, and his suit coat.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to state with certainty that there was no undershirt?

Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; there was no undershirt. I am sure there was no undershirt. I would have to say it to the best of my recollection, there was no undershirt. I had been with him so many times and I knew he didn't normally wear an undershirt because I had heard him one time previously, I offered him a coat.

He said, "I have an undershirt on today," it was at some ballgame. He normally didn't wear an undershirt.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you describe with more particularity the brace you just said he was wearing?

Mr. GREER. It looked like a, I would say, a corset-type brace, maybe 6 inches wide, he wore it around his, down low around his, haunches, a little lower than the waist, probably, just probably below his belt he wore it there. It was something he normally wore, and I would guess, but I would say it was of a soft, maybe a kind of corset-type material, maybe elastic or something like that support.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Greer, when your automobile arrived at Parkland, was there any medical individual awaiting your arrival?

Mr. GREER. I can't remember--there were--who brought the stretchers out. There were some hospital people there, but who they were, I never got--I couldn't identify or knew who they were. There were some medical people there; yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Where were they when you first saw hospital personnel?