Part 18

Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth before this Commission, so help you God?

Mr. GREER. I do.

The CHAIRMAN. Would you be seated, please.

TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM ROBERT GREER, SPECIAL AGENT, SECRET SERVICE

Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name for the record, please.

Mr. GREER. William Robert Greer.

Mr. SPECTER. By whom are you employed, Mr. Greer?

Mr. GREER. The Treasury Department, Secret Service Division of the Treasury Department.

Mr. SPECTER. How old are you at the present time?

Mr. GREER. Fifty-four years old.

Mr. SPECTER. How long have you been with the Secret Service Department?

Mr. GREER. I have been with the Secret Service Department since October 1, 1945.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your educational background?

Mr. GREER. I have just education in public schools in Ireland, really.

Mr. SPECTER. And----

Mr. GREER. I took courses here in this country.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you a high school graduate, then?

Mr. GREER. Well, I have 2 years of high school.

Mr. SPECTER. And when did you complete this educational background?

Mr. GREER. I have to go back now.

Mr. SPECTER. Approximately.

Mr. GREER. About 1924 or 1925.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline in a general way what your activities have been since that time, up until your joining the Secret Service, please?

Mr. GREER. Yes, sir. I was born and raised on farmwork, a farmer. And I done that until I came to this country in February 1930. I worked for a period of time--I lived in Boston for a little while. I worked one summer on the estate of Henry Cabot Lodge. I was a chauffeur for a family in Brookline, Mass., for about a year. And then I went to New York, Dobbs Ferry, N.Y. I lived there for 13 years as a chauffeur for a private family in Dobbs Ferry, N.Y. Then I went in the Navy in November 1942. I got discharged on September 18, 1945.

Mr. SPECTER. What were your principal duties while in the Navy?

Mr. GREER. I was seaman first class. I did almost 2 years at Bainbridge, Md., with the seaman guard there. And then I was assigned to the presidential yacht in May 1944, until I was discharged in September. But most of my duty was at the White House in that period, that year.

Mr. SPECTER. And how long after discharge from the Navy was it before you joined the U.S. Secret Service?

Mr. GREER. Well, I got out of the Navy September 18 and October 1 I went with the Secret Service--a matter of 14 or 15 days.

Mr. SPECTER. Describe your duties since joining the Secret Service, please.

Mr. GREER. Since joining the Secret Service I was assigned to the uniform force at first with the Secret Service at the Bureau of Engraving and Printing. For about 2 years I was with the physical education part of it. We had a gymnasium there. I was an instructor there part-time--part of the time. And then I was assigned for about 2 years to pick up the food of the President at the White House. I had that duty for about 2 years. And then I went back to the Treasury for a short period, a few months. And then I was reassigned to the White House as an agent in November--1950 I went, there. I was made a full agent that following August 1951. I was there as a special officer from November to August 1951.

Mr. SPECTER. And have you been assigned to the White House staff since that time?

Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; I have been there ever since.

Mr. SPECTER. And while assigned at the White House staff, how much of your duty has involved driving the President's car?

Mr. GREER. Well, I drove the followup car for quite a long time--you know, off and on. And then I drove the President at intervals during President Truman's and President Eisenhower's terms. I was also assigned a great many times to Mrs. Eisenhower. When she left Washington, I was always assigned to her, to travel with her. And I have been assigned to the President, to drive the President, since election day, with President Kennedy. I was the senior agent assigned to him, to drive him.

Mr. SPECTER. How did you get to Dallas yourself back on November 22, 1963?

Mr. GREER. I flew--I was on a plane with the President all during the trip. And I flew from Fort Worth to Dallas that morning.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Greer, I hand you documents which have been marked Commission Exhibits 344, 345, and 346. I ask you if you can identify those, starting with 344, what that depicts.

Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; I can identify this automobile very well. That is the 1961 Lincoln, especially built for the President. And this is a rear view of that same automobile. This is the interior of that Lincoln Continental. Yes, sir, everything is very positive that I can identify.

Mr. SPECTER. How did that automobile--how was that automobile transported to Texas?

Mr. GREER. It was flown there in a C-130.

Mr. SPECTER. And do you know where it was flown to?

Mr. GREER. Well, it was flown--let's see, I forget the day before where our first stop was on that trip right now. I would have to go back into my papers. But we used I believe more than one stop. I am trying to think where we used it before we went to Dallas. It could have been at Houston. I am not too sure whether we used it at Houston the day before or not. I would have to go back in my records.

Mr. SPECTER. Is it possible the first time you used the automobile on that Texas trip was at Dallas?

Mr. GREER. Right now it is so long ago, I have almost forgotten whether we did use it at Houston prior to that or not. I am not too sure where the first stop was. We sometimes use it more than one stop.

Mr. SPECTER. Is there any covering which can be put on the President's automobile?

Mr. GREER. There is--when we put the plastic--I put the plastic on it, we have a black canvass-type cover that buttons over the top of the plastic.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you please describe in a general way the plastic covering you just referred to.

Mr. GREER. The plastic covering is made in six pieces. Three of them--there are two corner pieces and a centerpiece on the back that we fasten together before we set it up onto the car. Then there is a front--one piece that goes across the front seat after that. Then the last pieces we put on are two that go in the center, and they meet together in the center--they come together in the center. That makes the six pieces that it comes down in. We have to break it down in the six pieces to store it in the trunk. It is kept in the trunk of the car whenever we are not using it.

Mr. SPECTER. Are the three pieces that you described as being joined together for the rear portion disassembled at all times?

Mr. GREER. We disassemble them to store them in the trunk, yes, sir. But we put them together on the floor, on the ground or something like that--we put the three pieces together, then we lift it up and set it in place, which covers the back seat of the car.

Mr. SPECTER. And after you put the three pieces together for the back portion of the car, how many additional pieces are there for the balance of the car?

Mr. GREER. Three; three more pieces.

Mr. SPECTER. And how are they secured to the automobile itself?

Mr. GREER. They are secured with--I don't know what you would call it--these fasteners, snaps, kind of snaps that snap on them. We have them made that way so that we can install them or take them apart very fast.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, is this cover transparent? Can it be seen through?

Mr. GREER. The plastic; yes. You can see through it.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is the plastic made of, if you know?

Mr. GREER. Well, it is a type of plastic. I just don't know who manufactures it. But it is clear plastic.

Mr. SPECTER. Is it bulletproof or bullet resistant?

Mr. GREER. No, sir. It is weather--the idea back of it was for inclement weather, that the President could be seen if the weather was too bad to have him outside. That is what we had in mind originally with it.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any personal knowledge of any efforts made to obtain a bulletproof or bullet-resistant transparent top?

Mr. GREER. Now, or before that?

Mr. SPECTER. Well, start beforehand.

Mr. GREER. No; I never had anything to do with that at all. I never had anything to do with anything being made for that.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what efforts have been made subsequent to the assassination of President Kennedy to obtain such a bulletproof transparent top?

Mr. GREER. Only just hearing conversation; nothing definite; no, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Approximately what time, to the best of your recollection, did President Kennedy arrive in Dallas on November 22?

Mr. GREER. I would have to--I would not tell you right now. I would have to go back and look into my--you probably have it there. I have it also on my report.

Mr. SPECTER. If you don't recall the exact time, just give us your best estimate.

Mr. GREER. Approximately 11:35. I am guessing.

Mr. SPECTER. And what was his mode of transportation into Dallas?

Mr. GREER. He flew on an Air Force plane.

Mr. SPECTER. And where did he fly from?

Mr. GREER. From Fort Worth to Dallas.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you tell us in a general way what he did upon arrival in Dallas at Love Field?

Mr. GREER. Yes, sir. He got off the plane. He walked along the fence along there, and shook hands with a great many people. There was a large crowd there. He and Mrs. Kennedy both walked along and shook hands with many people.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, approximately how long after arrival at Love Field did he get into his automobile?

Mr. GREER. I would guess probably, say, approximately maybe 10 minutes.

Mr. SPECTER. What were the weather conditions like that day as he got into his automobile?

Mr. GREER. The weather was very nice that day. It was a beautiful day in Dallas, very fine day, warm, fairly warm, nice day.

Mr. SPECTER. Was the car open?

Mr. GREER. The car was open; no top.

Mr. SPECTER. Approximately how many automobiles were there in that motorcade?

Mr. GREER. I wouldn't have--couldn't tell you right now how many. There was quite a few cars.

Mr. SPECTER. Who were the occupants of the President's car?

Mr. GREER. On the back seat, on the right rear seat, the President, Mrs. Kennedy on the left rear seat, Governor Connally was on the right jump seat, and Mrs. Connally was on the left jump seat. Mr. Kellerman was riding on the right front, and I was driving.

Mr. SPECTER. At what speed did you travel as you proceeded at various points from Love Field, say, down into the downtown area of Dallas?

Mr. GREER. Well, we traveled at various speeds, according to the amount of people, the crowd. If it was--if we came to a large crowd, we would have to slow down. I would say, to probably 10 to 15 miles an hour. Then we would pick it up possibly 25 or somewhere around--25 maybe to 30, where there was few people.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the maximum speed at which you drove from the time you left Love Field until the time you got to downtown Dallas?

Mr. GREER. I wouldn't have the slightest idea now, after this length of time. I could not say how much it would be.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you give us your best estimate on the minimum speed from the time you left Love Field until the time you arrived at downtown Dallas?

Mr. GREER. The minimum speed traveling at all would probably be 10 to 15 miles an hour.

Mr. SPECTER. And what sort of crowds were along the way?

Mr. GREER. There was large crowds--at some places there was quite large crowds.

Mr. SPECTER. Did anything unusual occur en route from Love Field to the downtown area of Dallas?

Mr. GREER. Well, I think--it may have been--we may have stopped one time where he got out--didn't get out, but he stopped and spoke to some young people, I believe, en route. I think there may have been a group of people there.

Mr. SPECTER. I hand you a photograph which has already been marked Commission Exhibit No. 347 and ask you if at this time you are able to identify what that photograph depicts.

Mr. GREER. Yes, sir. That is the photograph of the route that we traveled in Dallas.

Mr. SPECTER. I show you a photograph marked Commission Exhibit No. 348 and ask you if you can identify what that picture represents.

Mr. GREER. With pictures that I have seen since then, I would recognize that as the Book Depository Building in Dallas--the street in front of it.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you familiar with the name of this street, which has since been marked by Mr. Kellerman, who identified this exhibit and marked the name of the street on it?

Mr. GREER. No, I wasn't at the time, but I know now that it is supposed to be Main Street.

Mr. SPECTER. And do you know in what general direction Main Street proceeds?

Mr. GREER. I am not too sure. No; I wouldn't really know. I didn't have enough time.

Mr. SPECTER. And are you familiar with the street which intersects with Main----

Mr. GREER. Houston Street.

Mr. SPECTER. And what street did you turn off of from Houston?

Mr. GREER. Houston to Elm Street.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, as you were proceeding down Main Street, which I will add is in a generally westerly direction, what is your best estimate of your speed as you turned the corner right onto Houston Street?

Mr. GREER. I would estimate the speed was somewhere between 12 to 15 miles per hour, coming through there.

Mr. SPECTER. And as you made that right-hand turn onto Houston Street, what was the composition of the crowds along the way, if any?

Mr. GREER. On Main Street there were very, very large crowds. They were almost close up against the automobile. Sometimes the motorcycles on the sides could not even get through. They were real close to us. And very large crowds. And when we got around on Houston Street, the crowds thinned out quite a lot. My recollection here is that there wasn't too many people on Elm Street--a few scattered people at that point.

Mr. SPECTER. And your finger indicated there the position near the Texas School Depository Building?

Mr. GREER. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, you have described motorcycles. How many were present with the President's automobile, if any?

Mr. GREER. I could not tell the exact amount of motorcycles that were escorting us at that time. We usually do have them on the two front fenders and two rear fenders, and some probably preceding that, and some along the motorcade behind us. I could not tell you exactly how many there probably would be.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recollect that there were some on this occasion, however?

Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; there were motorcycles.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, do you know how many cars back your car was in the motorcade?

Mr. GREER. No; I don't know how many police cars were ahead of us. I knew that the lead car was right directly ahead of me, with one of our agents, or maybe two, and the chief of police in that car. But how many police cars prior to that, I do not know how many there were at the time in front of us.

Mr. SPECTER. How far ahead of you was that police car as you turned off of Main Street onto Houston?

Mr. GREER. I usually allow 4 or 5 car lengths, if possible, between the car and myself, in case that there is any reason to speed up quick. I like to leave enough room that I can get out of there. I don't like to get too tight to the lead car when possible--unless the crowds are so big that I have to get in or they would close in on me--I have to get in closer.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know how far behind you the first car immediately behind yours was?

Mr. GREER. The car behind me was only some few feet, because with our training and all, we stay very, very close to the President's car. Sometimes we are bumper to bumper. And the car never is much more than 10 to 12 feet away from the President's car, at slow speeds.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you endeavor to maintain a constant speed in the operation of the President's car so as to avoid contact with this close gap between the President's car and the President's follow-up automobile?

Mr. GREER. Yes, sir. We tried to drive at a very steady speed. We are used to driving with each other, and we almost can tell each other's thoughts what we do, because of the training we have had, and we work so long together. We drive at a steady pace of speed, so that we give each other enough ample time to stop or move in close.

Mr. SPECTER. After turning off Main onto Houston, did you have any opportunity to take a look at the building which you have since identified as the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. GREER. No, sir. I had not any chance to look much at that building at all. When I made the turn into Elm Street, I was watching the overpass expressway--the overpass, or what was ahead of me. I always look at any--where I go underneath anything, I always watch above, so if there is anyone up there that I can move so that I won't go over the top of anyone, if they are unidentified to me, unless it is a policeman or something like that. We try to avoid going under them.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, when you turned off of Houston onto Elm, did you make a right-hand or a left-hand turn?

Mr. GREER. I made a right-hand turn off of Main onto Houston.

Mr. SPECTER. And when you turned from Houston onto Elm, was that a right-hand or a left-hand turn?

Mr. GREER. That was a left-hand turn.

Mr. SPECTER. And as you turned onto Elm Street, how far, to the best of your ability to estimate, was your automobile from the overpass which you have just described?

Mr. GREER. I wouldn't have a distance recollection at all on how far it was. It wasn't too far. I just could not give you the distance.

Mr. SPECTER. At that time, did you make a conscious effort to observe what was present, if anything, on that overpass?

Mr. GREER. Yes, sir. I was making sure that I could not see anyone that might be standing there, and I didn't see anything that I was afraid of on the overpass.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see anything at all on the overpass?

Mr. GREER. Not that I can now remember.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best recollection of the speed at which you were traveling as you turned left off of Houston onto Elm?

Mr. GREER. My best recollection would be between 12 and 15 miles per hour.

Mr. SPECTER. And how far were you at that time behind the police car which was in front of you?

Mr. GREER. Probably 50 feet maybe--approximately. I will say approximately 50 feet.

Mr. SPECTER. As you turned onto Elm, did you have any opportunity to observe how far behind you the President's follow-up car was?

Mr. GREER. No, sir. I was not looking in my mirror; I could not say how far it was behind me at the time.

Mr. SPECTER. And what was the nature of the crowd as you made the turn onto Elm Street, if you recall?

Mr. GREER. To the best of my memory, the crowd had thinned out a great deal, and there was not too many people in front of that building.

Mr. SPECTER. How many lanes of travel were there on Elm Street?

Mr. GREER. It was either three or four lanes wide. I have forgotten.

Mr. SPECTER. In what portion of the street were you traveling?

Mr. GREER. I was right in the center of the street.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe for us the contour of the street at that point--whether it was level, hilly, or what.

Mr. GREER. It was starting to go down--gradually going down toward this underpass. It was a down grade.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, would you tell us just what occurred as you were proceeding down Elm Street at that time?

Mr. GREER. Well, when we were going down Elm Street, I heard a noise that I thought was a backfire of one of the motorcycle policemen. And I didn't--it did not affect me like anything else. I just thought that it is what it was. We had had so many motorcycles around us. So I heard this noise. And I thought that is what it was. And then I heard it again. And I glanced over my shoulder. And I saw Governor Connally like he was starting to fall. Then I realized there was something wrong. I tramped on the accelerator, and at the same time Mr. Kellerman said to me, "Get out of here fast." And I cannot remember even the other shots or noises that was. I cannot quite remember any more. I did not see anything happen behind me any more, because I was occupied with getting away.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, how many shots, or how many noises have you just described that you heard?

Mr. GREER. I know there was three that I heard--three. But I cannot remember any more than probably three. I know there was three anyway that I heard.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have an independent recollection at this moment of having heard three shots at that time?

Mr. GREER. I knew that after I heard the second one, that is when I looked over my shoulder, and I was conscious that there was something wrong, because that is when I saw Governor Connally. And when I turned around again, to the best of my recollection there was another one, right immediately after.

Mr. SPECTER. To the best of your ability to recollect and estimate, how much time elapsed from the first noise which you have described as being similar to the backfire of a motor vehicle until you heard the second noise?

Mr. GREER. It seems a matter of seconds, I really couldn't say. Three or four seconds.

Mr. SPECTER. How much time elapsed, to the best of your ability to estimate and recollect, between the time of the second noise and the time of the third noise?

Mr. GREER. The last two seemed to be just simultaneously, one behind the other, but I don't recollect just how much, how many seconds were between the two. I couldn't really say.

Mr. SPECTER. Describe as best you can the types of sound of the second report, as distinguished from the first noise which you said was similar to a motorcycle backfire?

Mr. GREER. The second one didn't sound any different much than the first one but I kind of got, by turning around, I don't know whether I got a little concussion of it, maybe when it hit something or not, I may have gotten a little concussion that made me think there was something different to it. But so far as the noise is concerned, I haven't got any memory of any difference in them at all.

Mr. SPECTER. Describe as best you can the sound of the third noise.

Mr. GREER. Just, to me it was similar, to the first two. They all sounded practically the same to me.

Mr. SPECTER. You testified that at the second noise you glanced over your shoulder.

Mr. GREER. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Which shoulder did you glance over?

Mr. GREER. Right shoulder.

Mr. SPECTER. And describe or indicate how far you turned your head to the right at that time?

Mr. GREER. Just so that my eyes over, caught the Governor, I could see, I couldn't see the President. I just could see the Governor. I made a quick glance and back again.

Mr. SPECTER. Was the movement of your head just then approximately the same?

Mr. GREER. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. As the time?

Mr. GREER. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. You just indicated the turn of your head slightly to the right.

Mr. GREER. My eyes slightly more than my head. My eyes went more than my head around. I had vision real quick of it.

Mr. SPECTER. Exactly where was Governor Connally when you first caught him out of the corner of your eye?

Mr. GREER. He was--he seemed to be falling a little bit toward Mrs. Connally, to the left. He started to go over a little bit to the left.

Mr. SPECTER. And how far did you catch his movement during the time you were able to observe him?

Mr. GREER. Just a second. He probably hadn't gotten his shoulder, he hadn't fell down or anything. He probably was in a position such as I am now.

Mr. SPECTER. Did he fall to the rear or to the side or how?

Mr. GREER. In my opinion, he fell toward Mrs. Connally which would be to his left or to his side.

Mr. SPECTER. Did he fall then on his left shoulder and arm or in some other way?

Mr. GREER. He appeared to me to be falling on his left shoulder when I glanced. He had only started to move that way whenever he--when I saw him.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to see anything of President Kennedy as you glanced to the rear?