Part 16

As we landed in Andrews Air Force Base, I was met by our Chief, Mr. James Rowley, who informed me that Mr. Sibert and Mr. O'Neill of the FBI would join me at the Naval Hospital and to allow them in. I also informed him that the vehicles--that is, the President's car and our Secret Service followup car--are en route to Washington from Dallas, and that he should assign some members from our Washington field office to go over these cars for any evidence that might be left. In the morgue, I should say that Special Agent Greer and myself remained all night, Mr. O'Leary only briefly.

Mr. SPECTER. Where did the----

Mr. KELLERMAN. The family was placed----

Mr. SPECTER. Where did the family go?

Mr. KELLERMAN. They were placed in a room in the tower section of the Naval Hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you actually accompany the body from the vehicle to the morgue room?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And were you present during the entire autopsy?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Tell us in a general way----

Mr. KELLERMAN. I only left on three different occasions.

Mr. SPECTER. For how long were you absent on those occasions?

Mr. KELLERMAN. A minute or two to make a phone call.

Mr. SPECTER. While the autopsy was in session, or when did you leave on those three occasions?

Mr. KELLERMAN. OK. First I was informed by a Navy personnel that I should call Mr. Rowley. There wasn't any phone--there was a phone in the room, but I wasn't aware of it at the time. So, I left and walked out into the corridor and called him. This was my first knowledge that they had found a projectile. The second call, I think I called home; that was my first call to home and that was it.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, the projectile that you just referred to was found where?

Mr. KELLERMAN. This was the projectile that was reportedly given to our Special Agent Richard Johnsen as we were leaving the hospital in Dallas.

Mr. SPECTER. How did you find out about that?

Mr. KELLERMAN. He says it was given to him by a security man or security officer in the hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. When did you first hear about it?

Mr. KELLERMAN. The phone call with Mr. Rowley that morning after we had got to the morgue.

Mr. SPECTER. What time was this?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I am only guessing; 9 o'clock in the evening.

Mr. SPECTER. Nine o'clock in the evening. You had said morning; you didn't mean morning; you meant 9 o'clock in the evening when you had a telephone call. From whom was the call again?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Mr. Rowley, Chief of Secret Service.

Mr. SPECTER. You got the phone call from Mr. Rowley?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Who had called him, if you know?

Mr. KELLERMAN. This I don't know.

Mr. SPECTER. But at that time Chief Rowley advised of the detection of the bullet on the stretcher and brought you up to date with what information was known at that time?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, have you described all the times that you were absent from the room of the autopsy?

Mr. KELLERMAN. The only other time that I was absent was when the autopsy was about completed before the funeral directors were in, and it was my decision to get Mr. Hill down and view this man for all the damage that was done; so I went up to the floor where they were at and brought him down and he inspected the incisions.

Mr. SPECTER. What was your reason for that, Mr. Kellerman?

Mr. KELLERMAN. More witnesses, Mr. Specter; I think more to view the unfortunate happenings it would be a little better.

Mr. SPECTER. What time did that autopsy start, as you recollect it?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Immediately. Immediately after we brought him right in.

Mr. SPECTER. What time was that approximately, if you have a recollection?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I don't have a recollection.

Mr. SPECTER. What time did it end, if you recollect?

Mr. KELLERMAN. We left the hospital for the White House at 3:56 in the morning.

Mr. SPECTER. 3:56 a.m. on November 23?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did the autopsy last all that time?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No. They were going to give these people a couple of hours that they worked on them.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, did you observe, during the course of the autopsy, bullet fragments which you might describe as little stars?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, of the numerous X-rays that were taken mainly of the skull, the head. The reason for it was that through all the probing which these gentlemen were trying to pick up little pieces of evidence in the form of shell fragments, they were unable to locate any. From the X-rays, when you placed the X-ray up against the light the whole head looked like a little mass of stars, there must have been 30, 40 lights where these pieces were so minute that they couldn't be reached. However, all through this series of X-rays this was the one that they found, through X-ray that was above the right eye, and they removed that.

Mr. SPECTER. How big a piece was that above the right eye, would you say?

Mr. KELLERMAN. The tip of a matchhead, a little larger.

Senator COOPER. Let me ask a few questions. Mr. Kellerman, from what you have just said, I think it would be correct that from the time you began to assist in removing President Kennedy from his car to the time you left him in the emergency room that you never saw any bullet on a stretcher, either his stretcher or Governor Connally's stretcher?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I never saw any bullet, sir.

Senator COOPER. I believe you testified that, at the time you heard this first report, the President's car was approaching a viaduct?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Approaching, yes, but quite a little distance from it, sir.

Senator COOPER. Can you make any estimate as to how far away it was.

Mr. KELLERMAN. I don't know the footage, Senator Cooper.

Senator COOPER. Can you see it?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; oh, yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. Can you see the viaduct plainly?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Oh, yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. Could you tell whether anybody was standing on top of the viaduct, or did you observe?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I didn't notice anybody up there at all, sir.

Senator COOPER. Did you observe whether anyone was in the immediate vicinity of the viaduct?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Not at this distance; no.

Senator COOPER. Do you have any--at the time of the shots, at the time that you were conscious of these shots being fired, do you have any judgment as to from what direction they came?

Mr. KELLERMAN. None whatsoever. Except I should say again that when this first one went off, which I indicated here that it sounded like a firecracker to my right and, say, rear, I looked to my right to see what it was.

Senator COOPER. Then it would be correct to say it was your judgment at the time, at the time of the report----

Mr. KELLERMAN. It was my judgment, sir.

Senator COOPER. That it was to the right and to the rear?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That would be correct. It was my judgment, sir.

Senator COOPER. Did you observe any persons standing to the right of the car?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Maybe a handful.

Senator COOPER. Did you see anything to indicate that any shot had been fired by those persons?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir; not at the time.

Senator COOPER. When you heard the report and turned, could you see this building known as the Texas Book Depository?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Not by name. You could see the building because we passed right in front of it, sir.

Senator COOPER. You didn't know it as the Texas Depository Building?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Not then, no, sir.

Senator COOPER. Have you any idea how--what distance the President's car traveled from the time you heard the first report until the time you have described as hearing the flurry of shots?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I really don't know the distance. It wasn't too far.

Senator COOPER. What?

Mr. KELLERMAN. It wasn't too far.

Mr. SPECTER. For the record, I have some more questions when we reconvene.

Senator COOPER. We will recess then until 2 o'clock.

(Whereupon, at 12:35 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)

Afternoon Session

TESTIMONY OF ROY H. KELLERMAN, SPECIAL AGENT, SECRET SERVICE, RESUMED

The President's Commission reconvened at 2 p.m.

Representative FORD. The Commission will come to order.

Will you proceed, Mr. Specter?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes, thank you. Mr. Kellerman, immediately before the luncheon recess, Senator Cooper had asked some questions relating to the presence of anyone on the triple overpass which was in front of the President's car. Did you have any occasion, immediately before or immediately after the shooting, to look for anyone on the triple overpass or in that vicinity?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I really didn't.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you in a position to state, then, whether there was or was not someone on the triple overpass?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I am in no position to state that.

Mr. SPECTER. At the time of the shooting, did you observe any bullets ricochet off of the windshield or off of any other part of the automobile?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No. If any of the bullets ricocheted off the windshield or front part of the car, this would have been matter that was blown over mine and the driver's head from, I would say, the explosion of President Kennedy's head.

Mr. SPECTER. But aside from the portions of President Kennedy's head which you have already testified about, you observed nothing detectable as being bullet fragments or bullets?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Ricocheting off any part of the car?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you ever observe any bullet fragments in the car at rest after the shooting?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe a priest at Parkland Hospital?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; there were two.

Mr. SPECTER. And approximately what time were they present at the hospital?

Mr. KELLERMAN. When we brought President Kennedy into the emergency room, the request for a priest was made immediately by one of the members of the staff. I do not recall who called for one. However, in the interim, a second call was sent out. Consequently, two showed; not at the same time, but one after the other.

Mr. SPECTER. How long were they at the hospital?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Just a matter of a couple of minutes of time.

Mr. SPECTER. And do you know where they went upon arrival at the hospital?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. They went right in the emergency room with the President.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you in the emergency room at the time they were there?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And do you know what services, if any, they performed while they were there?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any conversations with either of them while they were en route, either coming or going?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. With respect to the state of readiness of Parkland Hospital at your arrival, how long after you got there were stretcher bearers at the front door?

Mr. KELLERMAN. To the best of my knowledge, there were no stretcher bearers at the car--none.

Mr. SPECTER. At your arrival?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did some come shortly after you arrived?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, what sequence did follow with respect to the arrival of the stretchers?

Mr. KELLERMAN. When we arrived at the hospital, I had called to the agents to go inside and get two stretchers on wheels. Between those people and police officers who also entered the emergency room, they brought the stretchers out. I did not at any time see a man in a white uniform outside, indicating a medical person.

Mr. SPECTER. When did you first see the first indication of a doctor?

Mr. KELLERMAN. When we got in the emergency room itself proper.

Mr. SPECTER. And do you know which doctor that was?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Not by name or sight; no, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. How many doctors did you see at that time?

Mr. KELLERMAN. The room was full.

Mr. SPECTER. Who were the individuals who brought the stretchers on wheels, if you know?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Agents who were in the followup car, police officers who were ahead of us on motorcycles.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman, did you state how long the autopsy lasted when you testified this morning?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I didn't. However, this is going to be an assumption on time; I think I can pin it pretty well.

Mr. SPECTER. Give us your best estimate on that, please.

Mr. KELLERMAN. Let's come back to the period of our arrival at Andrews Air Force Base, which was 5:58 p.m. at night. By the time it took us to take the body from the plane into the ambulance, and a couple of carloads of staff people who followed us, we may have spent 15 minutes there. And in driving from Andrews to the U.S. Naval Hospital, I would judge, a good 45 minutes. So there is 7 o'clock. We went immediately over, without too much delay on the outside of the hospital, into the morgue. The Navy people had their staff in readiness right then. There wasn't anybody to call. They were all there. So at the latest, 7:30, they began to work on the autopsy. And, as I said, we left the hospital at 3:56 in the morning. Let's give the undertaker people 2 hours. So they were through at 2 o'clock in the morning. I would judge offhand that they worked on the autopsy angle 4-1/2, 5 hours.

Mr. SPECTER. And were you present when the funeral director's personnel were preparing the body?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I was; yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And about what time, then, did they complete their work?

Mr. KELLERMAN. They were all through at 3:30.

Mr. SPECTER. And what did you do immediately after they completed their work?

Mr. KELLERMAN. All right. Our communication between the Kennedy family and staff, who were on another floor in the hospital, was in this regard. We had telephone communication whereby we would tell them if the body is ready to be taken out of the morgue and into the ambulance. And they would hit the elevator and come right out the same way. So the 5 minutes it took to load the people in, we left the hospital morgue part at least at 3:50, and, as I say, we were off at 3:56, driving to the White House.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you go directly to the White House?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; we did.

Mr. SPECTER. Did that complete your tour of duty for that day?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; it did.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, with respect to the time you were present at the autopsy, was there any conversation of any sort concerning the possibility of a point of entry from the front of the President's body?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No.

Mr. SPECTER. You have testified about the impression you had as to the source of the first shot, which sounded to you like a firecracker. Did you have any impression as to the source of the other shots, which you described as being a flurry?

Mr. KELLERMAN. If you will excuse me just a minute. I was trying to elaborate on the last question.

Mr. SPECTER. Pardon me. Go ahead.

Mr. KELLERMAN. Just for the record, I wish to have this down. While the President is in the morgue, he is lying flat. And with the part of the skull removed, and the hole in the throat, nobody was aware until they lifted him up that there was a hole in his shoulder. That was the first concrete evidence that they knew that the man was hit in the back first.

Mr. SPECTER. When did they lift him up and first observe the hole in the shoulder?

Mr. KELLERMAN. They had been working on him for quite some time, Mr. Specter--through the photos and other things they do through an autopsy. And I believe it was this Colonel Finck who raised him and there was a clean hole.

Mr. SPECTER. What was said, if anything, by those present at the autopsy concerning the wound in the throat?

Mr. KELLERMAN. To go back just a little further, the reason for the hole in the throat, the tracheotomy; I am thinking they were of the opinion that when the--when he was shot in the head, and they had found this piece remaining above the eye underneath; I am sure there was some concern as to where the outlet was, and whether they considered--this is all an assumption now; whether they considered this--that there was a hole here in the throat prior to the tracheotomy, I don't know. But to complete the examination, they lifted him up by the shoulders, and there was this hole. Now, I think you asked me a question. Could you repeat it, please?

Mr. SPECTER. Well, let's be sure that we have your final answer on the question of any conversation at all about a point of entry in the front part of his body, in his throat, or any place else.

Mr. KELLERMAN. I don't believe, Mr. Specter, that it was ever concluded that there was an entry in the front.

Mr. SPECTER. Then that completes the conversations at the autopsy?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. On any of the subjects I have asked you about?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Right.

Mr. SPECTER. The question which I had then started to ask you was whether you had any impression at the time of the second and third shots, which you described as a flurry of shots, as to the point of origin or source of those shots.

Mr. KELLERMAN. The only answer I can give to that is that they would have to come from the rear.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, is that the impression or reaction you had at the time of the flurry?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever, since the time of the assassination to this date, had any contrary impression, reaction, or view that the shots came from the front of the President?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, Mr. Kellerman, with respect to the immediate reaction by you to the emergency situation, did you consider at any time leaving your seat, on the right front of the President's automobile, to go into the rear portion, where the President sat?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is the basis for--or what was the basis for your conclusion on that?

Mr. KELLERMAN. After I had heard President Kennedy's voice say, "My God, I am hit," I viewed him, which was enough for me that he was. My decision was to get this man to a hospital, because he needed medical treatment. And during the few seconds that I instructed the driver to get out of here, we are hit, my second instruction was to the man in the lead car ahead of us for the same, to lead us to a hospital, that we are hit. I then turn around, and I had two people injured. Not only was the President down in his seat; the Governor was down in his seat. My presence back there was gone. On top of that, I had Mr. Hill lying across that trunk.

Mr. SPECTER. What do you mean when you say, sir, that your presence back there was gone?

Mr. KELLERMAN. They were comfortable, if there is a comfort in this. Mr. Hill was taking care of Mrs. Kennedy. Mrs. Connally was over the Governor; there was no motion. The next thing was a doctor, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you consider presenting a further shield for the President at that time?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did the metallic handhold which you described early in your testimony as being about 15 inches off the top of the seat and going all the way across the width of the car, did that metal structure present any substantial impediment to your moving from the front seat to the rear seat of the automobile?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Mr. Specter, I think it would have been a small obstacle. However, let me say this: If I thought in my own mind that I was needed back there, there wouldn't have been an obstacle strong enough to hold me.

Mr. SPECTER. How about the presence of Governor Connally in the jump seat? Would the presence of Governor Connally or any passenger in the jump seat provide a substantial obstacle to your moving from your seat to shield the President's body?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Not at all. It wouldn't have made any difference, sir. Why? Because my job is to protect the President, sir, regardless of the obstacles.

Mr. SPECTER. Did Mr. Greer at any time use the radio in your car?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman, did the President's automobile at any time slow down after the first shot?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No; not that I recall.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chairman, that completes our questions, sir.

Representative FORD. As you turned from Houston onto Elm, you were then facing the triple overpass?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. You were looking forward at the time?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes.

Representative FORD. You were not looking to the side particularly, or back at all?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Don't let me change your thought, Mr. Congressman. But as we turned left on Elm, there is also another curve before you get to this overpass.

Representative FORD. A rather slight curve to the right?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Very much. I still knew there was an overpass.

Representative FORD. But your concentration was ahead?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Ahead.

Representative FORD. Not to the side or to the rear?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No; not to the rear especially; that is true. Let me explain a little more. When you are riding in this automobile, which is with him, and on your right side, naturally you are observing more on the right. It is obvious. However, you still have time periodically to glance over to the left for viewing anything that might be of a danger--whether it is people or any other object.

Representative FORD. There is no way you would know from personal observation in what direction the President was looking at the time he was hit by the first shot?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right; I would not.

Representative FORD. Could you outline for us here the process by which you were put in charge of this particular operation?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes.

Representative FORD. Can you outline for us the procedure that is followed in such cases?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, indeed. As I said earlier, we have three people, for a better word, in charge of the White House detail. Mr. Behn--Gerald Behn--is the special agent in charge. There are two assistants, Floyd Boring and myself. On all trips this was a divided matter. And this one was my trip. Not that I picked it or anything. It was my trip that Mr. Behn said, "You will make this one with the President." The other two people would have other duties to do. And this is how it fell on to me for that day, sir.

Representative FORD. Once this assignment is made by Mr. Behn, what happens after that?

Mr. KELLERMAN. In regard to who, sir?

Representative FORD. To your responsibilities.

Mr. KELLERMAN. The overall.

Representative FORD. In other words, from that assignment by Mr. Behn, you take charge; you execute; you make assignments and so forth?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Only one thing. I am not going to say that I don't make assignments. Mr. Congressman, these people all work in a team form. We have three shifts. They work together for a long time, and to say this, that they knew each other's footprints, is probably an overstatement. But they know each other's methods. Let me go back just one step further. I want to give it clear to you.

Let's say the four or five stops that we had in Texas on this visit--we had one overnight in Fort Worth. All right. Each time, each stop that we make, the individual that we had sent out ahead to set up and coordinate the program with the people in that area, whether it is security or otherwise, through communications for the days he is away, he keeps us abreast of what is going on, who to expect, and so forth.

And, again, I should say that in the morning of the 22d in Fort Worth, this lad called me--Mr. Lawson--asked about the top, whether it should remain on or off, which decision was reached from Mr. O'Donnell. I then asked him--I said, "Are we going to be all right in Dallas?" He said, "Oh, yes; it is a good program." Fine. If and when we ever arrived at that spot, I would ask this man, is there anything unusual when we get here. That is a general question that I have given these people all the time.

Representative FORD. In other words, once the assignment has been made that you handle this trip, and in this case there was first a stop at El Paso, then at Houston----

Mr. KELLERMAN. San Antonio.