Part 15

"He"--and this obviously refers to you--"advised that he heard a shot and immediately turned around looking past Governor Connally who was seated directly in back of him, to the President. He observed the President slumped forward and heard him say 'get me to a hospital.' Mr. Kellerman then heard Mrs. Kennedy say, 'Oh, no,' as the President leaned toward her." That is the end of the quotation. My question is: Did you hear him; did you hear President Kennedy say, "Get me to a hospital"?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you hear Mrs. Kennedy say, "Oh, no"?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any knowledge or explanation as to why you would have been so quoted in the report of the FBI?

Mr. KELLERMAN. When these two gentlemen talked to me, I don't know where they got those quotes, because the only two things that I told them, they were interested in what I heard from the people in the back seat, and one said "my God, I have been hit," which was President Kennedy, and Mrs. Kennedy said, "What are they doing to you?"

Mr. SPECTER. You were interviewed, however, by Mr. O'Neill and Mr. Sibert on November 22, 1963?

Mr. KELLERMAN. November what?

Mr. SPECTER. November 22.

Mr. KELLERMAN. No. November 22 is when they were in the morgue with me. They interviewed me in the office that--it was around the 27th. This was after the funeral.

Mr. SPECTER. Did they have any conversation with you about these events in the morgue?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Not that I recall, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have a discussion with either of those gentlemen about anything while you were at the morgue on November 22?

Mr. KELLERMAN. The only thing I can recall discussionwise--I just forget which one it was, one of the two--this was before we even knew that a shell had been found from the hole in the President's shoulder. We couldn't determine what happened to it. They couldn't find it in the morgue; they couldn't find any leeway as to whatever happened to the shell when it hit the President's shoulder; where did it go. So our contention was that while he was on the stretcher in Dallas, and the neurosurgeon was working over him no doubt with pressure on the heart, this thing worked itself out.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say "our contention," what do you mean by that?

Mr. KELLERMAN. One of these agents--I forget which one it was; it could have been Sibert or O'Neill, but I am not sure.

Mr. SPECTER. Did what?

Mr. KELLERMAN. We--our discussion or my discussion.

Mr. SPECTER. You had a discussion and when you say "our contention" by that do you mean that was the conclusion you came to?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Conclusion--that is right, sir--as to where this bullet went into the shoulder and where did it go.

Mr. SPECTER. While you are on that subject, was there any conversation at the time of the autopsy on that matter itself?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Very much so.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you relate to the Commission the nature of that conversation and the parties to it?

Mr. KELLERMAN. There were three gentlemen who were performing this autopsy. A Colonel Finck--during the examination of the President, from the hole that was in his shoulder, and with a probe, and we were standing right alongside of him, he is probing inside the shoulder with his instrument and I said, "Colonel, where did it go?" He said, "There are no lanes for an outlet of this entry in this man's shoulder."

Mr. SPECTER. Did you say anything in response to that?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I said, "Colonel, would it have been possible that while he was on the stretcher in Dallas that it works itself out?" And he said, "Yes."

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any additional conversation between you and Colonel Finck at that time?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Not on that point; no, sir; not on that point.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any conversation of any sort between you and Colonel Finck which would be helpful to us here?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Well, from Humes, who was the other gentleman out there, from the entry of the skull, from this hole here.

Mr. SPECTER. You are now referring to the hole which you describe being below the missing part of the skull?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; it was confirmed that the entry of the shell here went right through the top and removed that piece of the skull.

Mr. SPECTER. And who confirmed that?

Mr. KELLERMAN. One of the three gentlemen; I don't recall.

Mr. SPECTER. You don't recall which one, but it was one of the three doctors doing the autopsy?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right.

Mr. SPECTER. So you are saying it confirmed that the hole that was below the piece of skull that was removed, was the point of entry of the one bullet which then passed up through the head and took off the skull?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Right, sir. That is correct.

Mr. SPECTER. Then that was all done by one bullet, based on what you are telling us at this moment?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right.

Mr. SPECTER. From the confirmation that one of the three doctors made?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, was there any other conversation between you and Colonel Finck or Commander Humes----

Mr. KELLERMAN. No.

Mr. SPECTER. At that time, which was important on the subject we are discussing?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Actually, from all the X-rays that were taken, and we viewed them all together; when I say "we," I am saying the medical people who were in the morgue at the time, the two Bureau agents, myself, and also Mr. Greer, who was in there with me, naturally, they were looking for pieces of fragmentation of this bullet. There was none; only one piece to my knowledge. That was removed inside above the eye, the right eye.

Mr. SPECTER. You have now told us all about the conversations between you and Colonel Finck and Commander Humes and anyone else at the autopsy which are important on the positions of the hole and the wounds in the head?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Right, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any other conversation with either Special Agent O'Neill or Special Agent Sibert of the FBI on November 22, 1963, other than your conversations about the wounds on President Kennedy?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman, while we are discussing this in relationship to your conversations with Special Agents O'Neill and Sibert, were there any other comments made by anybody else present at the autopsy about the path of the bullet into Mr. Kennedy's back, relating to whether there was any point of exit or anything of that sort?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Colonel Finck did all the talking, sir. He was the only one.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, have you told us everything Colonel Finck said about that subject?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Very much so; yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. So that there is nothing that was said on that subject other than what you have already told us about?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No; that is right.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman, I have read to you a part of what Special Agents O'Neill and Sibert have attributed to you in an interview which they have written about on November 22, 1963. Referring to that in the portion which I have read to you and which I will reread, I want you to direct your attention to the issue about which way you turned. The report states, "He advised he heard a shot and immediately turned around looking past Governor Connally who was seated directly in back of him to the President."

Now, did that describe a turn to the right or to the left? This is a difficult question. Let me interject one thing. We are presupposing here, based on your testimony, that you did not discuss with Special Agents O'Neill or Sibert these specific events on November 22, to the best of your recollection as we sit here today.

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right.

Mr. SPECTER. So that the question really goes to a situation where perhaps they have an inaccurate day or your recollection is inaccurate as to some of the things you might have told them. So, my prefatory question would be whether that is an accurate statement and is something you told them at some time.

Mr. KELLERMAN. I don't believe I did. I think I will stand on my original statement.

Representative FORD. The original statement you made here today?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; very much.

Mr. SPECTER. So that the statement I just read to you, so far as your best----

Mr. KELLERMAN. I can't----

Mr. SPECTER. So far as your best testimony is at this time, it was simply not made by you on November 22?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. All right, now. Was that statement I just read to you, the short one about your turn, to the best of your recollection at this moment, did you ever make that statement to Special Agents O'Neill and/or Sibert?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Mr. Specter, everybody I have talked to I have always turned to the right when I first heard the noise. I turned to my left to view the people in my back seat because it is a more comfortable position. So I don't think the turning is correct, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you say the report is incorrect?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right.

Representative FORD. May I ask--you have viewed these colored motion pictures which were taken during the assassination. Have you looked at those to see what your own actions were during this period of time?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. Do they coincide with what you have testified to here today?

Mr. KELLERMAN. They certainly do.

Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you a photograph marked Commission Exhibit No. 352, and ask you if you can tell us what that picture represents?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; this was the rear seat of the President's car, sir, after all the occupants were removed.

Mr. SPECTER. And when did the rear seat of the President's car look like the picture 352?

Mr. KELLERMAN. After all the occupants were removed on the 22d of November.

Mr. SPECTER. When the car was parked at Parkland Hospital?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I don't know where this picture was taken, sir. This could have been taken in the White House garage.

Mr. SPECTER. Yes; but aside from where the picture was taken, is that the way the car looked at the time it was at Parkland Hospital after President Kennedy and Governor Connally were removed from the car?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe for the written record very briefly what this picture shows?

Mr. KELLERMAN. The picture shows the complete rear seat of the Presidential limousine.

Mr. SPECTER. What, if anything, is on the rear seat?

Mr. KELLERMAN. On the seat part of this car is splattered with blood; there are a few petals of flowers, and the back seat cushion part is pretty well bloodied up.

Mr. SPECTER. I move for the introduction in evidence of Commission Exhibit No. 352.

Representative FORD. So admitted.

(The photograph referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 352 for identification, and received in evidence.)

Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you, through the Chairman, Commission Exhibit No. 353, move its admission into evidence, and ask you to tell us what this depicts.

Mr. KELLERMAN. This is the same Presidential vehicle after the occupants have been removed from the rear seat. It shows the--a goodly amount of blood that had remained on the cushion and back part of the seat and also little flower petals.

Mr. SPECTER. Is Exhibit No. 353 an accurate representation of the way the rear seat of the President's automobile looked after----

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. After President Kennedy and Governor Connally were removed to Parkland Hospital.

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; it is.

Mr. SPECTER. You have described in answers to previous questions what occurred upon the arrival at Parkland of the President's automobile. What action, if any, did you take immediately after President Kennedy and Governor Connally were taken into the hospital?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I believe we had got to the point where I had made this phone call to Washington to alert these people back here of the incident.

Mr. SPECTER. And proceeding from that point?

Mr. KELLERMAN. From this point, the agents who were in this followup car had joined me in the emergency room. They took up security posts at entrance into the emergency room to keep it clear of all people except medical people. The only people allowed in there would be workers. After this was done, Special Agent Kinney came to me and asked permission to remove the President's car and our followup car to the airport, to load it aboard this aircraft for shipment to Washington, and I said, "Yes."

At that time the next move was Special Agent Warren Taylor, who was assigned to the then Vice President Johnson, came to me and he said, "Mr. Johnson wants to talk to you." So, I followed him into this room that they had the Johnson party in. He asked me the condition of President Kennedy, which I told him that President Kennedy is still in the emergency room, his condition is serious. He then said, "You let me know of any developments."

I then returned to the emergency room. By that time another shift of agents, who were at the Trade Mart on duty for prior to our arrival, reported into the emergency room. This is what is called as our afternoon shift, the 4 to 12. Mr. Roberts, whose group was on the followup car in the motorcade through Dallas, was the 8-to-4 shift. The 4-to-12 shift then was under the supervision of Mr. Stewart Stout. I then instructed Mr. Roberts to take his shift, which were the day people, and join Special Agent Rufus Youngblood and stay with Vice President Johnson.

Mr. SPECTER. How many agents were they to take with them?

Mr. KELLERMAN. They took the entire followup car, which would mean that they had Roberts, Ready, Bennett, McIntyre; those four.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know where they went or what specifically they did by way of establishing security for Vice President Johnson?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I really don't.

Mr. SPECTER. What was your next activity?

Mr. KELLERMAN. My next move, then, my next part in this was--by this time it was after 1 o'clock--I am trying to pinpoint time--after 1, because Dr. Burkley said that the President had died; it was after 1 o'clock. By this time other people who were in with Mr. Kennedy, such as his staff--I am speaking of Mr. O'Donnell, Mr. Powers, I believe Larry O'Brien--through them, and I believe Mr. Hill, they had obtained a casket from one of the funeral people in town.

Mr. SPECTER. Where had Mrs. Kennedy been during this time?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Mrs. Kennedy was right outside the door to the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. How long, if at all, was she inside the emergency room with President Kennedy?

Mr. KELLERMAN. This I can't truly answer. However, I should say that, as for the casket being brought into the hospital, another gentleman came into this little doctor's room, his name I don't recall, but he represented himself to be from the Health Department or commission, some form. He said to me, he said, "There has been a homicide here, you won't be able to remove the body. We will have to take it down there to the mortuary and have an autopsy." I said, "No, we are not." And he said, "We have a law here whereby you have to comply with it."

With that Dr. Burkley walked in, and I said, "Doctor, this man is from some health unit in town. He tells me we can't remove this body." The Doctor became a little enraged; he said, "We are removing it." He said, "This is the President of the United States and there should be some consideration in an event like this." And I told this gentleman, I said, "You are going to have to come up with something a little stronger than you to give me the law that this body can't be removed."

So, he frantically called everybody he could think of and he hasn't got an answer; nobody is home. Shortly he leaves this little room and it seems like a few minutes he is back and he has another gentleman with him, and he said, "This is"--the name escapes me--he said, "He is a judge here in Dallas," and he said, "He will tell you whether you can remove this body or not." I said, "It doesn't make any difference. We are going to move it," and I said, "Judge, do you know who I am?"

And he said, "Yes," and I said, "There must be something in your thinking here that we don't have to go through this agony; the family doesn't have to go through this. We will take care of the matter when we get back to Washington." The poor man looked at me and he said, "I know who you are," and he said, "I can't help you out." I said, "All right, sir." But then I happened to look to the right and I can see the casket coming on rollers, and I just left the room and let it out through the emergency entrance and we got to the ambulance and put it in, shut the door after Mrs. Kennedy and General McHugh and Clinton Hill in the rear part of this ambulance.

I am looking around for Mr. Greer and I don't spot him directly because I want to get out of here in a hurry, and I recognize Agent Berger and I said, "Berger, you get in the front seat and drive and, Mr. Stout, you get in the middle and I will set on this side," and as we are leaving--Mr. Lawson, I should say, was in a police car that led us away from Parkland Memorial Hospital. As we are leaving a gentleman taps on the driver's window and they roll it down and he says, "I will meet you at the mortuary." "Yes, sir." We went to the airport, gentlemen.

Mr. SPECTER. Who said, "Yes, sir"?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I did, sir. We went to the airport. In the meantime, Mr. Johnson had been taken to the airplane. They had secured the airport; nobody was there. They had removed seats off the rear part of the plane so we could put the body and the casket in it. As we got to the airport the ramp was there; we opened the door, and we moved the casket out and walked it right up to the plane.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any further difficulty of any sort----

Mr. KELLERMAN. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Imposed by any Texas officials on the removal of the body?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir. Whatever happened to the hearse, I don't know. I never left the plane.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe----

Mr. KELLERMAN. We left the hospital; we have a time on that; it is 4 minutes after 2. It is about a 10-minute ride to the airplane.

Mr. SPECTER. On the question of timing, pinning down these times as best we can, how long did it take you to get from the shooting incident to the time you arrived at Parkland, based on your best estimates?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Mr. Specter, it seemed like hours, but we flew there, I honestly don't know. I can't really tell you.

Mr. SPECTER. What is the best estimate of the speed of your vehicle en route from the shooting to the hospital?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I don't know.

Senator COOPER. Let the record show that Congressman Ford has to go to his official duties in the House and that I, Senator Cooper, am now acting as Chairman.

(At this point, Representative Ford left the hearing room.)

Senator COOPER. Go ahead.

Mr. SPECTER. Moving ahead, then, on to the sequences of time as best you can recollect them, Mr. Kellerman, at what time was it ascertained that the President had died and what was the basis of the pronouncement of death.

Mr. KELLERMAN. That was on the death certificate, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you learn at or about 1 o'clock, while you were at Parkland Hospital, that he had died?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I would think so. However, at that time let me say that I wasn't watching any clock too closely and this time was given to me by Dr. Burkley.

Mr. SPECTER. Then you have no independent recollection of time at Parkland when the death was announced or pronounced?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, then, you have specified the time of departure from Parkland Hospital and en route back to Love Field at what, sir?

Mr. KELLERMAN. We departed at 4 minutes after 2 from Parkland.

Mr. SPECTER. What time did you arrive at the President's plane?

Mr. KELLERMAN. 2:14.

Mr. SPECTER. What were your next activities?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Our next time, we had waited until Judge Sarah Hughes had arrived for the swearing-in ceremonies.

Mr. SPECTER. What time did the swearing-in ceremonies occur?

Mr. KELLERMAN. 2:37 p.m.

Mr. SPECTER. And what time did the plane depart from Dallas?

Mr. KELLERMAN. We left at 2:48.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you present during the swearing-in ceremonies?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. In a general way, tell us who else was present there, recognizing that you don't know all the people there.

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes. President Johnson, Mrs. Johnson, Mrs. Kennedy, Malcolm Kilduff. He was the press secretary for that trip. Congressman Thornberry, Congressman Thomas, Marie Fehmer, Mrs. Evelyn Lincoln, Jack Valenti, Bill Moyers, Special Agent Johns. There was another congressional man--I believe his name was Congressman Roberts--Brooks; I am sorry; Congressman Brooks. The picture was taken by Capt. Cecil Stoughton and myself.

Mr. SPECTER. What time did the President's plane arrive back at the Washington area?

Mr. KELLERMAN. May I look at my notes, sir?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes, you may. Identify for us, if you will, what notes you are referring to.

Mr. KELLERMAN. 5:58 p.m. This is my report.

Mr. SPECTER. Let the record show that Mr. Kellerman has just referred to a four-page report dated November 29, 1963, entitled "The Assassination of President John F. Kennedy on November 22, 1963, at Dallas, Tex.," which is a copy of a report he made, three of the sheets being carbon copies, and one being a photostatic reproduction. So that our record may be complete, let the record show that this is the same report which Mr. Kellerman submitted to the Secret Service which was, in turn, submitted by the Secret Service to the Commission, as one of the statements in Exhibit 12, statement 11, which was furnished by the Secret Service to the Commission as the report of the U.S. Secret Service on the assassination of President Kennedy, under the exhibits section. I will return that to you.

Mr. KELLERMAN. Fine; thank you.

Mr. SPECTER. What were your activities; specifically where did you land in the Washington area?

Mr. KELLERMAN. We landed at Andrews Air Force Base.

Mr. SPECTER. What were your activities then, immediately after landing at Andrews?

Mr. KELLERMAN. While en route from Dallas to Washington, D.C., I had several telephone communications with my special agent in charge, Gerald Behn, concerning this, transportation for the people aboard the plane, an ambulance for the body of President Kennedy, and my instructions. I was instructed to stay with the late President Kennedy. Aboard this plane were agents of the 4-to-12 shift which, as I mentioned earlier, was under the supervision of Mr. Stewart Stout; a conference was held with Mr. Rufus Youngblood, who was in charge of the Johnson detail at that time. He was informed that he would take all the agents under Mr. Stout's supervision and they would remain with them for the remainder of the day. That I would have Special Agents Hill, Landis, Greer, and O'Leary.

As we arrived at Andrews Air Force Base, arrangements were made prior to having a lift brought up to the rear end of the plane, whereby all the agents were requested by Mrs. Kennedy to carry this casket from the plane to the ambulance. It was put aboard this carrier; from there we took it from the carrier into the Navy ambulance. Mrs. Kennedy rode in the back seat, or in the rear part of the ambulance, with Mr. Robert Kennedy and General McHugh.

In the front seat the ambulance was driven by Special Agent Greer, of which Agents Landis and myself and Dr. Burkley rode in the front seat to the U.S. Naval Hospital in Bethesda. At that point Navy officials there instructed us where to take the ambulance, to what part of the building, and remove the casket into the morgue facilities.