Part 14

Mr. SPECTER. On or about November 27, 1963?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is correct.

Mr. SPECTER. Does that picture accurately represent what the windshield looked like on that day when you observed it?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; it is.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any crack in the windshield as the President's automobile was being driven from the point of assassination to the hospital?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I did not.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe it at any time prior to the time you saw the automobile in the White House garage on or before November 27?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I did not, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any occasion to examine closely the windshield after the time of the shooting up until the time you saw it in the White House garage?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, at the time of your examination of the windshield in the White House garage, did you feel the windshield?

Mr. KELLERMAN. On the day that I visited the White House garage and checked this car over for my own personal reasons, and this windshield crack was pointed out to me, I did----

Mr. SPECTER. When you say it was pointed out to you, by whom?

Mr. KELLERMAN. There were other people in the garage, Mr. Specter, like Mr. Kinney, I believe was there at the time, Special Agent Henry Rybka was the other person.

Mr. SPECTER. Was it sufficiently prominent without having to have it pointed out specially?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Oh, yes; very much. And I felt this windshield both inwardly and outwardly to determine first if there was something that was struck from the back of us or--and I was satisfied that it was.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say struck from in back of you, do you mean on the inside or outside of the windshield?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Inside, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Inside of the car?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Right.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to feel the outside of the windshield?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I did on that day; yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you feel, if anything?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Not a thing; it was real smooth.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to feel the inside of the windshield?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I did.

Mr. SPECTER. How did that feel to you?

Mr. KELLERMAN. My comparison was that the broken glass, broken windshield, there was enough little roughness in there from the cracks and split that I was positive, or it was my belief, that whatever hit it came into the inside of the car.

Mr. SPECTER. I move for the admission into evidence of Exhibit No. 350.

Representative FORD. It will be so admitted.

(The document referred to, heretofore marked Commission Exhibit No. 350 for identification, was received in evidence.)

Mr. SPECTER. I now call the attention of the Commission to Exhibit No. 351, which is the windshield itself which, as the Commission may observe, is present in the hearing room. Now, with reference to Exhibit No. 351, which is a marking placed over a glass object, Mr. Kellerman, can you describe for the Commission what that is?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; this windshield, which has since been removed from the vehicle, at the time I first viewed it, this area marked in here was all that was cracked. These are later splints.

Mr. SPECTER. Before you proceed, Mr. Kellerman, do you have knowledge as to the general removal procedure during which this windshield was taken from the President's car?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I believe I do not. However, I believe Mr. Greer would be able to identify it better than I, on the removal side.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe the condition of the windshield in its present state as we are viewing it here this morning?

Mr. KELLERMAN. The windshield this morning has--has been hit by some object with sufficient force----

Mr. SPECTER. Perhaps we ought to start with the point of impact, Mr. Kellerman. First, are you able to positively identify this as the windshield from the President's automobile?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; I would say it was, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Is this the same windshield as depicted in Exhibits 349 and 350?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. All right. Now, starting with the principal point of impact, where does that exist on this windshield?

Mr. KELLERMAN. The principal point of impact is located to the left of the mirror, to the right above the driver's head, and to the right of his, I am going to say, view line.

Mr. SPECTER. As we view the windshield at this time, state whether or not there are spidering lines which have emanated from that point which you have described as the principal point of impact?

Mr. KELLERMAN. The spidering lines which extend in three different directions--you are speaking of the large ones or the others?

Mr. SPECTER. Well, I want to put on this record all of the spidering lines which exist here.

Mr. KELLERMAN. OK; the spidering lines which are in this encircled area reflect, in my opinion, that when the instrument hit this glass it shattered in half a dozen different ways.

Mr. SPECTER. Well now, with respect to the cracks themselves, is there a crack which goes in a generally upwardly direction slanting off in the general direction of the driver?

Mr. KELLERMAN. In the center of this, the impact of the center of this scratch, one goes directly to the top of the windshield.

Mr. SPECTER. On that line itself, is there a further splintering off of that line at another point?

Mr. KELLERMAN. It then continues on a small leg, a straight leg, about 3 inches from the original direction.

Mr. SPECTER. And is there a change of direction at that point, or a bifurcation, dividing it into two parts?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, you have described in a generally upwardly direction of about 3 inches?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And is there not a crack which then extends all the way to the top of the windshield moving, in the direction of the left side of the windshield from the driver facing it?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right. There is a complete crack from this so-called cutoff to the top right of the windshield right above the view line of the driver.

Mr. SPECTER. Taking that from a compass reading, would that be in a generally northeasterly direction?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; northeasterly.

Mr. SPECTER. All right. From a point 3 inches from the center crack, which we described as the principal point of impact, then, does there form a point of crack in a V-direction with the line you have already described?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; there does. There is a small splint, about 2 inches, that heads directly north off from this splinter that goes in a northeasterly direction.

Mr. SPECTER. All right. Now, moving in a clockwise direction.

Mr. KELLERMAN. In a clockwise direction.

Mr. SPECTER. What crack do you observe, if any?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I next observe on the eastward side of this center crack a splint of about 3 inches long, which then makes a sharp veer to the southeast to the bottom of the windshield.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, moving further in a clockwise direction, what crack do you next observe emanating from the central point of impact?

Mr. KELLERMAN. The next crack from the central point of impact extends down about 3 inches, to the southeast, and then veers to a sharp southeast to the bottom of the windshield.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, moving further in a clockwise direction.

Mr. KELLERMAN. From this point----

Mr. SPECTER. Let's continue to move from the central point of impact to finish up what divergent cracks there are from the central point of impact. Is there one other?

Mr. KELLERMAN. There is one other point left. This is completely in a westerly direction about 3 inches from the center of impact, which then veers to the northwest to the top of the windshield.

Mr. SPECTER. Are there other cracks in the windshield?

Mr. KELLERMAN. There is one other splint, which is from the southeasterly leg----

Mr. SPECTER. That would be southwesterly leg.

Mr. KELLERMAN. Southwesterly leg--I am sorry--that drops to within an inch of the bottom of the windshield, whereby another splint travels in a northwesterly direction to about halfway of the windshield.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, have you described all of the visible cracks in the windshield?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That has completed it, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. As you have viewed this windshield, have you looked at it from the outside looking in or the inside looking out?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I have been looking from the outside looking in.

Mr. SPECTER. Where you would have been if you had been, say, on the front hood of the car when the windshield was in place on the automobile?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I would have been--pardon?

Mr. SPECTER. On the hood of the car?

Mr. KELLERMAN. On the hood of the car this would have been facing me as it is sitting here today.

Mr. SPECTER. Have there been any measures taken to protect the outer edges of this windshield in its position here in the hearing room?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes. A form of protective tape has been placed around the entire windshield to protect it, to keep it intact.

Mr. SPECTER. Are there any differences in the cracks on the windshield today as it sits in our hearing room from its condition when you observed it on or about November 27, 1963?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. From the point of impact the four cracks that looked in the four directions were the only ones on this windshield.

Mr. SPECTER. Is there any marking in color or otherwise on that piece of the windshield?

Mr. KELLERMAN. There has been a yellow crayon marking the circumference of these four cracks, apparently before the windshield was removed from the automobile.

Mr. SPECTER. Is that yellow or red?

Mr. KELLERMAN. It is red.

Mr. SPECTER. Were the cracks present within the circumference of that marking present at the time you observed the windshield on or about November 27?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Were any of the other marks present when you observed the windshield on or about November 27?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you at this time feel the outside of the windshield and describe what, if anything, you feel at the point of impact?

Mr. KELLERMAN. The outside markings from the point of impact, the extended lines----

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman. I would like for you at this time to actually touch the outside and tell me, first of all, if it is the same or if it differs in any way from the sense of feel which you noted when you touched it on or about November 27?

Mr. KELLERMAN. As I touch the outside on the impact, it would be the same as I noticed on the 27th of November.

Mr. SPECTER. What do you notice, if anything?

Mr. KELLERMAN. It is a smooth surface without any----

Mr. SPECTER. Without any--finish your answer.

Mr. KELLERMAN. On the inside.

Mr. SPECTER. No; before. It is a smooth surface without any what?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Without any crack lines.

Mr. SPECTER. On the outside?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That can be felt.

Mr. SPECTER. On the outside?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right; on the outside of the windshield.

Mr. SPECTER. Feel the inside and tell us, first of all, whether it is the same or different from the way you touched it on November 27?

Mr. KELLERMAN. On November 27, when I felt the inside of this impact area, I was convinced that I could--that I felt an opening in one of these lines, which was indicative to me that the blow was struck from the inside of the car on this windshield.

Mr. SPECTER. Does it feel the same to you today as it did on or about November 27?

Mr. KELLERMAN. As a matter of fact, it feels rather smooth today.

Mr. SPECTER. It feels somewhat differently today than it felt before?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; it does.

Representative FORD. Could we ask when the red circle was placed on the windshield, if you know?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I do not know.

Mr. SPECTER. With respect to the shattering which existed on or about November 27, which is within the red circle, could that condition have existed on November 22 after the assassination?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Absolutely not. I don't think so.

Mr. SPECTER. What is the reason for your expressing your thought that it could not have existed?

Mr. KELLERMAN. This automobile is never out of sight of any agent, or even a police officer, before it is used--used or afterward. Let me clarify that. The agent that accompanied these cars to Dallas was with the vehicles from the time they left Washington aboard this plane. One of his many duties outside of keeping it, having this car run perfectly, is that all the equipment is in perfect condition.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman, what you are saying, then, is there had been no crack in the windshield prior to the time of the shooting?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is correct.

Mr. SPECTER. My next question is: Did you observe any crack in the windshield after the shooting on November 22?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any occasion to look for or examine for any crack in the windshield after the shooting?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I had no occasion whatsoever.

Mr. SPECTER. If the crack in the windshield had been as prominent as it was on or about November 27, 1963, would you have observed it after the shooting on November 22?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir; I don't think I would have.

Senator COOPER. Is it correct then to say that you didn't find any occasion to examine the windshield after you heard the shots?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right, I did not have the opportunity.

Mr. SPECTER. And after the President was removed from the automobile, did you ever go back and examine the car, including the windshield?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Not in Dallas; no, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. To be absolutely certain our record is straight on this point, when you observed this windshield on or about November 27, 1963, was the windshield in or out of the car?

Mr. KELLERMAN. It was in the car. This was the same day they were going to remove it.

Mr. SPECTER. Did they remove it later that day, to your knowledge?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; they did, and the mechanics were there.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you there at the time this was removed?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. But the mechanics had arrived preparatory to removing it?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman, we intended to describe the windshield in detail prior to your mentioning it, but to go back to your train of thought, you had brought up the windshield in response to my question about whether you had told us everything that you had in mind when you expressed the view that there were more than three shots. Now, remaining on the subject of the windshield, what fact about the windshield was important in your mind when you expressed the view that there must have been more than three shots?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I may be a little--I am not ahead of myself in your investigation of this case, but I think with the evidence that you all have on the numbers, on the pieces of evidence that were found in the car, plus the fact that you have a missile that was received from Dallas, from one of the stretchers, plus the fact of the missile that, to my knowledge, hasn't been removed from Governor Connally--it may have, I don't know--count up to more than three to me, gentlemen.

Mr. SPECTER. All right; fine. But focusing just a moment on the windshield in and of itself, is there any physical factor or characteristic of the windshield other than those already described for the record which has any bearing on your conclusion about the number of shots?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No; it does not.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, moving on to the other pieces of evidence which you have just described, you referred to pieces of evidence in the car. What did you mean when you made that reference, sir?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I have--I was told, although this is a hearsay thing----

Mr. SPECTER. For these purposes, please tell us whatever you are referring to, whatever its source, hearsay or not.

Mr. KELLERMAN. Okay; fine. That when they examined that vehicle that night, when it was brought back to Washington, D.C., two pieces of a bullet or bullets were found on the passenger side on the floor of the front seat.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe those?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Who told you that, or what report?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Mr. Boring--Floyd Boring.

Mr. SPECTER. Who is Mr. Boring?

Mr. KELLERMAN. He is also an assistant special agent in charge.

Mr. SPECTER. Is he currently with the Secret Service?

Mr. KELLERMAN. He is currently with the Secret Service at the White House; yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Were those two pieces of bullet described with more particularity than you have mentioned?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No; they were not.

Mr. SPECTER. Were they described as fragments of bullets as distinguished from whole bullets?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Right, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. But do you have any information as to the size of the fragments?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I do not.

Mr. SPECTER. Are there any other pieces of evidence in the car that you were referring to there?

Mr. KELLERMAN. The only other piece of evidence in the car was President Kennedy's skull.

Mr. SPECTER. All right. Do you know what was done with those fragments that Mr. Boring told you about?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I don't.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether or not those were turned over to the FBI?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I would say they were probably turned over to the FBI; yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And why would you say they probably were?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Because they were assigned to going over the car.

Mr. SPECTER. Was it their procedure to turn over whatever they found to the FBI?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Oh, yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, is there anything special in the nature of the skull which you just mentioned which would have any bearing on the number of shots fired in this assassination?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, but it would be one shell, one shot.

Mr. SPECTER. That would be your conclusion?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That would be my conclusion.

Mr. SPECTER. That it would take one shot to have separated that portion of skull?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. You mentioned a missile found on a stretcher in Dallas. Will you elaborate on what you were referring to there?

Mr. KELLERMAN. This was given, I believe, in your statements there, to a Special Agent Johnsen. I haven't seen this missile.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you referring there to the missile which was found on the stretcher and to the sequence of events from which it was traced back to one of the two victims of this shooting?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any more knowledge about that other than that which you have already mentioned?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I do not.

Mr. SPECTER. You mentioned a missile which was not removed from Governor Connally. Specifically, what did you refer to there?

Mr. KELLERMAN. There was in the early--this was on the day in Parkland Memorial Hospital, and this information comes from Dr. George Burkley, the President's physician, when, I believe, I asked him the condition of Governor Connally, and have they removed the bullet from him.

Mr. SPECTER. What did Dr. Burkley say?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Dr. Burkley said that to his knowledge he still has the bullet in him.

Mr. SPECTER. And at what time on November 22 was that?

Mr. KELLERMAN. This was after we got into the hospital after the shooting, sir, between then and 2 o'clock.

Mr. SPECTER. So that the operation on Governor Connally had not been completed at that point?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is correct, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any additional knowledge about any bullet in Governor Connally?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I do not.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you now told us about all of the facts which you took into account in your conclusion that there were more than three shots?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add, Mr. Kellerman, by way of explanation or elaboration, to tell us which might be helpful with respect to your conclusion based on all of these items which you have described to us that there were more than three shots?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Gentlemen, I think if you would view the films yourself you may come up with a little different answer.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, have you viewed the films, Mr. Kellerman?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I have; yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there something special in your viewing of the films which led you to believe that there were more than three shots?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No; it doesn't point out more than three shots, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Which films are you referring to?

Mr. KELLERMAN. These are the colored ones that were taken on the right side.

Mr. SPECTER. Taken by Mr. Abraham Zapruder?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I don't know.

Mr. SPECTER. You are not familiar with the photographer?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I am not.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, can you describe the view you say is from the right-hand side of the automobile?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right.

Mr. SPECTER. So that would be on the side of the road where the Texas School Book Depository Building was?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And approximately where did those pictures begin and end?

Mr. KELLERMAN. These pictures began as we turned off Houston Street onto Elm.

Mr. SPECTER. And where did they end?

Mr. KELLERMAN. As we are, just before we are, going into the viaduct.

Mr. SPECTER. Were those black and white or in color?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No; they were colored.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you seen any other films of the assassination?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; I saw a black-and-white, but I didn't--I saw a black-and-white film. However, I didn't get enough out of it there to----

Mr. SPECTER. Before proceeding any further, I would like to move for the introduction in evidence of Exhibit 351.

Representative FORD. It is approved.

(The windshield referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 351 for identification and was received in evidence.)

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything at all to add which you think might be helpful, Mr. Kellerman, on the question of how many shots were fired, or have you told us everything you have in mind on that question?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I believe I have, Mr. Specter.

Senator COOPER. What was the name of the special agent driving the car--the President's car?

Mr. KELLERMAN. William Greer.

Senator COOPER. He was the one to whom you spoke when you heard the report?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. Has he ever expressed any opinion to you as to the number of shots that were fired?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir. I think we are all of the opinion, Senator, that we know of three.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman, referring to Commission Exhibit No. 347, will you pinpoint as precisely as you can on that aerial shot, aerial picture, where the President's car was at the time of the first shot? And mark that, if you would, please, with an "X" in red pencil.

Mr. KELLERMAN. My guess would be right in here, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, would you mark as closely as you can where the President's car was at the time of the second shot and mark that with a "Y" in red.

(Mr. Kellerman marking the picture.)

Mr. SPECTER. Now, you have marked the cars being in approximately the middle of the road; is that accurate, as you recollect it?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is the general procedure, Mr. Specter; they were traveling in the center of the road.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, with respect to the time of the third shot, would your marking be any different from the "Y" position?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No; it would not.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, from the time of the shooting until the time the automobile arrived at Parkland Hospital, did anyone in the President's car say anything that you have not already told us about?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman, there is a report from the Federal Bureau of Investigation designated "Bureau File No. 105"--I believe there is an "S", although it is somewhat illegible on my copy--"S2555, report of Special Agent Robert P. Gemberling," dated December 10, 1963, which refers to an interview of you by Special Agent Francis X. O'Neill, Jr., and James W. Sibert, in which the following is set forth: