Part 13

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman, you said earlier that there were at least two additional shots. Is there any area in your mind or possibility, as you recollect that situation, that there could have been more than two shots, or are you able to say with any certainty?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I am going to say that I have, from the firecracker report and the two other shots that I know, those were three shots. But, Mr. Specter, if President Kennedy had from all reports four wounds, Governor Connally three, there have got to be more than three shots, gentlemen.

Senator COOPER. What is that answer? What did he say?

Mr. SPECTER. Will you repeat that, Mr. Kellerman?

Mr. KELLERMAN. President Kennedy had four wounds, two in the head and shoulder and the neck. Governor Connally, from our reports, had three. There have got to be more than three shots.

Representative FORD. Is that why you have described----

Mr. KELLERMAN. The flurry.

Representative FORD. The noise as a flurry?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Excuse me, do you have any independent recollection, Mr. Kellerman, of the number of shots, aside from the inference that you make as to how many points of wounds there were?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Could you rephrase that, please?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes. You have drawn a conclusion, in effect, by saying that there were four wounds for the President and three wounds for the Governor; and from that, you say there must have been more than three shots in your opinion or your view. But my question is: Do you have any current recollection of having heard more than three shots?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No. I don't. I will have to say "No."

Senator COOPER. Has that been your recollection from the very time of the shooting?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir; it has been my opinion.

Senator COOPER. Not your opinion, but from the time of the shooting you think then that you heard only three shots, or did you----

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes.

Senator COOPER. Or did you ever think that you heard more than three?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir; I can't say that, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, you referred to four wounds, Mr. Kellerman, realizing, of course, your characterization is only lay opinion.

Mr. KELLERMAN. Very true.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you tell us which wounds you made reference to by that statement, please?

Mr. KELLERMAN. All right. Can I keep the train going from the time we got to the hospital?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir; do it in your own way just as you please.

Mr. KELLERMAN. Fine. As we arrived at the hospital I immediately got out of the car. Our followup car is in back of us, as you will recall. I yelled to the agents, "Get in"--"Go get us two stretchers on wheels."

In the meantime in a matter of seconds--I don't know how they got out so fast--I turned right around to the back door and opened it. By this time Mrs. Connally had raised up, and the Governor is lying in her lap, face up. His eyes are open and he is looking at me, and I am fairly sure he is alive. By this time I noticed the two stretchers coming out of the emergency room, and I said to the Governor, I said, "Governor, don't worry; everything is going to be all right." And he nodded his head, which I was fairly convinced that that man was alive.

By this time the stretcher is there. I get inside on one side of him, and Special Agent Hill on the other. Somebody is holding his feet, and we remove the Governor and put him on the stretcher and they take him in.

We then get in and help Mrs. Connally out. Our next move is to get Mrs. Kennedy off from the seat, which was a little difficult, but she was removed. Then Mr. Hill removed his coat and laid it over the President's face and shoulder. He and I among two other people--I don't know--we lifted up the President and put him on a stretcher and followed him right into the emergency room.

Gentlemen, this emergency room is a, it looks like a, checkerboard; it has a walkway down the center and a crossway and there are rooms on each side. President Kennedy was put into the one on the right, Governor Connally across on the left. And as we pushed the wheelchair in--we pushed the stretcher inside, the medical people just seemed to form right in, right there, and I walked around him and I wanted to look at this man's face, they had him face up.

Senator COOPER. The President?

Mr. KELLERMAN. The President; I am sorry. I did not see any wounds in that man's face.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating with your hand at that moment the front part of his face?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Right, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. May I interrupt you just to ask whether you had any view----

Mr. KELLERMAN. Surely.

Mr. SPECTER. Of the rear part of his head?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I did not, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the rearmost or uppermost portion of President Kennedy's head which you could observe at that time?

Mr. KELLERMAN. It was the hairline to the ear, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Proceed.

Mr. KELLERMAN. Having all the medical people in there, my business is left in their hands. So I left. Mrs. Kennedy, incidentally, was still in there.

Mr. SPECTER. In where, sir?

Mr. KELLERMAN. In the emergency room with him. Which after a few minutes they convinced her to leave, and she sat outside the room while they were working over the President. I walked into this center area of this emergency room--and I am looking for a telephone--which there is a little doctor's office and I walked inside, and I am alone at that time, except one medic who was in there. There are two phones and I said, "Can I use either one of these phones to get outside?" and he said, "Yes; just pick one up."

By this time Mr. Lawson enters and also Mr. Hill. I asked Mr. Lawson for the telephone number of the Dallas White House switchboard. He immediately has it and I said to Mr. Hill, "Will you dial it, please?" By that time a medic comes into the room from President Kennedy's section and he asks if anybody knows the blood type of the President--President Kennedy. We all carry it. I produce mine, and that is what I believe they used; I am not sure. By this time the connection is made with the White House operator in Dallas, and I took the phone, identified myself, and I said, "Give me Washington. Please don't pull this line; let's leave it open."

I got the Washington operator and I said, identified myself, and I said, "Give me Mr. Behn."

Mr. Behn was in the office at the time, and I said--his name is Gerald Behn--and I said, "Gerry, we have had an incident here in Dallas. The President, the Governor have been shot. We are in the emergency room of the Parkland Memorial Hospital." I said, "Mark down the time." Of course, since that time until now we have disagreed on about 3 minutes. I said it is 12:38, which would be 1:38 Dallas time. I am sorry--Washington time.

Mr. SPECTER. Was that at the time you were talking to Mr. Behn?

Mr. KELLERMAN. To Mr. Behn; yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And your version is that it is 12:38 Dallas time?

Mr. KELLERMAN. 12:38. He said it was 12:41; he told me the next day.

Mr. SPECTER. May I interrupt you there for you to tell us how long after you arrived at the hospital did you make that telephone call to Mr. Behn, to the best of your recollection?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Three to five minutes.

Mr. SPECTER. All right. The topic we are on now, Mr. Kellerman, is your own way of relating the description of the wounds, starting with four wounds on President Kennedy.

Mr. KELLERMAN. Right; OK.

Mr. SPECTER. Proceed, then.

Mr. KELLERMAN. I can eclipse an awful lot here and get into the morgue here in Bethesda, because that is where I looked him over.

Mr. SPECTER. I will come back and pick up some of the other detail.

Mr. KELLERMAN. Fine.

Mr. SPECTER. But for the sequence at the moment, as it relates to your conclusions on the shots which you have already testified about----

Mr. KELLERMAN. OK.

Mr. SPECTER. I would like to develop your understanding and your observations of the four wounds on President Kennedy.

Mr. KELLERMAN. OK. This all transpired in the morgue of the Naval Hospital in Bethesda, sir. He had a large wound this size.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating a circle with your finger of the diameter of 5 inches; would that be approximately correct?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, circular; yes, on this part of the head.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the rear portion of the head.

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. More to the right side of the head?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Right. This was removed.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say, "This was removed," what do you mean by this?

Mr. KELLERMAN. The skull part was removed.

Mr. SPECTER. All right.

Representative FORD. Above the ear and back?

Mr. KELLERMAN. To the left of the ear, sir, and a little high; yes. About right in here.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say "removed," by that do you mean that it was absent when you saw him, or taken off by the doctor?

Mr. KELLERMAN. It was absent when I saw him.

Mr. SPECTER. Fine. Proceed.

Mr. KELLERMAN. Entry into this man's head was right below that wound, right here.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the bottom of the hairline immediately to the right of the ear about the lower third of the ear?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Right. But it was in the hairline, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. In his hairline?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Near the end of his hairline?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the size of that aperture?

Mr. KELLERMAN. The little finger.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the diameter of the little finger.

Mr. KELLERMAN. Right.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, what was the position of that opening with respect to the portion of the skull which you have described as being removed or absent?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Well, I am going to have to describe it similar to this. Let's say part of your skull is removed here; this is below.

Mr. SPECTER. You have described a distance of approximately an inch and a half, 2 inches, below.

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is correct; about that, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. All right. What other wounds, if any, did you notice on the President?

Mr. KELLERMAN. The other wound that I noticed was on his shoulder.

Mr. SPECTER. Which shoulder.

Mr. KELLERMAN. Right shoulder.

Mr. SPECTER. And was it--what was its general position with respect to the breadth of the back?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Right straight.

Mr. SPECTER. No. Upper shoulder, lower shoulder; how far below the lower neckline would you say?

Mr. KELLERMAN. The upper neckline, sir, in that large muscle between the shoulder and the neck, just below it.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the size of that opening?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Again about the size of a little finger.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, have you described three wounds which you have observed?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is three. The fourth one I will have to collaborate with--the medical people in Dallas said that he had entry in the throat or an exit.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, you are indicating a part on the throat right underneath your tie as you sit there, the knot of your tie.

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Who told you that?

Mr. KELLERMAN. This comes from a report from Dr. Kemp Clark.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you talk to Dr. Clark personally?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I did not. This is a written report.

Mr. SPECTER. This is a written report which you have read?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; that is right.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any knowledge of that wound on the front side aside from the written report of Dr. Kemp Clark?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Except that in the morgue it was very visible that they had incisioned him here to insert the tracheotomy that they performed on him.

Mr. SPECTER. So with the operative procedures to perform a tracheotomy, was there anything, in your view, left of the original entry?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Entry or exit that you have described.

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. All you could see at that point was the operative procedure, the cutting of the surgeon's blade in Dallas?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right.

Senator COOPER. You are saying this, then, that you did not see, yourself, at any time the mark of any wound in his neck front?

Mr. KELLERMAN. When we took him into the hospital in Dallas; that is right.

Senator COOPER. What?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right; when we took him in the hospital in Dallas, I did not.

Senator COOPER. Did you ever see it?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Only after he was opened up in the morgue; yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. You saw some indication or some mark of a wound in the front of his neck?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Senator, from the report of the doctor who worked on him in Dallas, that he enlarged the incision here in his throat to perform that tracheotomy, and I believe in his own statement that that wound was there prior to this incision.

Senator COOPER. I know, but I am asking----

Mr. KELLERMAN. I didn't see it, sir.

Senator COOPER. What you saw yourself?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I didn't.

Representative FORD. Was that because Hill had thrown his coat over the President, or just didn't see the skin or the body at the time?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir. When I--that coat was thrown over, sir, to eliminate any gruesome pictures.

Representative FORD. How far over that body? Did it go over the head only or down the chest?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No; the whole coat went all the way down to the waistline, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. You saw the President's face, though, at a later time as you have described?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, thank you. This I had lost track of, to help you out, Mr. Congressman. While he lay on the stretcher in that emergency room his collar and everything is up and I saw nothing in his face to indicate an injury, whether the shot had come through or not. He was clear.

Representative FORD. But while he was on the stretcher in the emergency room you saw his face?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right.

Representative FORD. But he had his tie and his collar still----

Mr. KELLERMAN. Still on.

Representative FORD. Still on?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. You never saw his neck?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.

Representative FORD. At that time?

Mr. KELLERMAN. At that time, I did not observe him.

Representative FORD. The only time you saw him was later at the morgue?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Very much, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any blood on the portion of his body in the neck area or anyplace in the front of his body?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I don't recall any.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any hole in the clothing of the President on the front part, in the shirt or tie area?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. From your observation of the wound which you observed in the morgue which you have described as a tracheotomy, would that have been above or below the shirtline when the President was clothed?

Mr. KELLERMAN. It would have been below the shirtline, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, have you described all of the wounds of the President to which you have referred?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe the three wounds which I believe you said Governor Connally sustained?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I am going to refer to the medical report on Governor Connally, wherein they said one wound was in his right back----

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the upper shoulder area?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. One went through his wrist.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the right wrist.

Mr. KELLERMAN. I am using the numbers, and he was--a missile went into his thigh somewhere.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know anything about Governor Connally's wounds aside from what you read in the medical report?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No; not personally.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any independent knowledge of which wrist and which thigh, aside from what you read in the medical reports themselves?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; I do, I talked to the Governor several times later, and it is the right wrist, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. It is the right wrist?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And which thigh?

Mr. KELLERMAN. It would be the left one.

Representative FORD. Is this a good point for a recess?

Mr. SPECTER. This is fine.

Representative FORD. We will take a 5-minute break.

(Short recess.)

Representative FORD. The Commission will resume, and will you proceed, Mr. Specter, please?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes sir. One of your last answers was that the position of the wounds on Governor Connally was ascertained from a conversation between you and Governor Connally, as well as from the medical reports themselves. Is that correct?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No; it is really not.

Mr. SPECTER. Then tell us what your basis is for your testimony on Governor Connally's wounds.

Mr. KELLERMAN. I have never conversed with the Governor as to his other wounds outside of his wrist. Your medical report on Governor Connally which indicate the shoulder wound, wrist, and in the thigh.

Mr. SPECTER. When did you have occasion to talk to him about his wrist wound?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Over the holidays in Texas, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. The Christmas holidays?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you now told us everything you know, either from conversations or reports, about the wounds of Governor Connally?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right; yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. All right. Were you able to observe at the time of the shooting and immediately thereafter, as Governor Connally went into the hospital, any of his specific wounds?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Only of the--I am presuming now of the hand because, when he was lying, he had it across his stomach here, and it was rather bloody.

Mr. SPECTER. And was it the hand that was bloody, the stomach, or both?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I would say so right now; yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Which?

Mr. KELLERMAN. The hand.

Mr. SPECTER. Was the stomach bloody at all?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Not that I remember.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add, Mr. Kellerman, on the total number of wounds in relationship to your view that there were more than three shots?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Well, let's consider the vehicle.

Mr. SPECTER. Fine. What about the vehicle would you consider relevant in this regard?

Mr. KELLERMAN. The windshield itself, which I observed a day or two after the funeral here, had been hit by a piece of this missile or missiles, whatever it is, shell.

Mr. SPECTER. While you are referring to the windshield, permit me to hand you a photograph marked Commission Exhibit 349 and ask if you can tell us what that photograph depicts?

Mr. KELLERMAN. This photograph is the windshield of the Presidential special automobile that we used in Dallas on November 22. And it depicts a hit by some instrument on the metal railing that covers the windshield.

Mr. SPECTER. In what position is the hit on that metal railing?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Directly to the right of the mirror.

Mr. SPECTER. Is that on the top of the windshield?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is on the top of the windshield. I am sorry; this is not the windshield itself; this is the top of the vehicle. This is the framework.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you draw a red arrow with the pen that you have to the mark which you have just described?

(Mr. Kellerman marked the photograph.)

Mr. SPECTER. Now, when did you first observe that indentation?

Mr. KELLERMAN. This was observed a day or two after the funeral, which funeral was the 25th of November; this would be upward of the 27th.

Mr. SPECTER. Where was the automobile at the time you observed that indentation?

Mr. KELLERMAN. At the White House garage, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Was the windshield in the automobile at that time?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; it was in the automobile.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe or notice that indentation in the windshield when you were in Dallas after the shooting occurred?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe or notice that indentation before the shooting occurred?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to state positively whether or not that indentation was present before the shooting?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. So that you observed it on the first occasion when you saw the car in the White House garage on or about November 27; is that correct?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is correct, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. The indentation could conceivably have been present before the shooting?

Mr. KELLERMAN. It could have; yes.

Mr. SPECTER. But you didn't observe it before the shooting?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I did not.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you not observe it in Dallas after the shooting?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right; I did not.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any occasion to examine closely the windshield area after the assassination in Dallas?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any occasion to examine closely the windshield at any time after the assassination until you saw the car in the garage on or about November 27?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir; I have not.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe for the record where that indentation occurs or is placed?

Mr. KELLERMAN. This indentation is placed on the metal-bar framework which is across the top of the windshield. The indentation is directly to the right of the mirror holder.

Mr. SPECTER. Is that on the inside or the outside of the car?

Mr. KELLERMAN. This is on the inside of the car.

Representative FORD. What prompted you to make that investigation on or about November 27?

Mr. KELLERMAN. First, Mr. Congressman, I wanted to look this car over for--let me go back a little bit. When this car was checked over that night for its return to Washington, I was informed the following day of the pieces of these missiles that were found in the front seat, and I believe aside from the skull, that was in the rear seat, I couldn't conceive even from elevation how this shot hit President Kennedy like it did. I wanted to view this vehicle, whether this was a slant blow off the car, whether it hit the car first and then hit him, or what other marks are on this vehicle, and that is what prompted me to go around and check it over myself.

Representative FORD. Had anybody told you of this indentation prior to your own personal investigation?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Not of the windshield; no, sir.

Representative FORD. You were the first one to find this indentation?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I believe I am the first one who noticed this thing up on the bar.

Representative FORD. That is what I meant.

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. You are the first one to notice this particular indentation?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; I believe I am, sir.

Representative FORD. All right.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to examine the windshield or the framework closely before the assassination, either in Dallas or in Washington?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I honestly didn't.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chairman, I move for the admission to evidence of Exhibit No. 349.

Representative FORD. It will be so admitted.

(The document referred to, heretofore marked Commission Exhibit No. 349 for identification, was received in evidence.)

Mr. SPECTER. Now I hand to Mr. Kellerman, through the Chairman, Commission Exhibit No. 350, and ask you to describe what this picture represents?

Mr. KELLERMAN. This picture represents the windshield of the President's special automobile as we are looking into it. This is an outside photo. My reason for this is that on inspection there is a--the windshield has been struck by an instrument and it has been cracked. This crack is opposite the mirror facing the driver would be toward the driver, to the right of the mirror, and----

Mr. SPECTER. The photograph, Exhibit 350, is from the outside of the car front looking toward the car; correct?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What mark, if any, appears in the photograph on the windshield itself?

Mr. KELLERMAN. There is the cracked windshield located to the right of the mirror as you look into the automobile.

Mr. SPECTER. That would be on the driver's side, as you previously stated?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; on the driver's side of the vehicle.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, is this picture an accurate representation of the appearance of the windshield at some time when you observed the windshield?

Mr. KELLERMAN. This windshield I observed on this same day.