Part 12

Mr. KELLERMAN. I am sure it wasn't more than 200 feet at the most. It was a real short block.

Mr. SPECTER. What street then did you turn onto as you turned off of Houston Street?

Mr. KELLERMAN. From Houston we turned onto Elm, which was a rather sharp turn with a downgrade, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Was that a turn on the left or the right?

Mr. KELLERMAN. To the left, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. I ask that Exhibit 347 be admitted in evidence, may it please the Commission.

Representative FORD. It will be admitted.

Mr. SPECTER. I now show you a photograph marked Commission Exhibit No. 348, Mr. Kellerman, and I ask you if you are able at this time to identify what building is in that picture?

Mr. KELLERMAN. This building right straight ahead in the photo--I couldn't have told you on the day of the 22nd of November what it was, but as of now this is the Texas Depository Building.

Mr. SPECTER. Is that the building known as the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right, sir.

(The photograph marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 347 and 348 for identification and received in evidence.)

Mr. SPECTER. Will you mark on Exhibit 347--we have 348, we will get 348 back in a moment. I would like to have you mark in the aerial shot the precise location of that building with the initials "TS."

(Witness marks.)

Mr. SPECTER. For the written part of our record will you describe how many stories high the Texas School Book Depository building is?

Mr. KELLERMAN. This is a seven-story building. From here it appears to be a rather square-type constructed.

Mr. SPECTER. All right. As you were proceeding in a generally northerly direction on Houston Street, can you describe the layout of the street, indicating first the approximate width of that street?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Houston Street is a rather wide city street similar to anything we have here in Washington, really, and being in the heart of the business section, I would say that it was a six-lane street at the time.

Mr. SPECTER. What was on your right as you proceeded down Houston Street?

Mr. KELLERMAN. The buildings.

Mr. SPECTER. And how about on your left?

Mr. KELLERMAN. On my left it was open.

Mr. SPECTER. As you turned left onto Elm Street, will you describe what was on your right?

Mr. KELLERMAN. As we turned left onto Elm Street and left this building that we are speaking of here----

Mr. SPECTER. Is that the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; then your area became clear.

Mr. SPECTER. On the right?

Mr. KELLERMAN. On the right, sir. This was an open field area with a hill. Now, there were, if I recall correctly, just at the brink of the hill, right beyond this building in question, there was a small white--how can I describe it?

Mr. SPECTER. A little park area?

Mr. KELLERMAN. A little park area; that is right. And beyond it it was all open.

Mr. SPECTER. What was on your left at about that time as you proceeded down Elm Street?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Right. As we turned left on Elm Street off Houston, this, too, was a little plaza area, and kind of a triangular thing where the street was on the opposite side; this is an apparently one-way street, and directly to our left as we turned you had to view, this looked like a little one-story plaza building or structure.

Mr. SPECTER. To complete the scene, as you looked ahead of you down Elm Street what, if anything, did you see immediately in front of you?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes. First thing that I saw was that the road was going to turn, and then a little further ahead we had a viaduct which we were going under.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what name the Dallas Texans give to that viaduct?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I really don't.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you heard it described since as the triple overpass?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I haven't.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the approximate width of Elm Street in lanes of travel, if you recall?

Mr. KELLERMAN. It is at least three lanes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And describe the terrain, whether it was smooth, level or in what way you went as you went down Elm Street.

Mr. KELLERMAN. As we went down Elm Street, there was a smooth road and the terrain on each side was a grassy plotted area, a very cleared-off area, visibility tremendous.

Mr. SPECTER. And describe the composure of the crowds at that time.

Mr. KELLERMAN. As we turned north on to Houston Street, this was primarily the end of the crowd in Dallas, Tex.; in the downtown section, there were still a few on the sidewalk until we got to Elm Street. As we turned in a northerly direction to Elm Street, which would be on our left, then the crowds just diminished. They were spotty, standing on the grassy plot. They were not on the side of the street. In fact, there were just a matter of a handful, that was all, and we were through it.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what time it was when you got to the intersection of Houston and Elm on November 22?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Not at Houston and Elm; no. No; I don't.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the speed of the motorcade, Mr. Kellerman, as you were proceeding down Main Street at about the time you turned right onto Houston?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Ten, fifteen, no more; real parade speed.

Mr. SPECTER. How far ahead of you was the lead car at that time?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Again, it was four or five car lengths in front.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know how far behind you the President's followup car was as you turned right onto Houston from Main Street?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I don't, but I am positive it was right on our rear wheels.

Mr. SPECTER. All right.

Now, as you turned left off Houston onto Elm, what is your best estimate of the speed of the President's automobile at that time?

Mr. KELLERMAN. As we turned onto Elm Street and the crowd, we were through the section of Dallas; we might have had--the driver picked it up because we were all through. Purely a guess, we could have been going at the most 25.

Mr. SPECTER. What would your estimate, your minimum estimate, of the speed be?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Fifteen.

Mr. SPECTER. As you turned left onto Elm Street, how far were you behind the lead car at that point?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I am going to say the same; three to five car lengths, but I can, to go a little further, I can see this car ahead of me. He is not running away from us.

Mr. SPECTER. How about the pilot car; was that car in sight?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No; that I didn't see; I didn't see it.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know from your personal observation at the time you turned left onto Elm Street how far the President's followup car was behind you at that point?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Not from personal observation.

Mr. SPECTER. All right. Now, describe what occurred as you proceeded down Elm Street after turning off of Houston.

Mr. KELLERMAN. As we turned off Houston onto Elm and made the short little dip to the left going down grade, as I said, we were away from buildings, and were--there was a sign on the side of the road which I don't recall what it was or what it said, but we no more than passed that and you are out in the open, and there is a report like a firecracker, pop. And I turned my head to the right because whatever this noise was I was sure that it came from the right and perhaps into the rear, and as I turned my head to the right to view whatever it was or see whatever it was, I heard a voice from the back seat and I firmly believe it was the President's, "My God, I am hit," and I turned around and he has got his hands up here like this.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating right hand up toward his neck?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right, sir. In fact, both hands were up in that direction.

Senator COOPER. Which side of his neck?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Beg pardon?

Senator COOPER. Which side of his neck?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Both hands were up, sir; this one is like this here and here we are with the hands----

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the left hand is up above the head.

Mr. KELLERMAN. In the collar section.

Mr. SPECTER. As you are positioning yourself in the witness chair, your right hand is up with the finger at the ear level as if clutching from the right of the head; would that be an accurate description of the position you pictured there?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes. Good. There was enough for me to verify that the man was hit. So, in the same motion I come right back and grabbed the speaker and said to the driver, "Let's get out of here; we are hit," and grabbed the mike and I said, "Lawson, this is Kellerman,"--this is Lawson, who is in the front car. "We are hit; get us to the hospital immediately." Now, in the seconds that I talked just now, a flurry of shells come into the car. I then looked back and this time Mr. Hill, who was riding on the left front bumper of our followup car, was on the back trunk of that car; the President was sideways down into the back seat.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating on his left side.

Mr. KELLERMAN. Right; just like I am here.

Mr. SPECTER. You mean, correct, left side?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Correct; yes, sir. Governor Connally by that time is lying flat backwards into her lap--Mrs. Connally--and she was lying flat over him.

Mr. SPECTER. Who was lying flat over him?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Mrs. Connally was lying flat over the Governor.

Mr. SPECTER. You say that you turned to your right immediately after you heard a shot?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the reason for your reacting to your right?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That was the direction that I heard this noise, pop.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have a reaction as to the height from which the noise came?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No; honestly, I do not.

Representative FORD. Was there any reaction that you noticed on the part of Greer when the noise was noticed by you?

Mr. KELLERMAN. You are referring, Mr. Congressman, to the reaction to get this car out of there?

Representative FORD. Yes.

Mr. KELLERMAN. Mr. Congressman, I have driven that car many times, and I never cease to be amazed even to this day with the weight of the automobile plus the power that is under the hood; we just literally jumped out of the God-damn road.

Representative FORD. As soon as this noise was heard, or as soon as you transmitted this message to Lawson?

Mr. KELLERMAN. As soon as I transmitted to the driver first as I went to Lawson. I just leaned sideways to him and said, "Let's get out of here. We are hit."

Representative FORD. That comment was made to Greer; not to Lawson?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; that is right.

Representative FORD. And the subsequent message was to Lawson?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Correct. That is right.

Mr. SPECTER. With relationship to that first noise that you have described, when did you hear the voice?

Mr. KELLERMAN. His voice?

Mr. SPECTER. We will start with his voice.

Mr. KELLERMAN. OK. From the noise of which I was in the process of turning to determine where it was or what it was, it carried on right then. Why I am so positive, gentlemen, that it was his voice--there is only one man in that back seat that was from Boston, and the accents carried very clearly.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, had you become familiar with the President's voice prior to that day?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; very much so.

Mr. SPECTER. And what was the basis for your becoming familiar with his voice prior to that day?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I had been with him for 3 years.

Mr. SPECTER. And had you talked with him on a very frequent basis during the course of that association?

Mr. KELLERMAN. He was a very free man to talk to; yes. He knew most all the men, most everybody who worked in the White House as well as everywhere, and he would call you.

Mr. SPECTER. And from your experience would you say that you could recognize the voice?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Very much, sir; I would.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, I think you may have answered this, but I want to pinpoint just when you heard that statement which you have attributed to President Kennedy in relationship to the sound which you described as a firecracker.

Mr. KELLERMAN. This noise which I attribute as a firecracker, when this occurred and I am in the process of determining where it comes because I am sure it came off my right rear somewhere; the voice broke in right then.

Mr. SPECTER. At about the same time?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is correct, sir. That is right.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, did President Kennedy say anything beside, "My God, I am hit."

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is the last words he said, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did Mrs. Kennedy say anything at that specific time?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Mr. Specter, there was an awful lot of confusion in that back seat. She did a lot of talking which I can't recall all the phrases.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, pinpoint----

Mr. KELLERMAN. But after the flurry of shots, I recall her saying, "What are they doing to you?" Now again, of course, my comparison of the voice of her speech--certainly, I have heard it many times, and in the car there was conversation she was carrying on through shock, I am sure.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, going back to the precise time that you heard the President say, "My God, I am hit," do you recollect whether she said anything at that time?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Whether or not you can re-create what she said?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Not that I can recall right then, sir. This statement, or whatever she said, happened after all the shooting was over.

Mr. SPECTER. All right. Now, you have described hearing a noise which sounded like a firecracker and you have described turning to your right and described hearing the President's voice and, again, what was your next motion, if any, or movement, if any?

Mr. KELLERMAN. After I was sure that his statement was right that he was hit, turned from the back I come right down----

Mr. SPECTER. You just indicated that you had turned to the left. Had you turned to the left after hearing his voice?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; certainly.

Mr. SPECTER. And what did you see? You have described what you saw in terms of position of his hands.

Mr. KELLERMAN. That was it.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you do next?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is when I completely turned to my right and grabbed for the mike in the same motion, sideways telling the driver, "Let's get out of here; we are hit."

Mr. SPECTER. Will you give us the best estimate of the lapse of time from the instant you heard the sound which appeared to you to be a firecracker until you instructed Mr. Greer in the way you have described?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Seconds.

Mr. SPECTER. How many seconds?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Three or four.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, how long did it take you to relay the instructions which you have told us about to Special Agent Lawson; what your best estimate would be?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Instant, in seconds again. Again it is three to five.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, in your prior testimony you described a flurry of shells into the car. How many shots did you hear after the first noise which you described as sounding like a firecracker?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Mr. Specter, these shells came in all together.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to say how many you heard?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I am going to say two, and it was like a double bang--bang, bang.

Mr. SPECTER. You mean now two shots in addition to the first noise?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; yes, sir; at least.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of the time, in seconds, from the first noise sounding like a firecracker until the second noise which you heard?

Mr. KELLERMAN. This was instantaneous.

Mr. SPECTER. No; let me repeat the question so I am sure you understand it. From the time you first heard the noise coming to your right rear, which you described as sounding like a firecracker, until you heard the flurry of shots?

Mr. KELLERMAN. This is about how long it took, sir. As I am viewing, trying to determine this noise, I turned to my right and I heard the voice and I came back and I verify it and speak to the driver, grab the mike, these shots come in.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, you have described it as 3 to 4 seconds from the time----

Mr. KELLERMAN. No more.

Mr. SPECTER. From the time of the first noise--wait a minute--until you gave the instruction to Mr. Greer and then as you made the statement to Special Agent Lawson over the microphone that was an instantaneous timespan as you have described it.

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. How soon thereafter did the flurry of shots come?

Mr. KELLERMAN. They came in, Mr. Specter, while I am delivering that radio message.

Mr. SPECTER. To Mr. Lawson. All right. Was there any timespan which you could discern between the first and second shots and what you have described as the flurry?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I will estimate 5 seconds, if that.

Representative FORD. But this flurry took place while you were occupied with these other activities; is that correct?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right, sir.

Representative FORD. You don't recall precisely a second shot and a third shot such as you did in the case of the first?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Let me give you an illustration, sir, before I can give you an answer. You have heard the sound barrier, of a plane breaking the sound barrier, bang, bang? That is it.

Representative FORD. This is for the second and the third, or the flurry as you described it?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right; that is right, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. On your 5-second estimate, was that in reference, Mr. Kellerman, to the total timespan from the first noise until the flurry ended?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right; that is right.

Mr. SPECTER. All right. Now, when the flurry occurred then, were you still facing forward talking into the microphone to Lawson?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right.

Mr. SPECTER. All right. Then precisely what was your next movement after completing the delivery of that message to Lawson?

Mr. KELLERMAN. When I completed the delivery of those instructions to Lawson, I just hung up the receiver and looked back.

Mr. SPECTER. To your right this time--to your left; pardon me.

Mr. KELLERMAN. To my left; that is right. This is when I first viewed Mr. Hill, who was on the back of the----

Mr. SPECTER. Precisely where was he in that instant?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Lying right across the trunk of the car with Mrs. Kennedy on the left rear. Mr. Hill's head was right up in back of her.

Mr. SPECTER. When you describe the left rear you mean as the car was facing?

Mr. KELLERMAN. As the car is traveling, sir; yes, sir. He was lying across the trunk of this car, feet on this side.

Mr. SPECTER. Was he flat across the trunk of the car?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Flat; that is right.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the position of Mrs. Kennedy's body at that time?

Mr. KELLERMAN. She was sitting up in the corner of this back seat, like this.

Mr. SPECTER. So that she was on the buttocks area of her body at that time?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And what movement, if any, did you observe Mrs. Kennedy make at that time?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I never did see Mrs. Kennedy leave that back seat, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say the back seat, are you referring----

Mr. KELLERMAN. The seat she was sitting on.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you referring to the seat itself of the automobile?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Right.

Mr. SPECTER. Where did you look next; what did you observe following that?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Then I observed how the President was lying, which was--he was--flat in the seat in this direction.

Mr. SPECTER. On his left-hand side?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. Governor Connally was lying straight on his back with Mrs. Connally over him about halfway.

Mr. SPECTER. Did Governor Connally say anything up to this point?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Did Mrs. Connally say anything up to that point?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No.

Mr. SPECTER. When was it that Mrs. Kennedy made the statement which you have described, "My God, what are they doing?"

Mr. KELLERMAN. This occurred after the flurry of shots.

Mr. SPECTER. At that time you looked back and saw Special Agent Hill across the trunk of the car, had your automobile accelerated by that time?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Tremendously so; yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, to the best of your ability to recollect, exactly when did your automobile first accelerate?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Our car accelerated immediately on the time--at the time--this flurry of shots came into it.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you say the acceleration----

Mr. KELLERMAN. Between the second and third shot.

Senator COOPER. Might I ask a question there?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes.

Senator COOPER. A few minutes ago you said in response to a question that when you spoke to the driver the car leaped forward from an acceleration immediately. Did that acceleration occur before the second shot was fired?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. Just about the time that it came in.

Senator COOPER. About the time it came in?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. Not before?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No.

Senator COOPER. One other question: You said the flurry of shots came in the car. You were leaning forward talking to the driver after the first shot. What made you aware of a flurry of shots?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Senator, between all the matter that was--between all the matter that was blown off from an injured person, this stuff all came over.

Senator COOPER. What was that?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Body matter; flesh.

Senator COOPER. When you were speaking of a flurry of shots, was there a longer interval between the first shot and the second shot as compared to the interval between the second shot and the third shot?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. When did you first notice the substance which you have described as body matter?

Mr. KELLERMAN. When I got to the hospital, sir, it was all over my coat.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you notice it flying past you at any time prior to your arrival at the hospital?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; I know there was something in the air.

Mr. SPECTER. When, in relation to the shots, Mr. Kellerman, did you notice the substance in the air?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Fine. When I have given the orders to Mr. Lawson, this is when it all came between the driver and myself.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you describe what it was in a little more detail as it appeared to you at that time?

Mr. KELLERMAN. This is a rather poor comparison, but let's say you take a little handful of matter--I am going to use sawdust for want of a better item--and just throw it.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you describe the sound of the flurry of shots by way of distinction with the way you have described the sound of the first shot?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Well, having heard all types of guns fired, most of them, rather, if I recall correctly these were two sharp reports, sir. Again, I am going to refer to it as like a plane going through a sound barrier; bang, bang.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, you are referring to the flurry?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right.

Mr. SPECTER. Did it sound differently from the first noise you have described as being a firecracker?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; definitely; very much so.

Representative FORD. Was there any other noise going on at the time of the second and third shots different from the noise of the crowd or otherwise at the time of the first shot?

Mr. KELLERMAN. We had no crowd, sir. There was nothing there.

Representative FORD. So the external noise was identical as far as the----

Mr. KELLERMAN. Very much.

Representative FORD. First or second or the third shot?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. We are in an open-field area, so to speak, and everything was just clear.

Representative FORD. So there was no other sound that would have disturbed your hearing capability from the first through the third shot?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right; no other shot.

Representative FORD. Your only problem would be your personal activity after the first shot.

Mr. KELLERMAN. Correct.

Representative FORD. Your activity of speaking to Greer and talking to Lawson?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is correct, sir; yes, sir.

Representative FORD. Was there any crowd reaction?

Mr. KELLERMAN. There was no crowd.

Representative FORD. There were a few stragglers?

Mr. KELLERMAN. A handful, and I didn't view any reaction, sir.

Representative FORD. All right.