Part 11

Mr. KELLERMAN. It is positioned over the front seat; the top of this bar would be 4 or 5 inches over my head.

Mr. SPECTER. Is it directly over the back portion of the front seat?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. Directly over the front seat.

Mr. SPECTER. And you describe it as 4 or 5 inches over your head. Can you give us an estimate of the distance above the top of the front seat?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Oh, I am guessing in the neighborhood of 15, 18 inches.

Mr. SPECTER. What is the width of that metal bar?

Mr. KELLERMAN. The bar, 4 to 6 inches, I would say.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you tell us approximately how wide the automobile itself is?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I can't.

Mr. SPECTER. With respect to the automobile, are there any running boards?

Mr. KELLERMAN. There are no running boards.

Mr. SPECTER. Is there any place on the car where someone can stand up and ride as it proceeds in motion?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; on the rear of the vehicle, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. How many such positions are there?

Mr. KELLERMAN. There is a step on each side of the spare tire, one man on each one.

Mr. SPECTER. And is there any facility for holding on with a man riding in those positions?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; there is a metal arm erected on the trunk where a man can hold on while standing on the rear of the car.

Mr. SPECTER. All right.

May it please the Commission, I move that Exhibit 346 be introduced in evidence.

Representative FORD. It will be so admitted.

(The photograph referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 346 for identification and received in evidence.)

Mr. SPECTER. With reference to the bubble top which you have heretofore described, of what is that composed?

Mr. KELLERMAN. It is composed of plastic, clear plastic substance. Its use would be for a weather matter whereby the President or his occupants can see out. It is not an enclosed car.

Mr. SPECTER. Is it bulletproof?

Mr. KELLERMAN. It is not bulletproof.

Mr. SPECTER. Is it bullet resistant in any way?

Mr. KELLERMAN. It's not bullet resistant.

Mr. SPECTER. Could you describe in a general way at this point what efforts, if any, have been made to obtain a bulletproof clear top for the President's automobile?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Presently?

Mr. SPECTER. Presently or heretofore.

Mr. KELLERMAN. I am going to have to go in the present day.

Mr. SPECTER. Fine.

Mr. KELLERMAN. This same vehicle, I understand, is being completed with a bullet-resistant top and sides.

Representative FORD. Can you explain the difference between bullet resistant and the existing kind of the top?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I can't; I really can't. I have been behind on this thing and I am at a loss for a better answer.

Representative FORD. Could the present top deflect in any way, destroy the accuracy of a shot?

Mr. KELLERMAN. This would be a guess, Mr. Congressman. I would think that it would be deterred for, let's say, the velocity of a missile coming in at great speed, I think it would deter it; I don't think it would eliminate--it still would enter the top.

Representative FORD. The vehicle.

Mr. KELLERMAN. I am sure; yes, sir.

Representative FORD. But as far as you know the top that was available would not impede the projectile? Do you know whether or not it would deflect its accuracy?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Well, I have tried to study that, sir. The angle of the back as an example which is, what degree I don't recall, hoping that--of course, it was now known to be an upshot into the vehicle hoping that it would deter its force and so forth, but I really don't know. I kind of doubt it.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman, in describing the top as being not bulletproof and not bullet resistant, state whether you are describing the top which they are currently working on or the top which was present at the time of November 22, 1963?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is the top that they are currently working on.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, as to the bubble top which accompanied this car on November 22, 1963, was that bulletproof or bullet resistant?

Mr. KELLERMAN. It was not; neither.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether or not an effort is being made at the present time to develop a bullet-resistant or bulletproof top.

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes sir; it is.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you personally familiar with the progress of that effort?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I am not, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know how the President's automobile was transported from Washington, D.C., to Texas?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. The President's vehicle was transported to San Antonio by cargo aircraft. It was flown to San Antonio a day before the President arrived. It was then flown from San Antonio to Dallas, where it was used on November 22. This vehicle was not used in the other two stops at Houston and Fort Worth.

Representative FORD. When you say cargo aircraft----

Mr. KELLERMAN. Like a C-130, sir.

Representative FORD. A Government?

Mr. KELLERMAN. You are right, sir; that is right.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman, what were the President's activities, if you know immediately prior to the time he departed from Fort Worth?

Senator COOPER. Might I ask just one question?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. Do you know whether or not prior to November 22 the President's car had ever been equipped with a top which had the capacity to stop or deflect a bullet?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Never had been, Senator.

Senator COOPER. There was none in existence?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman, what were the President's activities immediately before departing from Fort Worth on the morning of November 22?

Mr. KELLERMAN. First he walked from the hotel across the street, spoke to a group that were in a parking lot, with other congressional people there in Texas. From there he walked right into the hotel and entered the ballroom where a breakfast was held, given to him by the chamber of commerce and, I believe, the citizens group in Fort Worth.

From there he returned to his suite because there was time left before his departure for Dallas. It was up there in the neighborhood of 10 o'clock in the morning that Special Agent Lawson called me from Dallas asking me to verify whether the top should be put on--should remain on the President's car or should be taken off due to the change of weather. It had been raining slightly in Dallas at that time. I said, "One moment and I will check with you one way or the other."

As I said earlier, the weather was clearing in Fort Worth; it was going to be a nice day. I asked Mr. Kenneth O'Donnell, who is President Kennedy's appointment secretary: "Mr. O'Donnell," I said, "the weather; it is slightly raining in Dallas, predictions of clearing up. Do you desire to have the bubbletop on the President's car or do you, or would you desire to have it removed for this parade over to the Trade Mart?"

His instructions to me were, "If the weather is clear and it is not raining, have that bubbletop off," and that is exactly what I relayed to Mr. Lawson.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, at about what time did President Kennedy depart from Fort Worth?

Mr. KELLERMAN. We were airborne from Fort Worth at 11:20 in the morning.

Mr. SPECTER. In what plane were you airborne?

Mr. KELLERMAN. In the President's special plane, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What time did you arrive in that plane in Dallas?

Mr. KELLERMAN. We arrived in Dallas, Love Field, at 11:40 a.m.

Mr. SPECTER. Describe in a general way what President Kennedy's activities were at Love Field, please.

Mr. KELLERMAN. Very well. May I add this: Again I said there were two planes in this program. The then Vice President Johnson would be in a separate plane. He would land ahead of us by a minute or two, all right. He is in Dallas by the time we arrive at 11:40 a.m. As we are spotted on the apron at Love Field and when the ramp is pulled forward, the Vice President, then Vice President Johnson and Mrs. Johnson, together with a selected group of people would form a reception committee from the end of the ramp straight out to where the motorcade was in place.

At 11:40, as I said, the President and Mrs. Kennedy left that plane, met these people. As we finished greeting these folks here, there was an elderly lady wheeled up in a wheelchair; her name I do not know; the both of them met her. By this time the people are starting to get in their automobiles for this trip into town. The President then noticed that there was quite a gathering of people at this airport in back of a fenced area, and, with her, they both walked over to this crowded area and started shaking hands and greeting these people who had been there perhaps some time before we got in.

Mr. SPECTER. By "her", who do you mean, sir?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Mrs. Kennedy; I am sorry.

Mr. SPECTER. What would you estimate the crowd to be?

Mr. KELLERMAN. In the thousands; I would say there were two, three, four thousand people there.

Mr. SPECTER. Approximately how long did the greeting of the crowd at Love Field last, Mr. Kellerman?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Fifteen minutes. The motorcade left Love Field at 11:55.

Mr. SPECTER. Approximately how many cars were there in that motorcade?

Mr. KELLERMAN. At least 15.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the first car in line?

Mr. KELLERMAN. The first car in line, sir, was what we call the police pilot car. The duties of these police officers in that car--they would drive ahead.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you personally know who was in that car?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. How far ahead of the regular motorcade were they to be?

Mr. KELLERMAN. They could be several blocks ahead of us.

Mr. SPECTER. What is the general purpose of that pilot car?

Mr. KELLERMAN. The purpose of that pilot car is to clear the roadway and instruct the officers along the route that the President is in motion and coming in back of them. Next you will find a small group of motorcycles.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know how many motorcycles there were in Dallas on that day?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I don't.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you tell us what the custom is with respect to motorcycles?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; those motorcycles that would be in back of that police car were to assist any officers along the way in any disturbance that they would run into before we got to that point, or secondly, in the event that we needed them back on our car they could be called, utilized.

Mr. SPECTER. What is the next car in line?

Mr. KELLERMAN. The next car is the lead car. That car on that day was driven by Chief Curry of the Dallas Police Department.

His occupants in that car was Special Agent Winston Lawson, who was carrying a portable radio with him. Also in this car was Special Agent in Charge Verne Sorrels, in charge of our Dallas office. The other occupant, I believe, was a deputy sheriff.

Mr. SPECTER. Was it Sheriff Decker, perhaps, of Dallas County?

Mr. KELLERMAN. The name doesn't reach me, sir; I am sorry.

Mr. SPECTER. You described a radio. Will you tell us a little more fully what radio transmission there was in the motorcade, please?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. This lead car which Mr. Lawson was in has a portable radio. The President's car is next. This is equipped with a permanent set radio on the same frequency as that gentleman up front. The next car is our Secret Service followup car which has a permanent installation. The Secret Service car, as I say, is equipped with a permanent installation which connects the President's car and the lead car. The next car in back of our Secret Service car was the then Vice President Johnson. The Secret Service agent in that car had a portable radio that he could read all three of us ahead. His car following was a small Secret Service followup car, and they, too, had a portable set, which could read all four.

So we had a net of five on our own frequency. In the police cars they had their own city police frequency radios.

Mr. SPECTER. How many frequencies were used by your own network?

Mr. KELLERMAN. One.

Representative FORD. Do you have an alternative frequency, emergency frequency?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; we do. We have two of them.

Mr. SPECTER. What automobile came behind the lead automobile?

Mr. KELLERMAN. The President's car.

Mr. SPECTER. Describe the occupants of that car, indicating their positions, if you can, please.

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes. The President--President Kennedy sat on the right rear seat. Next to him on the left seat was Mrs. Kennedy. On the right jump seat in front of President Kennedy was Governor Connally. On the left jump seat in front of Mrs. Kennedy was Mrs. Connally. I sat on the right passenger seat of the driver's seat, and Special Agent William Greer drove the vehicle.

Mr. SPECTER. How far were you behind the lead car?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No more than two or three car lengths.

Senator COOPER. What is that? I didn't hear it.

Mr. KELLERMAN. No more than two or three car lengths, Senator Cooper.

Mr. SPECTER. What car immediately followed the President's car?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Our own Secret Service followup car.

Mr. SPECTER. What kind of a car was that?

Mr. KELLERMAN. This is a 1956 Cadillac, four-door touring car with the top down.

Mr. SPECTER. Was that also a special automobile flown in?

Mr. KELLERMAN. This is a special automobile, flown in with the President's car; yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. SPECTER. And who were the occupants of that car, indicating their positions in the car?

Mr. KELLERMAN. All during this ride in from Love Field Special Agent Sam Kinney was the driver of this automobile. The assistant to the Special Agent in Charge Emory Roberts was sitting in the front seat, the passenger side. This car has running boards. Standing on the front of the left running board was Special Agent Clinton Hill. In back of him on the rear of that same running board on that side was Special Agent William McIntyre. On the right running board standing forward was Special Agent John Ready, and standing in back of him on the rear of the right running board was Special Agent Paul Landis.

Mr. SPECTER. Did that automobile have jump seats?

Mr. KELLERMAN. This automobile has jump seats.

Mr. SPECTER. And what people occupied the jump seats?

Mr. KELLERMAN. It was occupied by Mr. Kenneth O'Donnell, who was the appointment secretary of President Kennedy, and Mr. Dave Powers.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know which sat on which side?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Mr. O'Donnell sat on the left; Mr. Powers sat on the right.

Mr. SPECTER. Who was in the back seat of that automobile?

Mr. KELLERMAN. The back seat of that automobile on the right side was Special Agent George Hickey, and on the left side Special Agent Glen Bennett.

Mr. SPECTER. How were the special agents in the followup car armed, if at all?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Each agent carries his own gun. This is a 4-inch revolver on their person.

Mr. SPECTER. Would that apply to you and Mr. Greer as well?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Absolutely.

Mr. SPECTER. Were there any other arms in the President's followup car?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; in this followup car we have what is now known as an AR-15. This is a rifle, and it is on all movements; this vehicle is out of the case; it won't be shown; it could be laying flat on the floor, but she is ready to go.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, how far behind the President's car did the Presidential followup car follow?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Not knowing how far it was behind, I would say, from the practice of that driver that he has, five feet would be a maximum.

Mr. SPECTER. What car was in the motorcade immediately behind the President's followup car?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That was Vice President Johnson's car then.

Mr. SPECTER. What kind of a car was that on that particular day?

Mr. KELLERMAN. This was a Lincoln four-door Continental convertible. This was a four-door car, with no top on it.

Mr. SPECTER. Is that a special car, also, or is that obtained on the market?

Mr. KELLERMAN. This is not a special car; it is a car that is on the market.

Mr. SPECTER. What car followed the Vice President's car?

Mr. KELLERMAN. The car following his car was a police car. It was driven by a member of the Dallas Police Force, or I just don't recall. I am sorry.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have personal knowledge or detail of the occupants of the Vice President's car?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; I do.

Mr. SPECTER. Who was present there?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Special Agent Rufus Youngblood sat in the front seat on the right side. In back of him on the right side and the rear was the then Vice President Johnson. Next to him was Mrs. Johnson, and next to Mrs. Johnson was Senator Yarborough.

Mr. SPECTER. Was Vice President Johnson seated on the right side or the left side of the rear seat?

Mr. KELLERMAN. On the right side, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Were there jump seats in the Vice President's car?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know the identity of the driver of the Vice President's car?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Who was that?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That was Mr. Hurchel Jacks. He is a Dallas police officer.

Mr. SPECTER. Might he be a Texas State police officer?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; you are right.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know the identity of all of the individuals in the Vice President's followup car?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Not the driver. The agents, yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Who were they, sir?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Special Agent Thomas L. Johns, Special Agent Warren Taylor, and I believe that is all.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to indicate their precise positions?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, no.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, what car, if you know, followed the Vice President's followup car?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That was car--as an example, car No. 1, which would be a congressional car; the occupants I do not know at the present time.

Mr. SPECTER. And behind that car, describe in a general way the balance of the motorcade, if you will, please.

Mr. KELLERMAN. All right. The balance of the motorcade, the back of that car No. 1 which would be the congressional people would be two press cars, one covering the wire people, and one would be the photographic group. Then you would have a series of guest cars, and then a press bus. And then a police car followup, bringing up the entire motorcade.

Mr. SPECTER. You described the motorcycles which followed the pilot car. Were there any other motorcycles in the motorcade?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; we had four other motorcycles opposite the back wheel of the President's vehicle, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Were those on both sides or on each side?

Mr. KELLERMAN. On each side; two on each side.

Mr. SPECTER. Were there any other motorcycles in the balance of the motorcade?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Not that I recall.

Mr. SPECTER. At what speed did the motorcade proceed at the various times en route, say, from Love Field down to the downtown section of Dallas, Tex.?

Mr. KELLERMAN. As we left Love Field, the driveway from this apron on the field was sort of a winding thing, and there were many people that gathered on the roadside to view him as they passed. I don't think we traveled more than 12 to 15 miles until we left the airport apron proper.

Mr. SPECTER. Twelve to fifteen miles per hour?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Per hour.

Mr. SPECTER. Yes.

Mr. KELLERMAN. Then, as we were in the opening between there and the city limits of Dallas, we could have gone 25 to 30.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the size of the crowd at that specific point?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Nothing in between then until we hit the outskirts of the city. Of course, then you got into a residential, a school, area where all the people were out on the curb line.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the speed when you reached that area?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Then we would reduce the speed down to 15 miles an hour.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of the minimum speed traveled until you reached the downtown area?

Mr. KELLERMAN. We could have been going 25 to 30 at several times, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What were the crowds like in the downtown area itself?

Mr. KELLERMAN. A lot of people.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the speed of the motorcade when you came into the downtown area?

Mr. KELLERMAN. It would be reduced down to 10 to 15 miles an hour, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Were there any unusual occurrences en route from Love Field until, say, you got to the downtown area of Dallas, Tex.?

Mr. KELLERMAN. As we were on the outskirts of this town and apparently reaching a crowded area there were a group of youngsters on the right side of the car curb-line-wise, that had a large sign, oh, perhaps the width of the two windows there, that said, "Please, Mr. President, stop and shake our hands," and he saw this and he called to the driver and said, "Stop," he said, "call these people over and I will shake their hands," which we did. The entire motorcade stopped. I got out of the car and stood alongside of it while these people were right up on me. The agents who were on the followup car, all around it. And then after a few seconds he said, "All right; let's travel on."

Mr. SPECTER. You say the agents in the followup car moved up at the stopping?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Always, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Specifically, what did they do on that occasion?

Mr. KELLERMAN. They crowded right in between the President, the car, and the people.

Mr. SPECTER. Did the President actually leave the car?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No.

Mr. SPECTER. And how long did that stop last?

Mr. KELLERMAN. A matter of seconds.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any other unusual occurrence en route to the downtown area itself?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I can recall, however, one small affair. I think we were in the heart of Dallas on this street when a young boy jumped off the curb and apparently he was thinking of running over to the President's car and shaking his hands when one of our people left the followup car and put him back on the curb, and that all happened in motion so there was nothing out of the way.

Mr. SPECTER. I show you a photograph marked Commission Exhibit No. 347 and ask you if you are at this time able to tell us what that photograph represents.

The CHAIRMAN. Congressman Ford, may I interrupt at this time to ask to be excused? I have a session in the Supreme Court, but I will be back later.

Representative FORD. Thank you very much, Mr. Chief Justice.

(Chief Justice Warren left the hearing room.)

Mr. KELLERMAN. This is an aerial photo of the downtown parade.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to identify the street on which you proceeded coming into the area depicted by that photograph?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. This is--this would be Main Street as we came into the heart of Dallas.

Mr. SPECTER. I think it might be helpful if we marked that as Main Street if we can get a pencil or pen that will mark on that.

Mr. CRAIG. May I suggest the witness mark it?

Mr. SPECTER. I think it is a good idea. Will you mark the street which you have identified as Main Street?

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. Will you also mark----

Mr. KELLERMAN. We were traveling----

Mr. SPECTER. The street onto which you turned from Main Street?

Mr. KELLERMAN. As we were coming up from Main Street or down, either way.

Mr. SPECTER. In what general direction were you proceeding on Main Street?

Mr. KELLERMAN. This was a westerly direction.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you put an arrow indicating which way is north on the map? That is a general northerly direction on the map.

(Witness indicating.)

Mr. SPECTER. Will you mark an arrow on Main Street showing the direction on which you were proceeding on Main? And how far did you proceed on Main Street to what street?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Elm Street, sir. This is a very short block, maybe a couple of hundred feet at the most.

Mr. SPECTER. My question was to what street did you proceed on Main? You then drove to what street?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Houston Street.

Mr. SPECTER. Which way did you turn onto Houston Street?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Turned right, which would be north.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you mark the street that you have told us would be Houston Street?

(Witness indicating.)

Mr. SPECTER. How far did you proceed down Houston Street?