Part 10

Mr. RANKIN. Is there anything else about that incident that you know and want to tell the Commission at this time?

Mr. LANE. No.

The CHAIRMAN. That is the entire story, is it?

Mr. LANE. That they were there for more than 2 hours conferring--these three persons.

The CHAIRMAN. Your information does not--is not to the effect as to what they were conferring on.

Mr. LANE. No; they did not hear that.

Mr. RANKIN. I am not suggesting, Mr. Lane, that you have been selective about what you have told the Commission and what you have not told, but I do wish to make the inquiry as to whether there is any information you might have that the Commission should be informed of as to other people that you might have interviewed in regard to this matter.

Mr. LANE. I have given the Commission at this time everything that I know.

Mr. RANKIN. Is there anything about the palm prints that you can tell us in addition to what you have given us?

Mr. LANE. Not in addition to what I have said.

Mr. RANKIN. Well, I will ask you generally--is there anything in addition to what you have said that you would like to tell the Commission at this time that has any bearing upon this investigation?

Mr. LANE. All I can say in reference to that, Mr. Rankin, is that I am practically engaged in this project by myself, which means I am extremely limited. This is not my profession--investigator. I am an attorney. And there are many leads which I have followed, which have led me nowhere at all, obviously. Before finding Mrs. Markham or before finding Mrs. Hill, there were many other persons I talked to who were not even present, who I have heard were present. But there are still large numbers, probably at this point hundreds of leads which I have heard of, and which I have not yet been able to trace or to check through. I do not think it would be constructive just to tell you all of the things I have heard, because most of them are patently untrue, and they just require a great deal of work. But I will continue to do that, and should I come across any material which might in any way interest you, I will certainly either write to you for the purpose of presenting it to you through the mail in affidavit form, if you prefer, or indicate that I will be available to come and testify again if you prefer that.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Lane, your client, Mrs. Marguerite Oswald, when she was testifying before us, told us that she had sold some pictures to the press and she wanted the originals of all the pictures that she presented to us, because she said they were of great financial value to her. Do you know what sales she has made concerning pictures such as you have shown us?

Mr. LANE. In terms of the picture with the rifle, you mean, for example?

The CHAIRMAN. Well, we might start with that.

Mr. LANE. She has never seen such a picture, she has informed me, of Lee Harvey Oswald with the rifle--except after they had been published. She never had any knowledge of such pictures, and had never seen them.

I do not really represent Marguerite Oswald. She has retained me to represent the interests of her son. And so in her business dealings in terms of her sale of pictures and articles, I have not represented her. I believe she has a literary agent or perhaps even another lawyer--I don't know. But she has retained me to represent her son's interests, not to represent her at all.

The CHAIRMAN. I see.

Mr. LANE. Of course, we have conferred. But I do not have that information.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Mr Lane, I have a further question. Have you ever been prevented by any law enforcement officer from interviewing anyone concerning this matter when you wished to?

Mr. LANE. Well, I would say that I have been prevented by the statements made by the law enforcement persons or agents to the individual, that he should not talk to anyone about this case, that it is a secret matter. As I have indicated, Mr. Klein----

Mr. RANKIN. You have described those cases, have you?

Mr. LANE. I have also spoken to a reporter who is employed by a Dallas newspaper, who informed me that he sought to question more than 150 in the area, and that many of those persons informed him that they were ordered by the FBI not to talk to anyone about this case, and that almost none of the witnesses would talk with him about the case, and that some of them, when he asked the reason that they were not talking to him, it was "Was this because you have been told by the FBI?"--and he indicated they were not even allowed to answer that question. But many of them told him that the FBI or the Secret Service ordered them not to talk. In no other respect have I been interfered with to my knowledge.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you have the name of that reporter--can you reveal that to us?

Mr. LANE. I cannot reveal it at this time, but I am hopeful you will permit me to. He is one of the reporters I referred to earlier.

Mr. RANKIN. Thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator, do you have any questions?

Senator COOPER. No; I have no questions.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Rhyne.

Mr. RHYNE. Mr. Chief Justice--I wanted to ask Mr. Lane, on his inquiry about what happened to Oswald during the 48 hours he was under detention--you suggested that the Commission make an inquiry into whether his civil rights were denied. Do you have any information on that subject?

Mr. LANE. Yes. I saw what happened--I read in the newspapers and heard on the radio.

Mr. RHYNE. It looked to me that most of the material presented here today was really in the newspapers. You are merely repeating what someone else has said.

Mr. LANE. I don't think that is an accurate characterization of my testimony at all, sir. For example, I told you before of conversations that I have had--I know you listened intently--I told you of conversations that I had with Mr. Klein. I told you of conversations I had with Miss Hill, who is probably the closest eyewitness to the assassination, with Miss Woodward, who is perhaps the second or third closest witness to the assassination, with Dial Ryder, with at least two or three other persons.

Mr. RHYNE. But on this one point, with respect to denial of any civil rights or protection of civil rights during this 48-hour period, you say that is all in the newspaper stories?

Mr. LANE. No. What I meant by that response was that the basic denial that I was discussing was the development of the case publicly against him, so that it would be impossible in securing a jury panel to secure 12 jurors probably anywhere in this country who had not reached a conclusion, first of all. And secondly, obviously the death of the accused, which I know is a matter for the Commission's inquiry already.

Mr. RHYNE. I notice that you said your investigation was incomplete. So I just wanted to be sure that I understood what you meant with respect to this 48-hour detention period.

Mr. LANE. No; I have no knowledge over and above that that I could give you in that area.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Murray, do you have any questions you would like to ask?

Mr. MURRAY. No; I have none, Mr. Chief Justice, at this time.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, Mr. Lane, if any evidence should come to your attention in the future, would you be willing to convey the information to the Commission?

Mr. LANE. Yes; I certainly would, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. We will appreciate it if you would. Thank you for your attendance.

We will adjourn at this time.

(Whereupon, at 5:35 p.m., the President's Commission adjourned, and reconvened in executive session.)

TESTIMONY OF MR. LANE RESUMED IN EXECUTIVE SESSION

The CHAIRMAN. The session will be in order.

Mr. RANKIN. Will you proceed, Mr. Lane, in executive session now, to describe the names?

Mr. LANE. The third name that I was informed--the person that I was informed was there, the third person, is named Jack Ruby. It was my feeling, of course, while his case was pending it would not be proper to comment on that in the presence of the press.

Mr. RANKIN. You mean the third person in the group apparently conferring?

Mr. LANE. Yes. Tippit, Weissman, and Ruby.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you made any public statement of this kind before on this subject--about this meeting?

Mr. LANE. Not about Ruby--about a meeting between Weissman and Tippit, yes.

The CHAIRMAN. But you never named Ruby publicly?

Mr. LANE. No; I have not. I shall not.

The CHAIRMAN. I see. Do you know any way by which we might corroborate that meeting--the fact that it was held?

Mr. LANE. I am going this evening to see, or tomorrow--I will try this evening first--to see if I can secure permission by my informant to reveal his name, and I hope he will be willing to come forward and testify as to what took place.

The CHAIRMAN. The Commission would like to know it, if you can do that.

Mr. LANE. Yes; I shall inform you as soon as I discover that. I would like very much for the Commission to have that information. Can I indicate to my informant that the matter can be so raised so that his name will not be known to anyone other than the Commission?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes, sir; you may.

Mr. LANE. That will be extremely helpful.

The CHAIRMAN. If you can think of any way that can be corroborated, it would be most helpful to us.

Mr. LANE. I understand.

The CHAIRMAN. Congressman, you just got in as we are about to adjourn. Mr. Lane was telling us of one piece of information that he had concerning a meeting that was held at the Carousel Nightclub, about a week, did you say----

Mr. LANE. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. About a week before the assassination, at which the man who financed this full-page article in the paper, Dallas paper, this morning, concerning President Kennedy, and Officer Tippit, and he told us in private here--he didn't want to mention it before the press--Jack Ruby. And he tells us that he will try to find out from his informant more about that, and if he possibly can deliver the information to us.

Senator COOPER. May I ask one question?

I assume from what you have said you wouldn't be able to answer it, but was there any reason ascribed for the presence of Tippit?

Mr. LANE. My informant does not know the reason.

Senator COOPER. Or Ruby, with Weissman?

Mr. LANE. My informant does not know that information.

Representative FORD. May I ask a question, Mr. Chief Justice? When did this information come to your attention, Mr. Lane?

Mr. LANE. Some weeks ago.

Representative FORD. Do you consider the informant a reliable, responsible person?

Mr. LANE. Yes. I cannot vouch, of course, for the information personally, but I believe the informant is a reliable and a responsible person.

Representative FORD. Would your informant be willing, as far as you know--be willing to testify and give the Commission this information directly?

Mr. LANE. I am going to try to arrange that this evening. The Chief Justice has indicated that his name would not be known if he did that, and that I did not know that I could make that statement to him before now. I hope that will be decisive.

The CHAIRMAN. Is there anything further, gentlemen?

If not----

Representative FORD. May I ask, Mr. Chairman, are we going to have a schedule laid out, are we going to have a meeting of the Commission where maybe we will know what the schedule is in the next week or 10 days or 2 weeks?

Mr. RANKIN. We have a draft now.

The CHAIRMAN. We have a draft for you to see.

Mr. LANE. Perhaps I should withdraw at this time.

The CHAIRMAN. All right.

Mr. Lane, thank you very much, sir.

(Whereupon, at 5:45 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)

_Monday, March 9, 1964_

TESTIMONY OF ROY H. KELLERMAN, WILLIAM ROBERT GREER, CLINTON J. HILL, AND RUFUS WAYNE YOUNGBLOOD

The President's Commission met at 9:10 a.m. on March 9, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.

Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Sherman Cooper, Representative Hale Boggs, and Representative Gerald R. Ford, members.

Also present were Norman Redlich, assistant counsel; Arlen Specter, assistant counsel; Walter Craig and Charles Murray, observers; and Fred Smith, Treasury Department.

TESTIMONY OF ROY H. KELLERMAN, SPECIAL AGENT, SECRET SERVICE

The CHAIRMAN. Gentlemen, the Commission will be in order. Will you be seated, please?

Would you state the names of the witnesses who are to be heard today, Mr. Specter?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes, Your Honor; the witnesses are to be Roy Kellerman of the Secret Service, William R. Greer of the Secret Service, Clinton Hill, also of the Secret Service, and Rufus Youngblood, representative of the Secret Service.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well, gentlemen; you know the purpose of the meeting, and we will call first, Mr. who?

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman is our first witness.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Kellerman. Gentlemen, I want to announce that today it will be necessary for me to spend practically all of the morning with the Supreme Court, and in my absence Congressman Ford will conduct the hearing today because he can be here practically all the time. I will be here in and out throughout the day, however.

Congressman Ford, will you take over please?

Representative FORD. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Will you proceed? I believe the first thing is to swear the witness.

Mr. SPECTER. Very good, sir.

Representative FORD. Do you promise to tell the truth, the whole truth, so help you God?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I do, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you state your full name for the record, please?

Mr. KELLERMAN. My name is Roy H. Kellerman.

Mr. SPECTER. By whom are you employed, Mr. Kellerman?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I am employed as a special agent for the Secret Service.

Mr. SPECTER. How old are you?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I am 48 years old.

Mr. SPECTER. Married?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Pardon?

Mr. SPECTER. Are you married?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; I am married and have two daughters; their ages are 20 and 17.

Mr. SPECTER. Where do you reside?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Bethesda, Md.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your current duty station with the Secret Service?

Mr. KELLERMAN. My current duty station is assistant special agent in charge of the White House detail.

Mr. SPECTER. How long have you been with the Secret Service?

Mr. KELLERMAN. This is my 23d year.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you sketch in a general outline what your duties have been with the Secret Service since the time you started with them, please?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I was appointed an agent with the Secret Service in Detroit, Mich., the 19th of December 1941. I was transferred to Washington, D.C., the field office, on February 9, 1942. Prior to that I had a 30-day assignment in the office of Cincinnati, Ohio, temporarily. I worked in the Washington field office from the 9th of February 1942 until the middle of March 1942, whereby I was temporarily transferred to the White House detail. This transfer became permanent, effective, I believe it was, the 17th of April or the latter part of April in 1942, still as a special agent.

At the White House detail we work on shifts around the clock, protecting the President and his family. I was a member of one of those three shifts. Presently, these shifts change on a two-weekly basis, from 8 to 4, 4 to midnight, and midnight to 8. I remained on the White House detail until February 7, 1951, when I was transferred to Indianapolis, Ind. Prior to that time I had received enough seniority whereby I grew up on this shift from the bottom to the top, and was in charge of one of the shifts prior to my departure to Indianapolis. This was fieldwork in Indiana.

On February 1, 1955, I was transferred back to the White House detail. On my return I was comparable to like, let's say, the No. 2 man of a shift. I was not in charge of it.

From 1955, I believe a couple of years later a vacancy occurred, a top man of that shift left and I received his position. That title was assistant to the special agent in charge. You at that time governed each man on your shift. You were in charge of him.

On October 1 of 1962 a vacancy was opened in the three top officials of the White House detail, which are comprised of, let me say, the special agent in charge, who has two assistants; one vacancy occurred. It was the oldest man on the White House detail; it was given to me and that is why today I have the title of assistant special agent in charge.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, since you brought us up to 1955, have your duties remained the same since that time?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I should bring you up to 1964. In 1955, I was transferred back to the White House detail, remained on that status on shift work until 1962, whereas I am now an assistant special agent in charge, which duties are the overseeing and the complete responsibility of the entire White House detail.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your educational background, Mr.----

Mr. KELLERMAN. I am a high school graduate only.

Mr. SPECTER. What year did you graduate from high school?

Mr. KELLERMAN. 1933.

Mr. SPECTER. What were your activities between graduation from high school and the time you joined the Secret Service, please?

Mr. KELLERMAN. In October of 1937 I completed the training with the Michigan State Police. I was sworn in as a trooper. I remained with the Michigan State Police until December 18, 1941, when I resigned and was appointed to the U.S. Secret Service.

Mr. SPECTER. How were you employed or occupied from the time of graduation from high school until the time you joined the Michigan State Police?

Mr. KELLERMAN. 1933 there wasn't too much work; 1935 was my first work with the Dodge Corp. of the Chrysler people in Detroit.

Mr. SPECTER. How long did you work there, sir?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Three years, off and on.

Mr. SPECTER. You described in a general way the organization of the Secret Service on the White House protective detail. Who is the special agent in charge?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Mr. Gerald A. Behn, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Was he the special agent in charge back on November 22, 1963?

Mr. KELLERMAN. He was.

Mr. SPECTER. How many shifts are there?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Three shifts, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And approximately how many men are assigned to each shift?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Ten men on each shift, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What were your specific duties back on November 22 of 1963?

Mr. KELLERMAN. My specific duty, gentlemen, on the 22d of November of 1963, I was in charge of the detail for this trip of President Kennedy, for the trip to Texas in those 2 days.

Mr. SPECTER. How did you personally make the trip to Texas?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I rode on the President's plane on the entire tour.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline in a general way the times of departure and arrival on the trip to Texas up until the morning of November 22, please?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I just don't have the time we left Washington, D.C.

Mr. SPECTER. Without the precise times; just in a general way.

Mr. KELLERMAN. All right. We departed in the morning from Washington. Our first stop was in San Antonio, Tex.

Mr. SPECTER. Which morning was that, sir?

Mr. KELLERMAN. It was November 21; it was at San Antonio, Tex., that we picked up the then Vice President Johnson. The two people continued on this tour of the State in separate planes. During our stay in San Antonio, we then flew from San Antonio to Houston, Tex. There were ceremonies there, and the program there which had been set up. From Houston we flew into Fort Worth, Tex., where we remained overnight on November 21.

We arrived at the Texas Hotel, it was a little after 11 o'clock in the evening. There were no activities until the following morning, November 22.

Mr. SPECTER. What time did the activities start the following morning?

Mr. KELLERMAN. On November 22, the activities started at around 8:25 in the morning when the President, accompanied by the then Vice President Johnson, and a few congressional leaders walked out the front door, across this street which was a parking lot, and a few minutes' speech was made to the gathering there. It was a light drizzle at the time. From there we returned to the hotel and he attended a breakfast given by the chamber of commerce and, I believe it was, a citizens group of Fort Worth. On completion of the breakfast he returned to his suite. The weather was then changing. It had quit raining and it looked like it was going to break out and be a real beautiful day. In the neighborhood of 10 o'clock in the morning I received a call from Mr. Lawson, Special Agent Lawson, who had the advance from Dallas, Tex.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Lawson was with the Secret Service, was he?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; he is. He asked me to determine whether the bubbletop car that the President would ride in in Dallas that day should have the top down or remain up.

Mr. SPECTER. Let me interrupt you there for just a minute, Mr. Kellerman. I show you a photograph which has been marked as Commission Exhibit No. 344. Are you able to identify that picture and the automobile in that picture?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; this is the 1961 Lincoln Continental four-door convertible bubbletop. It is a special car.

Mr. SPECTER. For the purpose of the record, how many doors does that car have?

Mr. KELLERMAN. This vehicle has four doors.

Mr. SPECTER. And in the posture of the picture identified as Commission Exhibit 344, is the top up or down?

Mr. KELLERMAN. The top is down, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And what top does that automobile have?

Mr. KELLERMAN. This top is a plastic top. From the rear of the passenger all the way to the windshield there are four sections of plastic glass. The one that comes over the top of the passengers in the back seat, two little sections that come over the two doors, and one over the driver and passenger in the front seat.

Mr. SPECTER. In what way is that attached, if any, to the car?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Securely bolted, screwed.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chairman, may I ask that the Exhibit 344 be introduced formally in evidence, please?

Representative FORD. It will be so admitted.

(The photograph referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 344 for identification and received in evidence.)

Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you a photograph marked Commission Exhibit 345. Are you able to tell us what that depicts?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; this is the same vehicle as mentioned in 344. The difference being the top is up and there is a covering, a cloth covering that also fits over this plastic top.

Mr. SPECTER. And Exhibit No. 345 is taken from what angle, Mr. Kellerman?

Mr. KELLERMAN. From the rear, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. As contrasted with Exhibit No. 344, which is taken from what angle?

Mr. KELLERMAN. This is from the right side.

Mr. SPECTER. I ask that Exhibit 345 be introduced, if the Commission please.

Representative FORD. So admitted.

(The photograph referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 345 for identification and received in evidence.)

Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you a photograph marked Commission Exhibit 346, Mr. Kellerman, and ask you if you can tell us what that depicts.

Mr. KELLERMAN. This picture depicts the interior of this same automobile. It has a rear solid seat; there are two other jump seats that can be folded forward in the rear and the complete solid front seat for the driver and passenger. This is the same vehicle.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe what, if anything, is present between the front seat and the rear seat area?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. This metal partition that is erected in back of the driver, between the driver and the passengers in the rear seat, is a metal framework that goes over the car. It has four holes in it. These holes are utilized by the President for parades. As an example, say it was used in Washington where you had an official visitor, and in using one of the streets here as your parade route, he and his guest would stand in this car where the people could view them a little better than sitting in the rear seat.

Mr. SPECTER. Where is that metal bar positioned with respect to the front seat?