letter I received from Lee.

Mr. RANKIN. I call the attention of the Commission to the statement in Exhibit 180, "She was living at her aunt's place when I met her. They are real nice people. Her uncle is a major in the Soviet Army."

Exhibit 181, dated August 3, 1961, was the envelope postmarked United States, August 10, 1961. I also offer that.

Exhibit 182, dated October 2, 1961, with the American postmark October 10, 1961. I also offer that.

In each case, Mr. Chairman, I ask leave to substitute copies in accordance with our understanding.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes. We will make a blanket ruling on all of them when you finish.

Mr. RANKIN. Yes, sir.

Exhibit 183, dated October 22, 1959, with the American postmark on the envelope October 30, 1961. I offer it.

Mr. DULLES. Did you say 1959 and then 1961?

Mr. RANKIN. '61----

Mr. DULLES. It is all '61?

Mr. RANKIN. You are correct--October 22, 1959, is the date on the letter.

Mrs. OSWALD. That is incorrect.

Mr. RANKIN. And on the envelope it is October 30, 1961, Vernon, Tex. Mrs. Oswald, can you explain that?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Evidently Lee put the date incorrect--because I had no contact with Lee from the time--I had one contact with Lee from the time that he defected to Russia. And the only contact was when he was at the Metropole Hotel in Moscow. Then the next contact was when the State Department wrote me his address, which was July, or June 1961. So where Lee put the 1959, I would say it was just an error, because the postmark proves the date.

As I have been saying FBI instead of Secret Service--I mean it is just----

Mr. RANKIN. A slip of some kind?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. Is the 1959 letter available, the Metropole Hotel letter?

Mrs. OSWALD. When we go into the defection, I have letters from 1959 that I myself have sent to Lee and have been returned, and, gentlemen, they are unopened, and I will give you the privilege of opening my thoughts to my son. They were returned unopened, because he was not located.

Mr. RANKIN. I might answer your question, Mr. Dulles. We have a copy of the Metropole letter of 1959.

Mr. DOYLE. Mr. Rankin, could I check--your Exhibit 182, the one you called just before this--I gathered that you gave a date of the letter and also a date of the postmark. Am I correct--October 2, 1961, is the date of the letter, and October 10, 1961, is the postmark.

Mr. RANKIN. That's correct.

Mr. DOYLE. Thank you, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, with regard to Exhibit 183, which bears the date October 22, 1959, in error, with October 30, 1961, as the postmark on the envelope, I wish to call the Commission's attention to this reference.

"Marina's maiden name was Prusakova. Her aunt and uncle's address in Minsk is"--and then the address is set out in Russian. And then continuing the same sentence--"they don't speak any English. However, her uncle is an Army colonel soon to retire."

Mrs. OSWALD. And that I would think would be the letter that the Secret Service--was one of the letters that the Secret Service, as I previously stated, had.

Now, may I say something here?

Marina uses two names--Prusakova and Nikolaevna. Whether she was married before, or whether she uses two maiden names, I do not know. But I have a record of both names.

Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 183.

Representative FORD. Mr. Rankin, don't we have a record of those two names? Isn't one her maiden name and the other by her mother--and the other by her stepfather?

Mr. RANKIN. That is the record we have. That is what Mrs. Marina Oswald testified to. She testified in regard to Nikolaevna. And the other name appears on her papers as the father.

Mrs. OSWALD. But now Lee has said in one of those letters that her name is Nikolaevna. But then when he asked me in one of the letters to get an affidavit of support that Marina could come to the United States, that name appeared--Nikolaevna. Yet there are a couple of letters where he refers to her name as Prusakova. And I have it in his handwriting--when he gave me the slip of paper for the baptism he used Prusakova--Marina Prusakova Oswald. He did not use the name in the letters. That is what I find peculiar.

Mr. RANKIN. The explanation was that the Prusakova was the identification of the father, which is often done. And she explained that with regard to the child they did not want to name June Lee Oswald with your son's name, if you recall--that is your son did not want that. But the Russian Government insisted that the father's name had to be shown.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I am familiar with that. I have done research on that. In Russia the father's name is used even if it is a girl. Now, Mr. Peter Gregory--his name is Peter Gregory, and his father's name is Peter, so his name is Peter Peter Gregory. They always use the father's name as a second name, regardless of sex. So June is named June Lee Oswald, which is Lee's name. And if there were two Lees it would be Lee Lee Oswald. That I know of.

Mr. RANKIN. Exhibit 184 is dated November 8, 1961, and bears a postmark on the envelope November 18, 1961. I offer it in evidence.

Exhibit 185 is dated November 23d, without any year on the letter itself, with the postmark December 4, 1961, as the American postmark on the envelope. I offer Exhibit 185.

Exhibit 186 is Christmas greetings and bears the date December 12, 1961, stamped on the envelope. I offer Exhibit 186.

Exhibit 187 bears the date December 13, 1961, on the letter, and bears the postmark date December 26, 1961, on the envelope. I offer Exhibit 187.

Exhibit 188 bears the date December 20th, without any year on the letter, and the date January 2, 1962, stamped on the envelope. I offer Exhibit 188.

Exhibit 189 bears the date January 2d, and the stamped postmark on the envelope January 11, 1962. I offer Exhibit 189.

Exhibit 190 bears the date January 23d, on the envelope, January 22, 1961, written on the back of the envelope. I offer in evidence Exhibit 190.

Exhibit 191 bears the date January 20th, and stamped on the envelope is January 29, 1962. I offer Exhibit 191.

Mr. DULLES. These are all airmail letters?

Mrs. OSWALD. They are all registered return receipt mailed. Everything I had to sign for.

Mr. DULLES. Nine or 10 days apparently, it took.

Representative BOGGS. That is right--about 10 days, each one of them.

Mr. RANKIN. Apparently--it states "Par Avion". But this one bears a mark February 1, 1962, on Exhibit 192, and the letter itself is February 1, 1962. That is pretty fast.

Mr. DULLES. It must be 11. Isn't there a 1 left out on the other side?

Mr. RANKIN. Well, it is in handwriting. So that would be pretty fast mail. I offer Exhibit 192.

Exhibit 193, dated February 9, 1962, on the letter, and it is stamped on the envelope as February 23, 1962. I offer Exhibit 193.

Exhibit 194 is dated February 15, 1962, on the letter, and stamped on the envelope March 1, 1962. I offer Exhibit 194.

Exhibit 195 is dated February 24th, without a year date, and the envelope is stamped March 7, 1962. I offer Exhibit 195.

Exhibit 196 is dated March 28th, stamped on the envelope is April 9, 1962. I offer Exhibit 196.

Exhibit 197 is dated April 22d, without a year date on the letter, and stamped on the envelope is April 28, 1962. I offer Exhibit 197.

Exhibit 198 is dated May 30, 1962, on the letter, and is stamped on the envelope June 6, 19--it doesn't show clearly what the year is, but there is a 196, and I take it is 1962. I offer Exhibit 198.

The CHAIRMAN. All of the documents that have just been offered in evidence may be admitted and take the numbers assigned to them.

(The documents heretofore marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 180 through 198 for identification, were received in evidence.)

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't believe this letter belongs with the letters. May I see it, please? Is that a letter from Russia? I don't think so, from what I can see from here.

Mr. RANKIN. It purports to be, Mrs. Oswald. I hand it to you. It is Exhibit 198 you are speaking of?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I'm sorry. There was another very important letter of this size that I thought maybe became confused with the Russian letters. You will have to forgive me, Chief Justice Warren, but this is quite a big undertaking.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes. I just wanted to keep the record straight. It is all right.

Mr. RANKIN. I ask leave, Mr. Chairman, to substitute copies in each instance.

The CHAIRMAN. That may be done.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, Mrs. Oswald, will you proceed with telling us how you determined or concluded that there was a conspiracy between the Secret Service people that you described and Marina Oswald?

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, when I stopped--I have to remember where I stopped. Now, am I still at the Six Flags?

Mr. RANKIN. The last I recall you were still there. You had also described, if you remember, the offer of Mrs. Pultz to take your daughter-in-law and provide her a home. You have said that you had not seen your daughter for quite some time, and you tried to communicate with her.

Mrs. OSWALD. Oh, yes--I was trying to communicate with her.

Mr. RANKIN. And you talked to Mr. Thorne?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes--that was where my mail had been opened. And Mr. Mark Lane has my mail and the photostatic copies of the mail.

Mr. RANKIN. I think the Commission would be very much interested in how you conclude that there was a conspiracy--if you can help on that.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I can help you. But I have many, many stories. I have to start from the defection. I have a story of Lee's life at age 16 that maybe you know about, maybe you don't. And I have many stories, gentlemen. I cannot do all these stories in these 6 hours I have been here today. I have covered quite a bit. I have many stories.

Representative BOGGS. Why did your son defect to Russia?

Mrs. OSWALD. I cannot answer that yes or no, sir. I am going to go through the whole story, or it is no good. And that is what I have been doing for this Commission all day long--giving a story.

Representative BOGGS. Suppose you just make it very brief.

Mrs. OSWALD. I cannot make it brief. I will say I am unable to make it brief. This is my life and my son's life going down in history. And I want the opportunity to tell the story with documents, as I have been doing. I am not going to answer yes or no, because it is no good.

Representative BOGGS. Well, you use the expression "defector." I did not use that expression.

Mrs. OSWALD. I said "so-called defector." The papers have "defector" and blown it up.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, Mrs. Oswald, you have told us, though, that you believed that Mrs. Marina Oswald and Mrs. Paine and two Secret Service agents were in a conspiracy that resulted in the assassination of the President.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. And I also say----

The CHAIRMAN. What Mr. Rankin has asked you is what led you to the belief that there was such a conspiracy?

Mrs. OSWALD. I can answer that, sir. But just to answer in one sentence----

The CHAIRMAN. No, you don't have to do it in one sentence. Take your own time, but stick to that one subject, please, until we get rid of that, and then we will go to the other things.

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, it is now quarter to four. And this is a very long story.

The CHAIRMAN. Don't worry, we will give you the time.

Mrs. OSWALD. Would you please consider I am very emotionally upset and tired, sir. I was up until 1 o'clock this morning fixing these papers for the Commission. When Mr. Rankin asked me to come on Thursday, they were not in the order they are now.

The CHAIRMAN. You mean you cannot go on this afternoon?

Mrs. OSWALD. Not the whole story.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, give us as much as you can of it, and we will stop whenever----

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, I have so far given you enough story to state this as a fact--that I believe--I am saying as I believe, sir, because if I knew who shot President Kennedy, I would be more than happy to tell you, and we would end it right then and there. But there is speculation among everyone. So naturally there is speculation by myself, and these stories I have told you are fact.

Marina became very unhappy with America. This I know for a fact. And then I will say this is part of another story.

Marina told me at Mrs. Paine's home that she wrote to the Russian counsel to go back to Russia because, "Lee not get work." Now, that is why Lee tried to get a visa in Mexico. But you see, sir, I was going to tell that whole story of that. But I will answer this--and that is what I based that on, too.

It was Marina who wrote to the Russian counsel for exit visas, and Lee followed it up. That is Marina having Lee do this. And she told me herself. Yet she states that Lee wanted to live in Russia and Cuba. But Marina wrote to the Russian counsel, "Mama, Lee not get work." So she wanted to go back to Russia. She liked America. She wanted to stay here.

Mr. RANKIN. About what date was this?

Mrs. OSWALD. This was the night in Mrs. Paine's home. I didn't tell you that, because these other stories are important, and I was going to bring it in for the Mexican trip. That is why I think you are confusing me. I'm sorry. But these stories--the way I want to say it, I would not forget anything by going in sequence. This way, when you are bringing me questions from the Mexican story and from the defection, you are throwing my mind off.

The CHAIRMAN. What story do you want to get to now?

Mrs. OSWALD. I have so many stories. And I have gone through about three or four today, complete stories.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, select one of them, please, and let's don't argue about the order. I want you to tell your story----

Mrs. OSWALD. My energy is exhausted, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. I want you to tell your story in your own way. And if this one exhausts you, select another story, and tell that.

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, can you tell me what short story I can tell, Mr. Doyle?

Mr. DOYLE. Why don't you start with--start and tell the members of the Commission about your accident and Lee's going to Russia.

Mrs. OSWALD. That is a very long story.

Mr. DOYLE. I know. But start it, and if you get tired at all, you advise the Commission, and I am certain that----

Mrs. OSWALD. I will have something very important to this Commission that I would like to say, that would take up some time.

Mr. Rankin, I spoke with you, I think it was Thursday, December 6th, and I told you that since it was publicly known I was going to appear before the Warren Commission, that I would like to have protection, as you recall. I did not get protection, sir. And so the next morning I called you, approximately 9 o'clock, in the morning and told you that I didn't have protection, and I was very concerned. And this would have been Friday, the second call, and that I was going to the bank, to my safety deposit vault, and get the necessary papers. And I definitely wanted complete surveillance, because the papers were going to be with me in my home, and the public knew I was going to testify, and I wanted that protection.

Now, you said, you would get in touch with Mr. Sorrels, sir, and have Mr. Sorrel's call me, which he did approximately an hour after my request to you that I did not have protection. Mr. Sorrels called me and said "Mrs. Oswald, I understand that you want to go to the bank and get your important papers out of the bank, and you have requested protection."

I said, "Yes. I thought I had protection last night. I woke up 4 o'clock in the morning with all the lights lit, getting papers together and cleaning the house." Because the telephone started to ring consistently.

I would have never done that if I would have known I didn't have protection. I was leaving myself wide open.

So he said, "Well, is your attorney in town?"

I said, "No, he is not."

He said, "May I suggest this, Mrs. Oswald"--first, he said, "What do you intend to do with the papers?"

I said, "The papers will stay with me."

He said, "Is your attorney in there?"

I said, "No, sir, he is an out of town attorney."

He said, "May I suggest this. May we get a large brown envelope and put sealing wax on it, and you put the papers in our safety deposit vault."

I said, "No, sir, those papers do not leave my hands. I have had an understanding with Mr. J. Lee Rankin that the papers were going to stay with me, and that I would have complete surveillance while the papers were in my home. Now, Mr. Sorrels, I want that surveillance. I am very uneasy."

He said, "Mrs. Oswald"--this was approximately 10 o'clock in the morning--"Mrs. Oswald, I will not be able to have anyone there before 1 o'clock."

I said, "That is just fine."

Mr. Mike Howard came out at 1 o'clock. We did some errands. I had to buy some luggage, and a few little things for the trip. Then we had supper. And at 5:30 we picked up the papers, because on Friday in Fort Worth, Tex., the bank opens from 4 to 6--on Friday evening. So we picked up the papers before 6 o'clock.

Now, I thought I had protection that night. I had protection that night until 12 o'clock. And then I understand that the Fort Worth police were circling the neighborhood.

Now, that is not complete protection.

I am a government witness, with important papers. And Mr. Rankin had--I requested protection--suppose someone had come to the door, or just shot through my home? The police circling three or four blocks away is not complete protection.

So Saturday morning I wanted to go out to breakfast. I kept opening the door and looking through the windows. And I never did see any men circling the neighborhood. There was nobody around. At 10:30 this morning I was still doing that. And by the way, a police car passed by and I hailed him and asked him if he could check in the neighborhood for the Secret Service, if they were circling the neighborhood--because I want to put my garbage out, and I needed to go out, didn't have breakfast. He said he didn't know what the Secret Service looked like, and he offered to come to the back and put the garbage out for me, which this Fort Worth policeman did.

So at 11 o'clock I called Mr. Mike Howard's home. His wife answered the phone.

I said, "I am very uneasy. I don't have protection. I have been looking for Secret Service men all morning."

I was going out on the porch--I was opening the screen door and going out on the porch. There is a school ground opposite my house. And nobody ever came. I was not under protection.

So she said, "Mrs. Oswald, they have their orders."

I said, "Well, where is Mr. Howard?"

She said, "He is on his way to your home."

This was Saturday, at approximately 11:45. Well, I have it written down. 11:45.

So Mr. Mike Howard when I told him that I was stranded, and could not go out to breakfast, and there was things I needed to do, he realized I was very upset, and I had a legitimate complaint, and he realized I was on my way to Washington.

So in my home he called Mr. Sorrels, who is a special agent in charge of the Secret Service and Mr. Sorrels was not at home. He talked to his daughter. And he said, "It is most important. Would you have him call me?"

So he sat in my home and waited for the call. About half an hour later Mr. Sorrels called.

He said, "Mr. Sorrels. I want to know what to do on this particular case?"

And there was some conversation back and forth. And it went on back and forth conversation.

So I said, "I am getting very upset about not knowing the entire conversation. I want to tell Mr. Sorrels that if he doesn't have the authority, to give me complete protection, I want to know the man over him, so I can get complete protection."

Mr. Mike Howard said, "He heard you, Mrs. Oswald."

So I don't know what went on on the other end of the line.

But Mr. Mike Howard was on the spot.

He said, "Well, Mr. Sorrels, it is this way. She is going to Washington, and Mrs. Oswald wants to go here and wants to go there. And if we are not around to take her, she will certainly complain when she gets to Washington."

So I am assuming now--I am speculating, like everybody else--that Mr. Sorrels probably could have said, "Well, let her think she has protection," because Mr. Mike Howard had to come back in front of me, to his superior, and say, "That is no good. She might want to go some place, so we have to be here. I want to know what to do."

And then I got protection.

Now, isn't that peculiar--that I am a witness, with important papers, and supposed to be under surveillance, and I am not getting protection?

I would like to know the answer to these things. And Mr. Rankin himself called Mr. Sorrels.

Mr. RANKIN. I talked to Mr. Kelley.

Mrs. OSWALD. I am sorry--but I knew you had placed a call, because Mr. Sorrels called me and said you had placed a call.

So why didn't I have complete protection?

There is a lot of "why's." There are a lot of "why's" that have to be answered.

Now, the man last night that met me at the airport--there were two Secret Service men. One of the NBC men, I think it is--I am not quite sure--was at the station. He asked me questions, and he knows about all of this, because he was in Fort Worth, Tex.

I would know his name if you would say it. Dave Benoski, I believe it is.

But he asked me a question. He said, "Mrs. Oswald, have you seen your daughter-in-law?"

I said, "No, I have not seen my daughter-in-law since Thanksgiving Day."

"Well, is it the Secret Service who have kept you from seeing your daughter-in-law?"

And I said, "Yes, it is the Secret Service who has kept me from seeing my daughter-in-law."

Which, to me, is a fact.

So in the car, with your two Secret Service agents, one was Mr. Brown and one was--I am very bad about names--he said, "Mrs. Oswald, what makes you want to blame the Secret Service? The time to have blamed the Secret Service was when it happened."

And I said, "I did blame the Secret Service when it happened. I made a report in Fort Worth, Tex., about that."

And I said, "The question was asked me." I answered him truthfully, "Yes, that the Secret Service have kept me from my daughter-in-law."

So he said, "Well, has it occurred to you that your daughter-in-law doesn't want to see you?"

And I said, "She made the statement in Washington, the first time I have known of that, from my daughter-in-law's lips, that she did not want to see me."

And Mr. Sorrels never told me.

Now, again, I don't believe this Secret Service man had the right to quiz me like he did. I was very upset. Mr. Doyle can verify the fact. When he came to the hotel I was on the verge of tears, because of this quizzing.

The point I want to make--he said, "Isn't it true that you have had complete protection by the Secret Service for the last 2 weeks, ever since the testifying began?"

I said, "No, sir; it is not true."

Now, where does he get the idea I have been under surveillance for 2 weeks? I don't understand these things.

Mr. DOYLE. Tell them about the defection.

Mrs. OSWALD. Would you please consider that I can't go any more today? It is 4 o'clock. The defection is a very long and important story that leads into a story where a recruiting officer at age 16 tried to get Lee to enlist into the Marines. And it is a very important story, gentlemen. And I think you would be quite interested in it for the record.

The CHAIRMAN. We will recess now until tomorrow. Mr. Doyle, I understand in the morning you have a court appearance that you must make. But you will be available at 2 o'clock.

Mr. DOYLE. Two o'clock. Your Honor.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well, we will recess now until 2 o'clock tomorrow afternoon.

Mrs. OSWALD. I appreciate it, because I was up until late last night trying to get the papers for you. It wouldn't do you any good if I break down.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, we don't want to overdo the situation in any way. So we will adjourn until 2 o'clock tomorrow.

(Whereupon, at 4 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)

_Tuesday, February 11, 1964_

TESTIMONY OF MRS. MARGUERITE OSWALD RESUMED

The President's Commission met at 2 p.m. on February 11, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.

Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Representative Hale Boggs, Representative Gerald R. Ford, and Allen W. Dulles, members.

Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel; John Doyle, attorney for Mrs. Marguerite Oswald; and Leon Jaworski, special counsel to the attorney general of Texas.

The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will come to order. Are we ready to proceed?

Mr. DOYLE. If it please Your Honor----

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Doyle.

Mr. DOYLE. Mr. Mark Lane is present as counsel, as I understand, for Mrs. Oswald. Although I have not talked to Mrs. Oswald about the matter, as I understand it Mr. Lane represented her from time to time, in one capacity or another in the past.

I do not know the particulars. Mrs. Oswald or Mr. Lane could better advise the Commission about the point.

Of course my designation was at the request of Mrs. Oswald to act in her behalf, since there was no counsel of her choice present at the time.

The CHAIRMAN. True.

Mr. DOYLE. In view of the appearance--I wonder if it might be straightened out--if Mr. Lane wishes to enter his appearance in the matter.

Of course I would immediately respectfully move for leave to withdraw.

The CHAIRMAN. Mrs. Oswald, what is your wish?

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, Mr. Lane is just here for a few hours, Chief Justice Warren. He flew in just for a few hours. He is catching a 4 o'clock plane out. And I thought--he had asked permission just to sit in for these few hours.

The CHAIRMAN. Either he represents you or he does not.

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, he does not represent me.

The CHAIRMAN. Then we will excuse Mr. Lane.

Mr. LANE. Mr. Chief Justice----

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Lane, now really--either you are here as the attorney for Mrs. Oswald or you are not entitled to be in this room--one of the two.

Mr. LANE. May I ask, Mr. Chief Justice, if it is permissible for me to function at Mrs. Oswald's request as her counsel together with Mr. Doyle, just for an hour or two, and then be excused.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Doyle has said that if you are her attorney he is not. And Mr. Doyle is doing this as a public service. We must respect his views in the matter.

Mr. LANE. I see. I did explain to Mr. Doyle before I came into the room exactly what the situation was. It was not until now that I understood his response.

Under those circumstances, I wonder if I might confer with Mrs. Oswald for just a minute or two.

The CHAIRMAN. If Mrs. Oswald wants to, she may.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. All right.

You may take another room, if you wish.

(Brief recess.)

The CHAIRMAN. All right.

Mr. LANE. Under the circumstances, since I do have to leave and I will not be able to be here for the rest of the afternoon's session and for subsequent sessions--under those circumstances, since Mr. Doyle will not remain on jointly with me, I will at this time withdraw.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well. Now, we will continue. Mr. Rankin, you may continue with the hearing.

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, could you tell us first now, while you are fresh, about this conspiracy that you said that you knew about?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes--If you would like me to do it now. I was going to lead up to all the fundamentals, to my way of thinking. I have no proof, because naturally if I did I don't think we would be here.

But I feel like there is a lot of speculation about everything.

My way of thinking is because the involvement of myself at Six Flags and the way I was treated, as I have already put into the testimony, and as I stated yesterday, also, that I was supposed to be under protective custody, and I was not.

I wonder why I didn't have protective custody, why I am not important enough, with papers out of the vault, and appearing before the hearing, that Mr. Sorrels, head of the Secret Service, didn't give me protective custody, even though you, yourself, Mr. Rankin, required it.

These are the things I have to face that to me are very unusual.

Mr. RANKIN. Well, it is such a serious charge to say that these two Secret Service men and your son and--I didn't understand for sure whether you included anyone else in your charge--were involved in a conspiracy to assassinate the President.

Mrs. OSWALD. No, no----

Mr. RANKIN. And your daughter-in-law.

Mrs. OSWALD. That is not my statement. I said I thought that we have a plot in our own government, and that there is a high official involved. And I am thinking that probably these Secret Service men are part of it.

Now, I didn't say in a conspiracy--make it as strong as you did. I have made it strong. But I am under the impression that possibly there is a leak in our own government. And when I come to these papers--and I specifically yesterday morning asked about Senator Tower.

Now, I am not throwing any reflection on Senator Tower. But he made the statement in the paper that he had a letter from the State Department saying that Lee had renounced his citizenship.

Now, you see, I don't have that paper with me. I had it yesterday morning. But his whole quotes--the dates and everything of the letter that he was supposed to have had is not in correspondence with the dates that I have from the State Department papers which you gentlemen know that I have all these papers from the State Department. Nothing corresponds with what I have.

So I wanted to know and see this letter that Senator Tower claims he has. It could have been that it was an error in newspaper reporting, and I will say in slang he could have shot his mouth off, because he said he would not help the boy when the boy wrote him the letter.

Representative FORD. Mr. Chairman, I saw the letter that Lee Harvey Oswald wrote to Senator Tower the day after the assassination. And I believe I also saw the response that he received from one of the agencies of the Federal Government. Senator Tower had the original of the letter. If it is not in our Commission files, I am sure it is available for the Commission files--along with, whatever exchange of correspondence he had with the Department of State concerning the matter.

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, now, what is of utmost interest to me in this particular case is if there is such a letter, and it does not correspond with anything that I have, I would like to know who in the State Department wrote this particular letter.

Representative FORD. I would not know who in the State Department wrote the letter. I would suspect it was the Assistant Secretary for Congressional Affairs, Fred Dutton, I believe.

Mrs. OSWALD. I am not suspecting, because I have many, many letters from the State Department, and I also have something else that I will present that maybe would be another party involved. There is very conflicting testimony.

You must realize that I went to Washington in 1961 and was in conference with three officials. And this was another Administration.

Now, I don't know much about politics, gentlemen. But I do know a little from the news.

Lee's defection was in one Administration--right?

And now this is of another Administration, the Kennedy Administration. And there could be a leak in the State Department. That is not impossible.

So I have two instances that I, myself, am not satisfied.

Mr. RANKIN. A leak is so much different from a conspiracy to assassinate the President, though.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, but this leak this could be the party involved in the assassination of the President--the high officials I am speaking of. I cannot pin it down to one sentence, gentlemen.

Mr. RANKIN. Well, you named the Secret Service men, two of them.

Mrs. OSWALD. That is right.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, do you have anything that shows you that either of those men were involved in the conspiracy to assassinate President Kennedy?

Mrs. OSWALD. I will answer that emphatically no. What I have stated is the way they treated me, sir. I elaborated the way these two men treated me--correct? I did that testimony yesterday.

So I have to consider these two men. I will put it that way.

Mr. RANKIN. Let's consider Marina Oswald. Do you have anything that will show that she was involved in any conspiracy to assassinate President Kennedy?

Mrs. OSWALD. I feel like Marina is involved and also Mrs. Paine, yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, what do you have in that regard?

Mrs. OSWALD. All right--because Marina--now this I have said to Mr. Jack Lengett, who is a New York Times newspaperman a long time ago. And I was ashamed to say it to anyone else. And I didn't tell it to him for a long time.

The story yesterday at the Six Flags, when I said to you Marina shrugged me off, and the second time she shrugged me off. The second time she said--and I would not say it now unless I had told Mr. Jack Lengett--she said, "You no have job."

In other words, since Marina was being offered a home, then you go to--"You don't have job."

Before she was satisfied to take $863 and live with me. I was giving her my money and giving her my love. And then, "You no have job."

I am trying to show you the disposition of my daughter-in-law. I love her. But I am trying to show you that there is two sides. I told you how she hit the little girl with the comb. "Mama, I no need you, Mama. You don't have job."

Mr. RANKIN. Why does that show she was involved in any conspiracy?

Mrs. OSWALD. Because I am going to try to show there is discrepancies all along. She was not supposed to speak English.

I testified that I, myself, questioned her for an FBI agent. I acted as interpreter. So Marina did know English and understand English. So that is a question.

Mr. RANKIN. I thought you said she spoke broken English.

Mrs. OSWALD. Broken English. But she is not supposed to speak English at all, until now that she has learned English. That has been publicized over and over.

Mr. RANKIN. And you think she could understand English fluently?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I also told you when she lived with me that month in my home, how we conversed and talked. And yet the impression is that Marina came here and didn't speak English at all.

Mr. RANKIN. How does that show she conspired to assassinate the President?

Mrs. OSWALD. Because Marina now is not happy. Marina was very happy, I explained to you, the month she was with me in the beginning that they had rented this house. And then Marina made friends, very, very many friends. And Marina became discontented with Lee. Lee could not give her the things she wanted, what he told her about America. And Marina now has become discontented with me. I don't mean now--I mean at the Six Flags.

Mama always had a big heart. I quit a job to help these children, and that is perfectly all right. That is my nature.

But then, when she has somebody else, you are pushed aside.

I am trying to show this. And, as I go along--I cannot help but face this, gentlemen, it is a fact. I cannot help but face these things.

So I am under the impression--and this is speculation, like anything else--circumstantial evidence, let's say.

I am just a layman. That is what you have against my son. Nobody saw him with a rifle shoot the President. So you have mostly circumstantial evidence.

I have to think of all these things, who might be involved in this.

The Secret Service men, surely you will admit, did not guard our President properly.

Now, that was also stated in the newspaper by, I think it is, Secret Service Judge Baughman--am I saying that right? He is the one that--how Lee got out of the building, and why the President--there are many, many people that wonder. So I, too, am wondering.

So I say that President Kennedy was improperly guarded. And I am not the only one that says that, sir. So I have to consider that. I have to consider the way I, myself, was treated at Six Flags for the three days.

When I came here today--I have these notes, something very important about that particular incident at Six Flags, to back up my story with a witness. You don't have to take my word for it.

Mr. RANKIN. What else is there now in regard to Marina that caused you to think she conspired to kill President Kennedy?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes--because everything is laid out in Mrs. Paine's home and Marina's home. The gun was in the garage.

Mr. RANKIN. Well, that doesn't make Marina do it, does it?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, but Marina told the police that the gun was there the night before. She saw the gun in the garage the night before. She didn't see Lee take it that morning. But she made a statement that she saw the gun the night before.

The pictures of Lee with the rifle came from that home. If Lee is going to assassinate the President or anybody else, is he going to have photographs laying all around with the gun? No, sir.

And there is too much evidence pointing to the assassination and my son being the guilty one in this particular house.

All through the testimony, sir, everything has come from this particular house. And so I am a thinking person, I have to think.

Mr. RANKIN. Why does that show that Marina had anything to do with the conspiracy?

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, we are speculating, let's say. Marina is not happy. Lee can't give her any money and things. And she has made friends with these Russian folks that have cars and homes. And they are not happy because this Russian girl doesn't have anything. They are not happy about that.

And I am trying to show the disposition of the girl.

I love my daughter-in-law even now. Believe me, it is a sore spot to have to say this. But I have to face these facts of what I know.

Mr. RANKIN. You realize it is a very serious charge.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. And it is also a serious charge that my son is the assassin of President Kennedy.

You see, we have two sides here. It is a very serious charge, because no one saw him shoot the President. And yet this is an international affair. And the conclusion has come to the conclusion that Lee Harvey Oswald has shot President Kennedy, and he alone. Lee Harvey Oswald, or Mr. J. Lee Rankin, or anyone in this room could not have been in that many places in 29 minutes time. It is utterly impossible.

And this has been gone over by hundreds of people. There are investigations. I have 1,500 letters, sir--not just letters of sympathy--people that are investigating this. And I don't read all thoroughly, and I am a layman. But he step by step has been taken, from what the reports said--that he was on the sixth floor, and then they saw him in the cafeteria drinking a Coca Cola, and the President came. Then he had to leave the building. He had so many blocks to walk before he caught a bus. He had to board the bus, he had to pay his fare, he had to get out of the bus, then he walked a few blocks, then he caught a taxicab, paid the taxi man, then he walked a few blocks, went to his home and got a coat. Then he walked a few more blocks and shot the policeman. Then he walked a few more blocks and he was in the theater.

In 29 minutes time it cannot be done.

So I am convinced my son, and my son alone, if he is involved--I am a human being, and I say my son could have shot the President, and he could have been involved. I am not the type mother to think that he is perfect and he could not do it. But I say he did not do it alone--if he did it. Because it is utterly impossible.

And I do not believe my son did it.

I think my son was framed because, gentlemen--would his rifle be in the sixth floor window of the depository--unless you want to say my son was completely out of his mind. And yet there has been no statement to that effect. Wade has publicly said on the television when it happened that he is sane, he is well reasoned, he knows what he did. And Lee never did break, with his black eyes. He kept saying he was innocent. And yet in 12 hours time he was proven guilty. That doesn't make sense to me, an ordinary layman. So I have to consider who is involved.

Now, I am telling you that this girl was not happy with her situation. She had turned against me twice.

You, yourself, yesterday said that she testified that I told her to tear up the picture. God give me the grace--I did no such thing. My testimony is true.

So now she has lied there, I have found out.

And every evidence of any importance has come from this house. I have to face that.

Mr. RANKIN. What else do you have that shows that she had any part in the conspiracy to assassinate the President?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I am under the impression that probably she--I think Lee is an agent. I have always thought that, and I have as much circumstantial evidence that Lee is an agent, that the Dallas police has that he is a murderer, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. What do you base that on?

Mrs. OSWALD. Well. I am going to tell my story. I have it all there. That is what I base it on.

Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us in summary?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, I don't think I want to tell it to you that way, because I cannot, almost.

Mr. RANKIN. That is a very serious charge, that he was an agent, too.

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, fine. So all right.

If I feel that way, sir, don't I have the right, the American way, to speak up and to tell you what I feel? Isn't that my privilege?

Mr. RANKIN. Yes. But can't you tell us what you base it on?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I will, as I go along, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Is that the only way you can tell it?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't see how I can say to you I know he is an agent, and I have papers. I want to tell the whole story. I still have more papers. I have documents that I know you do not have, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Have you told us all that you know that would bear on your claim that Marina Oswald was----

Mrs. OSWALD. Had a part in it.

Mr. RANKIN. Had a part in it or conspired to assassinate the President?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir--I cannot prove it. And I cannot prove Lee is an agent. I cannot prove these things.

But I have facts that may lead up to them. I cannot prove it, because if I did we would not be having this Commission, sir. I could say who shot President Kennedy.

Mr. RANKIN. So in both cases of the agent--Lee being an agent, your son, and Marina Oswald and the Secret Service agents or anybody else conspiring with him for the assassination of President Kennedy, that is just suspicions. You cannot prove it--is that right?

Mrs. OSWALD. I would not use the word suspicion, because I am not the type person to be suspicious and imagine things.

You may think so, because I am a woman. And this is my son. But my children were never tied to my apron strings.

And I can prove to you, in his defection in 1959, I made the statement that Lee, as an individual, had the right to think and do what he wanted to. They even said he was a Communist. If that is what he studied, and that is what he wanted to do, I accepted that, because that was his privilege as an individual. And that is public in 1959, my statement, which shows that I am not the sobbing mother kind because he has gone to Russia, and cry about it. I acknowledge that.

I have acknowledged that if the children, like Lee, went to Dallas, as I testified that yesterday, and didn't tell me he was going to Dallas--I don't grieve and lose my sleep over that. I have accepted that fact, because when Lee and Marina got ready to come to me that would be fine. In the meantime, I still have to live.

Mr. RANKIN. Are you telling the Commission that your son was part of a conspiracy to assassinate the President?

Mrs. OSWALD. I am saying that I realize that my son could possibly be part--yes--I realize he is a human being and he could possibly be in this, yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Are you saying he was?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, I do not know. I am saying possibly he is involved.

Mr. RANKIN. And you are saying possibly Marina was involved?

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, exactly what I am trying to say. If I had proof, sir, I would give the proof in an affidavit and this case would be closed, like Mr. Wade said.

But I have as much right to my way of thinking as Mr. Wade has.

Mr. RANKIN. You are saying that possibly the Secret Service agents were involved, too? You don't have any proof of that?

Mrs. OSWALD. That is exactly what I have been trying to say. I have told you how I was treated, which has given me cause for this particular way of thinking--because I believe that my son is innocent. And I think that is the purpose of this Commission, is to hear all witnesses and arrive at a conclusion. Am I not right, gentlemen?

So this is my way of thinking. So grant me my way of thinking. If I am wrong, fine. But you may learn something.

Mr. RANKIN. What about the high official now. Can you tell us who that was?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. I wish I did know. I have my own idea about that. I would rather not--because it is a high official--I would rather not give a name.

But I have my own very strong suspicions as to the official who he might be.

Mr. RANKIN. We would appreciate your telling us within this group what you think.

Mrs. OSWALD. Fine--and I expect to, Mr. Rankin. I am a person that is very outspoken, as you know by now, and I will certainly do that.

But will you grant me the privilege first of finding out the name of the man in the State Department that wrote the letter to Senator Tower, because it is an incorrect--it is incorrect--the whole testimony is incorrect.

Mr. RANKIN. We will get that correspondence for you.

Mrs. OSWALD. All right. I was going to go into something else, but while we are here, I will continue this.

And this, to me, will be in this line. And I think very important to you gentlemen. And you do not have a copy of what I am going to show you. I am the only person that has this copy.

I am sorry to take time, but these were not copied, sir. We sealed them up, and we were going to have them copied this afternoon. But I can get to this particular one. This is the defection. I have much more testimony than this. I have testimony, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you think that you can tell us the name of the high official you spoke about?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I think so. And I am going to tell you. But please do not ask me at this particular moment. I do not think this is the proper time for me to--it is just--I have no proof. Understand? As I said, it is my right to think and my analysis of the papers I have. I have papers where I can come to a conclusion, just like you gentlemen are going to have papers and witnesses and come to a conclusion.

Now, this particular instance----

Mr. DULLES. I wonder if we could not possibly explore that agent matter. I am very much interested in that. I cannot be here tomorrow. We laid all the groundwork for that.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Dulles would like to know her reasons for believing that he was an agent.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I have two very long stories.

Mr. DULLES. I have to be absent, unfortunately, tomorrow, so I would like very much to have it.

Mr. RANKIN. If you could go into that question, Mrs. Oswald, because Mr. Dulles is not going to be here tomorrow.

Mrs. OSWALD. We have everything just so, and yet when we come here we don't have it. The International Rescue Committee is what I am looking for.

I have also the original application from the Albert Schweitzer coming that you gentlemen do not have.

The CHAIRMAN. Let's stay on one thing, please.

Mrs. OSWALD. All right. I am a little excited now, because I meant to go story by story.

Gentlemen, I have at least four more stories to tell--two I don't think there are some parts you possibly can know about.

Mr. RANKIN. Well, if you could tell about why you think your son was an agent, it will help to get that taken care of this afternoon while Mr. Dulles can be with us. That is why I asked you that.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. We have a special file. You see, gentlemen, all morning long I was in the backroom and we were copying things. We had everything just so. So now I don't know what condition they are in. Mr. Doyle and I worked on the papers again last night and we had them just so. And then when they were copied, evidently they were mixed up again.

Mr. RANKIN. We tried to have you present so that would not happen. Mrs. Oswald. I guess you didn't accomplish that.

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, they did take it into the other room, and we saw that they took it.

Well, I can be telling the story about it.

It is the International Rescue Committee, and a telegram.

I received a letter from Lee--this is going to be real short, Chief Justice Warren. It is going to continue this one story. And then I will go into the defection--is that right--because this will continue that.

A letter from Lee asking me to go to the Red Cross in Vernon--I was on a case there--and asking me to show the letter to the lady at the Red Cross. And this is from Moscow. This is the letter from Moscow. And telling her that all exit visas and everything had been documented and he is ready to come home, but he needs help financially to come home.

Evidently you have that information. That I know, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Mrs. OSWALD. So when I entered the Vernon Red Cross--now, this came with Lee's letter, Chief Justice Warren--the letter you have there direct from Moscow. That is why I have it, sir--because it was in Lee's letter asking me to go to the Red Cross in Vernon. So I have the original from Moscow.

I told the young lady, showed her the letter and showed her the paper. And I said, "Would you find out, please, the address of the International Rescue Committee? My son is in Russia and asked me to contact you."

She said, "What is your son doing in Russia?"

I said, "I don't know."

"You are his mother and you don't know what he is doing in Russia?"

I said, "Young lady, I said I do not know what he is doing in Russia."

"Well, I think anybody goes to Russia doesn't need any help to get back, they should stay over there."

So I said, "I am not interested in your personal opinion. I need help. Would you please contact, give me the address of the International Rescue Committee so I can continue to try to get money for my son to come home?"

She did not know of any address for the International Rescue Committee.

I asked her if she had a private line to Wichita Falls, which was approximately 40 miles away, which would be the next big city. She called Wichita Falls, and they did not know the address of the international committee.

So I called Robert and told Robert what I had and asked him to try to find out the address of the International Rescue Committee. However, he gave me no satisfaction.

Now, I sent a telegram--and you know this part of it--to the State Department, asking--I told them I was in a small town, Vernon, Tex., and I had received a letter from Lee asking me to get the address and help from the International Rescue Committee. But being a small town I had no success--could they help me out?

So they sent a telegram back with the address of the International Rescue Committee. That you have.

And this is Lee's letter--that goes with the other part.

Now, this young lady was very, very regalish. She didn't want to help anybody going to Russia. So when I received the telegram from the State Department, it was on a Saturday. I called her that morning. I was delayed 4 or 5 days. And to me it was very important, since my son and daughter-in-law had all documents finished with to get the money to come home, because I wanted that baby to be born here.

So I called her at her home and told her that I had the address from the State Department of the International Rescue Committee, and would she be so kind enough as to come to the office and write the letter for me.

She said, "Well, Mrs. Oswald, I don't have a key."

This is on a Saturday morning and she is in the courthouse.

I said, "Do you mean to tell me you are in charge of the Red Cross and you don't have a key?"

"No, I don't."

"Well, young lady, you have delayed me 4 days, and I don't like your attitude. I am going to ask you especially to make a point to come to the office and get this in the mail for me. It is very important."

So, reluctantly, after much persuasion, she came.

So she wrote the letter to the International Rescue Committee, and handed it to me, and I mailed that letter--I mailed the letter.

This is dated January 22, 1962.

So she called me--her name--Mrs. Harwell. She is the only woman in the Red Cross office in Vernon, Tex.

She called me and told me she had received word from the International Rescue Committee. She read me this letter. So I said to Mrs. Harwell, "Do you mind if I take the letter, because I am very forgetful?"

So she took a scissors, gentlemen, and she cut this part out, which was her title and her address--it was addressed to her. This lady wanted no part of anybody in Russia--understand? So she cut this out.

But on the back page was the name. But that is why this space is here--she cut it out.

Now, the letter reads: "Since we had a call from the State Department on Mr. Oswald's case, your communication of January 14th did not come as a surprise."

So this young lady has followed up with a letter of her own to the International Rescue Committee.

"Since we have had a call from the State Department, your letter does not come as a surprise."

I mailed the first letter, and it was just--so she followed up her feelings about a boy in Russia.

Now, why does the State Department dicker with me--that is not the word--and then see fit to put in a personal call to the International Rescue Committee?

I would like to know who from the State Department called the International Rescue Committee.

There is my information there that I requested. Why is a call necessary?

Mr. RANKIN. You think that shows there was a conspiracy?

Mrs. OSWALD. I am wondering and questioning why a call is necessary, a call, when they had contacted--and I am showing you what I have here. I don't see any necessity of the State Department to call the International Rescue Committee.

And, gentlemen, you have a copy of this--Lee will not be helped.

I would like to know who called the International Rescue Committee from the State Department--yes, sir, I would.

Mr. RANKIN. Yes, but you don't think that shows there is a conspiracy?

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, no--now. Mr. Rankin, don't pin me down everything I say to the word conspiracy. I am trying to analyze a whole condensed program of things that are not correct. I am telling you about this. It could be just a simple thing, that he called. But I would like to know who called when it wasn't necessary to make a call, and Lee was not going to get the money. Read the letter.

Mr. RANKIN. The reason I ask you about the conspiracy is because that is such a serious charge. And, as you say, if you could prove that, that would decide everything around here.

Mrs. OSWALD. That is right. And I am going to see if I cannot show you these things.

Mr. RANKIN. If you are speculating, which you have a right to do, that is something different.

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, I have explained that I am speculating, that I have all these documents, that some of them don't make sense. That is what I am trying to tell you. I mentioned that before.

Mr. RANKIN. You are not trying to say to the Commission that you have the proof that there was a conspiracy?

Mrs. OSWALD. I have emphatically stated that I do not have the proof, because if I had the proof I would have an affidavit and give you gentlemen the proof. I made that clear two or three times. I wish I did have the proof, sir.

I think I said yesterday--it doesn't surprise me that there may be someone in our State Department or some official who would have part in this. He is a human being just like we are. He may have a title, but that doesn't make him a man back of the title.

Mr. DULLES. What is this conspiracy now, Mr. Rankin? Is this the conspiracy to do away with the President, or is this a different conspiracy?

Mr. RANKIN. The conspiracy I was asking about was the conspiracy, she said, about the assassination of President Kennedy.

And she said that it involved the two Secret Service agents and her daughter-in-law and her son. That is the one I was asking about.

The CHAIRMAN. And Mrs. Paine.

Mrs. OSWALD. And Mrs. Paine. I feel like the facts have come from this particular source.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, as I understand she says now that she is speculating as to that being a possibility.

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, now, Mr. Rankin. I have not changed my testimony, if you are implying that. I may not have put it in a position you understood. Because as I say, I certainly did not mean to imply that I had proof, because if I had proof I would not be sitting here taking all my energy and trying to show you this little by little. I would have had an affidavit and show you the proof. So if you want to call it speculation, call it speculation. I don't care what you call it. But I am not satisfied in my mind that things are according to Hoyle. And I believe that my son is innocent. And I also realize that my son could be involved. But I have no way of knowing these things unless I analyze the papers that I have, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. The Commission would like to know what you base your assumption that your son was an agent on. Could you help us?

Mrs. OSWALD. Would you like me to go into this story--I will start with my son's life from the very beginning.

Mr. RANKIN. Can't we get down to----

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, we cannot. I am sorry. This is my life. I cannot survive in this world unless I know I have my American way of life and can start from the very beginning. I have to work into this. I cannot answer these questions like in a court, yes or no. And I will not answer yes or no. I want to tell you the story. And that is the only way you can get a true picture. I am the accused mother of this man, and I have family and grandchildren, and Marina, my daughter-in-law. And I am going to do everything I can to try and prove he is innocent.

Mr. RANKIN. Well, now, Mrs. Oswald, you are not claiming before this Commission that there was anything back at the beginning, at the early childhood of your son, in which you thought he was an agent?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir--at age 16.

Mr. RANKIN. Well, why don't you start with age 16, then.

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, aren't you gentlemen--I have a letter from you, Mr. Rankin. Aren't you gentlemen interested in my son's life from the very beginning? I think you should, because it has been exploited in all the magazines and papers. And this is not my son is what I am trying to say. He is not a perfect boy, and I am not a perfect woman. But I can show a different side of Lee Harvey Oswald, which I hope to do to this Commission.

Mr. RANKIN. Well, I plan to ask you about his early life and these other parts. But I thought it would be helpful if you would be willing to do it to tell the Commission, while Mr. Dulles is here, what you base this claim upon that your son was an agent of the Government.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, and I would be happy to do it.

Mr. RANKIN. If you have to go to when he was 16 years old as the first point, that will be fine.

But if you could cover that--then we will go on to the other things.

Mrs. OSWALD. All right. I have your word that you will let me have my life story from early childhood and Lee's life story from early childhood.

Now, I will start from age 16. Is that satisfactory?

Mr. RANKIN. Would you do that?

Mrs. OSWALD. Thank you very much. We were in New Orleans, La., at this particular time. On or about October 5th or 7th--and you have this, gentlemen, as my proof, that I am telling a true story, and I will have witnesses that will be called--is a letter----

Mr. DULLES. What year, Mrs. Oswald?

Mrs. OSWALD. I said 1959--I am sorry. 1955. No, wait now. 1956--when we left New Orleans is 1956. Am I not correct? I am a little excited now, because of what happened before. The note----

Mr. RANKIN. He joined the Marines in 1956. Does that help you?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. Wait. We have a note from the Beauregard School by me that I was going to San Diego. Do you have the note?

Mr. RANKIN. We do.

Mrs. OSWALD. May I see that note, please? And that is approximately October 5th or the 7th, I think it is, 1955.

Mr. DULLES. I think you moved to Fort Worth with Lee in September 1956.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. So it was in '55. I think that is correct. Let me see.

Mr. RANKIN. We are handing you this book that we received from the State of Louisiana that is Commission's Exhibit No. 365, and turn to page 11 and you will find the note you referred to.

Mrs. OSWALD. To the school. All right, gentlemen, this is a surprise. This is my note, isn't, to the school, that I am moving to San Diego. And it has been blasted in all the papers how I moved around, and I was going to San Diego.

Gentlemen, I had nothing to do with this note, nothing whatsoever.

Lee, my son, wrote the note--on or about October 5th or the 7th--October 7th. And now comes the story why he wrote the note.

If you will see here, this is Lee's handwriting, to the letters.

Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence that note on page 11.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 199, and received in evidence.)

Mrs. OSWALD. I had nothing to do with this note.

Now, I am working at Kreeger's Specialty Shop, 800 and something Canal Street in New Orleans, La. I received a telephone call from the principal of the Beauregard School saying. "Mrs. Oswald, I understand you are going to leave town, and we are awfully sorry to lose Lee."

Of course now, gentlemen, I am working and this is news to me.

So I said--I kind of went along with it a little bit.

Lee came into this shop later on that day. Miss Lillian New, I think her name was, who is manager of Kreeger's Shop, and has been for years--she will witness this.

He said, "Mother, I have quit school."

Mr. RANKIN. You say when the school authorities asked you, you sort of went along with it. What do you mean by that?

Mrs. OSWALD. When the lady called me and said that, "I understand you are leaving town, Mrs. Oswald."

Mr. RANKIN. What did you say?

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, because there was a switchboard, and my job was in jeopardy, I don't know the exact words, but I said--I had to be kind of vague about it and not discuss it. I knew I wasn't leaving town, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you tell her you were not?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, I don't think I told her. But I had to be very--I would lose my job if they thought I was leaving town. It was news to me.

So Lee that afternoon, from school, came into Kreeger's Specialty Shop where I was working and said, "Mother. I want to join the Marines, and I have quit school."

Now, Mr. Kreeger--and he may be leaving--Mr. Frank Kreeger who is owner of Kreeger's Specialty Shop, and all of the personnel there--this is a very small shop, and Miss Lillian, who was manager, knows of this. I became very excited and I started to cry. And they let me go home with Lee.

So Lee was determined at age 16--his birthday was going to be October 18th, right--and this was October 7th--was going to join the Marines. So what Lee wanted me to do was falsify his birth certificate, which I would not do. And he kept after me, like a boy.

Now, this is a normal boy, wanting to join the Marines.

"I don't see why you don't just put that I am 17 years old."

I said, "Lee. We cannot do that."

He said, "Everybody else"--

I said, "No, I am not going to do it."

For 2 or 3 days Lee and I bickered back and forth about me falsifying his age.

So I have a very good friend, Mr. Clem Sehrt, who is an attorney in New Orleans, La. I called him and told him I had a personal problem. I had not seen Mr. Sehrt since early childhood. I knew the family. That Lee was not of age and he wanted to join the Marines. And he quit the school and told them we were going out of town.

He said, "Marguerite, I cannot advise you. It would be unethical. But a lot of boys join the service at age 16."

So he could not advise me.

My sister, Mrs. Charles Murret, 757 French Street, knows of the complete story. And so does my brother-in-law, Mr. Charles Murret, who also said, "Let him join, let him go. If he wants to go so badly, let him join the Marines."

I, at that time, was living at 126 Exchange Place, which is the Vieux Carre section of the French Quarter of New Orleans.

And, by the way, the papers said we lived over a saloon at that particular address.

Gentlemen, if you have this information, that is just the French part of town. It looks like the devil. Of course I didn't have a fabulous apartment. But very wealthy people and very fine citizens live in that part of town, and there are hotels and saloons, and courtyards where the homes are.

So I was very upset.

There was a colonel on the street that I stopped--I didn't know him--I said, "Sir, I would like to talk with you." I told him about the boy wanting to join the Marines and I didn't know what to do. I was frantic. And he was insistent that I let him join the Marines at age 16.

So he advised me, "Well, if he doesn't want to go to school, let him join the Marines. It is done all the time."

Now, I was not too happy about this situation.

Now, a recruiting officer from the Marine Reserve in New Orleans, La., was in my home the next day when I arrived from work, with Lee, in uniform, in the home when I got into the home. He introduced me to him and he said, "Mrs. Oswald"--he didn't tell me what to do. He was very vague about the thing.

I said, "No, Lee is too young, age 16, to join the Marines. They are liable to send him overseas."

He said, "There is less delinquency in Japan and those places than we have here."

He saw nothing wrong with it.

What he was doing was telling me to falsify his birth certificate, but not in plain words. He was telling me it would be all right for the boy to join the Marines. He came to my home personally.

So I went to an attorney with Lee, because--here is the thing.

Lee's birth record is in New Orleans. And I knew that the Marine Corps could easily check on this child, age 16--his birth record. So in order to have a happy situation, so I could work, and to see Lee, I went to an attorney and paid $5 and said that I lost Lee's birth certificate, and kind of motioned to the attorney. I knew it would not stand up. I bought Lee a duffle bag and everything, and Lee went--we told him goodby, and Lee was going to join the Marines.

I had to accept that, gentlemen. There was no other way I could do, but accept the fact to let him go.

Mr. RANKIN. Who was that attorney?

Mrs. OSWALD. Mr. Clem Sehrt.

Mr. BOGGS. What did Mr. Sehrt allegedly tell you?

Mrs. OSWALD. Pardon?

Mr. BOGGS. What did Mr. Sehrt tell you?

Mrs. OSWALD. Mr. Sehrt is a family friend.

Mr. BOGGS. I know Mr. Sehrt very well.

Mrs. OSWALD. He said according to attorney ethics that he would not be able to advise me. Before you came in, sir, I had stated that.

Now, when I get interrupted, I lose--this is a big thing for me. I am not making excuses. But, gentlemen, it is awfully hard to do this.

So Lee came home. And he said the captain said that he was too young.

Now, I don't question much. I don't know whether Lee changed his mind, or they sent Lee home. I do not know. I do not question that.

All right.

Lee, at age 16, read Robert's Marine manual back and forth. He knew it by heart. Robert had just gotten out of the Marines, and his manual was home. And Lee started to read communistic material along with that.

Mr. RANKIN. What communistic material did he read?

Mrs. OSWALD. It was a small book that he had gotten out of the library. And I knew he was reading it, Mr. Rankin.

Mr. RANKIN. Was it in Marxism, or what was it about?

Mrs. OSWALD. No--if you are saying the title is Marxism--no, sir, the title was not.

Mr. RANKIN. Was it about communism?

Mrs. OSWALD. It was more about communism. I knew he was reading it. But if we have this material in the public libraries, then certainly it is all right for us to read. And I think we should know about these things, and all of our scholars and educators and high school boys read subversive material, which we call subversive material. So I, as a mother, would not take the book away from him. That is fine. Lee is a reader. I have said from early childhood he liked histories and maps.

So that is fine.

What I am saying now--we are getting to this agent part.

He is with this recruiting officer and he is studying the Marine manual--he knew it back and forth. In fact, he would take the book and have me question some of the things. And he was reading communism.

Lee lived for the time that he would become 17 years old to join the Marines--that whole year.

Mr. RANKIN. What did he do during that time?

Mrs. OSWALD. Pardon?

Mr. RANKIN. What did he do during that year?

Mrs. OSWALD. What did he do during that year? He was working for--as a messenger for Tujaque and Son.

Mr. RANKIN. He had quite a few jobs, did he not?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I can explain that to you.

His first job was Tujaque and Son, who was steamship people, and he was a messenger. And then he had a lot of friends.

Now, they say Lee didn't have friends. There were boys of his age--while he was working he had an opportunity to make friends, coming to my home. And one of the young men knew of a better paying job, where they had coffee breaks and everything, so Lee took that job, which was with a dental laboratory--if you have that information, sir.

And I think that is the only two jobs--no, Lee worked after school for Dolly Shoe Co. I was working there, in charge of the hosiery department, and Lee worked on Friday afternoon and Saturday as a shoe salesman.

That was his first job--while he went to school he worked there.

And then when he left school, as I told you, at age 16--the first job was Tujaque and Company, steamship, and then the dental laboratory. And that is the only jobs he had in New Orleans.

Mr. RANKIN. Were there not times he didn't have any job during that year?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir--because when we left New Orleans, Lee left this dental laboratory job--that is correct.

So I moved back to Fort Worth, Tex., because Robert did not want to live in New Orleans. Robert was raised in Texas, and has his girl friends and all his friends in Texas. So when Robert got out of the Marines, he wanted to live in Texas. So I know that Lee wants to join the Marines at age 17, so in the month of July 1956--and, gentlemen, I have always been broke, and I mean broke. About a week before rent time, we had it pretty hard in order to have that rent. Yet I take my furniture and ship it to New Orleans so Lee could be with his brother and we could be with the family--thinking maybe with Robert he would not join the Marines at age 17 and finish his schooling.

When Lee became age 17, October 18th, he joined the Marines.

The reason why he didn't go into the Marines until October 24th was the recruiting officer at the Marines could not understand his birth certificate, because his father had died 2 months before. So I had to send for an affidavit, even though I had the death notice from the paper and everything, and they could have--they could not understand that about that two months. I had to send to New Orleans for an affidavit of his father's death.

And so then Lee joined the Marines on October 24th.

From the 18th to the 24th every day Lee was leaving. We even laughed about it. Because he would leave in the morning and come home in the evening. And it was because he was born 2 months before his father--so he did join the Marines at age 18.

Now--that, Mr. Dulles, is the part you wanted to know. But, before, that has something to do with it. Lee----

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Dulles wanted to know what you based this idea that he was an agent on?

Mrs. OSWALD. That is one part. That is the beginning of it, Mr. Dulles. I have much more. That is the beginning of it, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Did he join at 18 or 17?

Mrs. OSWALD. He joined at age 17. I signed the paper. You will please forgive me when I make mistakes, and if you will correct me.

Now, at age 15-1/2 Lee was a member of the Civil Air Patrol.

Do you have that information, gentlemen?

I don't think you have.

Now, just a minute. I am sorry--this morning, when they were copying my papers. I put this in my bag.

I have a picture right here--this is Lee at age 15-1/2 in the uniform of the Civil Air Patrol. This is before the recruiting officer. We are going back.

And this is what helped Lee to make up his mind to join the service.

The CHAIRMAN. Go right ahead, Mrs. Oswald.

Mrs. OSWALD. At age 15-1/2 or so, Lee joined the Civil Air Patrol. He went on an airplane, on flights and everything. I got him the uniform, with Robert's help. This young man--now, I do not know his name. He is from New Orleans. And I am checking on these things. I have to do research on all of this, and do it alone.

This young man and Lee were very friendly. The young man that gave Lee the idea of--went to Beauregard School with him, and he and Lee joined the Civil Air Patrol together. That is the way I wish to state this. And he often came to the house. So there is a close friend of Lee. Lee is not supposed to have any friends.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he have any girl friends, too?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. Now, neither did Robert or John Edward. No, sir. Neither of my boys had girl friends until after about age 17.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he have other close friends, boy friends, besides these that you recall?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, I would not say he had--unless during working--he was working at this time, and I was working during the day. But I mean at the house this young man came to the house, and several of the other young men, as I told you before.

Now, we are at the Civil Air Patrol.

And that is why Lee went to the Marine Corps, is because of the Civil Air Patrol. He wasn't in the Civil Air Patrol long.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, up to this point, you haven't told us anything that caused you to think he was an agent, have you?

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, maybe, sir, I am not doing a very good job of what I am saying.

Mr. RANKIN. What do you think you have said that caused you to think----

Mrs. OSWALD. I have said that a Marine recruiting officer came to my home, and that Lee then continued reading Robert's manual by heart, and started reading communist literature. He is preparing himself to go into the Marine service--at age 17--this year before he actually joined the service. I am saying he is already preparing himself.

Mr. RANKIN. To become an agent?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I think with the influence of this recruiting officer.

Mr. RANKIN. You think the recruiting officer inspired him----

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, influenced this boy.

Mr. RANKIN. ----to read the communist literature?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir--and Robert's Marine book.

Mr. RANKIN. Is there anything else you base that on, except what you have told us?

Mrs. OSWALD. About him being an agent?

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, when I get through the whole story.

Mr. RANKIN. I mean as far as the recruiting officer.

Mrs. OSWALD. No. Otherwise than Lee's attitude. Lee read this manual. He knew it by heart. I even said, "Boy, you are going to be a general, if you ever get in the Marines."

Mr. RANKIN. And you base the idea----

Mrs. OSWALD. He had the idea.

Mr. RANKIN. He was being prepared to become an agent, and inspired by this recruiting officer?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. By what you have told us about his reading the communist literature and this one pamphlet, and also the manual of the Marine Corps?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. And then living to when he is age 17 to join the Marines, which I knew, and which he did at age 17 on his birthday.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, what else do you base your idea that he was--ever became an agent or was going to become an agent on?

Mrs. OSWALD. Many, many things. We always watched--it is "I Led Three Lives"--the program--Philbrick. We always watched that. And when Lee returned from the service and the Marines, the three days--that program was on, and he turned it off. He said, "Mother, don't watch that, that is a lot of propaganda."

It has been stated publicly that the FBI did not know--didn't have Lee on the subversive list--I am probably not saying this right, gentlemen--but the rightwing in Dallas. I don't know anything politically. The FBI and Secret Service had a list of names in Dallas of people that had to be watched, and Lee Harvey Oswald was not on that list. That would lead to believe there was some reason he was not on the list.

Mr. RANKIN. Who did you get that from?

Mrs. OSWALD. From the newspapers and all over. And there has been a lot of comment about this all through.

Now, I don't say it is correct. But what I have explained to you before--my way of thinking has to go with this, because I know the boy and the whole life, and you do not, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Well, I want to try to find out all you know about it.

Mrs. OSWALD. Fine. And I want you to.

Also, Lee's letters--and I have them in the hotel--I didn't bring them, because I thought we were through, and you have the copies--most every letter from Lee tells me something.

When Lee is coming back from Russia he says, "I plan to stop over in Washington a while."

Lee says in the letter, "Marina's uncle is a major in the Soviet Union."

"I am an American citizen and I will never take Soviet citizenship."

If you will read every letter--if you think he is an agent--every letter is telling his mother--"If something happens to me, Mother, these are facts."

I might be elaborating. But I think my son is an agent. And these things piece by piece are going together, as far as I am concerned.

Representative FORD. When did you first think he was an agent?

Mrs. OSWALD. When Lee defected. And I have always said a so-called defection, for this reason.

Now, we come to another letter. I am going to have to take some time now, because we are not going in sequence. The letter Lee wrote to me from New Orleans is what I need.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you have the letter in which he says he was going to Washington?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I gave you that copy yesterday. I don't have the letter with me. They are at the hotel.

Mr. RANKIN. You gave it to us yesterday?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir--that he would stop over in Washington.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the date of that one?

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, now, he was supposed to arrive in New York on the 13th of June, 1962. And that is the letter. When he arrived, I do not know. And I do not know if he went to Washington.

As I stated yesterday, he went to Robert's house, and I was on a case. So I don't know when he arrived in New York.

Now, this is the letter. Lee is out of the Marines, and he stays home with me 3 days. And I have publicly stated--and this came out of my book this morning--Lee came home September 14, 1959. He stayed 3 days with me. Said he would like to travel on a ship working his way. Possibly export and import. He remarked he could make more money that way.

The next page is the letter he sent me, and then came the news of his being in Russia.

This is the letter.

"Dear Mother"-----

Mr. DULLES. Is that dated?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. This is just dated September. He was released from the Marine Corps on September 14th--I believe I am correct, Mr. Rankin.

And he stayed with me 3 days.

And then this is--well, the date on the envelope is September 19th. He stayed with me 3 days.

"Dear Mother, well, I have booked passage on a ship to Europe. I would have had to sooner or later, and I think it is best to go now."

"I would have had to sooner or later, so I think it is best that I go now. Just remember above all else that my values are very different from Robert or us, and it is difficult to tell you how I feel. Just remember this is what I must do. I did not tell you about my plans because you could hardly be expected to understand. I did not see Lillian while I was here. I will write you again as soon as I land. Lee."

Mr. RANKIN. What do you think he meant by that?

Mrs. OSWALD. That is what I want to tell you. All of this speculation, gentlemen. And that is why I say the Warren Commission--unless they hear my story and the witnesses involved, cannot arrive at a true conclusion.

Now, what would you think about this?

A few days later you get headlines. "Fort Worth Boy Has Defected to Russia." And I made the letter public. This letter says to his mother he is defecting to Russia--right? That is the way you would read the letter.

It is easily read this way when you think a boy has defected to Russia. So you would read the letter that way.

Mr. DULLES. Mr. Rankin, do we have correspondence while he was in the Marines?

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, do you recall any letters you received from your son during the time he was in the Marines?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I have a special delivery letter. You see, gentlemen, that is why I have tried to explain to you before--if I could have gone from the story we would not all be so mixed up. This is a letter from the Marines saying he is going to contact the Red Cross--when I told him about my illness.

Mr. RANKIN. Well, that is the correspondence in regard to his getting out of the Marines because of your need of his help and support.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, that is right.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, except for that correspondence, you don't have any other correspondence from him while he was in the Marines?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I did have several letters.

What has happened, Mr. Rankin--when Lee stayed with me the 3 days, he left his seabag with me. And that is why I have his discharge papers and things. And then, as you know, when the defection broke, I had no place to go. So the lady I was working for even threatened to call the police, because of the defection. I was working for $5 a week, gentlemen, taking care of her son. But I was happy to have a home and food, because I had had this accident, and I could rest. But my salary was $5 for the whole week. But when the news broke, she didn't want to be involved with anyone who had a son as a defector, so she asked me to leave. It was a very cold winter night. And I said I would.

But I didn't want to leave--didn't have any place to go.

She said, "You will leave now or I will call the police."

So I called Robert and he told me to come out to his home.

When I went out to his home, I brought Lee's seabag, Mr. Rankin, with me. And I stayed there just a short time. And Robert Oswald would not let me have Lee's seabag. And there were a few letters in there from Lee in the seabag.

And so I don't have the seabag.

You can read this letter, then, this way. That he is telling me he is defecting to Russia.

We all agree there.

Then this same letter could be read the way I read it, as a mother.

After three days he is leaving his mother. But we had a talk. When Lee arrived home--and I will go into this thoroughly. I was ashamed when he arrived home. I was in a one bedroom and bath and a small kitchen. And my son came in about 2 o'clock in the morning. I have never lived lavishly, but we have always had a nice clean little moderate house. And, remember, I was destitute. I had no money. You have the affidavits evidently from the Red Cross. If you don't, I have copies.

The first thing I said to him, "Honey, the first thing we will have to do is to move and find a decent place."

I had a studio couch, which has two parts. The top part I put on the floor for my son to sleep on that particular night, in the one room.

So he said, "We will talk about it in the morning, Mother."

So morning came.

I brought the subject up immediately. I said, "The first thing we will have to do is find a place. I am well enough that I can babysit or pick up a few dollars. And until I settle my claim, I think we will be able to manage, and you will get a job."

He said, "No, Mother, my mind is made up. I have thought this out thoroughly. I have no background. If I stay here, I will get a job for about $35 a week, and we will both be in a position that you are in. I want to board a ship and work in the import and export business, where there is some real money."

Mr. RANKIN. He had quite a little money saved, didn't he, from the Marines?

Mrs. OSWALD. I will tell you about this--please, gentlemen, I will have to break if you don't. This is a very, very serious life that I have gone through.

I didn't answer Lee.

This is the way I do the children.

The CHAIRMAN. We will take a 10 minute recess now.

(Brief recess.)

The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order. Mr. Rankin, you may continue.

Mrs. OSWALD. Mr. Rankin, you mentioned about the $1,600. Now. I don't know if you know for a fact that Lee had $1,600. It was publicized in the paper that he had $1,600, which is right here in 1959.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you anything about that at the time?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, he gave me $100. And he and his brother Robert had arrived. And I am assuming it was over me because Robert did not help me. And I have made that public in the Red Cross papers, that he had a family of their own, that they probably thought their duty was to their family. I had no help from the other two boys. And he gave me $100, and I stayed in this little place a few weeks, and then I got the job for $5 a week. And that is Lee's defection.

So here is my only contact with Lee in Russia, at the Metropole Hotel--this is dated December 18, 1959.

Now, I have settled with the insurance company, and I have a little money. So I sent a check to Lee for $20. And this is his little note. The only contact I had with Lee from the time of his immediate defection until the State Department 2 years later informed me of my son's address. And this is his little note that he needs money.

So I would say that Lee didn't have $1,600, according to this proof.

Now, we are speculating, as you will admit, because you thought the letter to the school was from me. And you will have to admit that I have given you new evidence. And so maybe Lee didn't have $1,600, because he is asking for money there. That is when he is right in Moscow.

Mr. RANKIN. Of course, that is quite a while later.

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. He defected the end of November. This is December 1959.

Mr. RANKIN. But he----

Mrs. OSWALD. He had to make passage, and have some money. I don't know if it took $1,600. I do not know, sir. But I am saying 5 weeks later he needs money. We haven't gotten to this file yet.

I will quote from a newspaper, the Star Telegram, 1959, his defection, by Mrs. Aline Mosby, who interviewed Lee in Moscow. It says here, "I saw my mother always as a worker, always with less than we could use, he said. He insisted his childhood was happy despite his poverty."

We had a very happy family. He insisted--this is the story in 1959. Lee had a normal childhood.

And now he is criticizing the United States. He says, "Many things bothered him in the United States. Race discrimination, harsh treatment of underdog, Communists and hate." Then on the other letter he is going to Russia to write a book. And there is another story and another story. And all kind of stories. So what are we to believe, gentlemen. Is he throwing us off the track because he is an agent. We are talking about speculation and newspaper papers, and so on. And we know when he came back that he did go to Mrs. Bates, a Fort Worth stenographer, and talked about the Soviet Union. She made it public. And he only had $10. And he did not finish that story. And she said he was very nervous. And he did not say he was an agent. But she got the impression that he was an agent. This has been made public in the Star Telegram--if you do not have that, I do.

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, is this the photostatic copy of the letter about his booking passage?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. You read the original?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. And this material on the bottom is just your own writing?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. This was in this book. That is my writing at the bottom.

Mr. RANKIN. The letter I was referring to is Exhibit 200.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, it is this letter.

Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 200.

The CHAIRMAN. Admitted.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 200 and received in evidence.)

Mr. RANKIN. Now, this one starting, "Dear Mother, received your letter, and so forth"--that is the one about the Marines, when he was asking you about getting out of the service and your need, and so forth?

Mrs. OSWALD. This is the letter which shows the different character of the boy that the newspapers are making of him--when I wrote and told him I had sold my furniture, and that my compensation and medical was stopped, immediately my son sends a special delivery letter, and that is the letter "received your letter, was very unhappy. I have contacted the Red Cross, and they will contact you." This is a nice boy to do this immediately, when he finds his mother is in trouble. He is not a louse, like the papers have been making him out. He might have some bad points, but so do all of us.

Mr. RANKIN. We will ask the reporter to mark this.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 201 for identification.)

Mr. RANKIN. Exhibit 201 is the letter you are just referring to?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 201.

The CHAIRMAN. Admitted.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 201 and received in evidence.)

Mr. RANKIN. Then, Mrs. Oswald, the other one that you received from Russia, with the check and the little note from your son Lee is the one I am showing you?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Will you mark that as Exhibit 202?

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 202 for identification.)

Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 202 and ask leave to substitute a copy.

The CHAIRMAN. Admitted.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 202 and received in evidence.)

Mrs. OSWALD. I have followed up that request and sent the $20 bill in an envelope. And I have all of this. But I am not going to go through all this paper. You will have all of this.

Mr. DULLES. Did that get through--just as a matter of curiosity.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, that is what I am going to tell you. So I put a $20 bill immediately in an envelope and sent it to Lee. And then after I thought about it, I thought of a foreign money order. And gentlemen I have all this in black and white for you, and this gentleman will copy and have it--everything I am saying. So then I went to the bank and I got a foreign money order for $25, and I sent it to Lee. It all went air mail. But it came back about 2 months later, Mr. Dulles--the $20 bill I got back in cash and the Chase National Bank foreign money order, that check came back in cash. I will have that proof for you. I understand it comes back by boat, and that is why it took so long.

So I had no way of knowing that my contact with my son was successful. I didn't know until about 2 months later he had not received my money. And by that time--well, I didn't know where he was, because I came to Washington in January of 1961, had a conference with Mr. Boster--Mr. Stanfield----

Mr. RANKIN. Did you think he was a Russian agent at this time?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not think he was a Russian agent.

Representative FORD. I thought you answered in response to a question I asked, when you thought he was an agent, you said when he defected.

Mrs. OSWALD. I might have said defected to Russia. No, sir; I never thought Lee was a Russian agent.

Representative FORD. I meant an agent of the United States. It is my recollection that you said when he defected to the Soviet Union, you then thought he was an American agent.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, that is right. That is correct.

Mr. RANKIN. What else caused you to think he was an American agent?

Mrs. OSWALD. All right. I might be letting things out the way I am going. And I am very unhappy about this. Had I started with his childhood I could have worked up to age 15 very peacefully, and you would have gotten everything. I hope I am not forgetting anything important. But now we have letters from the State Department.

Well, my trip to Washington has to come before the letters to the State Department, sir. So I am in conference with the three men. I showed them the letter from the--the application from the Albert Schweitzer College, and Lee's mail had been coming to my home. I didn't know whether he was living or dead. I did not want to mail these papers. So I made a personal trip to Washington.

I arrived at Washington 8 o'clock in the morning. I took a train, and borrowed money on an insurance policy I have, which I have proof. I had a bank account of $36, which I drew out and bought a pair of shoes. I have all that in proof, sir, the date that I left for the train. I was 3 nights and 2 days on the train, or 2 days and 3 nights. Anyhow, I took a coach and sat up.

I arrived at the station 8 o'clock in the morning and I called the White House. A Negro man was on the switchboard, and he said the offices were not open yet, they did not open until 9 o'clock. He asked if I would leave my number. I asked to speak to the President. And he said the offices were not open yet. I said, "Well, I have just arrived here from Fort Worth, Tex., and I will call back at 9 o'clock."

So I called back at 9 o'clock. Everybody was just gracious to me over the phone. Said that President Kennedy was in a conference, and they would be happy to take any message. I asked to speak to Secretary Rusk, and they connected me with that office. And his young lady said he was in a conference, but anything she could do for me. I said, "Yes. I have come to town about a son of mine who is lost in Russia. I do want to speak--I would like personally to speak to Secretary Rusk." So she got off the line a few minutes. Whether she gave him the message or what I do not know. She came back and said, "Mrs. Oswald, Mr. Rusk"--so evidently she handed him a note--and Mr. Boster was on the line--"that you talk to Mr. Boster, who is special officer in charge of Soviet Union affairs"--if I am correct. And Mr. Boster was on the line. I told him who I was. He said, "Yes, I am familiar with the case, Mrs. Oswald." He said, "Will an 11 o'clock appointment be all right with you?" This is 9 o'clock in the morning. So I said--this is quite an interesting story--I said, "Mr. Boster that would be fine. But I would rather not talk with you." I didn't know who Mr. Boster was. I said, "I would rather talk with Secretary of State Rusk. However, if I am unsuccessful in talking with him, then I will keep my appointment with you."

So I asked Mr. Boster--I said, "Mr. Boster, would you please recommend a hotel that would be reasonable?" He said, "I don't know how reasonable, Mrs. Oswald, but I recommend the Washington Hotel. It will be near the State Department and convenient to you."

So I went to the Washington Hotel. And as we know, gentlemen, there were nothing but men. They asked me if I had reservation. I said, "No, I didn't, but Mr. Boster of the State Department recommended that I come here." So they fixed me up with a room. I took a bath and dressed. I went to the appointment--because this is 9:30, I am on the phone, and I had to take a cab to the hotel. I arrived at Mr. Boster's office at 10:30.

But before arriving at Mr. Boster's office. I stopped at a telephone in the corridor, and I called Dean Rusk's office again, because I didn't want to see Mr. Boster, and I asked to speak to Dean Rusk. And the young lady said, "Mrs. Oswald, talk to Mr. Boster. At least it is a start."

So then I entered around the corridor into Mr. Boster's office. I have all the pictures of the State Department and everything to prove this story is true. I told the young lady. "I am Mrs. Oswald. I have an 11 o'clock appointment." Mr. Boster came out and said, "Mrs. Oswald, I am awfully glad you came early, because we are going to have a terrible snow storm, and we have orders to leave early in order to get home."

So he called Mr. Stanfield--the arrangements had been made--now, the other man--I don't have that name here for you, Mr. Rankin.

Mr. RANKIN. Is it Mr. Hickey?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, Mr. Hickey. You are correct.

So then we were in conference. So I showed the papers, like I am showing here. And I said, "Now, I know you are not going to answer me, gentlemen, but I am under the impression that my son is an agent." "Do you mean a Russian agent?" I said, "No, working for our Government, a U.S. agent. And I want to say this: That if he is, I don't appreciate it too much, because I am destitute, and just getting over a sickness," on that order.

I had the audacity to say that. I had gone through all of this without medical, without money, without compensation. I am a desperate woman. So I said that.

Mr. RANKIN. What did they say to you?

Mrs. OSWALD. They did not answer that. I even said to them, "No, you won't tell me." So I didn't expect them to answer that.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you mean you were seeking money from them?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. I didn't think that my son should have gone--in a foreign country, and me being alone. What I was saying was that I think my son should be home with me, is really what I implied.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you tell them that?

Mrs. OSWALD. In the words that I said before--I didn't come out and say I want my son home. But I implied that if he was an agent, that I thought that he needed to be home.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you say anything about believing that your son might know full well what he was doing in trying to defect to the Soviet Union, he might like it better there than he did here?

Mrs. OSWALD. I do not remember saying this. I know what I did say, and they agreed with me. I said--because I remember this distinctly. I said, "Now, he has been exploited all through the paper as a defector. If he is a defector"--because as we stated before, I don't know he is an agent, sir--and if he is a defector, that is his privilege, as an individual.

And they said, "Mrs. Oswald, we want you to know that we feel the same way about it." That was their answer.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you say anything about possibly he liked the Soviet way of life better than ours?

Mrs. OSWALD. I may have. I do not remember, sir. Honestly. I may have said that. I recall that they agreed with me, and they said, "We want him also to do what he wants to do."

So now this is January 2, 1961, is my trip to Washington. Approximately 8 weeks later, on March 22, 1961--which is 8 weeks--I received a letter from the State Department informing me of my son's address.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall that they assured you there was no evidence he was an agent?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, there was no comment to that effect.

Mr. RANKIN. And they told you to dismiss any such ideas from your mind?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. You are sure they didn't tell you that?

Mrs. OSWALD. I am positive. I said to them, "Of course, I don't expect you to answer me." No, sir, there was nothing mentioned about the agent at all. And in fact, I would think, just as a layman, that the State Department would not even consider discussing that with me. But I mean it was not discussed. I am positive of that.

Mr. RANKIN. If they recorded in a memorandum as of that date that they did say that to you, that would be incorrect?

Mrs. OSWALD. That is incorrect, emphatically incorrect. That is incorrect. Because I said, "I don't expect you to tell me. But if he is an agent," I didn't think it was the thing to do.

Well, on January 21 was my trip to Washington, 1961. Approximately 8 weeks later, on March 22, 1961, I received a letter from the State Department informing me of my son's address, which you probably have, if you don't, sir, I have the copies. And also stating that my son wishes to return back to the United States--just 8 weeks after my trip to Washington.

Now, you want to know why I think my son is an agent. And I have been telling you all along.

Here is a very important thing why my son was an agent. On March 22 I receive a letter of his address and stating that my son wishes to return back to the United States. You have that, sir?

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Mrs. OSWALD. On April 30, 1961, he marries a Russian girl--approximately 5 weeks later.

Now, why does a man who wants to come back to the United States, 5 weeks later--here is the proof--April 30, 1961, is the wedding date--marry a Russian girl? Because I say--and I may be wrong--the U.S. Embassy has ordered him to marry this Russian girl. And a few weeks later, May 16, 1961, he is coming home with the Russian girl. And as we know, he does get out of the Soviet Union with the Russian girl, with money loaned to him by the U.S. Embassy. I may be wrong, gentlemen, but two on two in my books makes four.

I have many more things that can go to this, and that has been published. I will probably never know whether my son was an agent, because I do not expect to be told these facts. But isn't it peculiar that a boy is coming home, and the Embassy informs me of that--I have all this, Mr. Rankin, and you know I do. You will have the copies. And then 5 weeks later he marries a Russian girl. And the proof of it is that he does come home with the Russian girl in a short length of time. And Lee would have been home 1 year earlier. But because of the lack of money to come home.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever ask him whether he married the Russian girl because they ordered him to?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. I have never asked Lee any questions of that kind. The only question I asked Lee was when they were living with me that 1 month, I said, "Lee, I want to know one thing. Why is it you came back to the United States when you had a job and you were married to a Russian girl," and they sent me lovely gifts and photographs and everything. So they seemed to be well off.

I have a beautiful scarf--they sent tea, boxes of candy, which the postage is terrific. He says, "not even Marina knows that." And that is the only question I have ever asked my son. This may be hard to believe. But I have explained to you over and over that I think we, as individuals, have a right to our own life.

Mr. RANKIN. You saw your daughter-in-law and your son living together with you, didn't you, for some time?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. They lived with me 1 month.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you think they were in love with each other?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, they were definitely in love with each other. Yes, I think they were in love with each other.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you think at that time it was just because he was an agent and ordered to marry her that he married her?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. I would say this. This is purely speculation. He knew Marina, and he loved Marina. They met at a dance. So that was--he had a girl friend. We are saying if he is an agent--I have to say "if." Then he tells the Embassy that he is in love with a Russian girl. And so it is a good idea to bring the Russian girl to the United States. He will have contacts.

Now, when I was in Mrs. Paine's home, on the table was a lot of papers from Lee. The Daily Worker I happen to know about. And many, many subversive--now, I say if Lee is going to assassinate a President, or Lee is anything that he is otherwise than an agent, Lee would not have all these things, he would not have his finger in everything.

He would not be reading only communism and Marxism, that he would be a fanatic about that one thing and have a cause to assassinate the President.

But that is not the picture of Lee Harvey Oswald. Lee has his hand in everything.

Mr. RANKIN. What do you mean by everything?

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, Cuba--because we know in New Orleans he was arrested for Fair Play for Cuba. He read the Daily Worker. And the other ones I don't know. But it was in the paper. There is plenty of subversive material.

Mr. RANKIN. What about books? Did he read books much while he was living with you?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, he read continuously. He went immediately to the library upon coming to the United States. He read continuously. All kinds of books. I tried, when he defected--I went to the library to find out the kind of literature that Lee read. But they could not give me that information. They said the only way they could give that information was when a book was overdue, and was out. But otherwise they have no record.

Now, it has been stated in the paper--maybe New Orleans is different, I don't know, but I know in Fort Worth I could not get the information. Stated he had books--the assassination of Huey Long and things of that sort. They must have a different system. Because in Fort Worth, Tex., they do not have that system. The only way they can tell is if a book is out. But I know Lee read. And I have stated in 1959 all of this.

Anyway, from Vincent Peale on down to anything you want to mention. Lee read continuously.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, was there any time that Marina said anything to you to lead you to believe that she thought your son, Lee, married her because he was an agent?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, no, sir. Not at any time at all.

Mr. RANKIN. You think she loved him?

Mrs. OSWALD. I believe that Marina loved him in a way. But I believe that Marina wanted to come to America. I believe that Lee had talked America to her, and she wanted to come to America. I say this for a lot of little things that happened--that Marina wanted to come to America. Maybe she loved him. I am sure she did, anyway. She said that she did.

Mr. RANKIN. I am not clear about this being ordered to marry her. You don't mean that your son didn't love her.

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, I could mean that--if he is an agent, and he has a girl friend, and it is to the benefit of the country that he marry this girl friend, and the Embassy helped him get this Russian girl out of Russia--let's face it, well, whether he loved her or not, he would take her to America, if that would give him contact with Russians, yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Is that what you mean?

Mrs. OSWALD. I would say that.

Mr. RANKIN. And you don't think it was because your son loved her, then?

Mrs. OSWALD. I do not know whether my son loved her or not. But I am telling you why he would do this--in 5-weeks time. Now, you have a 5-week period in here.

Mr. RANKIN. I understand that. But I think it is a very serious thing to say about your son, that he would do a thing like that to a girl.

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, it is not a serious thing. I know a little about the CIA, and so on, the U-2, Powers, and things that have been made public. They go through any extreme for their country. I do not think that would be serious for him to marry a Russian girl and bring her here, so he would have contact. I think that is all part of an agent's duty.

Mr. RANKIN. You think your son was capable of doing that?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I think my son was an agent. I certainly do.

Mr. RANKIN. Have you got anything more that caused you to think he was an agent?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I have things that have been coming out in the paper. And I am not the only one that thinks my son is an agent. There has been many, many publications questioning whether Lee was an agent or not because of circumstances, and so on, and so forth, through the newspapers.

Mr. RANKIN. That is newspaper accounts you are talking about now?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. And as I said about the FBI.

Mr. RANKIN. What about your own knowledge?

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, that is why I wanted to go into the story. I wouldn't have become emotionally upset had I started in sequence.

I told you about him not wanting me to see that program. And then the letters. There is so much. About him being an agent--all of his correspondence with the Embassy in Moscow. I have the letters in the hotel. One of the letters states that the Russians cannot hold you--"the Russians cannot hold you. You are an American citizen. You are not a bona fide Russian resident." We have the letters. You have a copy of the letter, Mr. Rankin.

And "if you will show this letter to the Russians, they cannot hold you in Minsk."

Mr. RANKIN. They would say that about you if you were over there, or anyone.

Mrs. OSWALD. The point I am trying to bring there is Lee has always been an American citizen--according to all of my papers from the State Department.

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Mrs. OSWALD. And they would say that about anyone--all right, I will grant you that. You are probably right.

Mr. RANKIN. So that doesn't prove he is an agent, that I can see.

Now, how do you feel it shows he was an agent?

Mrs. OSWALD. Because he has the sanction of the American Embassy all through this affair.

Mr. RANKIN. They would give that to any of us.

Mrs. OSWALD. All right--so you are telling me that. But this man is married to a Russian girl, and does come back within a short time, and could have come back sooner. It was the lack of money. And that is another thing.

The State Department repeatedly kept writing me, and I have the letters, for the money. I have copies of my letters also. I could not raise the money. I said I had a '54 Buick car, and all I could get a loan on was $250. They wrote back and said could you ask some friends, or do you have any relatives--800 and some odd dollars they needed. And I went to 12 very prominent people in Vernon, Tex.--one who is a very respected citizen that they recommended me to go, who has a citizen award. And I felt very confident maybe he would help me. I told him that my son, who was a very young man, who was an American citizen, is trying to get back to the United States, but there is lack of money, and if he knew of any way possible he could help me.

He said "You mean he is a defector?" I said, "Possibly so. The paper has said he was a defector." And he said, "Well, I am sorry, Mrs. Oswald, but these boys that are in the service and defect, I don't have any use for."

And I said, "Do you go to church, sir?" He said, "Yes, I do." And I said, "Probably you go to church to put your hat on. Because here is a boy. Let's say he has made a mistake. He has gone to Russia. But let's say he realizes now he has made a mistake, and he wants to come back. Are you telling me you won't help him?"

"That is what I am telling you, Mrs. Oswald. I don't have any use for anybody." Which Senator Tower said that he would not help Lee--made it public. These are nice people saying this. I say the ones who are down and out are the ones that need the help. This boy was a young boy. Let's say he is not an agent. Let's say he defected to Russia. Yet he wants to come back. He deserved a helping hand. I went to 12 people. I did not beg. But I presented my case. And not a one offered to help.

Mr. RANKIN. Didn't you understand that the State Department had to try to find out if they could--or you or your son could get the money from other sources before they could advance the money?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I understand that. I am trying to tell you that I tried awfully hard, but with no success.

Mr. RANKIN. So they were just trying to do their duty in that regard, were they not?

Mrs. OSWALD. It could be, yes. It could be.

Mr. RANKIN. You don't think that makes him an agent, just because they asked you----

Mrs. OSWALD. I think--well, as you say, they would probably help anyone. And then again, because he is married to a Russian girl, and because all these documents and everything are handled through the U.S. Embassy. And because of my trip to Washington--which was red carpet treatment. Let's say, gentlemen, if a woman gets on the phone at 9 o'clock and has an appointment at 11 o'clock with three big men, that is wonderful treatment.

Now, they probably would do that to anybody. I don't know.

Mr. RANKIN. They might have done that----

Mrs. OSWALD. I haven't been that fortunate before.

Mr. RANKIN. Well, that shouldn't be held against them that they treated you nicely.

Mrs. OSWALD. No, I have told you, Mr. Rankin, they were most gracious to me. The Administration was most gracious to me.

Mr. RANKIN. I don't see why you should think that because they treated you nicely, that was any sign he was an agent.

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, maybe you don't see why. But this is my son. And this is the way I think, because I happen to know all of the other things that you don't know--the life and everything. I happen to think this. And this is my privilege to think this way. And I can almost back it up with these things.

This is a stranger to you folks. But this is a boy I have known from a child.

Mr. RANKIN. How much money do you think, he received for being an agent?

Mrs. OSWALD. That I do not know.

Mr. RANKIN. You have no idea?

Mrs. OSWALD. But I do know this, and I have stated this. I have approximately 900 and some odd dollars. And I lost my job. That can be proven. I was a nurse on the 3 to 11 shift, working in a rest home, for a very wealthy woman. And it would have been at least a year, a year and a half case. She is not that bad off. She is just an invalid. She is going to live quite a while.

When I returned home from the Six Flags on Thanksgiving Day, the Deputy Sheriff at Fort Worth, Tex. went to get my pay. And the nurse, the 7 to 3:30 o'clock nurse--I went 3 to 11--and my patient cried and said that they were awfully sorry, but they could not have me back on the case. That the woman at the rest home refused to have me.

Now, I was not working for the rest home. I was doing private duty. But I understand that this is her place of business, and my presence there might have been--hurt her money part. But this is our Christian way of life. The boy was accused of killing the President, with no proof. And then the mother loses her job.

Now, that is my position. You asked me the question. But Marina has $35,000 publicly. What she has, I do not know.

Now, gentlemen, $35,000 is a lot of money in donation dribs and drabs--is a very large sum of money. I question where does that money come from. Yes, some of it could be coming from Lee's back pay. And she might have more than that. That was the amount made public--$35,000. And here is a mother without a job. And everybody knows I have no money. And my contributions are 900 and some odd dollars.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, when you say that money that Marina has might come from your son's back pay, what do you base that on? Just speculation?

Mrs. OSWALD. I am basing all of this on speculation. Sir, if I had proof, I would not be taking my energy and my emotional capacity to bring all this out--if I had proof he was an agent.

Mr. RANKIN. When they asked you to contribute some money to help bring him home from Russia, did it occur to you that if he is an agent the government could just pay his way?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. But they don't want the public to know he is an agent. They want me to have all of this. They don't want the public to know. I am going around to people--you brought up a very good point. I am going around trying to get money for this boy to come home, so the public knows. Sure, they could have given him the money to come home.

Mr. RANKIN. Are you trying to get money now? I don't understand what you mean by that?

Mrs. OSWALD. I think, Mr. Rankin, you asked me the question that if he was an agent, that the Government would have given him the money to come home without any trouble. I say just the opposite. That it was a very good point. If he was an agent, it would make it hard for him to get the money to come home.

Remember, I am under the impression he is coming home with this Russian girl in order to continue his work. So he cannot be given the money immediately to come home, because his mother might tell the story to someone. Lee was almost a year coming home for lack of money. So then they have an excuse to loan him the money.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever learn that he was getting money from the Red Cross in addition to his pay--that is the Russian or Soviet Red Cross, when he was over there?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. You don't know what he did with that?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know anything about that. The Red Cross from here?

Mr. RANKIN. The Soviet Red Cross.

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, I know nothing about that.

Mr. RANKIN. You didn't know he was supposed to have gotten an amount equal to the pay he received from his job. He got that from the Red Cross.

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't follow you. I do not know. I don't understand.

Mr. RANKIN. He got so much a month from his job in the electronics factory. You understood that.

Mrs. OSWALD. In Russia?

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Mrs. OSWALD. He was not in an electronics factory. I thought he was working in a radio factory. All right, fine.

Mr. RANKIN. And then he got an equal amount, we understand, from the Red Cross of the Soviet Union. Did you know that?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. Now, explain to me--when you say the Red Cross of the Soviet Union. Is that our American Red Cross in the Soviet Union, or this is part of the Russian Red Cross?

Mr. RANKIN. This is part of the Russian Red Cross.

Mrs. OSWALD. I do not know that.

Mr. RANKIN. It is not any part of the American Red Cross.

Mrs. OSWALD. No, I do not know that.

Mr. RANKIN. Their Red Cross is somewhat different than ours, I understand, because the Government has so much to do with activity there that the Red Cross is closely associated with the Government itself, while in this country, as you know, it is generally supported by the public.

Mrs. OSWALD. No, I did not know that.

Now, one other thing pertaining to this. When Marina and Lee returned from Russia, and they were at my daughter-in-law's home, Robert's home, and I came in from the job in the country to see them, I said--up until this time, gentlemen, I thought Russians were peasant-looking people, like the public. And I said, "Lee, she doesn't look Russian at all. She looks American." He said, "Of course, mother, that is why I married her, is because she looks American." In front of my daughter-in-law and Robert. He bragged that she looked like an American girl. And there is all little things of that sort.

As I say, I cannot remember everything in my life, because I am going--this is way back--in a few hours time, Mr. Rankin. But there is many, many things that come up.

Mr. RANKIN. How does that show that he was an agent at that time. I don't understand that.

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't either. But I am telling you the expressions. He is making a point. And what I was going to make a point--Lee loved his work, and Lee loved the Marines. Lee loved the Marines, Mr. Rankin. Even coming back--he was a military man. And that has also been stated in the paper, that he had a military manner about him. I think District Attorney Wade remarked something of that order. People have noticed that.

Mr. RANKIN. What made you think he loved the Marines? Was there something he did when he came back?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. He loved the Marines because his brother was a Marine, for one thing. And John Edward--that is his career--14 years. My brother was in the Navy. His father was a veteran. We are a servicemen family. And I know Lee loved the Marines. I told you how he read the manual before he left. And on leaves, coming home, Lee would brag. He even said when he came home from Japan, "mother, my stay in Japan, just the trip alone would have cost about $2,000."

Now, Lee, I know also, was in the Air Force of the Marines, and he went to Biloxi, Miss., for schooling. Lee has had quite a bit of schooling. And Lee spoke Russian equivalent to 1 year when he defected to Russia. I have that on his application from the Albert Schweitzer College. And Lee spoke and wrote Russian fluently when he went to Russia. So Lee learns Russian in the Marines.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he ever talk about reenlisting into the Marines after he returned?

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, when Lee returned he was with me 3 days, and then, of course, he went over to visit Robert's house. So actually we didn't talk. I was trying to find a home. And I didn't think he would go. I was hoping that Lee would not go on the ship and work. I was hoping he would stay home. We were interrupted before. When he said to me about, that he wanted to work on a ship in the import and export business, I started to tell you I agreed with him. And this is how you have to do--particularly when you are a woman. A father could tell the man, "You are not going to do this." But I went along with that. And then the next day I said, "Lee, why don't you stay," and I went into that--"until I settle my claim, and I can babysit and we can get along." He said, "No, my mind is made up. If I stay, we will both be in these circumstances." So on the third day--I knew he wanted to do this, but I didn't think he was going to do it for a month or two. But on the third day he came with his suitcase in the room and he said, "Mother, I am off." So since his mind was made up, I told him goodby.

Mr. RANKIN. He said nothing about reenlisting in the Marines?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, the three days he was home. That was the conversation, about him going on a ship. I saw his passport. And his passport was stamped "import and export" on his passport.

Mr. RANKIN. Did it say anything about Soviet Russia on it?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. What I am saying is that I saw the passport with big writing "export and import." I think it was blue. I did not read the passport, because Lee was there, but I happened to see the passport, "export and import" stamped.

Whether he had another passport, I do not know. I didn't ask. I am saying this--and God knows I am telling you the truth. I am just this type person. It is because of my life.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you know that he spoke Russian at that time, when he had this passport?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not know. The only time I knew that he spoke Russian is what came out in the news. But when I really knew was Lee's application for the Albert Schweitzer College. Shall we go into that--the application?

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Mrs. OSWALD. Now, the first that I knew--no, I am wrong. It is not the first I knew. I had received a letter from Lee while in the Marines before he knew of my trouble, stating that he was accepted by the Albert Schweitzer College. And that letter was in the sea bag that I told you about, that I do not have.

Mr. DULLES. Would you give us the date of that letter?

Mrs. OSWALD. The other letter would have been--let's see. Lee was told in July about my trouble. And the other letter I would say would be about May or June. This is March 22. I received this in care of Lee. And you see, sir, I have a lot of addresses, because I am now living in these homes.

Mr. DULLES. '57 or '58?

Mrs. OSWALD. 1960.

Let's see now. Then I heard from the State Department in 1961.

"Due to a number of circumstances, we found ourselves forced to make a slight change in the arrival and departure dates of the third term. The first lecture will be held on Tuesday afternoon 16.00 o'clock, April 19, instead of taking place on the 21st with the arrival day on the 20th. It will mean that the students arrive either on the evening of Monday, the 18th, or before noon on April 19th. This change, however, makes it possible to end the term on the weekend of July 2. We hope that you will still be able to fit this change of dates into your travel plan. Should it not be possible for you to arrive on the earlier date we, of course, understand the difficulty. In the latter case, please drop us a line."

So that is how I knew that Lee--I opened his mail. I didn't know whether my son was living or dead, sir. And that is how I knew--I won't go into all this. He made a deposit. I have all of this for you.

He made a deposit. And this is my copies to them.

Now, one thing I have forgotten.

While at the State Department, the State Department told me that Lee had gone to Finland before Russia. And I did not know that.

Now, Lee had applied at a college in Finland, evidently, because on the application it states such a fact. I did not know, because the paper just said he arrived in Russia--until I went to the State Department.

So what I am trying to say--I may be forgetting a lot of important things, because I am just now remembering what the State Department told me.

I don't think I am forgetting too much.

But, after all, I am going through a whole life, and it is very hard.

This is Lee's original application, that you cannot possibly have had. This is the only application there is. So this is something new for you gentlemen. I am not going to go through it all, because you have a copy. But I am going to show you the thinking of this young man.

"Special interests: Religious, vocational, literary, sports, and hobbies. Philosophy, psychology, ideology, football, baseball, tennis, stamp collecting"--Lee had a stamp collecting book. "Nature of private reading: Jack London, Darwin, Norman Vincent Peale, scientific books, philosophy, and so on."

Representative FORD. That is an application to where?

Mrs. OSWALD. This is an original application for the Albert Schweitzer School.

"Active part taken in organizations. Student body movement in school for control of juvenile delinquency, member YMcA, and AYA association."

I don't know what that is.

Mr. RANKIN. Where did you get this copy?

Mrs. OSWALD. I had contacted Congressman Jim Wright, that has helped me--helped me to locate Lee through the State Department. But Mr. Jim Wright was not successful.

I was successful because of my trip to Washington, as you know.

And from the trip to Washington, I went to the building where Mr. Jim Wright worked, and I went in to tell the secretary about the trip to Washington. And that I had heard from Lee.

Well, I had information here that Lee had paid a deposit. So I had written the school and asked if we were entitled to the return of the deposit, since he didn't show up. But I did not get an answer.

So Mr. Wright's secretary said that, "Mrs. Oswald, I will write and see what we can do."

So she wrote, and then they sent the application and everything back to Jim Wright's office. And that is how I got the application.

Mr. DOYLE. They may be interested in knowing where the college is.

Mrs. OSWALD. It is in Switzerland. Albert Schweitzer College, Chur Walden, Graubuenen, Switzerland. "Application Form. High School. Completed high school by correspondence."

I have that. His original correspondence in the service--completed high school.

Mr. RANKIN. Is that part of his Marine work--he finished high school that way?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

"January '58, Passing 65 on scale of 100 B plus. College: None."

And then I read his books.

Now, we go down to here.

"Vocational Interests if decided upon: To be a short story writer on contemporary American life."

Now, "General statement regarding reasons for wishing to attend the Albert Schweitzer College: In order to acquire a fuller understanding of that subject which interests me most, philosophy, to meet with Europeans who can broaden my scope of understanding, to receive formal education by institutes of high standing and character, to broaden my knowledge of German, and to live in a healthy climate and good moral atmosphere."

This is very good thinking, gentlemen. We are getting a picture now of the boy which has been not told in the paper.

I have read this one particular statement at three press conferences. The first press conference was about 80 members there, from foreign lands and everything. Nothing was printed. Then I had a second press conference with 16 men and I said, "Now, I am tired of the things that are being said about my family, myself, and Lee. We are not perfect. But I know there is some good things. And I have read a particular statement that has not been printed. Let's see if one of you has the courage to print it."

There was 16 there. That did not come out. I had a third conference, and I said the same thing and quoted this. That was not made public in the paper.

I hold a lot of these answers, gentlemen, as you know by now.

Mr. RANKIN. You notice the next paragraph, about his plans?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, "Plans to be pursued after the period at Albert Schweitzer College: To attend the short summer course of the University of Turku, Turku, Finland."

Now, I have a brochure. This I cannot understand--from this college, dated 1960. I have this for you, Mr. Rankin--dated 1960.

Lee is in Russia.

And the men in the State Department told me he went to Finland before Russia. But this is dated 1960. I have it for you.

But I don't understand that.

"Then to return to America and pursue my chosen vocation."

Mr. RANKIN. I want to ask you about that. Do you think he meant this at the time?

Mrs. OSWALD. I do not know. I am saying--and I am going to stick to my story--that Lee is an agent, then a lot of this is a lot of baloney. I cannot make it any stronger. I don't know, sir. The boy is gone, and I didn't hear from his own lips.

Mr. RANKIN. You think that he decided to defect after this application, then?

Mrs. OSWALD. I do not know, sir, because I have not had this from the boy. I am speculating. But I have a lot of documents to sustain my speculation.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, this, you cannot tell one way or another about whether he is an agent by this.

Mrs. OSWALD. I cannot tell by anything he is an agent, if you want proof. I am becoming a little discouraged about this, because I keep telling you--I did not have proof, sir. But I am giving you documents leading to it.

Mr. RANKIN. All I am trying to find out is what you have. You are giving us that. I am also trying to find out whatever proof you have about these various things that we can rely on.

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, I am going to state once and for all, because it upsets me very much emotionally. And I have stated before, I do not have proof, sir. I do not have proof of an agent. I do not have proof my son is innocent. I do not have proof.

Mr. RANKIN. You don't have any proof of a conspiracy?

Mrs. OSWALD. Of anything. It is just as I feel, like the Dallas police do not have proof my son shot President Kennedy. If they have anything, it is circumstantial evidence. I have as much circumstantial evidence here that Lee was an agent as the Dallas police have that he shot President Kennedy.

"Familiarity with foreign languages, if any. Russian equal in fluency to about 1 year's education or schooling. I also speak a very little German. General condition of health: Good. Have you ever had any serious illness or nervous disturbances: No."

Mr. RANKIN. Is that correct?

Mrs. OSWALD. That is correct.

I want to get to that psychiatric. There will be a story there.

"Does such a condition still exist: No."

I don't understand this--do you?

"General condition of health: Good. Have you had a serious illness or nervous disturbance, no. If so, explain."

Then he has a dash.

"Are you at present receiving medical or psychiatric care? No."

And then he gives as references--you have this, so I won't go into it.

A chaplain--would you like me to go into all these names for the record?

Mr. RANKIN. No, we can offer this.

Did you know any of those people that he showed as references?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. I do not. And that is dated the 3d, 4th, '59. And this is another application form from the Albert Schweitzer College.

"I hereby apply to attend the student course from April 12, 1960 to June 27, 1960. Surname: Oswald. Christian name: Lee Harvey. Mr. Age, 20. Mother tongue: English. Other language you know: Russian. Equal in fluency to 1 year of schooling. Occupation: Student. Nationality: American. Exact address: McAF, MACS-9, Santa Ana, California, USA. Remarks: Please inform me of the amount of the deposit if required so I can forward it and confirm my reservation and show my sincerity of purpose. Thank you. Lee Harvey Oswald."

Well, he did, and I have this here, make a deposit of $25, which the school informed me that they would not be able to refund, because it would take care of any incidentals that had occurred for him not appearing.

Gentlemen, it is 10 minutes to five, I believe I had a full day. I worked last night on the papers. I came early to have copies made.

This was a complete story, I believe, and I have at least three other complete stories. And I have a story of my life that I believe from newspaper accounts that you will be very surprised also to know the type person I am. But according to the newspaper--of course, really nothing bad has been said about me, otherwise than one particular instance. That I can prove and have witnesses that it is not the case.

The CHAIRMAN. Mrs. Oswald, you said you had three more stories. Just name them. Name what stories they are, so we will know what they are.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

It would be Lee's life, sir, from early childhood, and the psychiatric treatment in New York, that I want to tell you about.

The CHAIRMAN. Up to 16?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, because we have finished that, because we went into that.

And then my life, from early childhood, which you have asked, Mr. Rankin, in a letter.

The third was Lee as an agent, which I have gone into.

The CHAIRMAN. Lee what?

Mrs. OSWALD. Lee being an agent.

But I have really gone into that.

The CHAIRMAN. So really, there are only two more?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, my life and Lee's life.

Now, I would like you to have this picture--if you have not seen it. And I will not comment on it. I want you to study it thoroughly, use a magnifying glass, if possible, and if you care to, we will discuss it.

Now, this is out of the Post Magazine.

There is another picture that I would like the Commission to get which, is in the Memorial Issue of President Kennedy--I think it is the Post. I will get that information for you.

Mr. DOYLE. Would you like to advise the Commission generally what you believe they will find out from this?

Mrs. OSWALD. I would rather not comment on that at this particular moment. I submit it to them for them to look over all the people, to study it. I have two. You may have that one for the record.

Mr. DULLES. What does this purport to be of?

Mrs. OSWALD. That is a picture of the book depository the day of the assassination of President Kennedy. And there are people in the picture.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, is there anything you want us to see in the picture?

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, I would rather you see it yourself. I see what I see.

The CHAIRMAN. What do you see?

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, all right.

I see Marina and the child--the girl and the baby, it could be Marina.

The CHAIRMAN. Will you show us, please?

Mrs. OSWALD. And, again, I am saying--I cannot be sure this is the picture. But this right here. This girl with this baby could possibly be Marina and June.

Mr. RANKIN. And that is the girl----

Mrs. OSWALD. This girl holding the baby.

Mr. RANKIN. Right next to the door?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, right next to the door. In back of her is the hat of a man. I have started this. I will continue.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 203, for identification.)

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, may I offer this?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 203.

And that is the photograph that you were just referring to, Mrs. Oswald?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is the photograph the day of the assassination.

Mr. RANKIN. And you pointed out the girl on the left column----

Mrs. OSWALD. Of the entrance to the book depository, holding a child.

(The document heretofore marked for identification as Commission Exhibit No. 203 was received in evidence.)

Mr. DULLES. Do we know the time this was taken?

Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell about the time this was taken?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. This, I understand, was when President Kennedy was shot. He is supposed to be holding his throat here. And this is the car. This is right after he passed the book depository, when he is supposed to have been shot.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well. We will adjourn until tomorrow at 10 o'clock.

(Whereupon, at 4:55 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)

_Wednesday, February 12, 1964_

TESTIMONY OF MRS. MARGUERITE OSWALD RESUMED

The President's Commission met at 10 a.m. on February 12, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.

Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Representative Hale Boggs and Representative Gerald R. Ford, members.

Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel; and John F. Doyle, attorney for Mrs. Marguerite Oswald.

The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order.

We will proceed to the hearing.

The CHAIRMAN. Mrs. Oswald, did you have anything you wanted to say to us this morning before we start the questioning?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I meant to yesterday morning. I have two or three things that are worrying me.

Mr. Rankin, on Monday, when I testified that I had not been questioned officially, you told me that I had. And if I remember correctly, sir, you said that there was 28 pages of testimony, or was it 8 pages?

Mr. RANKIN. Twenty-eight, I think.

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, Mr. Doyle, as my attorney--I am very concerned about that, because I want to know--if it is my testimony--because the little while--the testimony that I gave to the FBI when I entered the courthouse was approximately about 10 minutes. They immediately left to investigate. They did not talk to me again, sir.

And then the only other testimony that I gave on tape was the starting of Lee's defection at the Six Flags Inn, which I would say ran approximately 10 or 15 minutes. And that is the only time I have testified.

Now, if you have all this other testimony from me, I don't think it is fair, because I should know what I am supposed to have said. I need to know what I am supposed to have said.

The CHAIRMAN. Mrs. Oswald, whatever we have that we are told you have said, you and your attorney are entitled to see, and I will see that you can. We won't delay the proceeding this morning. But you may see it before you leave the building.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes--it is very important to know that.

Thank you, Justice Warren.

The CHAIRMAN. All right.

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, on that point, will it be satisfactory if we furnish a clean photostatic copy to Mr. Doyle?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes, that will be satisfactory. You may do that, yes.

Mrs. OSWALD. I certainly need to know what I am supposed to have said.

There is an FBI agent by the name of Mr. John Fain. I will ask you, Mr. Rankin, if you have his address, or do you know about Mr. John Fain?

Mr. RANKIN. I know of Mr. John Fain as one of the agents that had some interviews with your son.

Mrs. OSWALD. Now, Mr. John Fain is the agent that I called upon myself after Lee's defection. I read where the Secret Service were investigating the family background, and I mistook it for the FBI. So I called the FBI and he came to my home. And he is the agent who recommended me to talk to Jim Wright and Sam Rayburn as a friend, and to write the letters.

Now, the one point I am going to bring out is this. When Lee returned from Russia and was at Robert's home, Mr. Fain--in the meantime he had come over to Robert and talked to him several times, and to me, supposedly as a friend--he said he was not on the case. I do not know this. But he came to Robert's home and said to Lee--my daughter-in-law is a witness there--"Lee, I am not on the case, but I would like you voluntarily to come to the office at your convenience and tell me your story, because I am interested in your case. Your mother was the one who contacted me. And I have been to see Robert. And I am quite interested in a young boy going to Russia. And you must have a story."

So Lee voluntarily went with Mr. Fain to the FBI office.

Then when Lee returned, his remark was "Well, he didn't believe me. He wanted me to take a lie detector test, which I refused."

Now, Mr. John Fain may have the story we are looking for, you see--because Lee went and gave the story.

And I want to make sure you know where he is now.

I have information from Senator Mike Monroney that in March--I am ahead of my story.

The FBI agents now in Fort Worth have told me they do not know Mr. John Fain. I said I happen to know that is his name.

"Well, Mrs. Oswald, I worked in this office 9 years, and there has never been such a person as Mr. John Fain."

So I have investigated. And Senator Mike Monroney gave this information. He did work in the Fort Worth office from March 1949 to October 1962, and then he retired in January 15, 1963. He is not a man to retire as far as age, as far as I am concerned. I don't think Mr. John Fain is that old.

The CHAIRMAN. We will check that out.

Mrs. OSWALD. I have his last address in Houston, if you don't have it.

All right. Fine.

Now, one thing about Lee being an agent I read.

The neighbors that were interviewed in Fort Worth, Tex., by the FBI--this is from newspaper accounts--said that Lee always walked a few feet in front of his wife when they went walking, and they wondered about that, because it was very strange that he should walk ahead. I am speculating maybe, but maybe there is a reason that Lee would walk ahead to protect his wife.

That is my reasoning--as an agent.

The letter that is missing--and Mr. Doyle can verify this--the first letter to Lee is missing, that Lee wrote to me, rather, from Russia. And this letter stated--and it seemed to me, Mr. Rankin, I have seen it in one of the magazines--as I have stated I have sold several of Lee's letters. And maybe in the rush the letter got lost or stolen, I don't know.

But his first letter, he told me not to send him any money.

"I repeat, do not send any money as it is not necessary for you to pay me back. You could send reading matter. I am lonesome to read. Also, send a can of Rise Shaving Cream, a Gillette Razor," and there was a book he wanted to read, I believe it was 1984.

Mr. RANKIN. What date was this you sent that?

Mrs. OSWALD. This is a letter Lee sent to me that is missing--the first letter that Lee sent to me. And why I sent the money--because I had used his income tax return, which was $33, because Lee was lost--and I was destitute, and I knew Lee would never prosecute his mother for using his money, because Lee would help me.

Mr. RANKIN. You mean that was a refund.

Mrs. OSWALD. A refund. And I got the refund and used it, sir. And I also used Lee's first check that came from the Marines. And I had no way of knowing where Lee was. And I used it. And so I offered to pay Lee back. And this letter has been printed. I have seen it. But I do not have it. So that is very important.

Mr. DOYLE. As you had mentioned, you and I went through the papers that you had brought with you from your home in Texas to Washington, and we did not find such a letter among those papers.

Mrs. OSWALD. That is right. I have those letters laminated, and I didn't give a list, and if it was taken I don't know what became of the letter.

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Liebeler said he had seen references to the letter.

Mrs. OSWALD. References. And I am sure it was probably one of the letters I had sold, as I told you.

Yes, sir, you are correct there.

Now, there is another thing that we have skipped.

While in Dallas 2 weeks ago I had a press conference, and I called Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall Inc., 522 Browder, in Dallas.

Now, this is a printing shop, where Lee worked.

Now, this is another thing.

Mr. RANKIN. That was the photoengraving place that you talked about, wasn't it, in your testimony?

Mrs. OSWALD. Photoengraving place. I talked to Mr. Stovall. Now, Lee was employed there, he informs me, from October 12th to April 6th, and I asked him about the young couple coming to the house, if he was the father of the girl, or if he knew of a couple who had a Russian--the girl had a Russian father, the grandfather, as I testified.

Mr. RANKIN. What did he say about that?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, he said, no. And he didn't know about that. He said--this is the part--that Lee had worked at a place prior to his place. That is not so, and I can prove it. I was on an OB case for Mrs. Rosenthal. We will have to get a 1962 calendar. October 12th, or thereabouts, is when I was released from this OB case. And this was the Sunday that I asked to get off an hour or two, and went to Lee's house, and saw this couple.

Mr. RANKIN. October 12th was a Friday.

Mrs. OSWALD. Was a Friday. All right.

Now, so, let's see where I am.

This woman would not give me the information, of her last check to me. I tried and tried, and told her how important it was. It was a Friday. So then it would have to be, then, Mr. Rankin, the week before--the Sunday of the week before then.

Mr. RANKIN. That would be October 7, 1962.

Mrs. OSWALD. I am still going to try to investigate this thoroughly, because it is very important.

He claimed that Lee worked another place first.

Now, do you know if Lee----

The CHAIRMAN. Let's don't--we will go into those things.

Mrs. OSWALD. But if you don't know, Chief Justice Warren, how will you go into it?

The CHAIRMAN. Please don't turn this into examining the Commission. We will go into those things very thoroughly.

Just go ahead with your story.

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, this is a lie, and I want to know about this lie.

The CHAIRMAN. All right, you have told us.

Mrs. OSWALD. I have not finished, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, you may go ahead and tell what you want. But don't question the Commission. That is the only thing I am asking you.

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, I don't know about questioning.

Mr. DOYLE. I think if you compose yourself, if you would, and just go ahead and give the Commission all the information you have.

Mrs. OSWALD.. Well, that is what I think I am doing. If I am doing it a wrong way, you will have to understand. I am a layman. I am the mother of this accused boy. I understand that is what the Commission is for, to get all information possible to come to a conclusion.

And if I have found out that my date of employment is the date that Lee was employed in Dallas, and this man said he worked some place before, I think that is very important information.

The CHAIRMAN. We will check on that.

Go right ahead with your own story.

Mrs. OSWALD. Maybe I should apologize for taking up so much of the Commission's time, sir.

Mr. DOYLE. Go right ahead with the business, and when you give the Commission the facts, then the Commission will take on from there in their own judgment.

Mr. RANKIN.. Mr. Doyle, while she is taking a moment, I will hand you a photostatic copy of this tape recording of an interview with Mrs. Marguerite Oswald--it purports to be that--recorded on November 25, 1963, an interview by J. M. Howard.

Mr. DOYLE.. Thank you.

Mrs. OSWALD. Now, one thing we have not covered was Lee's discharge.

The CHAIRMAN. May I interrupt just a minute?

Is that the document we were talking about just a little while ago, a copy of which was to be given to Mrs. Oswald?

Mr. RANKIN. That is right, that is the one requested.

The CHAIRMAN. And the one you were speaking of----

Mr. RANKIN. As a 28-page document.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes--all right.

Now, you may continue, Mrs. Oswald.

Mrs. OSWALD. Thank you very much.

This is Lee's questionable, dishonorable discharge, where I come in.

The first envelope was addressed to Lee Harvey Oswald, airmail. And Lee was in Russia, as we know. We have the proof. And you have all of the copies of this, I am sure.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Mrs. OSWALD. And this you do not have. You have a copy now, but you do not have the story, Mr. Rankin.

It states that the discharge by reason of unfitness, recommendation for discharge, reason of unfitness.

Well. I wrote to the U.S. Marine Corps--now, where is the copy of my letter?

I talked to a commandant at the Marine Corps and read this to him. And he advised me how to write to the Marine Corps, the official of the Marine Corps. And that is a copy of the letter.

I asked--well, he will get me the letter, I am sure.

So then I will read the answer to my letter.

Is that satisfactory?

Mr. RANKIN. Yes. Mr. Liebeler is going to get the copy that he has.

Now, can you tell the Commission when you first learned about this matter?

Mrs. OSWALD. It would be on the envelope, sir. The envelope is mailed, Glenview, April 29, Illinois. But, as you see, it had gone to a lot of addresses, because I had moved around quite a bit. So we would have to say I got it some time later than the original.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, does this involve the question of the undesirable discharge?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it does.

Mr. RANKIN. And did you ever write to Secretary Connally about that, later Governor Connally?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, I never did write to him.

Mr. RANKIN. All right. Will you tell us what happened?

Mrs. OSWALD. I wrote a letter, and was told how to write the letter.

And this is the answer to the letter.

I won't read it all, because you have a copy. But I have a few points to make here.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall who told you that--the name of the man?

Mrs. OSWALD. It was the Marine Base in Fort Worth, Tex., one of the captains there.

Mr. RANKIN. Thank you.

Mrs. OSWALD. Told me who to write to.

Mr. RANKIN. You don't remember the name?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. RANKIN. All right.

Mrs. OSWALD. The letter to Commandant, Marine Air Reserve, 50 JTMGR, 26 April 1962, "to your son was prompted by his request for Soviet citizenship. An investigation concerning this matter has been conducted by military authorities and the case will be placed before a board of officers which will recommend that your son be retained in or separated from the U.S. Marine Corps Reserve. Your son, of course, has the right to appear in person or to present any facts or evidence which would assist the board in reaching its decision. The letter of 26 April 1960 informed him of his rights. In view of the fact that he has not been informed--that he has not informed this headquarters of his current address, and that he has left the United States without permission, it is considered that a letter sent to the last address on file at this headquarters is sufficient notification. A letter will be sent by certified mail informing your son of a convening date of the board. Should you be aware of any facts or information which would assist the board in evaluating your son's case, it is suggested that you forward them to this headquarters. It is regretted that action of this nature must be taken in your son's case. M. G. Letscher, First Lieutenant, United States Marine Corps, Administrative Office, Aviation Class 3, Reserve Section."

Now, my letter is important.

Now, this was addressed to me. This is what I want the Commission to know. This was addressed to Lee, the original. Then I wrote in behalf of my son, and this was addressed to me.

Then I received a letter addressed to Mr. Lee Harvey Oswald.

By now, I am corresponding with these people, and I ask for--I need my letter. And I ask for the reason for the dishonorable discharge, and said that I would act in behalf of my son, because I have pertinent information to that fact.

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, I will ask the reporter to mark this as the next number.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 204, for identification.)

Mr. RANKIN. This is correspondence with regard to the dishonorable discharge.

Mrs. Oswald, will you look at a photostatic copy of that correspondence?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, that is the letter I just read. That is the back of the envelope. And this letter.

Mr. RANKIN. That is a very poor copy.

Mrs. OSWALD. Is this the letter we taped?

Mr. LIEBELER. I don't believe so, no.

Mrs. OSWALD. I know we taped one, because we could not copy it.

Mr. RANKIN. Can you read it?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. "I desire to inform"----

Mr. RANKIN. That is your letter of April 10, 1960?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. And who did you send it to?

Mr. LIEBELER. May I say this, Mr. Rankin: We did tape that, and I do have a transcription of it here.

Mrs. OSWALD. "I ask for a stay of action, and I will be willing to act in his behalf."

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald. I will hand you what I am asking the reporter to mark as Exhibit 205.

I ask you if Exhibit 205 is a correct transcription of your letter.

MRS. OSWALD. Yes.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 205, for identification.)

Mrs. OSWALD. "I am writing you on behalf of my son. He is out of the country at present, and since I have no contact with him I wish to request a stay of action concerning his discharge. Also, I desire to be informed of the charges against him. Please state reasons for such discharge. After hearing from you, I will be willing to act in his behalf."

So then comes a registered return receipt, addressed only to Mr. Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, will you examine the rest of Exhibit 204 and state whether that is the rest of the correspondence in regard to the matter that you know about?

Mrs. OSWALD. This is addressed to me--this envelope is addressed to me, that is right, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. And those photostatic copies in Exhibit 204 are all copies of your papers that you furnished to us, so we could make them, is that right?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct.

Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibits 204 and 205.

The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted, with those numbers.

(The documents heretofore marked for identification as Commission Exhibits Nos. 204 and 205 were received in evidence.)

Mrs. OSWALD. I believe, Chief Justice Warren, I am giving information that this Commission did not have before. I do not think they had this return addressee, which is important, because after corresponding with me, as Mrs. Marguerite Oswald, they sent the dishonorable discharge in Lee's name, addressee only, when they knew he was out of the country.

I would like to know why.

That is another reason why I think that Lee was probably an agent.

Mr. RANKIN. What do you mean by that, Mrs. Oswald? Could you explain that a little more?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I do not think they wanted me to have the dishonorable discharge.

Again, they wanted me to be upset and tell people about it, but not have the proof of the dishonorable discharge.

Mr. RANKIN. Don't you think it is possible that they felt he was the one involved, and, therefore, they had to get the word directly to him for legal reasons?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, because, legally--I am glad you brought up the point, Mr. Rankin.

Your copies state that anyone can act in your behalf. And I wrote, as I read the copy, that I would be willing to act in my son's behalf, and I was making arrangements to get money and go there and act in his behalf because I had pertinent information. And they ignored my letter and sent this--yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. They may have felt you had not been given authority to act.

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, what they may feel and what they should do--I am saying I am an American citizen, and I have some rights. And when I want to act in behalf of my son, we don't know whether he is living or dead, then I should act in behalf, I should not get a return.

I am glad you are bringing these points up. My rights have been invaded and my son's.

I make that statement for the record.

Now, we shall go to Lee's childhood.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Mrs. OSWALD. Now, Chief Justice Warren, I have pictures of my son that Mr. Jenner would like this Commission to have, because it shows Lee at age 15 and 16, and myself, which was supposed to be a life of psychiatric treatment. And I am more than happy--I volunteered to help my country in every way possible--to let the Commission have everything that I have. But you must understand that these are very valuable pictures, sir. I am having people wanting rights to a book, and these pictures are very, very valuable to me. And I would not want any of these pictures lost. Financially they are valuable, and to my story, sir. And they are the only pictures in existence.

I have sold a few pictures in order to live.

But the way I have done it--the photographer had this picture in particular--have come to my home and copied the pictures and gave it to me back in my hand. I cannot afford to have any of these pictures lost, sir. It is my story that some day I hope to write.

So I was told that if I continue with the life history of Lee as a child and show the pictures, then they would have to be admitted for the record.

Am I correct, sir?

The CHAIRMAN. That is our way of proceeding, yes.

Mrs. OSWALD. So now when I show the pictures, will you personally give me assurance that these pictures will in no way be used?

The CHAIRMAN. No, I cannot do that. The Commission cannot do it. If you have something that you consider your personal property, that you do not want to give to the Commission, you may withhold it.

Mrs. OSWALD. I did not say, sir, I did not want to give it to the Commission.

The CHAIRMAN. Just a minute. I do not believe they bear directly on the matter we are investigating. They might be helpful. They might not be helpful. But you may have the choice of determining whether you want to introduce them or not.

But if you do introduce them, the Commission cannot put any limitation upon the use that it might make of them.

Now, I don't mean by that that we are going to necessarily distribute them or anything of that kind. But the Commission cannot limit itself in the reception of its evidence. It must have the power to do with it whatever is necessary to develop the facts.

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, I give you that power. And I voluntarily would like for you to have everything I have, including pictures. But I just wanted assurance that these pictures would not be exploited in any way. For some reason or other--I am not putting it into words--but these are my personal pictures. And I want the Commission to have them. And it is pertinent to the story, I understand, Mr. Doyle, is that correct--because it shows Lee smiling, and his life and my life in New Orleans, which, I understand that the Commission is very interested in.

Am I not correct, Mr. Doyle?

Mr. DOYLE. Mrs. Oswald, as the situation has developed here, the introduction of the pictures into evidence, of course, must necessarily involve their physical copying, and the retention of the copies in the file. The Commission itself has stated that it can give you no assurance whatsoever concerning the use of these papers.

I would, myself, be of the view that the pictures introduced into the record here would be certainly used for the purposes of the investigation and the purposes of the Commission as established by the Executive order.

But they can give you no blanket--or have not chosen to give you any blanket assurance of the use of the pictures, and have given you completely the choice that if you have any concern about it whatsoever, that you retain the pictures yourself.

The choice they have given you is if you wish to have--to present the pictures to the Commission in the course of your testimony, they will be glad to receive them, they will--there will be copies made of them, the originals, of course, will remain in your custody. Their purposes will be--their use will be the uses of the Commission. But the Commission gives you no assurance whatsoever of the use, and gives you the complete choice of either submitting them or not under those circumstances.

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, being a layman, I understand, I think, what you are telling me, in a way. But, on the other hand, being a layman, I feel actually I have no choice.

You have to understand I am not an attorney.

Mr. DOYLE. But you do have a choice, because you are not here under subpena. Your materials have not been subpenaed. The Commission has advised you openly here that you may submit them or not as you see fit to do. So there is no force, no legal force at all. This is absolutely up to you.

The only thing that has been expressed to you is that they can give you no assurance or guarantee as to what use the Commission will make of them, that they will make what use they believe in their judgment is required by the Executive order and the purposes of their investigation.

Mrs. OSWALD. I understand. And that is why I wanted the Commission to have all pictures that I have.

Now, may I request something? I don't think it is presumptuous of me. Maybe it is.

Could I sign for my rights for these pictures, and then let you have the pictures?

I am afraid that they may get lost.

The CHAIRMAN. I think, Mrs. Oswald, if you have any doubt us to whether a misuse will be made of your papers, or if they are as valuable, moneywise, to you as you think they are, then I would suggest to you that you retain them yourself. We, of course, would be interested to see them, and they might be helpful--I don't know, because I don't know what you have there, or what context the pictures will be in.

But as your lawyer has told you, you are not under subpena here, you appeared voluntarily because you requested to testify before us. Those documents are not under subpena. They belong to you. They are in your possession. I have not seen them. You are at liberty to use them in your testimony or not, as you please.

But if you do, the Commission cannot put any limitations on the use that it will make of them.

Mrs. OSWALD. Even though you have stated, Chief Justice Warren, just now, that you do not know if they are valuable to the Commission--and yet I have information from Mr. Jenner that they are valuable to the Commission, because they pertain to Lee's life at age 13 to age 16.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes, I say they might be. I don't know. I have never seen them.

But the choice is with you, Mrs. Oswald. You may do just as you please. If you wish to testify concerning them, and put them in the hands of the Commission, you may do so.

But the Commission cannot limit itself in the use of its testimony.

Mrs. OSWALD. I want the Commission to have this.

Moneywise, it is more important for the Commission to know this boy's life and my life--but also I need to protect myself financially, because I am a widow, and do not have the money. And this will mean--these are valuable pictures.

I am not questioning the integrity of this Commission or the loyalty. What I am questioning is that possibly they may get lost or someone may somehow or other get ahold of these pictures and exploit them, and get money for them, which has happened to some other pictures already, sir, and then----

The CHAIRMAN. Not those that you have given to the Commission?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir--but with another----

The CHAIRMAN. Well, I think, Mrs. Oswald, it would serve no purpose for us to debate the matter. I have tried to tell you very frankly, and your lawyer has told you very frankly and correctly, that you have a free choice to do just as you please. And we will abide by that choice that you may make.

Mrs. OSWALD. May I confer with my lawyer for about 10 minutes?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes. We will take a recess, and you may talk to him.

(Brief recess.)

The CHAIRMAN. Come to order, please.

Mrs. OSWALD. Last night, Mr. Rankin, I read Lee working at one place after Tujaque. I do not know the name, sir. I think he worked there just a few days. He had the keys to the office. And, as I returned home from work one day, another young man was at the apartment, the door of the apartment, and said that Lee was discharged, and that Lee had the keys to the office, and just then Lee walked up and gave this young man the keys.

Now, I do not know the name of the place. And I believe he just worked there, sir, a few days.

I read that afterwards.

If you will refresh me, I will give you any information I have. But it is hard for me to think of everything.

I believe we have cleared up the business today that we have missed.

I have decided--and maybe I am wrong, because to me money is only good as to its use. However, there have been so many things since the assassination that has not been in my favor, I believe that I am going to keep my personal pictures.

The CHAIRMAN. You may do so.

Mrs. OSWALD. If at any time in the future that you would like to have these pictures, I will be more than happy to have copies made and give them to the Commission.

There is another matter, Mr. Rankin, that is very important, that you asked me--Governor Connally's letter.

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Mrs. OSWALD. I had read this at the press conference. A letter from Lee Harvey Oswald to John Connally, Secretary of the Navy. This is just written from the newspaper article.

"I have been in the Soviet Union with the full sanction of the U.S. Embassy in Moscow." He asked the Navy Department to take the necessary steps to repair the damage to me and my family. "I shall employ all means to right the gross mistakes or injustices to a bona fide U.S. citizen, an ex-serviceman."

Now, I do not consider this a threat, because I, myself, if I had a dishonorable discharge, and I was a good marine for 3 years, and I felt like it hurt my mother and my children, and my wife, I would make such a statement, because I am a very definite person, as you know by now. I have been testifying for 3 days. And my son is of the same nature. He loved the Marines, and as far as he was concerned, he served his country 3 years. And it was a stigma to me and his children, and he wanted to right the wrong.

So I do not consider this a threat.

He went to Austin. There was an article in the paper--trying to get this rectified, and the young lady gave a very nice report of Lee, said he was very polite.

This is not a threat.

This is just how Lee was tried immediately in a few hours time, newspaper talk, and so on and so forth.

I would state this emphatically more maybe than Lee did, if I had a dishonorable discharge, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever hear your son say anything against Governor Connally?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir.

But here is what I have written down. The day at Robert's house, when I came in from the country, I, myself, gave Lee the copy--we had many copies--you showed me the copy--I gave him the copy and told him--I had written him and told him about the dishonorable discharge, but I did not send any papers, because I didn't want the Russians to know.

But when I came, I had a scrapbook, and I gave him a copy, Mr. Rankin, of the reason for dishonorable discharge. He says "Don't worry about it, mother. I can fix that. It is no problem."

So then the boy tried to fix it. And this is not a threat. My son is of this disposition, and he felt like he was a good marine. That I know. I would do the same. And I will read it now to Governor Connally: "I shall employ all means to right the gross mistake done to my family and my now dead son."

I expect to write to anybody officially to rectify this mistake.

I have shown this publicly at press conferences, and so I will employ all means to rectify this mistake--the mother of Lee Harvey Oswald. I intended to do that. That is my life's work.

I have the name of the man I talked to.

Chief Justice Warren--I will start from Lee as baby, before I get to this.

Lee was born October 18, 1939, in New Orleans, La. His mother, Marguerite Claverie Oswald, his father's name was Robert Edward Lee, he was named after General Lee. The family's name is Harvey--his grandmother's name was Harvey. And so he was named Lee Harvey Oswald.

Lee was born 2 months after the death of his father, who died from a heart attack, coronary thrombosis.

Lee was a very happy baby.

I stayed home with the children as long as I could, because I believe that a mother should be home with her children.

I don't want to get into my story, though.

Lee had a normal life as far as I, his mother, is concerned. He had a bicycle, he had everything that other children had.

Lee has wisdom without education. From a very small child--I have said this before, sir, and I have publicly stated this in 1959--Lee seemed to know the answers to things without schooling. That type child, in a way, is bored with schooling, because he is a little advanced.

Lee used to climb on top of the roof with binoculars, looking at the stars. He was reading astrology. Lee knew about any and every animal there was. He studied animals. All of their feeding habits, sleeping habits. He could converse--and that is why he was at the Bronx Zoo when he was picked up for truancy--he loved animals.

Lee played Monopoly. Lee played chess. Lee had a stamp collection, and even wrote to other young men and exchanged stamps, sir.

And Lee read history books, books too deep for a child his age. At age 9 he was always instructed not to contact me at work unless it was an emergency, because my work came first--he called me at work and said, "Mother, Queen Elizabeth's baby has been born."

He broke the rule to let me know that Queen Elizabeth's baby had been born. Nine years old. That was important to him. He liked things of that sort.

He loved comics, read comic books. He loved television programs. But most of all he loved the news on radio and television. If he was in the midst of a story, a film--he would turn it off for news. That was important.

And I have stated in 1959, which is in print, that Lee loved maps. Lee would study maps, sir. And he could tell you the distance from here and there. And when he was home on leave, I was amazed. Something was said about an airplane trip. Immediately he knew how many miles in the air that that plane took.

Lee read very, very important things. And any and everything he could do.

Yet he played Monopoly, played baseball.

He belonged to the "Y." He used to go swimming. He would come by work with his head wet, and I would say, "Hurry home, honey, you are going to catch cold."

And I considered that, sir, a very normal life.

I am probably forgetting some things.

So then Robert joined the Marines in 1956--am I correct--that Robert joined the Marines?

No, Robert joined the Marines in 1952. We are now in Fort Worth, Tex., until 1952.

So then I decided, since I was working, I did not want Lee to be alone. Up until this time, sir, he had a brother. So I sold my home at 7400 Ewing Street, and went to New York City, not as a venture, but because my older son, John Edward Pic, lived in New York, and had lived in New York for years. He was in the Coast Guard, as a military man. He has now been in the service 14 years, and at that time it would have been approximately 8 or 9 years--I may be off because that is approximately. So he was stationed in New York. So I had no problem of selling my home and going there, thinking that John Edward would leave New York.

But the main thing was to be where I had family. And I moved to New York for that reason.

Mr. RANKIN. About what date was that?

Mrs. OSWALD. This was exactly August 1952, because I wanted to get there in time for Lee's schooling. And if I am not mistaken, Robert joined the Marines in July of 1952. And that was my reason for going.

I immediately enrolled Lee in a Lutheran school, because Lee was not confirmed--he was baptized in the Lutheran faith, but because of moving around--I had married Mr. Ekdahl in this period and so on, Lee was not confirmed.

I enrolled him in the Lutheran school which took him approximately an hour or longer by subway to get there. It was quite a distance. That is when we first arrived in New York.

I believe that Lee was in that school a very short time, 2 or 3 weeks, because at this time I was living in my daughter-in-law's home and son. And we were not welcome, sir. We were welcome for a few days. But then we were to get a place of our own--because her mother lived with her, and her mother had left to go visit a sister. So Lee and I could come to visit. But we were not going to live with John and his wife.

So we just stayed there a short time.

Mr. RANKIN. Was there any time that you recall that there was a threat of Lee Oswald against Mrs. Pic with a knife or anything like that?

Do you remember that?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I do. I am glad you said that.

My daughter-in-law was very upset. The very first time we went there--I stated before, and I am glad I said that--that we were not welcome. And immediately it was asked what did we plan to do, as soon as we put our foot in the house. And I had made it plain to John Edward that I was going to have a place of my own, that we were just coming there to get located.

My daughter-in-law resented the fact that her mother--this went on before I got there--that her mother had to leave the house and go visit a sister so I could come, John Edward's mother. I had never met my daughter-in-law. She didn't like me, and she didn't like Lee.

So she--what is the word to say--not picked on the child, but she showed her displeasure.

And she is a very--not, I would say so much an emotional person--but this girl is a New Yorker who was brought up in this particular neighborhood, which I believe is a poor section of New York.

The mother had lived in this home all her life. And this girl cursed like a trooper. She is--you cannot express it, Mr. Rankin--but not of a character of a high caliber.

At this particular time she had never been out of this neighborhood, or out of New York. And Lee loved the little baby. And he played with the baby and wanted to hold the baby and everything, which she objected.

We were not wanted, sir, from the very beginning. So there was, I think now--it was not a kitchen knife--it was a little pocket knife, a child's knife, that Lee had. So she hit Lee. So Lee had the knife--now, I remember this distinctly, because I remember how awful I thought Marjory was about this. Lee had the knife in his hand. He was whittling, because John Edward whittled ships and taught Lee to whittle ships. He puts them in the glass, you know. And he was whittling when this incident occurred. And that is what it occurred about, because there was scraps of the wood on the floor.

So when she attacked the child, he had the knife in hand. So she made the statement to my son that we had to leave, that Lee tried to use a knife on her.

Now, I say that is not true, gentlemen. You can be provoked into something. And because of the fact that he was whittling, and had the knife in his hand, they struggled.

He did not use the knife--he had an opportunity to use the knife.

But it wasn't a kitchen knife or a big knife. It was a little knife.

So I will explain it that way, sir.

So immediately then I started to look for a place.

I did find a place, I think, off the Concourse. I do not remember the street.

Mr. RANKIN. Was that in the Bronx?

Mrs. OSWALD. Off the Concourse, in the Bronx. And it was a basement apartment.

I had shipped some of my furniture. It was in a storehouse at this time. So I got it out and put it in this basement.

Lee had his own single bed. It was a one--one great big, big room. But we had the kitchen--regular New York type style--the kitchen and the bedroom and everything together, but large enough--a big one-room apartment. And there was a single bed that Lee slept on, and I slept on the studio couch.

Then Lee went to school.

Mr. RANKIN. Was that Public School 117?

Mrs. OSWALD. I have that information here.

Went to school in the neighborhood, Public School 117, which is a junior high school in the Bronx. It states here he attended 15 of 47 days. This is the place we were living that Lee was picked up by the truant officer in the Bronx Zoo.

I was informed of this at work, and I had to appear before a board, which I did.

Lee went back to school.

Then he was picked up again in the Bronx Zoo. And I had to appear before a board committee again.

Then the third time that Lee was picked up, we were--I never did get a subpena, but we were told that he had to appear at Children's Court. But I never--how I got the notice to appear at Children's Court--I am at a loss, sir.

But I did not contact at this time a lawyer or anything. I did not know. I did not think it was anything serious, because the Texas laws are not like the New York laws. In New York, if you are out of school one day you go to Children's Court. In Texas the children stay out of school for months at a time.

Lee had never done this. So I appeared with my son in court. There was a judge asked me if I want to be represented by court counsel. And I believe I said, yes, I believe I was represented by the court counsel at this particular time. And within a few minutes time--because there were hundreds of people sitting, waiting with their truant children, and it was just like this--you didn't take the time we are taking here, a half hour, to discuss the case. It was done immediately.

My child was taken from me in the courtroom.

Mr. RANKIN. Had he been out of school quite a bit?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. At this time, he had not been out of school quite a bit.

So then I was given a slip of paper--no, I am sorry. I was told where to go, where Lee was, which was another office.

They took Lee from me in the courtroom, two men, officers, presumably. Then I went into another office and here was Lee. Lee was wearing his brother's Marine ring, just an ornament ring. They gave me Lee's ring and the things he had in his pocket, and told me that Lee was going to be at this home, which I think the name was the Warwick Home for Boys. And gave me a slip of paper and told me when I could visit Lee.

And that was all I knew at this particular time.

The child was immediately taken, and I was told to visit the child.

Now, I believe it was--this home was in Brooklyn. I may have the name wrong. It was an old, old home in Brooklyn.

So I went to visit my son.

And I hope some day to rectify this, because I think conditions of this kind in our United States of America are deplorable. And I want that to go down in the record.

Mr. RANKIN. Did they tell you why he was taken to this home, your son?

Mrs. OSWALD. For truancy, yes, sir.

So I had to stand single file approximately a block and a half, sir, with Puerto Ricans and Negroes and everything, and people of my class, single file, until we got to the main part of this building, which had a wire, a very heavy wire, partition wire, a man sitting back of the desk, but a man in the front of the gate that let me in. I had packages of gum and some candy for my son. And I sat down there. And the gum wrappers were taken off the gum, and the candy wrappers were taken off.

And my pocketbook was emptied. Yes, sir, and I asked why. It was because the children in this home were such criminals, dope fiends, and had been in criminal offenses, that anybody entering this home had to be searched in case the parents were bringing cigarettes or narcotics or anything.

So that is why I was searched.

So I was escorted into a large room, where there were parents talking with their children.

And Lee came out. He started to cry. He said, "Mother, I want to get out of here. There are children in here who have killed people, and smoke. I want to get out."

So then I realized--I had not realized until I went there what kind of place we had my child in.

We don't have these kinds of places in Texas or New Orleans, sir.

Then I realized what a serious thing this was. And this is when I decided I needed an attorney.

But Lee, I think, was approximately in that home--I am not sure--5 or 6 weeks, which accounts for his truancy that the papers say that Lee was a truant, that he was out of school so long.

It is because he was in this home, sir. That accounts for a lot of the truancy.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you talk to him about his truancy, say anything to him about it, or ask him about it, how he happened to stay out of school?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I asked Lee.

Well, this comes in another part.

Mr. RANKIN. All right.

Mrs. OSWALD. So I left my son that day, and I think I visited him a couple of times after that. I am not quite sure.

But in the meantime, I engaged an attorney. I do not know the name of the attorney, and I wish I did.

When I told the attorney about Lee--and I have stated this at a press conference--he raised the roof, so as to say. He was indignant. I cannot quote his exact words. But what he said was that New York State picked up these boys and put them on a farm, and they pay these boys to work on this farm for the State of New York.

Now, I may not be saying this exactly. You may have the picture of the home.

But these boys work on the farm and are paid for it, I understand. That is all I can remember, sir, about this unpleasant thing, because I did not think it would ever come in my life, and after the time it happened I tried to put it out of my mind.

But now I am refreshed a little on that.

So Lee was in this home 5 or 6 weeks, I believe. You probably have the record.

So then we were asked to appear to court. I went into court with this attorney. And there, again, real fast we were in the courtroom and Lee was brought in, and Lee sat down by me. And I remember this distinctly, because Lee had ear trouble quite often. And I saw his ear running, and I said, "Lee, you are having an earache." And the judge heard me saying something to Lee.

He said, "What did you tell your boy, Mrs. Oswald?"

I said, "Judge, I asked him if he had an earache."

I didn't know they were going to give me the child then.

So the judge talked to Lee and asked Lee if he was going to be good, and go back to school. Lee answered, "Yes, sir." And he said to me, "Mrs. Oswald, I understand that you and your daughter-in-law do not get along." I said, "That is correct." And he suggested that Lee would be much better off back in the open wide spaces that he was used to instead of in New York, where we had no family then, because the daughter-in-law and son were not friendly with us. And this judge suggested that. And the judge gave me my son, right then and there, gentlemen.

I left the courtroom with my boy. He was given to me in my custody.

Now, that is all I know of the case. The particular case.

From there, we went into an office where there was a probation officer, Mr. John Carro. Mr. Carro talked with Lee and asked Lee if he was going to go back to school.

"Yes, sir."

He reprimanded him a little bit--maybe not that, but gave him a little talk. And he said, "Lee, you are to report to me once a week for probation."

I am going to stress this.

I have been in this Commission 3 days. And you know I am very definite. So I was very definite with Mr. Carro. I did not mince my words. I said, "Mr. Carro, my son is not reporting to you once a week. This is not a criminal offense. He was picked up for truancy, he has assured the judge, promised the judge that he would be back to school. He has promised you he would be back to school. Let's give this boy a chance, and let's see if he will go to school."

"And then, Mr. Carro, if he doesn't go to school, then you can have him report to you."

Mr. Carro didn't take that graciously, which is true. When you don't agree with anyone over you, then you are in the minority, and you just as well make up your mind right then and there, that is it.

So from that time on Mr. Carro pestered me and Lee. Mr. Carro would call me at work, sir, and say that he had gone by the school, and that they were having trouble with Lee. And I went to the school and talked to the principal and she said, "Mrs. Oswald, what happened while the probation officer was here--Lee moved the chair back, and it made a little noise."

And that is what Mr. Carro reported.

In plain words, gentlemen, Mr. Carro was indignant at my attitude, because he was an official.

Mr. RANKIN. What school was that?

Mrs. OSWALD. This was the first school, sir.

Then I moved. I am a little confused. Just a minute.

I took Lee out of the first school because the children knew that he had been in the home, and I thought he didn't stand a chance.

So I moved to help my child again.

And I personally went with Lee to the principal and told the principal--not in front of Lee--had a talk with her--that Lee had been in this home, and that if she could help him in any way, and knew of any friends, children his age that lived in the neighborhood where we lived, I would appreciate it. And she did help. There was a young lady in this building that we lived, in the Bronx--now we are living near the Bronx Zoo.

Mr. RANKIN. Is this the new school?

Mrs. OSWALD. This is the new school. And we are living near the Bronx Zoo, which is 100 and something street.

Mr. RANKIN. And this is Public School 44?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir--Public School 44. So I talked to the principal and told her about the trouble and asked if she could not help us.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, the place that he was committed to was--do you recall that was Berkshire Farms?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, because he was not committed to a farm, as far as I knew, sir. All I knew was that he was in this home in Brooklyn. He was never committed to a farm, as far as I know, sir. He was in this home all this time. And this is where I am assuming, because I knew nothing about this--the psychiatric treatment took place, and naturally that is why they would have him in this home to observe him.

And, by the way, I was called one day to go to the home and a young lady talked with me. And I sensed that she was questioning me for a reason, because I had been on my own all these years, and I am a business woman. So I remembered one distinct incident. She said, "Mrs. Oswald, how strong do you believe in education?"

And I said, "I believe strongly in education, but not to an extent that a mother should go out and work and deprive her children of a mother's home and love in order to make the extra money to give her children a college education," because I happen to know that a college education sometimes is not as important as wisdom. There are college graduates that do not know how to apply their ability. And so to me--I could never be home with my children. I had to work and leave my children--which was a very sore spot, let's say. I would have given the world if I could have been home and raised my children. And here are women, because of material things, and because they want to give their children a college education, deprive their children of this motherly love, that I myself was deprived of because of an unfortunate affair.

So to get education to that extent, no, sir, I do not approve of it. I think it is more important for children to come home and have someone in that home when they come home from school, and do without a college education. I am strongly for that, because of my experience.

Mr. RANKIN. Was Lee Oswald a good student?

Mrs. OSWALD. I have his records from all the schools in New Orleans, sir. But we are not through with New York--that will show he passed satisfactory grades.

Mr. RANKIN. How about New York? Was he a good student there?

Mrs. OSWALD. I think he was an average student. Yes.

Now, I personally brought Lee to the school and talked to some of the teachers. And they told me that Lee was a bright boy, but that he was bored with school--there was just something there. Lee was in a sense bored with school in this sense--that Lee was an overly bright boy, studious boy, and he should have been placed in a school that we have now, I understand, for special children of this sort.

Mr. RANKIN. But his grades were not too good during this period?

Mrs. OSWALD. They were passing grades, I would say. Now, that is what I know about the New York situation.

Now, it has come out, gentlemen, that he had had psychiatric treatment there. I did not know of any psychiatric treatment there. But now I am assuming naturally he did have it then. There is a report on it.

I wish to say this. I am just a practical nurse. I became a nurse because of my experiences, and I wanted to devote my life to humanity, which I have stated before. But I do know this. I work in hospitals, rest homes, private homes, and all of our hospitals, and all of our rest homes, and all of our institutions are understaffed.

Now, I think you will agree there. We are all understaffed. Every one I have ever been in. So I will say if Lee had psychiatric treatment in this home, there are hundreds and hundreds of children, he could not have had a complete psychiatric examination. We do not know. I do not know if he had a complete. But I will say that according to other institutions, that this institution was also understaffed.

I am going to make one remark to Mr. Jack Ruby. He has to have five psychiatrists. Now, here is one little psychiatric examination on a 13-year-old boy.

So, then we will go to Lee's schooling in New Orleans.

Mr. RANKIN. Before you leave New York, did you ever tell anybody that you took Lee Oswald to New York so he could have mental tests at the Jacobi Hospital?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, never. My child was a normal child--and while in New York. I explained to you he had a dog with puppies. The school teachers talked well about him. He had a bicycle. There was nothing abnormal about Lee Oswald.

It has been stated also I was offered psychiatric treatment which is incorrect. This Mr. Carro I understand is a very big man. He may be supplying the files with all of this. But, sir, it is untrue.

Mr. RANKIN. Then you went to New Orleans after that?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. Then they assigned a big brother to Lee. This is important to the story.

So this man came out to the apartment on several occasions and saw the type person I was and my son was. And he did not see anything wrong with the child. Evidently not. Because he suggested that it might be a good idea--I had told him the way Mr. Carro was doing. Mr. Carro was pestering me, sir, at work, with just little insignificant reports that I would call the school and the principal would assure me everything was all right.

So he thought that it would be better if I would take the child away. And I didn't know I could do that. I didn't know exactly the charge.

So, I said, "Is it all right? They won't arrest us and bring us back?"

He said, "No, there is no extraditing"--that was his words.

So, I wrote Mr. Carro a letter explaining that I was taking--Lee and I were going to New Orleans, and Lee had cousins his age in New Orleans, and I thought the child would be better off amongst his own family. And the judge had recommended that if we could possibly leave New York that it would be better for Lee. And I wrote Mr. Carro the letter, sir. I did not flee New York. I had the decency to write him a letter. And the Big Brother is the one that recommended this.

Now, that is what I know of the New York.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember the name of the Big Brother?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not know the name of the Big Brother. But from the newspaper accounts, they know the name. The Big Brother stated how clean the apartment was, and how nice we were.

Mr. RANKIN. And then you went to New Orleans, did you?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. Then we went to New Orleans. And we stayed at my sister's house, 757 French Street, and immediately Lee enrolled in--let's get back to this. This is in Fort Worth, Tex. Lee attended the Ridglea West School and graduated--was promoted to junior high in 1952. In 1952 is when we went to New York. Now, we are in New Orleans.

Lee was immediately enrolled in Beauregard School in New Orleans, La., upon arriving in New Orleans. And here is his certificate of promotion to high school. And they have stated that his attendance was very good. He just missed 9 days, I think, out of the whole term, which is considered very good.

Mr. RANKIN. How was he as a student in New Orleans?

Mrs. OSWALD. C grades. He was promoted, or he wouldn't have C grades. So that is two certificates there.

Then I have another certificate. He went to--no, I would not have the certain, and then from the promotion he was promoted to the Warren Easton High School. And that is the school that Lee wrote the note--am I correct?

Mr. RANKIN. Yes. It is already in evidence. He wrote and said you were going to San Diego, and it was not your note at all. He signed your name.

Mrs. OSWALD. That is right. And then, as you know, Robert was discharged from the Marines, and Robert did not want to live in New Orleans. So there again--so we could be a family--and this young boy, who was the youngest, could be with a brother. I moved back to Fort Worth, sir, because Robert was in Fort Worth so we could be a family again. However, I moved in July, and Lee joined the Marines in October. So we were just there a few months.

Lee attended Arlington High School there. And when we came back to Fort Worth, Tex., the school did not know what to do with Lee. Lee, I think, was approximately 2 weeks entering the school. He was too far advanced from the New Orleans and New York schools, and not advanced enough--let's see if I can explain this right--according to his age. He was too old to be in the junior, or vice versa. But I do know, and I have witnesses to this, that Lee could not immediately enter school. They had to have a conference, a board conference, because of Lee's curriculum from school. They didn't know which school to place him in.

Mr. RANKIN. How did he get along with you? Did you get along well together?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Lee was a very quiet and studious boy. None of my children gave me any trouble, thank God. We have no police record, sir, or anything like that. And the children were always more or less home. And particularly Lee. Lee would go to the movies, and things like that. He was a normal boy. But when he was home, he was most happy. And I am of this disposition.

He could keep himself occupied--reading and when he watched a football game on television, he would have the score pad, and things of that sort. And so he was quite happy in his own way.

Now, here is something very important.

While in New Orleans, in order to go to Arlington Heights school, which is one of the ritziest schools in New Orleans, all the wealthy people go there, and we happened to live in the vicinity--Lee wanted a two-wheel bicycle, sir, and I bought him one. So when school opened, Lee went to school on a two-wheel bicycle. Can you picture this. A 16-1/2-year-old boy going to school on a bicycle, when all the other children had their own cars? Just picture this. My children never did want anything, and particularly Lee.

Mr. RANKIN. How did he get along with his brothers?

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, now, at this time he didn't know too much about his brothers. John Edward had been in the service since age 17, so it has been a number of years, other than leaves. And Robert had just finished his 3-year hitch. So you see the brothers have had nothing to do with Lee since age 13 actually--otherwise than visits. Because when Robert came back, then Lee joined the Marines.

Now, this is the U.S. Marine Corps acceptance. And it says "I am very pleased to notify you that your son, Lee Harvey Oswald, has successfully passed the mental, moral, and physical examinations," and so forth. My son was a marine. And I understand a very important marine.

He was in electronics. I have read--one of the marines that was with him said when he defected to Russia they had to change the system. He must have had a real responsible position, if Lee defected to Russia, and all the systems had to be changed. I don't know if this is correct. But this man made the statement, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he have any courts-martial that you knew about while he was in the Marines?

Mrs. OSWALD. I did not know until what came out in the paper. And I have discussed that with several high officials, marines, and so on and so forth. A lot of men, they tell me, carry a gun. And if you did curse an officer, that is done sometimes, too--that is not anything criminal. I mean we all get provoked at some particular time. I am not taking up for the boy. I don't know what happened. But I know I myself would be guilty of that, if someone pushed me, that I may curse him. And I am sure it is done quite often. And I understand that Lee slashed his wrist. I find that from the paper.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you know anything about that? How that happened?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir--otherwise than what I know in the paper. I do not know, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. What about a man that was killed, that was one of his buddies in the Marines?

Did you ever know anything about that?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. This is the first time I have heard about that. I haven't even read that in the paper. I did not know about that. If I can help you in any way--his picture in the Marines--there are names of the men on the back. I do not know what they mean. But the names of the men are on the back of picture, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. When was it that he slashed his wrist--in the Marine Corps?

Mrs. OSWALD. I understand when he was in Moscow--is that correct? I do not know otherwise from what I read in the paper. These things, how could I know.

Representative FORD. May I see that picture?

Mr. RANKIN. In the Soviet Union?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. And that is why, too, it has been stated that he was possibly an agent, to show, when the Russians would not give him citizenship, he slashed his wrist, to show that he did not want to return back to the United States, and forced the Russians to keep him there. That has been stated.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever know that he shot himself while he was in the Marines?

Mrs. OSWALD. I read that in the paper.

Mr. RANKIN. He never told you that?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. And I read in the paper that it could have been an accident.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you know anything about how good a shot he was? Did he ever tell you that?

Mrs. OSWALD. Lee came home with a trophy, but it is a Marine trophy--may I have that please, I need a number. It is not on this. We have another picture. But it had Lee Harvey Oswald. But it was given not to him, but to the platoon. And he was very, very proud of it. Lee was very proud of his Marine hitch, because every time he came on leave, that is all he talked about. That I know. And I am the only one that knows this.

Mr. RANKIN. Was that trophy with regard to marksmanship?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Now, Marina would have that. I gave that to Lee and Marina when they returned from Russia, and the Marine book that Lee was so proud of, and the baby book that I had all these years. And I think it was in regard to marksmanship.

Now, I have Lee's--they are copying all of this, Mr. Doyle--Lee's shooting record. I have that, sir. I have anything you want. It was left in his sea bag. And all of this was left in Lee's sea bag.

This is a picture of Lee with his marines, and, it is a special, I think he was doing special work there. I am not familiar--I wasn't told that. But it is different than the other picture. Lee went to many, many a school, gentlemen. He went to the Marine Air Force Base in Biloxi, Mississippi, to schooling. He went to Jacksonville and some others. I remarked, "Your brothers were not sent from here to there like you were." Lee was in Japan, Lee was in Corregidor, Lee was in the Philippines, and Lee was in Formosa. That has not been publicly stated.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know what schooling he had at these various places?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. I would think that it was special schooling.

Mr. RANKIN. He never told you?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. But the other brothers didn't have that type schooling. And I even remarked about it.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever hear your son say anything for or against President Kennedy?

Mrs. OSWALD. While Marina and Lee were in my home that month, and I had a television----

Mr. RANKIN. About what time was that?

Mrs. OSWALD. This was July, 1962--when they stayed the month with me. Yes, they were delighted with President Kennedy, both.

Mr. RANKIN. What did they say about him?

Mrs. OSWALD. Nothing political--just "Like President Kennedy." He was telling Marina about President Kennedy. "I like President Kennedy"--"I like, too."

My son has never said anything to me politically about anyone. My son loved the Marines, and loved his work and has never, never said anything against--the only time I questioned my son was ask him why he decided to come home, and he said, "Not even Marina knows that."

That was the one question I wanted to know, because of the many things that they sent me from Russia, as I have previously stated. That was the only thing. So that satisfied me.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you know anything about his guns--what guns he had?

Mrs. OSWALD. Oh, this is very important, and I am glad you brought this up. This is the part in New Orleans that I forgot about.

While Lee was working for Tujague & Co. he started to have a bank account, and it was in a Homestead. I do not know the name, but it was on Canal Street, 900 or 100 block of Canal Street, because it was even with Exchange Place. And he started to save his money. The purpose of saving his money was to go on a tour with a young group. He was working for a steamship place as a mess engineer so he was going around to all of these seagoing trips. And I saw the brochure. It was sponsored by very prominent people. There was nothing wrong with it. If he wanted to go, that was all right--could go on this. So he started to save his money to go. However, this was in January--you want the date?

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Mrs. OSWALD. Are we in 1955 in New Orleans? Yes. No, 1956 this would be. January, 1956--Lee took his money out of the Homestead, which was approximately $150, or something like that. And Lee Harvey Oswald bought an electric football machine--cost approximately $10. He bought a bow and arrow set--maybe about $6 or $7. And he bought a gun. Now, I don't know about guns. I was going to say BB gun, but I will not say it was a BB gun--but Robert Oswald will know--or a rifle. But it was not an expensive gun. He was just 16 1/2 years old. And I am of the opinion if he bought a real gun, I would have had to sign or something. I may be wrong. But anyhow it was a gun to go squirrel hunting or rabbit hunting. I will identify it like that. And then we can go into it further.

And he paid $35 on a coat for me. And the very first job that--the very first pay that Lee got from this job from Tujague sir, he came home with a bird cage on a stand that had a planter. It had the ivy in the planter, it had the parakeet, and it had a complete set of food for the parakeet. His very first pay. And then he paid his room and board. I kept this bird cage--the stand was collapsible--all these years, in the back of my car, and put it up, no matter where I was on a case, and had the bird up until about 2 years ago--no, I had the bird, and gave it to Lee when they came back from Russia. What has become of it I do not know. I gave the bird and bird cage to Lee and Marina when they came back from Russia. I am trying to give you the picture of this boy. Would you ask me some more questions, please? It is awful hard for me to remember everything.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember any other guns he had?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. This is the only gun that I have known Lee to have.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, about Officer Tippit.

Mrs. OSWALD. Let me finish about Robert and his gun. This is important to you.

When we came to New Orleans, I worked at Washer Bros., in New Orleans--transferred from--Goldrings in New Orleans is Washer Bros. in Fort Worth, Tex. So I worked at Washer Bros. Lee came into the place I worked one day with the gun and wanted me to sign a paper so he could sell the gun. Well, I was indignant that he came where I was working with a gun. I said, "Lee, we will talk about it later." And several of the salesladies thought that I brushed him off real fast. Well, now, Robert bought that gun from Lee, and gave Lee $10 for the gun. It was 3 months we were living in New Orleans. So Robert gave Lee $10 for the gun. And Robert used to go hunting with it at his mother-in-law's house. I have stated they live in the country and they go rabbit and squirrel hunting. Robert would know about the gun, the type gun and everything. I do not know.

Mr. RANKIN. You have told us all you know about the gun?

Mrs. OSWALD. That is all I know about the gun. And Robert bought the gun from Lee, gave him $10.

Mr. RANKIN. You haven't told us whether you thought your son killed Officer Tippit.

Mrs. OSWALD. I strictly do not believe that Lee killed Officer Tippit.

Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us why?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I am sorry to have to elaborate so, but this, as you know, is very important.

Mr. Lane and myself are investigating, with hundreds of investigators. I have over 1,500 letters. We have reporters and people investigating for us, that are not satisfied with the whole case. And Mr. Lane has a lot of affidavits. I cannot say what Mr. Lane has. But he is doing a very good job about this. And we have come to the conclusion that Lee is not guilty of Officer Tippit.

Now, I gave you a picture yesterday--you might have it there, I don't know, Mr. Rankin--that could possibly be Marina and the child. We have found out that the Book Depository Building--Mr. Lane has this information--it is owned by the city of Dallas--I should not go into that, I don't know. He has all of this information. Or it is a lease. It is government-owned some way or other. I should not say. Mr. Lane has all of this. We have been investigating night and day.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, we have the picture, Mrs. Oswald.

Mrs. OSWALD. All right. On the picture, then--and I have talked to Mr. Doyle about this--you might think I am crazy to say so. The first thing I saw in this picture--this picture was sent to me by a woman with a letter telling me to look at the picture carefully. I did not read the letter. I did not want her opinion, or other people's opinion about this picture. We have a lot of comments about this picture. I immediately looked at the picture when I opened it. The first thing I saw was my son Lee and Marina and the child. Then when I called this woman long distance. I said, "You want to know what I saw in the picture?" and I told her. She says, "No, that is not what I see."

Representative FORD. Did you say your first reaction was that you saw Lee, Marina and the child?

Mrs. OSWALD. That was my first reaction. And, if I am correct--I don't say I am correct--but if I am correct, this would be the solution. Lee was escorted out of the building. Kennedy is shot now--I will have to show you the picture. He has passed the window where Lee's rifle is supposed to be. And he is shot in the neck. He has passed this particular part. He is shot in the neck. And then this man that I think is Lee--and I wish I could swear to it, but I am fully convinced--is being escorted out of the building and could be escorted--I am speculating, sir--I have no proof of this. I wish I did. Could be escorted out of the building by a policeman.

Mr. RANKIN. Is the picture you are looking at the one you referred to?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, it is--Exhibit 203.

Mr. RANKIN. That is Exhibit 203?

Mrs. OSWALD. Now, this is who I think Lee is.

Mr. RANKIN. That is----

Mrs. OSWALD. There is no face.

Mr. RANKIN. That is the man right in the doorway?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. This is Lee's build and everything. The first thing I saw.

Now, they think this is Lee.

No, sir, I do not.

Everybody thinks this is Lee.

Mr. RANKIN. When you say they think--it is the man leaning against the side of the doorway, is that right?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. That is the picture that everybody is convinced is Lee.

Mr. RANKIN. And you think it is the one next to him that doesn't show any face? It shows the arms over the head?

Mrs. OSWALD. He has his arms up in the air.

Now, that is what I saw immediately--against everybody else seeing it. And this woman and child could possibly be Marina.

Now, to explain this--whether I thought Lee shot Officer Tippit or not--Lee could be escorted out of this building with a gun in his back possibly. I am just speculating, sir. But there is a lot of speculation in this case all over the world. From foreign countries I have letters. And that is how he got out of the building. And this same officer could have been killed, because he was involved in this, and then he could have been killed, to be kept quiet. There is a possibility of this, gentlemen.

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, will you take this blue pencil and carefully mark on Exhibit 203?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't mean to be telling this Commission what to do. And I cannot do it. But I would like to have this picture printed. And I am willing--I have some few dollars--I have been selling some pictures. I am willing to give a reward of $1,000 if this picture can be printed and these people come--it would have to be Secret Service, FBI, and state their names.

I would like to have the people here--let us find out who those people are.

Mr. RANKIN. Will you mark the letter "A" above the part that you have circled on Exhibit 203, that you say are Marina and the little girl?

Mrs. OSWALD. All right.

Mr. RANKIN. And "B" over what you circled as being your idea of Lee Oswald being there.

Mrs. OSWALD. Now, that is what I saw, and nobody else has seen this. They see the man next to him.

Would you want me to put the man next to it that they see as Lee? He has the same clothes on as Lee.

Mr. RANKIN. Well--you can testify the man that other people said was Lee Oswald, that you pointed to before on Exhibit 203, would be the one in between, would that be right?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. He has the same clothes as Lee.

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, we offer in evidence Exhibit 203 as now marked with the identification.

(The document referred to was received, as indicated, as Commission Exhibit No. 203.)

Mr. RANKIN. Do you have any other reasons why you think that Officer Tippit was not killed by your son Lee Oswald?

Mrs. OSWALD. I do not.

But, gentlemen, Mr. Mark Lane has affidavits. And we are investigating this--if you will have his testimony. He has pertinent information to this. I intend, when I finish here--I am going to be very quiet about what happened here, with no comments. But when I finish here, I am going on speaking tours. I am going to continue the investigation of the shooting. This is for you. But I intend to continue as long as this Commission is in session, to investigate, like we have been doing, we have come up with some very----

The CHAIRMAN. Some very what?

Mrs. OSWALD. Very important factors in this case.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, I thought that is what you were here to tell us about.

Mrs. OSWALD. I am not the investigator. Mr. Lane is the investigator. Mr. Lane is my son's attorney, representing my son. And he is investigating the death of President Kennedy and the consequent murder of my son.

And he is making tours. And we have these reporters. And we have people giving us their opinions. We have many, many letters from expert riflemen. And I have in my possession--they also write to me--that have gone through this particular instance, and say it cannot possibly be done in that length of time and so on and so forth. We have a lot of expert opinions.

Mr. RANKIN. Are you willing to give those to the Commission?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, we want to. This is what I say is our American way of life. This boy was shot down handcuffed, within a few hours time, without trial or jury or counsel, even. He did not have a right to defend himself. So Mr. Lane immediately started to defend this boy. And people have come to our rescue.

When I read Mr. Lane's brief, and I realized the truth of some of the statements he said, I contacted Mr. Lane, as you know, and we tried to come before the Commission.

So from now on, when I am through with this Commission, I am going to work with Mr. Lane in my own way--I am booked in New York on a tour next week. And I am going to talk only about the investigation.

We have help, sir. We have Mr. Laurence Ross, who is in New Zealand, who writes articles--very good. And Captain Wooster, is an expert rifleman of New Zealand. He does this all the time. He goes all over.

I am not saying it correctly.

But he is an expert. And he said that he himself could hardly do it. And he practices all the time. That is his--that is what he does for a living. He is an expert.

And we have many, many such letters. I have 1,500 letters, sir. Mr. Doyle has seen my letters and read a few.

We have attorneys writing us. We have ministers. We have all types of people that are not satisfied with this boy being charged with the assassination of President Kennedy. And, of course, not satisfied with the way he was shot down without trial. And we are going to continue to investigate and fight this in our own way, when I leave the Commission, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you have an agent for this tour, lecture tour you are making?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not. Mr. Lane has--well, I don't say booked me, because that would not be the word. But I am supposed to appear Monday at Town Hall in New York--no, Tuesday, the 18th. It is going to be a forum. There are three very prominent men going to be on the panel. And we are going to ask questions and talk. We will have our public support by bringing these matters before the public, because we are convinced--and there are millions of other people convinced, also--that this is not as plain as it seems to be, that there is more to it. And they are not satisfied.

We are going to continue to investigate, with the help of the public.

The CHAIRMAN. Are you to be compensated for these lectures?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. My trip is being paid to New York. And I am to live in a home with a family.

As far as that, I know nothing else about this.

The CHAIRMAN. Who does know the details of it?

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, now, Mr. Lane would know the details. And maybe you think I am being a very foolish woman. But here. When I read--because I have been very cautious so let's say now I am not being cautious. But here is why. When I read Mr. Lane's brief--and I don't know, gentlemen, if you have read it--but I believe it would be pertinent to this Commission to get a copy. It is written in the Guardian--two or three briefs. And I was convinced this man had some pertinent ideas about it. And when I engaged Mr. Lane, he said, "Mrs. Oswald, I will tell you about myself."

I said, "I do not want to hear. As far as I am concerned, you could be a Communist. But to me a Communist is a human being. That is just his way of life."

We are Americans. We have Japanese people. That is their way of life. A Communist, as long as he is not hurting our Government, that is his right to be a Communist. That is his way of life.

I did not want to know anything about Mr. Lane, because I knew Mr. Lane wrote sensible things, that Mr. Lane was interested. And what he wrote made sense. And that is all I am interested in, sir.

If Mr. Lane is getting money, and I am appearing, that is just fine. I am not interested. If I can get before the public and through Mr. Lane doing it, I want to get before that public and state my American way of life and try to prove my son is innocent.

The main part of this is to try to prove Lee Harvey Oswald innocent.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well.

Mr. RANKIN. You said during your testimony that an agent showed you a picture at the Six Flags Inn. Do you remember that?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, and I am glad you brought that up, because I have notes on this, too. I have something important to say about that.

Mr. RANKIN. I will ask the reporter to mark this.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 237 for identification.)

Mrs. OSWALD. Before I see a picture, see--if it was in a square, cupped in a hand, I believe it would be better for me for identification. That is the way I saw it. It was cupped in his hand.

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, all I have is Exhibit 237, in the shape it is in. And I will hand it to you and ask you if you recall that as being the picture that was shown to you.

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. This is not the picture shown me. The picture that was shown me was a full face and just shoulders. This is not the picture.

This picture was about this size, very glossy black and white, with a big face and shoulders. I have background here, a lot of white. But this took the whole picture--the face and shoulders. And this door was just ajar. And this man had this picture--and the two corners were cut.

Mr. RANKIN. About what size is the picture you are looking at?

Mrs. OSWALD. That is about three by four--approximately three by four, cupped in this man's hand, and the two corners were cut. The two top corners. And a very glossy picture, black and white, with a big face and shoulders. This is the picture shown me, sir.

Now, at Six Flags Inn, about 3 days later, when I entered the room, on the table were a lot of newspapers. I walked into the room in the presence of my son, and all of the agents. As I stated before, Marina and I knew nothing of what went on. We did not know how Lee was shot or anything, because we did not sit down and watch television.

Mr. RANKIN. What son are you talking about?

Mrs. OSWALD. Robert. So this is approximately the Wednesday, the 25th--no--Sunday was the 24th. About the 26th--it was a few days after Lee was shot, a couple of days. So I walked into the room, and I picked this paper up and turned it over, and I exclaimed, "This is the picture of the man that the FBI agent showed me."

And one of the agents said, "Mrs. Oswald, that is the man that shot your son."

Believe me, gentlemen, I didn't even ask his name. And nothing more was said.

Now, that is very unusual.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, the picture that you are talking about that you picked up, was a picture in the newspaper?

Mrs. OSWALD. In the newspaper. The bottom part of the newspaper. I can see that like I can see the picture. I had never seen the picture before.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you later learn whose picture that was?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, when I returned to my home in Fort Worth, Tex., about a week later, Mr. Blair Justice, of the Star Telegram, brought me all the papers, that was the next time I saw the pictures and knew it was Mr. Ruby. And it was a bottom page, and it was this picture shown me.

Now, this is what I want to know.

Mr. RANKIN. Tell us who was there when you said that, about the picture in the paper?

Mrs. OSWALD. Mr. Mike Howard, Mr. Garry Seals--well, all of the agents there. The room was full. And Robert Oswald was there. The room was full.

Mr. RANKIN. Was Marina there?

Mrs. OSWALD. Marina was in the bedroom. Marina and I stayed in the bedroom with the children. We could get snatches of the television and so on. The children had diarrhea and so on. We were busy.

As I picked the paper up and turned it over, it was on the back. This picture I saw, the same picture.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether your son Lee Oswald knew Jack Ruby?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, I have no way of knowing that. I just hope that he did, if I am right. If Lee is an agent, I hope he knew Jack Ruby.

Representative FORD. When you made that statement, after looking at the newspaper, did you say it loudly enough for people in the room to hear it?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, because they answered me. They said, "That is the picture of the man that shot your son."

But nothing has been said since that. That is the part that I question all about this.

And then I am not asked to be subpenaed at Jack Ruby's trial or anything.

The FBI says yes, they showed me a picture, but that wasn't a picture of Jack Ruby, not even giving me a chance.

I don't understand. Something is not according to Hoyle. I keep telling you gentlemen.

Now, I can identify this picture, I believe, out of a hundred pictures.

It was a black and white glossy picture of a big face and shoulders. And why I express it--he had it cupped in his hand, and he poked his arm and his hand with my bifocals, and all I could see was the picture and the hand. I didn't even see Mr. Odum so much. That was that hand poked in front of me. I am positive of this. Yet I am not asked any more about the picture. They state, yes, they showed me a picture, but not this picture. I am positive, gentlemen.

Mr. RANKIN. I will ask you about a list of names and see if you know any of them, or if your son, Lee Oswald, knew any of them, to your knowledge.

Mrs. OSWALD. I will be happy to answer.

Mr. RANKIN. Karen Bennett, do you know that?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I have inquired about this Karen Bennett.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you know her?

Mrs. OSWALD. I do not know whether I knew her or not. I have asked several people to investigate this for me.

Upon returning from the country on an OB case. I went to work for Royal Clothiers, in Fort Worth, Tex., as an outside sales lady. In OB you have to wait for the babies--and I needed to live. There was a young lady there by the name of Carol, I called her. It could be Karen. Looked very much like the young lady I saw on the television. That is the first time I connected the two. Her father was one of the biggest gangsters in Fort Worth, Tex. And he himself was killed by the gangland of Fort Worth, Tex.

Why I know that--the manager of this Royal Clothiers had remarked who Karen's father was, and I said to him, "I don't appreciate your broadcasting that. I think what her father did has nothing to do with the girl. She is working. Give her a chance to her own life."

I am always standing up and getting myself in trouble. I want you to know that. Maybe I am not liked. But if that makes not being liked, I will continue not being liked, sir.

So this is when I first started to work. However, I found out that the young lady also had another job at night, which is all right. She was working as a barmaid in a tavern on Hemphill Street, in Fort Worth, Tex., and she had two small children, and so if she worked at the Royal Clothiers during the day, it was necessary that she work at this saloon, or whatever you want to call it at night.

Mr. RANKIN. Was she married?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, she was not married. That maybe is what she had to do to support her children. And I understand, because I was left alone.

But--she and I became involved in this way. In the front of the store was a showcase with cheap jewelry. This is a credit place, rings, diamond rings, and bracelets. And Carol had the key to this case, and so did I. And there was some talk about a ring or something missing. I realized right then and there I could not put myself in a position of things being stolen, because here was a girl who they said her father was a gangster, and she was working in a bar. And my son was a known defector. So I quit that job.

Now, on television for the Ruby trial here comes the girl. I thought I recognized this girl. The name is Karen Bennett. And I called her Carol, it could be Karen Bennett. I didn't have much to do with the girl. So I immediately told this story to Mr. Jack Langueth of the New York Times, and I told also to another Star Telegram reporter, Mr. John McConnoch, because I wanted them to investigate.

But I have not heard anything about it.

Mr. RANKIN. How about Bruce Carlin?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. You don't know whether your son knew him?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. I would not know anybody that my son knew. That I am positive--because he never did tell me any of this. But continue.

Mr. RANKIN. Robert Kermit Patterson, also known as Bobby Patterson?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Donald C. Stuart?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Charles Arndt?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. James A. Jackson?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, you know, a few of those names sound to me like they might be on the back of both of these pictures. I am not sure.

Mr. RANKIN. They are supposed to be associates or friends or people that Mr. Ruby knew and associated with closely.

Stanley or Katya Skotnicki?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Larry Crafard, or Crawford?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember that name?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. I was trying to connect the name with a couple.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether he ever spent any time in the Silver Spur?

Mrs. OSWALD. If Lee ever did?

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Mrs. OSWALD. I have had no knowledge of Lee for 1 year. None whatsoever.

Mr. RANKIN. And before that do you know whether he spent any time in the Silver Spur in Dallas?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir.

And before that, as to what I do know, that Lee did not drink and Lee did not smoke, and Lee wasn't the type--not that he did not maybe go into saloons--but from what I know of him, he did not go into places like that of his own. If he was working he might have gone into these places.

Mr. RANKIN. These are the nightclubs Jack Ruby was associated with. You recognize that?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, I don't.

Mr. RANKIN. And the Vegas Club was another one. Do you know whether he spent time there?

Mrs. OSWALD. I would have no way of knowing.

Mr. RANKIN. And the Sovereign Club?

Mrs. OSWALD. I have no way of knowing. I am going to say, again, Mr. Lane would have ways of knowing about all these clubs and everything, because that is his part of our investigation. I would like to get back to Patrolman Tippit.

Mr. RANKIN. All right. I just want to try to cover this book about Lee Oswald's marksmanship. That has been marked Exhibit 238.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 238, for identification.)

Mr. RANKIN. It is a book that you brought here.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, it was left in his sea bag, when he came home from the Marine Corps.

Mr. RANKIN. And that reads, "U.S. Marine Corps Score Book, Oswald, L. H."

Mrs. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. RANKIN. That is your son's?

Mrs. OSWALD. That is correct. That is his platoon, 2060, that is the one he got the trophy with.

Mr. RANKIN. Were the various marks in that book in pencil that you see there in the book when you first found it?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I have not touched the book.

Mr. RANKIN. Is it in the same condition?

Mrs. OSWALD. That is the same condition that it was in his sea bag.

Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 238, and ask leave to substitute a copy.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be introduced.

(The document heretofore marked as Commission Exhibit No. 238 was received in evidence.)

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Reporter, will you mark this 239?

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 239 for identification and received in evidence.)

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald. I will ask you to glance through Exhibit 239 and state whether or not that appears to be photostatic copy of----

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, that is the photostatic copy----

Mr. RANKIN. Of Exhibit 238?

Mrs. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. RANKIN. And you will see it has the same markings.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct.

Mr. RANKIN. This is a copy we will substitute.

Now, do you want to tell about the shooting of Officer Tippit?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I have many, many clippings--as I say, we have all these people working. And we have come to the conclusion, and have never seen where they had an autopsy on Patrolman Tippit or even his gun or anything. In other words, Patrolman Tippit's life has been quiet from the very beginning after the shooting. I have never seen anything about him in print. And we question where all the money that has been given to Mrs. Tippit has come from. That is a tremendous amount of money--tremendous for donations.

The CHAIRMAN. You say you question the money?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir; the donations to Mrs. Tippit.

The CHAIRMAN. You mean you question whether she received them or not?

Mrs. OSWALD. No--where is the money coming from? As far as she knows, sir, they are donations. But where is the actual money coming from, because it is such a large amount? Like I question Marina's money. She has now $38,000. That is just what they have stated she has. What she has may be more. But that is a lot of money for donations, a tremendous lot of money.

And Mrs. Tippit has, I think, almost half a million dollars. Is that correct? I am not quite sure. But, anyhow, it is a large amount of money. And with our investigation and things that are not according to Hoyle, we do question where the money is coming from.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you have any idea where it comes from, after your investigation?

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, Mr. Lane has. I do not have all the information. He has this information. And we are still investigating it, sir. And we will investigate if it takes another year or two. We are going to continue to arrive at the truth.

Mr. RANKIN. You referred to an article in the Time Magazine of February 14, 1964, volume 83, No. 7, when you said there were some things that were wrong in it--do you remember that?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you write a letter about this assassination of President Kennedy to President Johnson at some time?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir; I never have.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you send a telegram?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. The only telegram I sent to President Johnson was stating that I had sent a telegram to you and Chief Justice Warren, if you remember.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you get any response from the White House?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not get a response from the White House. And I am indignant at the response that I did get. What it did was to inform me, I was so graciously treated by Mr. Kennedy and his Administration, as I have stated and testified, that I am shocked that I am now to be told that I am not to worry the President. "In response to your telegram to the President, I wish to inform you that any requests or any information dealing with the inquiry conducted by Chief Justice Warren should properly be directed to the Commission. I note in your telegram that you have directed your request to the Chief Justice and to Mr. Rankin, the Commission's General Counsel. Sincerely, Lee C. White, Assistant Special Counsel to the President."

Mr. RANKIN. That is the response that you received from the White House?

Mrs. OSWALD. From the telegram that I sent, when I sent a telegram to you and Chief Justice Warren--I sent him a telegram. I have it right here, sir. You don't know about the telegram.

Here is a copy of the telegram.

"President Lyndon B. Johnson. I have sent night letters to Chief Justice Earl Warren and J. Lee Rankin imploring both in the name of justice and our American way of life to let my son Lee Harvey Oswald be represented by counsel so that all witnesses including my son's widow will be cross-examined. Respectfully yours, Mrs. Marguerite Oswald."

And this is the response to that. And I don't think that is a gracious response at all. If I want to write the President or send him a telegram, I think I have as much right as anyone else to do so.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you comment on the fact of this response from the White House when you received it to anybody?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. There was a reporter from Time Magazine that I commented to, because I was indignant, as I said. And he said, "Well, if you or your next door neighbor or anybody walking in the street wanted to write the President, that is our American way of life." And I agreed with him.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, you are quoted in this article as saying "Why, I have got as much right as any citizen to write the President of the United States, to petition him, and let me tell you this, Mr. Johnson should also remember that I am not just anyone, and that he is only President of the United States by the grace of my son's action." Is that a correct quote?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, that is not a correct quote. And that is why I was indignant yesterday when I read that. And there is more discrepancies.

I did tell him about receiving the letter, and I had just received it--that I was indignant they should write and as much intimate that I should not write the President.

I made a special appeal to the President.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall what you did say? Did you say anything like this?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. There was nothing said to this reporter about President Johnson--because I believe my son is innocent. So if I say that, then I would be saying that my son is guilty. And that is why the President is now the President. No, sir. I did not say that.

Mr. RANKIN. What reporter for Time Magazine was that that you were talking to?

Mrs. OSWALD. I can find out the name for you, or I can think about it. Let's see. I think the name is Sullivan. I did not want to think--but I think it is Sullivan. Do you have that information?

Mr. RANKIN. No.

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, I will get it for you, or maybe it will come to me.

Mr. RANKIN. All right.

Mrs. OSWALD. But I do know, because I was paid for the picture--one of the pictures in that magazine.

Mr. RANKIN. We would appreciate your telling us as accurately as you can.

Mrs. OSWALD. I want to give you any and every information I can.

The CHAIRMAN. Did the man who interviewed you in this matter also pay for the picture--the same man?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes sir--for the Time Magazine.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he pay you for any part of the story?

Mrs. OSWALD. No sir. No, I am wrong there, he did. He paid me for part of the story. That is not the story.

This isn't the story that was supposed to have come out. It was a much nicer and softer story. But we have found out that when we give these press notices, that they don't come out the way you give them. And they explain--like if I was to tell Mr. Sullivan, "I am disappointed in your story"--"Well, Mrs. Oswald, our editor edits to make room," and so on. That is what you get. I was disappointed in the story, because the story was that I felt so sorry for Marina, to think that she had to go through the rest of her life thinking in her mind that her husband was the killer of President Kennedy, and that she would have to tell her children that she had gone down in history, that their father was the killer of President Kennedy. And I went on with a long story. I said--they said "Marina had stringy hair, and she didn't have this or that." Let me tell you, I would rather have Marina with the stringy hair and less clothes, but thinking that her husband was innocent, like she thought the 3 days I was there--rather than the picture now, where she smokes, she no longer nurses her baby, she left her baby in Texas to come to the Warren Commission, which is not the Marina I know.

"Marina, Mama, no, no, she never left her children." And well groomed. But she thinks now her husband shot President Kennedy. What an awful thing. I would much rather have no money and stringy hair and be the girl I was before, and believe my husband was innocent.

The CHAIRMAN. How much did Life pay you for your story?

Mrs. OSWALD. Is that pertinent?

The CHAIRMAN. Or Time, rather.

Mrs. OSWALD. Is that pertinent to the Commission, or is that my personal?

Mr. DOYLE. I don't think the Chief Justice--he has simply asked you a question. If you wish to answer the question that is fine. If you don't, if you tell the Chief Justice you don't wish to answer the question----

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, it doesn't have any bearing. I think the amount I got would be immaterial to the Commission. I don't know.

The CHAIRMAN. Well. I think it might be material under some circumstances. But if she doesn't wish to tell us, that is all right.

Mrs. OSWALD. It is not--just like the pictures. I want you to have the pictures. And you didn't seem to think they were important enough.

I am asking if this is important to the Commission, because that is my personal life. It is no crime to sell the pictures. I have no job or income. If I want to sell a picture to a magazine or a newspaper, and protect myself financially, I am going to continue to do that.

Mr. DOYLE. The Commission has stated to you that it would be interested in knowing, that it feels it might be of some value to them. But if you do not wish to say anything about it, they would not press you.

So again, it would be completely up to you.

Mrs. OSWALD. I think that would probably, like these pictures, be my personal----

Mr. RANKIN. Did you learn about the attempt of your son to shoot General Walker?

Mrs. OSWALD. I am delighted you asked me that question. I have these notes here, and didn't go through that.

The first time I knew about General Walker was through the paper.

Now, I became indignant. I do not remember the quotes. But why I became indignant, was that I had Lee's handwriting in Russian. But no one came to me to find out about this note. That is the part, gentlemen, that is so peculiar about this whole thing.

I understand through reporters that the note was shown to Mrs. Ruth Paine, and wanted to know if the handwriting was Lee's handwriting. But no one has come to find out if I had any handwriting of Lee in Russian, which I have.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you think this was in Russian?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I am under the impression that the note was in Russian. It stated in the paper.

Mr. RANKIN. When did you learn about the Walker incident?

Mrs. OSWALD. Through the newspaper. And it has been changed, the story, now. If I can remember. Now, I will get this for you. I have a friend that has one of the most complete scrapbooks in the United States, that helps in this investigation. And I can get all these articles, sir. And I will help in every way possible.

If I remember correctly, it was stated that Marina found this note in the room that says "I may be arrested, and if so get in touch with the Russian consul" and told her where to go to the jailhouse. I wish I knew the exact quote. So we are getting back to an agent now.

From what I remember in the beginning, he did not say in the note that he was going to kill General Walker--that he would be involved in something that might cause him to be arrested and so on. I remember this. That was in the very beginning, sir. It came out in Fort Worth, Tex.

So he is going to be involved in something. That doesn't mean he is going to shoot General Walker.

Mr. RANKIN. When did you learn that he did try to shoot General Walker?

Mrs. OSWALD. As the story started to leak out from the paper, what we call leaks. I have to say this, because we are investigating this. I am not the main investigator. But I talk to people. They call, and I get letters from them. Every now and then Mr. Jim Martin, who is the business manager for Marina, would quote Marina--not Marina, but he would quote Marina about General Walker, quoted her about thinking in her mind that her husband had killed the President.

And I was firing back through the newspapers and saying Mr. Jim Martin was an American citizen, and I didn't appreciate him quoting my daughter-in-law about these things, because they are of no advantage. How can they prove that Lee had killed General Walker, because now maybe they would not have the bullets--and so on. It happened before.

Mr. RANKIN. You knew that he was not killed.

Mrs. OSWALD. What good would it be for Mr. Martin to make a statement like this that Marina said, and publicize it, when they possibly could not now prove that Lee had anything to do with it, gun or bullets or anything. I could not see his purpose in doing this--which has hurt my daughter-in-law very much. I have many letters from people expressing their opinion that they did not appreciate her coming out with these remarks. But it is Mr. Jim Martin.

Marina is a foreign girl, and doesn't know what these people are doing to her, Mr. Rankin. I have publicly fought this over and over--if you have my quotes from the Fort Worth Star Telegram and so on, and probably the New York papers. I deeply feel sorry for Marina. Marina is a Russian girl. Maybe if her husband was picked up to be a murderer, maybe they would shoot him in Russia. I don't know.

But here we have an American way of life that Marina is not familiar with.

Mr. RANKIN. Don't you want her to tell the truth about it?

Mrs. OSWALD. I want Marina to tell the truth just like I want to tell the truth. But from my testimony here, I have found out that Marina has lied.

Mr. RANKIN. What have you found out about the Walker incident? Have you found anything about that was untrue that Marina said?

Mrs. OSWALD. That Marina said it?

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Mrs. OSWALD. I have not heard Marina say it. I have not heard Marina say it. I can answer this way. This comes from Mr. Jim Martin. There is many, many things about Mr. Jim Martin and Mr. Thorne that I don't think maybe it is right that I should say these things in front of the Commission, because they are rumors.

But a rumor, you will have to, in a case as big as this, and where there are so many people involved, you have to analyze these rumors. I will say this: I understand from many, many a source that the Dallas Bar Association is going to have Mr. Jim Thorne before them. Now that is my understanding there.

Mr. RANKIN. So all you know about the Walker incident is what you have read in the papers.

Mrs. OSWALD. What I have read in the paper. And I certainly did not appreciate that. Mr. Jim Martin is a citizen, if Marina is not.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, did you ever ask your son, Lee Oswald, whether he was an agent of anybody?

Mrs. OSWALD. No sir, I have never asked Lee Oswald if he was an agent because I felt like he would not tell me.

Mr. RANKIN. But you have not asked him.

Mrs. OSWALD. No, I have not asked him.

Oh, one very important thing that I must tell you. On November 26--that was the night of November 26, and the day of November 26 was when I found out that Marina was going to live with someone else, and we had no contact. So I knew I wasn't wanted or involved. I was in the bedroom. And I left the Inn of the Six Flags, gentlemen, under strict security protection. I opened the door and had my coat and pocketbook, and I went out doors. And I was about 15 feet when they realized that I had left the Inn. Now, there was a man on the outside, stationed there night and day. But there was a little arbor. And this was in the bedroom. We had two entrances--one to the living room and one to the bedroom. I opened the bedroom door. I had my coat and bag and I was going to go home. I was going to take a bus and go home because I didn't get to talk to my daughter-in-law--they had taken over.

And I was 15 or 20 feet when two agents came and took me by the arm and I went back in. I didn't make a stink or anything about it. And that night I sat up all night, and the next morning I insisted upon going home. But the point that has to be made is was I under arrest or not--since these men came and took me by the arm and brought me back to the Inn of the Six Flags.

The CHAIRMAN. Were you all dressed to go home when they took hold of you that way?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, when they took hold of me this way. And I didn't say anything. I just went back in. So then the doctor--I do not know his name, you have his name--the doctor came in to see the children, they had diarrhea. And the man whispered something to the doctor. And we closed the door. The doctor asked me for Lee's social security number. And I have testified that I had gone home the night before to get all my papers, after much persuasion. I started to look through the papers for Lee's number. And I started to cry. He and I were in the room alone. I think this was purposely, because they said something to the doctor.

I said I am very upset and told the doctor what happened. And I said "You know, my heart is breaking. I cannot understand how they would do something like that, and not tell me about it."

So he talked with me, and he gave me two pills. When we opened the door he said to the agents "She is all right, she has a right to her feelings." So they must have thought that I was--something was wrong with me. They thought--because I took the attitude immediately--well, Robert said it--I said "Why didn't you let me know." "Well, just because the way you are acting now." I said "How am I acting. I am acting in a normal way. I have lost my son. Now you have made arrangements without consulting me to take my daughter and two grandchildren to live with strangers. This is a normal reaction. Am I going to say yes, take my daughter-in-law and grandchildren, I don't need my part of them."

This is a normal reaction.

Reverend Saunders, Louis Saunders, who is a minister at the grave, accidentally came at the very last minute. He had not preached a sermon in 8 years. He is head of the Council of Churches.

He heard we could not get a minister so he was able to come at the very last minute. And Rev. Granville Walker was sent to my home in Fort Worth, Tex., the next day after I arrived home, to help, to console me about this case. So he said "Mrs. Oswald, I understand that Marina has been offered a very fine home, and how do you feel about that. Are you not glad that your daughter-in-law is going to be taken care of and the children have an education."

I said "No, Reverend Saunders, I do not feel that way about it. Those are material things. How do we know if these children will live to derive any benefit from this education. I think that we should stick together as a family. Her Mama, like she wanted. The girl said she has no Mama. Everything was arranged for the Mama. She is talking about money and material things. I expressed my opinion at the Six Flags, that we start with $863--no contributions were coming in. And then if we cannot make it, then let the ones that are so concerned help us. And I remarked--I am working for a very wealthy woman.

Who knows, maybe she will give us $5,000. Let us stick together as a family. Reverend Saunders says "Mrs. Oswald, your philosophy of life is beautiful, and it is a Biblical way. But you know you have to be practical."

So the very next day, sir--and this is in "Christianity Today," to prove my point--Mr. Jim Cox, who writes for "Christianity Today" and is a Star Telegram reporter called me and said "Mrs. Oswald, Reverend Saunders called me and wanted me to get a story from you, because he thought you had such a wonderful philosophy of life."

I sat down, and Mr. Jimmy Cox stayed home from Church--I gave Mr. Jimmy Cox a story that is in Christianity Today, that only goes to ministers, and it is because of Reverend Saunders. So I do have people to testify about this particular thing. And I did act in a normal way. That is a normal reaction, to not want to give up my family.

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald. I will give you Exhibits 206 through 227, both inclusive, and ask you if that is--if those are photostatic copies of your correspondence--would you look at each one of them--with the State Department that you have referred to in your testimony?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. Do you want the numbers as I go along?

Mr. RANKIN. No. You just look at them.

Mrs. OSWALD. That is correct.

Representative FORD. These are copies, Mr. Rankin, of her letters to the State Department and the responses?

Mrs. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. RANKIN. Yes, that is correct, is it not, Mrs. Oswald?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, that is correct.

Mr. RANKIN. And these copies were made under your supervision were they not.

Mrs. OSWALD. That is correct. And I voluntarily gave you every copy I have. That is correct. That is correct. That is correct.

Some of this seems to be scratched out here.

Mr. DOYLE. On Exhibit No. 221, there seems to be some X markings around. Will you put that aside, and we can compare that with the original.

Mrs. OSWALD. This is correct. That is correct. That is correct. I don't remember writing to Mrs. James. I remember calling her on the telephone. This is my handwriting. I guess I did.

Yes, that is my handwriting. That is correct.

That is correct. That is correct. And this is correct, but should have a card with it.

Mr. DOYLE. You are referring to 227?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. And it should have with it a card, a postcard, from Lee.

Mr. DOYLE. Set 227 aside with 221.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you have a copy of 221?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Will you please check to see that is a correct copy.

Mr. Chairman, I think that we might gain time now if we would check these exhibits out with Mrs. Oswald, and be able to offer them at whatever time we reconvene. That is all we propose to do now.

The CHAIRMAN. All right.

Mrs. OSWALD. This is the card that should have gone with that.

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, were you able to find your copy of Exhibit 221, and compare it and see whether that which is marked on is on your copy?

Mrs. OSWALD. No sir, we have not found that yet.

"Yours 11th" is scratched out.

Mr. RANKIN. So that 221 is correct, but apparently there are some errors----

Mrs. OSWALD. There are more errors, too. Because it doesn't say "Services Department of State."

Mr. DOYLE. 221 does not appear to be a photostat of the exhibit.

Mr. RANKIN. But it does have exactly the same material on it, doesn't it?

Mrs. OSWALD. It doesn't have this--"collect." I would not say it was an exact copy.

Mr. DOYLE. It appears to have substantially the information on it. It is not a photostat of it.

Mr. RANKIN. I might advise you, Mrs. Oswald, this is from the State Department's file, from which the telegram was made up that was sent to you.

Mr. DOYLE. It is not a photostat, but it does have substantially the information that is set forth in the telegram itself.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, you have examined all of the exhibits, 206 through 227, both inclusive, and found them, except for what you and your counsel said about exhibit 221, and the card that was with 227, to be correct.

Mrs. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibits 206 through 227, both inclusive.

The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted.

(Commission Exhibit Nos. 206 through 227, heretofore marked for identification, were received in evidence.)

Mrs. OSWALD. This is the card that goes with this letter, as an explanation.

(The card referred to was marked Exhibit No. 240 for identification.)

Mr. RANKIN. Exhibit 240 is the card you have just referred to that goes with Exhibit 227, is that right?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 240, and ask that a copy be substituted.

The CHAIRMAN. That may be admitted.

(The card referred to was received in evidence as Commission Exhibit No. 240.)

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, would you examine exhibits 228 through 236, both inclusive? And tell us whether or not those appear to be photostatic copies of correspondence about the Albert Schweitzer College and application?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, that is right. That is right. This is correct. That is right. That is right. That is right. That is right. That is right. That is right. That is right. That is right. That is right.

Those are all right, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. You have just finished comparing Exhibits 228 through 236 both inclusive, and found them to be correct photostatic copies of your files concerning the Albert Schweitzer matter?

Mrs. OSWALD. That is right.

Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence, Exhibits 228 through 236 both inclusive.

The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted.

(The photostatic copies referred to were received in evidence as Commission Exhibit Nos. 228 through 236, inclusive.)

The CHAIRMAN. Have you introduced all the records you have now?

Mr. RANKIN. Just a few more, Mr. Chairman.

(The document referred to was marked 241 for identification.)

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, I hand you Exhibit 241 and ask you if that is one of the letters that you referred to in your testimony?

Mrs. OSWALD. That is right.

Mr. RANKIN. And it is one that you received?

Mrs. OSWALD. It is one that I received in a letter from Russia, from Lee. And you have the letter, telling me to go to the International Rescue Committee, and to show the papers to the Red Cross in Vernon. This is the letter inclosed in that letter.

Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 241, and ask leave to substitute a copy.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.

(The letter referred to was received in evidence as Commission Exhibit No. 241.)

(Documents marked 242 and 243 for identification.)

Mr. RANKIN. Exhibits 242 and 243 are the telegram and the letter you received back from your transmission to the White House that you have testified about this morning, is that right?

Mrs. OSWALD. That is right.

Mr. RANKIN. And you say you would like to have the originals back?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibits 242 and 243 and ask leave to substitute copies.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted on that condition.

(Commission Exhibits Nos. 242 and 243 were admitted in evidence.)

The CHAIRMAN. Are all the records identified now and admitted, Mr. Rankin?

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, we have one further matter, and that is some correspondence that involves her son's communications with the Embassy, which correspondence was examined in the presence of Mr. Mark Lane when we were taking photostatic copies. And during that examination, Mrs. Oswald was able to identify the handwriting on part of them, and not able to identify it on another part. Is that right, Mrs. Oswald?

Mrs. OSWALD. That is right; yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. And we think we should probably, to cover that matter, ask her briefly to point those out.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well. Let's get that done before we adjourn, and then we will adjourn for lunch.

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Reporter, I will ask you to mark these exhibits, which are the ones that I understand Mrs. Oswald was able to identify the handwriting on.

(Documents were marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 244 through 250 for identification.)

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, will you examine Exhibits 244 through 250, both inclusive, and tell us whether or not those are photostatic copies of communications of your son that you recognize the handwriting on of the originals?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. DOYLE. If you do not on any one of them, announce the number.

Mrs. OSWALD. This is one I would believe that I have stated--if he wrote it, he wrote it very careful. It is not scribbled like he usually does.

Mr. DOYLE. That is 246.

Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell whether or not that is his signature on the second page of Exhibit 246?

Mrs. OSWALD. It is just a little different. That could be forged. Just a little difference. We write left handed, and we have a trend.

Mr. RANKIN. Is that one that you said before that you thought you could recognize?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know, sir. I have no way of knowing. How would I know?

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recognize the handwriting now?

Mrs. OSWALD. As I have stated before, when I am looking at it, it doesn't appear to be immediately as Lee's handwriting. But it could be something that he has recopied over and over to get such a perfect lettering. It is not scribbled like we usually scribble. Now, this was one also that I would say----

Mr. RANKIN. That is Exhibit 247.

Mrs. OSWALD. That is scribbled.

Mr. RANKIN. That is more scribbled, you say?

Mrs. OSWALD. It is not quite as his ordinary writing. It is a little more thoughtfully written.

Mr. RANKIN. You think it is his, though?

Mrs. OSWALD. I would say this is his.

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Mrs. OSWALD. Now, this is thoughtfully written, too, yet it is his.

Mr. RANKIN. Exhibit 248.

Mrs. OSWALD. I am looking at this handwriting, because the rest of it is printed. I do not know too much about Lee's printing.

Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell about the handwriting?

Mrs. OSWALD. The signature looks like Lee's signature.

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Mrs. OSWALD. I will state again this looks like Lee's handwriting, but very thoughtfully written.

Mr. RANKIN. That is Exhibit 249. Is that right?

Mrs. OSWALD. That is right. And this is Lee's signature.

Mr. RANKIN. That is Exhibit 250 that you just referred to?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. Now, I would say it is all Lee's handwriting, but very thoughtfully written.

Mr. RANKIN. Thank you. We offer in evidence Exhibits 244 through 250, both inclusive.

The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted.

(The documents referred to were received in evidence as Commission Exhibits Nos. 244 through 250, inclusive.)

(A group of documents was then marked 251 through 258 for identification.)

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, I will hand you Exhibits 251 through 257, both inclusive, and ask you to examine those, and state whether you recognize the handwriting.

Mrs. OSWALD. That doesn't look too much like Lee's handwriting. It could be a finer pen and more thoughtfully written. But I cannot identify this as Lee's handwriting.

Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell about the signature?

Mrs. OSWALD. The signature looks a little like Lee's signature.

Mr. DOYLE. You refer to 251, when you are discussing this?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, 251.

Now, this one I would say was not Lee's handwriting.

Mr. RANKIN. That is 252?

Mrs. OSWALD. 252.

I have never known Lee to sign Lee Harvey Oswald. He always signed Lee H. There again, that could be Lee's handwriting with a fine pen. But very thoughtfully written. But I will say it is not Lee's. I don't think it is. I cannot be positive. But I do not think it is Lee's handwriting.

Mr. RANKIN. That is Exhibit 252 that you have been referring to?

Mrs. OSWALD. Exhibit 252.

Here is another of the same caliber. It is too perfect. The writing is too perfect.

Mr. RANKIN. What about the signature?

Mrs. OSWALD. The signature looks like Lee's signature.

Mr. DOYLE. That is 253.

Mrs. OSWALD. 253. Yes, sir. This is a little different signature, I would say, than his normal signature.

Mr. RANKIN. 254?

Mrs. OSWALD. 254, yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. You think that Exhibit 254 is your son's handwriting or not?

Mrs. OSWALD. I would have to say with reservations again. It would have to be rewritten very thoroughly. It is not scribbled enough.

Mr. RANKIN. You think that those letters, 251 through 254, are too carefully done for your son Lee?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. And if he did do them, he would have to have four or five copies to do it so perfect.

This is a little more scribbled. This signature looks more like Lee's than the other did.

Mr. RANKIN. That is 255?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. 255.

This looks like Lee's handwriting--a lot of misspelling, and his signature. 256.

Now his Russian handwriting I know only from return addresses. However, I do have two brown papers with Russian writing on, from gifts that were sent to me. But I don't know if Lee addressed them or not.

And this is Lee's handwriting with a very fine pen. Isn't this handwriting backwards for a left hand? It seems when I looked at "my," it should be going this way--because I write like Lee, left handed.

Mr. RANKIN. When you refer to this--or asked whether it was backwards, you were referring to Exhibit 257, were you?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. This "m" should be going this way--which it is really. But it is kind of hard to testify to. I would say this is Lee's handwriting with a very fine pen, with reservations.

Mr. RANKIN. Exhibit 257.

We offer in evidence Exhibits 251 through 257, both inclusive.

The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted.

(The documents referred to were received in evidence as Commission Exhibits Nos. 251 through 257, inclusive.)

The CHAIRMAN. Mrs. Oswald, are you now ready--we are not going to ask you to do it right now, but we are going to recess at 2 o'clock. But are we now at the point where we can hear whatever you want to tell us about your life?

Mrs. OSWALD. I am sorry, but I would like to have lunch.

The CHAIRMAN. I said that we were going to have lunch. But when we return--you have things up to that point of your story?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well.

You have another question you want to ask before we recess for lunch?

Mr. RANKIN. I should like to offer for the limited purpose, Mr. Chairman, of the fact that we presented this picture to Mrs. Oswald and she said it was not the picture that was presented to her--for that limited purpose I should like to offer Exhibit 237.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be so admitted.

(The picture referred to was received in evidence as Commission Exhibit No. 237.)

Mr. DOYLE. Mr. Chief Justice, during the noon hour may I have the custody of this transcript of a tape recording of an interview with Mrs. Oswald, the 28 pages which was tendered to us by Mr. Rankin this morning--and I will return it.

Mr. RANKIN. That is for them to have.

The CHAIRMAN. That is to become your own.

Mr. DOYLE. To become the property of Mrs. Oswald.

The CHAIRMAN. The property of Mrs. Oswald, yes. That is what we gave it to you for. She requested that.

Mr. DOYLE. Thank you very much.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well, we will recess now until 2 o'clock.

(Whereupon, at 12:55 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)

Afternoon Session

TESTIMONY OF MRS. MARGUERITE OSWALD RESUMED

The President's Commission reconvened at 2:05 p.m.

The CHAIRMAN. All right, Mr. Rankin, will you proceed with the hearing?

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, you said that you would like to turn now to telling us about your life. We would appreciate that if you would do that.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Mrs. Oswald, if you would prefer not to tell the story of your life, that is perfectly all right.

Mrs. OSWALD. I want to tell the story but there is something else that upsets me.

The CHAIRMAN. It is perfectly all right if you don't wish to. You may take your time now and go right ahead.

Mrs. OSWALD. I am sorry, you will have to excuse me about the story of my life, and Mr. Doyle knows why, but there is one part of the story of my life that will have a great connection with this, I believe.

I married Mr. Edwin Ekdahl who was an electrical engineer and a $10,000 a year man with an expense account. Mr. Ekdahl had a woman before he married me. Of course, I didn't know about it, sir. I made him wait a year before I married him, but the way I found this out, I received a telephone call, a telegram rather, he traveled--lots of times Lee and I traveled with him--stating he wouldn't return home when he was supposed to and for me not to meet him.

So, I called his office, I was familiar with, knew his secretary, and I was going to tell her that Mr. Ekdahl would be delayed 3 or 4 days. But immediately she said, "Mrs. Ekdahl, Mr. Ekdahl is not in, he has gone out to lunch."

So, I said, the general conversation went "When will he be back" and so on, and so that evening I took the car and I went to the Texas Electric Co., works for the Texaco, the main office in New York, but he was working in Fort Worth at the time, went to the building and saw him leave the building and I followed him and to an apartment house, saw him go into this apartment house.

Then I went back home, and my oldest son, John Edward Pic, who is in the service, had a friend at the house who was about 2 years older. I told them about what happened. So it was night by this time. The kids went with me.

I called Mr. John McClain, who is an attorney, and we live next door to Mr. McClain, and told him that I had seen Mr. Ekdahl go into a home when he was supposed to be out of town and what should I do.

He said, "Mrs. Oswald, just ring the phone. Do you know the woman?"

And I said, "Yes."

"Just ring the phone and let him know that you know he is there, that you saw him."

After I thought about it I thought that is not a good idea because he could leave and say he was just there on business and I wanted to catch him there.

So the kids and I planned that we would say she had a telegram, so we went up the stairs, I believe it was the second or the third floor, and the young man knocked on the door and said, "Telegram for Mrs. Clary"--was her name.

She said, "Please push it under the door" and I told him no; he said, "No, you have to sign for it."

So with that she opened the door to sign for it and with that I, my son, and with the other young man walked into the room and Mrs. Clary had on a negligee, and my husband had his sleeves rolled up and his tie off sitting on a sofa, and he said, "Marguerite, Marguerite, you have everything wrong, you have everything wrong."

He says, "Listen to me."

I said, "I don't want to hear one thing. I have seen everything I want to see, this is it."

My two boys, in military school, the two older boys, I am paying for the two older boys because I have sold a piece of property. I wanted to take care as long as I had money of my own children and when I married Mr. Ekdahl if he would support me and Lee I would be able to take care of John Edward, and Robert in military school, we couldn't have them with us because Mr. Ekdahl traveled.

This man never let me share with his insurance policies, beneficiary, in other words, I was another woman to him. I received $100 a month and that was it. That was all the money I had from Mr. Ekdahl, and when we traveled, for instance, we were in Santa Fe, N. Mex., and he was with all the businessmen, we would have to wait until Mr. Ekdahl got through, the baby and I, in order to eat, whether it was 2 or 3 o'clock in the evening because here I was, registered under Mrs. Ekdahl and I had a checking account, but under the name of Oswald, which was the money I was using for the children so it was kind of inconvenient for me to write a check under the name of Oswald.

I am trying to point out the kind of man he was.

I had a nice living in this sense. We lived in the finest hotels and we had the finest food because all of this was charged to his expense account but he gave me nothing but this $100. That was a standard thing and he expected me to account for every cent of the hundred dollars that I spent, which I refused to do.

So, we argued naturally, because this is not a marriage. Any man who marries a woman naturally shares, she shares in his bank account and in his insurance and so on and so forth.

I wanted to divorce Mr. Ekdahl naturally but my two boys as I have stated before were in the military school, and I wanted to wait until the end of the season, the school season.

So, Lee and I went to Covington, La., and I picked the boys up at military school because this was summer time--rather I wasn't back to him.

I left him and went back to him. But this particular time I picked the boys up at military school and we spent the summer in Covington, La., and by the way, I forgot to say that Lee had a beautiful voice and sang beautifully at age 6 in Covington, La., he sang a solo in the church, Silent Night, and that can be verified. This is a very small town and the only Lutheran Church there.

So, Mr. Ekdahl came to Covington, La., and I went back again to Mr. Ekdahl. But this time I went back to him I hadn't found out about the woman. I got excited. Then I found out about the woman, he rented a place on 8th Avenue, a home.

And after I was there about a day I was in the yard hanging out some things and it was in the apartment house downstairs and a woman came along and I said, "How are you? I am Mrs. Ekdahl."

She looked astonished, and after I had made friends with her she informed me Mr. Ekdahl had a woman in this particular house while I was in Covington and she thought she was his wife but now I am the wife come.

Then I found out about the woman and we went to her apartment and caught her there. This is the end of the season by this time.

In the meantime Mr. Ekdahl filed suit for divorce from me. I thought I was sitting pretty. He didn't have anything on me. I had him for adultery with witnesses and everything and I didn't have an idea that he could sue me for a divorce, but Mr. Ekdahl did sue me for a divorce, and Mr. Ekdahl got the divorce. It was a jury case, and Mr. John McClain, was my attorney, the man I told you that I called to find out what to do.

Now, Mr. Fred Korth represented Mr. Ekdahl and when I walked into the courtroom, gentlemen, there were witnesses there that I had never seen before.

A Mr. George Levine, who is a very big businessman and who Mr. Ekdahl was representing in Fort Worth for the electrical part of his plant. I knew him this way.

One time we went to the circus with his wife, my husband, myself and Lee, before going to the circus we had dinner. Now, understand we are having dinner in a public place. From the dinner we go to the circus, we are in a public place and I want you to know that it is the only time I had seen Mr. George Levine, when Mr. George Levine rushed from work in his khaki pants and got on the witness stand swore how I nagged Mr. Ekdahl and how I threw bottles at him and so on and so forth.

There were other witnesses that I had never seen, sir, who swore how I nagged Mr. Ekdahl, and Mr. Ekdahl got his divorce from me.

Now, 2 days after the assassination, after Lee's death, while I am at Six Flags it comes over the radio that Mr. Korth knew the family, this happened in 1948, sir, then Mr. Korth knew the family, and that he had represented Mr. Ekdahl in divorce proceedings and, of course, talked to the reporters where they got the information that I hit him with a bottle and so on and so forth.

Now, that is my story there. I am not even guilty of that divorce, as you see. This can be proved by my son John Edward Pic because he was a witness, sir.

I do not think I am going--I am not going to speculate but give my thoughts to anyone who would immediately make a statement that he had represented the mother of the accused assassin as an attorney years ago, and that I nagged Mr. Ekdahl and so on and so forth.

That was publicly announced about 2 days after my son was shot, sir.

Now, the name then, of course, he probably knew the name Oswald, but the name then was Ekdahl that I would say would stick in his mind more.

I will try to get to the very beginning of my life, Chief Justice.

The CHAIRMAN. Any time. Just take your time.

Mrs. OSWALD. My mother died when I was quite young and my father raised us with housekeepers. My aunt lived in the neighborhood and I had a lot of cousins and a lot of aunts. My father was French, his name was Claverie, and my mother was German, the name is Stucke. All of my father's folks spoke French and my father spoke French to his sisters. I was a child of one parent, and yet I have had a normal life, a very hard normal life that I had been able to combat all by myself, sir, without much help from anyone.

I am saying that in reference to Lee being alone; there have been so many psychiatrists saying he was by himself and he had a father image and that is why he did the shooting. There are many, many children with one parent who are perfectly normal children and I happen to be one myself.

I had a very happy childhood. I sang. I sang from the kindergarten at grammar school, and all through grammar school I was the lead singer. I was one of the most popular young ladies in the school. I also play piano by ear. I don't know a note. I used to play the marching school song for the school children.

At my grammar school graduation I had the honor of wearing a pink dress instead of a white dress and sang the song "Little Pink Roses." So I had a very happy childhood and a very full childhood. I played the piano. We had house parties in those days and a lot of gatherings and it was everything Marguerite--and I also played a ukulele, so I have a very full happy childhood.

At the age of 17, I am ahead of my story--I have had 1 year high school education. I know that on my applications I had that I had completed high school but that is almost necessary to get a job.

But I had 1 year of high school education is all that I had, sir.

I then went to work at age 17, not quite 17, for one of the biggest corporation lawyers in New Orleans, La. The name then was DuFour, Rosen, Wolff, and Kammer. Mr. DuFour died while I was there and Mr. Kammer, I believe, is still living but they were corporation attorneys for that firm plus 4 or 5 other attorneys that handled divorce cases and similar cases and I was receptionist in the outer office.

So, everybody who came into the office had to state their business to me, because the attorneys were very busy, and if it was a particular case I had to know who to refer the party to this particular man.

So, naturally, I got a very large education, let's say, by doing this, and the mayor and everybody in the town, these are the largest attorneys, corporation attorneys in New Orleans, sir, and they were attorneys representing the New Orleans Public Service and big things of that sort, and the mayor and all used to call me the boss. When the mayor came in he had an appointment but I still had to ring the phone to see if the men were ready to see him. So they called me the boss.

I was also a maid in one of the carnival balls. I am a very poor young lady but a very, let's say, popular young lady.

My early childhood. We lived on the Phillips Street in New Orleans which was a very poor neighborhood. My father was one of the very first streetcar conductors and stayed on the very same line all these years until he retired and they gave him a citation because he was on the same line all those years from retirement, and we lived in a mixed neighborhood of Negroes and white, and my childhood I played with Negroes, sir, right next door to me was a lovely family that I grew up with this Negro family.

I married Mr. Edward John Pic, Jr., while working at the law firm. I was married to Mr. Pic two and a half years when I became with child, and he did not want any children. His family and my family tried to talk to him, and, well, his family almost beat him up to say, but nobody could do anything with him.

So, at 3 months I left Mr. Pic. Mr. Pic did not divorce me, and you have the records there of me divorcing Mr. Pic, contrary to all other stories, sir.

This child, John Edward Pic then I bore alone, without a husband. I was 3 months pregnant. I had 6 more months to go, and I had this child without a husband.

So, I have had two children without a husband present, Lee and the first child.

Mr. Oswald was an insurance agent, and he used to collect insurance at my sister's house, and the day that I left Mr. Pic he helped move my furniture, the things that I was going to take.

I didn't see Mr. Ekdahl for some time and----

The CHAIRMAN. Ekdahl or Oswald.

Mrs. OSWALD. Mr. Oswald, sir, I am sorry.

John Edward and I were coming from the park one day, and Mr. Ekdahl picked--Mr. Oswald picked me up, and he was separated from his wife, however, not divorced but had been separated for a number of years, and I started dating Mr. Ekdahl and we decided to marry and he divorced his wife.

Mr. RANKIN. You said Ekdahl again.

Mrs. OSWALD. Oswald, I am sorry, and then he got the divorce proceeding. He was separated for a long time but never had been divorced from his wife but when we knew he was going to marry, and I also then got the divorce from Mr. Pic. I was not divorced there from Mr. Pic, either. We were legally separated but I was not divorced from him.

So, Mr. Oswald and I married and of that marriage Robert was born 9 months later, and as you know consequently Lee, 2 months after his father had died.

Now, Mr. Oswald was a very good man. There was the only happy part of my life. When he died hardly anybody knew that John Edward Pic was not his son. He wanted to adopt John Edward, but because his father was supporting him which I think was only $18 a month, I explained to Lee that I thought we should save this money for the boys' education and let his own father support him and naturally we would educate and do all we could do but that was no more than right. So that is why he did not adopt John Edward.

Now, that is the story of my three marriages. I have been married approximately 9 years in the three times that I have been married, sir, and I would say, I am probably guilty of a lot of things but the initial guilt has never been mine in any of these marriages, the first marriage I had explained, the second marriage was death, and the third marriage was Mr. Ekdahl.

I think then you know the rest of the story, how I lived with my children and tried to support my children.

I have often held two jobs trying to support my children. I have a whole file that the Commission has copies of jobs that I have worked, and I have also worked for these places twice, and have gone back. I have wonderful recommendations. I think I have been fired about five times in my life, and I have had much, much employment, and the reason for that is finances, in other words, I have always had a very low salary, and I am a very aggressive sales person, as these papers say, and I always produce for my people and I was in demand actually.

They would come to me and offer me 20, 25 dollars more, believe me, gentlemen. I would quit the job where I was and quit the new job because 25 dollars paid my light and heat bill and gave my children some clothes and that is mostly the reason for all of this employment, and also I used to quit my job as much as possible in the summer time when the children were little in order to be home with them.

Now, I skipped a part in the beginning about the children being placed in the Lutheran Home. I am Lutheran and I was a church member, a church worker, I should say. I helped, I sewed, natural gifted, I never did take a lesson, I never did use a pattern, my sister can verify this.

I used to come home from the attorneys with material, cut out the material, sew it, press it and go out on a date. I just had the knack of doing things that way, sir, and she can verify this because my niece, I taught her to sew and my sister said, "You are so slow, Aunt Marguerite used to sew on the material and go out on a date," and my niece would say, "Is it true, my mother said you would sew on material and go out on a date," and I said, "I wish I had a nickel for every time I did."

So those are gifted things I can't explain.

Lee had certain gifted ways about him also.

In the early part of my life that I had skipped when the war broke out and my finances were gone, I talked with the church. It was on Alva Street in New Orleans, not too far where my home was and they investigated the money I had, and I had a little money left at this time and they let me place the two older boys in the Lutheran Home which is a home only for the Lutheran Church.

This is not an institution. They have their own private school on the ground, and it is primarily based for children of one parent. However, they do take orphans. It was really not designed to be an orphan home. It was for children of one parent and you pay according to your circumstances, and they investigated my salary and after I went to work, I paid according to my circumstances for my two boys.

I took my two boys home with me every weekend, sir, and brought them back in time for Sunday so they can go to church with the children in the home. They got a wonderful education because the school on the school grounds had very few children in them.

There would be maybe two or three children to a particular grade so they had wonderful school. Lee was too young. They would not take Lee into the home until he was 3 years old.

So, I have hired maids and I have quit many a job for this. You have a background on my job, this accounts for it. Many a position and I have always had title and no money, assistant manager or manager in charge of a department, and I have had to quit that, because the maid wouldn't show up, and you couldn't get a maid for love or money.

War had broken out and the Negroes in New Orleans were going into factories and so on and so forth so there is many a job I had to leave in order to stay home and mind Lee until I could get help.

Then my sister helped with Lee. There is one particular instance, I let a couple have my home, plus $15 a month in order to care for Lee while I worked, and this couple after about 2 month's time had neglected Lee and so I had to put them out of the house and there again I had to quit a job, and take care of Lee until I could make arrangements and my sister could help me with it.

So when Lee was 3 years old I was having it very difficult with Lee, because of the different people to take care of Lee, and the different jobs that I had to give up.

However, I was never in want of work. It was during the war and I was always able to get work, but I realized if I continued to quit jobs because I couldn't hold the jobs that some day I wouldn't have enough jobs in New Orleans for me to hold one.

So, then at age 3 Lee was placed in the home. I waited patiently for age 3 because I wanted naturally for the brothers to be together. It was hard on Lee also because Lee was at a different place and his brothers were at a different place. So at age 3 I placed Lee in a Lutheran home. Of course, you have to be under strict investigation financially and otherwise to do this because this is a church placement, sir.

Then, I became manager of Princess hosiery shop on Canal Street. I opened that shop and I was left by myself and in 6 days' time I hired four girls. There was the first shop this man has had. He now has, I think, 54 stores and he always remembers me as on the road of starting him to success, because this young man didn't have much money at the time. And this is where I met Mr. Ekdahl and there is why I didn't want to marry right away because the children were being taken care of and I was manager of the hosiery shop.

So, now, I was sitting pretty in our American slang and I did not want to marry. But he persisted. He decided he wanted to marry me and I decided to marry him. I went to the Lutheran home and talked to the, well, you don't call him a manager, the head of the home, and I was going to marry Mr. Ekdahl, and I asked if I should have, if I could have Lee, that I didn't want the children, John Edward, and Robert to miss their schooling and I told them that I would wait until the children got out of school to marry Mr. Ekdahl but Mr. Ekdahl traveled, and, yet, he had a stroke and Mr. Ekdahl had offered, if I would come to Dallas, he was being transferred to Dallas, that he would pay my room, my living quarters and everything if I would cook and take care of him and I told the home, the Lutheran home about this arrangement, so there was nothing going to be immoral about it, sir, or I wouldn't have explained to the Lutheran home and they let me have Lee under those circumstances because they knew that I was a good woman and doing the best I could.

So, I got Lee, and when we went to Dallas, I then realized I did not want to marry Mr. Ekdahl, but I had already given up my position as manager of the hosiery shop, and had taken Lee out of school so with the money, I told you I had some money, and I had sold a piece of property, I bought another piece of property for a very small down payment on Victor Street in Dallas, Tex., and Mr. Ekdahl traveled.

Now, Mr. Ekdahl used to come on weekends and stay at my home. Of course, in his bedroom with my children, just maybe not even every weekend because he traveled, and then I decided I would marry Mr. Ekdahl. I mean I decided not to, I mean, he was a persistent one.

Then I married Mr. Ekdahl and the home was sold and I traveled with Mr. Ekdahl and the children were put into military school with the money I sold the home with.

I believe I have covered everything. I am not quite sure.

Are there any questions, Mr. Rankin, that I haven't gotten?

Mr. RANKIN. I think that is very helpful.

I would like to ask you about those pictures that you offered and then decided you didn't want to give us. If you would get those out, I would like to identify them so that there cannot be any misunderstanding about just what they are about.

Could you do that?

Mrs. OSWALD. By the way, one of the reporters when I came downstairs said "What is all the commotion about those pictures, you have, Mrs. Oswald?" Where do those leaks come from? That is the example. They wanted to know about the pictures.

Mr. Chief Justice, this is Lee at 6 months.

The CHAIRMAN. He was a good looking baby.

Mrs. OSWALD. This is Lee there at 2 years. Would--if you would like a copy of the Marina pictures, sir, I would be more than happy to do that.

I think they are in an envelope. This is important, Mr. Rankin. This has something to do with Time Magazine is what I think he did. This is where he got that from. These were copied for this session. These are from my other boys to mother, and John Edward and which I wanted to show we were a family but as soon as the boys married--here is another thing, which is true to human nature.

I am a widow woman with no money and I happened not to have the type daughter-in-laws who wanted a widow woman in case they have to support me. My children make very low salaries and so I am not alone, we have thousands and thousands of women like me. It is hard to say the children don't want you. But there are many, many mothers whose sons have married because it is different with a girl.

Now a girl will take care of the mother but the boy's mother is usually nothing and I am not going to be helped or supported.

I am going to take care of myself because that is the attitude and that was the attitude when I was sick.

Lee Harvey Oswald was the only one who has helped his mother at any time but I wanted to show mothers today cared and everything until they married. That was the type family we were, sir.

And this was the picture, Mr. Rankin, of the three children which is a happy life and he wanted to be in New Orleans.

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, I am going to call your attention to Exhibit 258 which you just referred to and said maybe that is what you meant.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, because I gave him this when he entered the home.

Mr. RANKIN. This Exhibit 258 refers to the letter you received from me as general counsel for the Commission, and then a letter to the President, and your appeal to the President, is that right?

Mrs. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. RANKIN. And this is a copy you released for the press conference in Dallas. That is Exhibit 258. I offer Exhibit 258.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.

Mr. RANKIN. If you will permit me, I will ask the court reporter to identify these pictures and I don't intend to offer them but then I will ask you each one by number so we can make it clear, and then return them to you, so you can tell us what they are about, is that all right with you?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, that is just fine, thank you.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, Mrs. Oswald, I will hand you Exhibits 259 through 269, both inclusive, and ask you to take them starting with Exhibit 259 and referring to the exhibit in each case, tell the Commission what the picture is about.

Mrs. OSWALD. 259 is of the three children, John Edward, Robert, and Lee and the three are smiling. In fact this picture was in a magazine because of the three good poses. It is hard to get three pictures alike.

Mr. RANKIN. About how old are the children in that picture?

Mrs. OSWALD. I know Lee was approximately going on 6 years old. There is 5 years difference in Robert so Robert would be 11, that is correct and John Edward would be 13. That is when they went to military school.

This is a picture of Lee at age 6 months.

Mr. RANKIN. You are talking about Exhibit 260?

Mrs. OSWALD. 260, yes, sir.

This is a picture of Lee at the Bronx Zoo, Exhibit 261 at age 13.

Mr. RANKIN. That is the Bronx Zoo in New York?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. That is the Bronx Zoo in New York that you told us about.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

262 is a picture of Lee in Atsugi, Japan in 1958 showing his strength.

Mr. RANKIN. That shows him in Marine uniform also, does it?

Mrs. OSWALD. In his Marine uniform showing his muscles to his mother.

And this is a picture, Exhibit 263 taken in Corregidor 1957 in the wilderness.

Mr. RANKIN. He is still in the Marines there?

Mrs. OSWALD. Oh, yes, he is in fatigues, there. This is a picture taken August 19, 264 taken in California coming home on leave from Japan.

Mr. RANKIN. 264 he is still in the Marines?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, he is still in the Marines August 19. This is a picture of Lee taken in Minsk, Russia June 1st, 1961, Minsk, USSR, Exhibit 267.

There is a picture of Marguerite Oswald, the mother taken in New Orleans.

Mr. RANKIN. What is the number?

Mrs. OSWALD. 265.

Mr. RANKIN. Thank you. That is your own picture?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

This is a Mother's Day card sent to me from Santa Ana, California on May 7, 1959 from Lee.

Mr. RANKIN. That is Exhibit 266?

Mrs. OSWALD. And this is Exhibit 268 which is a Christmas card I had sent Lee on his first Christmas away from home--he joined in October--that Lee had kept all these years in his sea bag, this was found in his sea bag he left with me.

This is a book of Christmas carols Exhibit 269 that was also found in Lee's sea bag.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, Exhibits 259 to 269 both inclusive, are those all of the pictures that you were offering the Commission this morning?

Mrs. OSWALD. I have many more pictures, I would be happy to show you but these are the pictures that your Mr. Jenner said he would like to have for the Commission.

Mr. RANKIN. And that you were referring to when you offered them to the Commission?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Thank you very much and we would like to return them to you at this time.

The CHAIRMAN. We will return them to you, Mrs. Oswald.

Mr. RANKIN. That is all I have, Mr. Chairman.

The Chairman. Well I think that will be all then. Thank you Mrs. Oswald and if you become too tired with your testimony, we know it has been a long and arduous task for you, but we appreciate your presence.

Now, Mr. Doyle.

Mr. DOYLE. Sorry for the interruption, sir. Mrs. Oswald, do you care to make any comment to the Commission about the tape recording, the transcript of the tape recording of Mrs. Marguerite Oswald furnished to you by the Commission this morning? Do you care to make any comment about that?

Mrs. OSWALD. Should I go all the way and make the comment?

Mr. DOYLE. You make any comment you desire on that paper. I ask you whether or not you have any comment to make concerning that paper that you sent, that you were given?

Mrs. OSWALD. I am concerned about one thing, Mr. Doyle, if I may just step over there and ask you a question.

The CHAIRMAN. You may step out in the hall and talk to Mr. Doyle.

Mrs. OSWALD. Chief Justice Warren and Mr. Rankin, I have read this and it has upset me very, very much, that is what I was upset about. I have stated before in my testimony that at the end of the Six Flags I insisted upon going home and getting my important papers and I was ignored.

I wanted to testify. They put Robert on tape many a time and Marina continuously and I didn't have an interview. I have stated this previously, if you remember, and then finally a Mr. Howard put me on tape for about 5 or 10 minutes only, sir, and I had started with the defection because I was under the impression that we missed a bet when we didn't find out how Lee got to Russia and as far as I know, no reporter has been able to find out what ship he left on, and then Robert left the bedroom because he had the news that we could not get a minister, if you recall, and cried, and I said to Mr. Howard "Now all that I have left me because I see my son crying bitterly." I have stated these facts before, a very short interview.

This interview is supposed to have been by Mr. Howard, sir. The same Mr. Mike Howard that I have previously identified before on many occasions, and I swear before this Committee that now my life is more in danger which I have said before, because I did not give this testimony. This is the testimony that has been gathered by known facts because I have been a public figure.

I have had three press conferences, I have written for magazines and newspapers. I have not kept quiet, sir, as you know, so these things have been accumulated. I was not questioned and answered, sir. I have stated it before and I state it now. This is the same man who was sent to me in Fort Worth, Tex. that I have complained that I did not get protection, if you will recall. This is the very same man, sir. This is the same man that I have told you that gave my daughter-in-law a red-carpet treatment if you will recall along with the other one I identified in the picture. This is the man I have been sitting here complaining about. Here is my evidence. I am ready to have a heart attack. I was sick, sir, when I read it because I realize now how my life is in danger and I want to say this: Many people know about this, many people, sir, Mr. Jack Langdon of the Morning Times, Mr. Blair Justice of the Star Telegram and I immediately called Mr. Blair Justice of the Star Telegram when this man knocked on my door last week to protect me, and told Blair Justice that this was the man, there was an article written in the Star Telegram, not printed but about pointed every lie at the Six Flags I made it plain that the other one if he had a gun would have shot me in my prior testimony, Mr. Rankin you remember that, so I told Mr. Justice, I said "Justice I am scared to death. This is the same man that I am suspicious of that they have now sent to guard me," and as you know, sir, I was not protected.

I was not protected while in Fort Worth. I have testified to that, if you will recall. This is the man, and I did not give this testimony, sir.

I have repeatedly stated to newspapermen and to everybody publicly that I have never been questioned. The only thing I could figure why I was never questioned is because Lee was an agent, and I have stated that fact. Why they left me alone, because I have never been questioned.

Mr. Tom Whalen who is an announcer for one of the television stations in Fort Worth he kept calling Lee the assassin of President Kennedy, and I called Mr. Whalen and I said to Mr. Whalen "You don't know that Lee assassinated President Kennedy. I object to that."

I said "I can't tell you what to do, sir, but I would like you to say the accused assassin because this is what he is" and he apologized and we talked a little while and I said no sir, I told him I was not--I had never been interviewed. He says "I can't believe that, Mrs. Oswald." I said "Believe it or not I have never been interviewed," which I made a statement upon arriving in Washington that I have never had a complete tape recording or question and answer.

I went to the courthouse, and gave my information to the FBI men as I stated previously, which took a few minutes.

I never did see those men after that. They weren't investigated and at the Six Flags I repeatedly wanted to go home and get my papers and give the documents that I have here, as I stated, and I was not questioned, sir at Six Flags.

I was questioned for about 5 or 10 minutes and I stopped this way. All of my thoughts have gone from me because I see my son crying. I have previously stated that.

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, in light of your saying that you didn't give this interview evidenced by this document, a copy of which we gave to you which purports to have been recorded on November 25, 1963, by Mr. Howard, I would like to have that identified by the reporter and then give you another copy that you can compare, and I would like to ask you just a few questions about it.

Mrs. OSWALD. Fine.

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, I hand you back the 28-page reported interview that I just referred to that has just been marked Exhibit 270 and ask you if that is the document that you were referring to in your testimony?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir; this is the document I am referring to.

Mr. RANKIN. That you just said you did not give that interview?

Mrs. OSWALD. That is correct. And I will finish something, too, Mr. Mark R. Lane called and I told Mr. Mark Lane about the Secret Service man. He knows about this, many know about this, I have witnesses by this.

Mr. RANKIN. What do you mean by this?

Mrs. OSWALD. About this man, Mr. Howard.

Mr. RANKIN. I see. But not that you said that you did not give this interview.

Mrs. OSWALD. Pardon?

Mr. RANKIN. When you say this, you didn't mean that they know that you did not give this interview?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. They knew that I didn't testify, I am sorry. But Mr. Mark Lane called me the morning that I was to--the day I was supposed to leave Fort Worth to come to Washington, sir, and I said to Mr. Mark Lane, "I am not going in the car with Mr. Mike Howard." and there was another Mr. Howard by the way who came there that day. I don't know whether he was his brother or not, we will have to find out, sir, the day I was going to leave for Washington, and I said, "Lane, I am scared to death." He says "Don't worry. I will call Mr. Walden, who is the Star Telegram reporter and ask him to accompany you." and Mr. Mark Lane called Mr. Walden of the Star Telegram and asked him to accompany me and Mr. Walden did accompany me with these two Secret Service men to the airport and when Mr. Walden entered my home I told him I am so glad you are here because I didn't want to go with this agent by myself.

And this is the same agent now--Chief Justice are you interested enough for me to tell you a little more?

The CHAIRMAN. About this?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Tell what you wish about it.

Mrs. OSWALD. We are going to go back now a little bit and then you will see the pattern. At the end of the Six Flags; I will make it as short as possible and when everything was Mama and we were going to live together and I told you they took her from me and I didn't see her, then Marina's testimony started to change, sir. Marina's testimony was not this testimony the first 3 days.

I have testified, and she has testified differently than me. I don't know of all of her testimony but the first 3 days, this was not her husband's rifle, at the police station and she admitted but it wasn't her husband's rifle. She was going to live with her Mama and everything was fine and then when I told you the way they did, then Marina turned against her Mama, you no have work, and from that time Marina has been changed to a different personality, let's admit it, sir, Marina has been changing to a different personality.

Her statements, her way of life, she smokes, as I said today. I am not saying it now, she stopped nursing her baby. This is a Russian girl, I know she lived with me 1 month, how untouched of worldly things she was, and I mentioned before there was a lot of rumors that I didn't feel like I wanted to go into but that I couldn't overlook.

Sir, if you would know the rumors, then you would put two and two together what I have been trying to say. This man, along with the other one that I have identified, are definitely in this pattern, and Marina Oswald, yes, Marina Oswald has changed completely.

She made a statement on television now she is happy that she has ever been and people have written, her husband is only gone 2 months.

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, this Exhibit 270, you understand, is a transcription, that is the writing out of what was on the tape, you understand that?

Mrs. OSWALD. But I was never taped, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. We have asked, Mr. Chairman, that the tape be sent over so that it can be heard, if you wish.

The CHAIRMAN. Now, you mean.

Mr. RANKIN. Yes. It is on its way over.

The CHAIRMAN. Oh, yes.

Mrs. OSWALD. I have stated previously, if I was taped it was during a conversation going on that they taped me. I have never sat down and been taped, sir. I don't think I am out of my mind, I wonder why.

The CHAIRMAN. May I see this.

Mrs. OSWALD. Mr. Max Phillips, who is a Secret Service agent brought a dictaphone into my home, on Thomas Place, when I left Six Flags, and I saw it connected and Mr. Jim Cox of the Star Telegram can prove that I disconnected it. When I was telling Mr. Jim Cox my story about putting my children into a Lutheran home and I thought it was a personal story that had nothing to do with this particular case I disconnected the tape recorder.

Mr. Max Phillips brought a tape recorder into my home and as you know I do a lot of talking. And I never did sit down.

Mr. RANKIN. This was a tape recording at the Six Flags.

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. It purports to be. You understand that?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I understand that thoroughly.

I would like to produce some other evidence that I have also to this Commission. I have, as Mr. Doyle knows, a tape recorder with a few recordings on it, and there are several, two, I believe. Mr. Sorrels' recordings on that. I found it necessary, because my mail was being opened, my mail, I have reported to the Postal Inspections, I have stated in the beginning that all of my rights were taken away from me, and, sir, believe me they were, and when I was a lone woman I would say something I was supposed to be out of my mind and didn't know what I was talking about I started to decide I needed some evidence too and Mr. Sorrels kept pushing me off about seeing my daughter-in-law, I have him on tape, and I have Mr. Thorne on tape about my mail being opened. I have some other evidence.

Mr. RANKIN. Have you ever transcribed that?

Mrs. OSWALD. No sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Would you transcribe that and send us copies of it?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. That is a very long document. I was never questioned and answered.

The CHAIRMAN. It would hardly seem possible, Mrs. Oswald, that unless this is a complete fabrication that anyone could have given these answers but you, it is--so many of these questions and answers are exactly what you have told us.

Mrs. OSWALD. Exactly what I have told you, sir, I have been in the news continuously, I have made the same statements over and over in magazines and newspapers and press conferences, yes, sir, that is not news to anybody.

And as a matter of fact, I was taped, oh, this might be a point, I was taped at my first press conference which was at the Fort Worth Press Club which I talked approximately 2 hours, and there was a tape recorder there. I talked over 2 hours at that press conference.

Mr. RANKIN. This is question and answer?

For instance, and I am looking at page 18, there are different questions and answers.

Mrs. OSWALD. That is a condensed version of my whole testimony, as I say, because I have been in the public eye and I have all of these things public.

These things have been made public.

Mr. RANKIN. This purports to be following the tape recording as to your son Robert, you remember his giving a tape recording interview?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, Robert gave a tape recording, I told you, and so did Marina and I was not asked to be tape recorded.

I myself asked to give testimony and I did give about 5- or 10-minutes testimony that I say again that I ended up with now all my thoughts are gone, I see my son crying, a very short, and if I remember correctly, I started with the defection. I do know because I said "Robert doesn't know anything about my trip to Washington. He wasn't interested and maybe he should listen to my testimony." And I got not far from it when Robert cried and that ended that testimony.

The CHAIRMAN. Mrs. Oswald, while we are waiting, you may relax. We will take a little recess, if you want to refresh yourself, you may step out. That is perfectly all right.

Mrs. OSWALD. One thing, of course I am not supposed to tell you what to do, I know and I don't mean to, Chief Justice, but since this man was reassigned to guard me in Fort Worth I would like to know if he was free or if he was taken off another assignment to come to Fort Worth to guard me for this trip? Because it is the same man, understand?

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, I think in regard to that I had better state on the record we had nothing to do, that is the Commission or myself, about the selection of any of the personnel. We just asked the Secret Service to handle it and so we don't at this time know what the answer is to your question.

Mrs. OSWALD. Thank you.

(Short recess.)

The CHAIRMAN. All right, Mr. Rankin, you may continue.

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, we have this transcript at this time that we are ready to play now and it starts out with Robert Oswald's testimony or answers and questions like the transcription, written transcription states at the head of it, and I think it might be helpful if we just start with that and we can move on if you wish to with the other.

The CHAIRMAN. All right.

(Playing of tape recording.)

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, this is about 3 pages out of around between 13 and 14 of your son's transcription. Do you recognize your son's voice?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I have to listen really, it is a recorder, I am sure, but I have to, you know, listen, that story is right. There are two discrepancies so far as dates.

Mr. RANKIN. But you do recognize it? It sounds like him?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, it sounds like him. It is the recorder.

Mr. RANKIN. Is it all right for us to pass down to yours at this time?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, and I want the time on it.

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Mrs. OSWALD. That would be how many pages? About the 2 months he made an error, it is June 13 and they were in my home with me by July 14.

(Transcription played.)

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, do you have any problem about that being your voice on the tape?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, but I think probably the rest of it is my voice. I had a news conference at the Fort Worth Press Club at Fort Worth, Tex., that I was on tape for 2 hours.

Now, here is what--this is probably a little over 10 minutes to hear "Pardon me, you will have to excuse me." And there was a lot of break there. That is exactly 10 minutes. I have testified that at the Inn of Six Flags I talked for about 10 minutes and then I stopped because my son was crying, and I still say I testified for 10 minutes approximately at the Inn of Six Flags.

I had a press conference at the Fort Worth Press Club, that can be verified that I talked for over 2 hours that I was on tape. I was sitting on a desk with many, many reporters because this was when it just happened, and we had a lot of reporters, and in the back of me was a man, and everything I said was on this tape, and it was over 2 hours that I talked at this press club.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you say the things that you say here?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. In answer to these questions?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, and all through here is my story, yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. At the press club?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I talked for 2 hours.

Mr. RANKIN. And you didn't say it to this agent?

Mrs. OSWALD. I said, and I am going to continue to say this, that I had approximately 10 minutes interview at the Inn of Six Flags, and then the telephone rang and Robert came out and started crying, and I said I see my son crying so now all my thoughts have left me and I was not interviewed any further at the Inn of Six Flags, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. On this tape you heard a little child talking, didn't you?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, that is right.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, was there a little child like that at this----

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, June was at the Inn of the Six Flags and if I am as smart as they are and if they are as smart as I am, there could be a little child crying all during the rest of the testimony.

Mr. RANKIN. I see, but there wasn't a little child at the place where you gave your press conference?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, but I am not familiar with--but couldn't a tape be added and spliced and couldn't a child voice be put in? I am just saying, because I have said before and I am saying now I was taped for about 10 minutes, just where this business came in was exactly 10 minutes, "Pardon me," now I spoke for over two and a half hours at the Fort Worth Press Club and was taped there.

What they can do with that tape, I don't know.

Mr. RANKIN. Who asked you the questions when you were answering them at the Fort Worth Press Club?

Mrs. OSWALD. Now, it was not in this sequence, answer and questions. So, I am saying, I do not know how they can get my voice and do the tape and answering questions for the rest, but gentlemen, I am not out of my mind and I have said this over and over publicly, that I have never been interviewed, answer and question, but for about 10 minutes at the Inn of the Six Flags.

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, then I would like to go down about 5 or 6 minutes more maybe and see what it sounds like and the background if we play for just a few minutes.

The CHAIRMAN. All right.

Mr. RANKIN. Would you drop down for another 5 minutes? Skip about 5 minutes, please.

Mrs. OSWALD. After you start may I say something else?

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Mrs. OSWALD. All of this here I have said and also said in my home and I have testified that there was a tape recorder in my home brought in by Mr. Max Phillips, Mr. Rankin. Why can't--I don't know anything about tape but it can be spliced and edited and so forth, that much I know because when I have talked for reporters, they don't use everything I say. They splice.

Mr. RANKIN. But you recognize, Mrs. Oswald, it would be quite a job to splice in each one of those questions.

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, the assassination of the President of the United States and a scapegoat for it would be quite a job, it would be worth while, yes, sir, I realize that.

Mr. RANKIN. Let's try a little more.

(Transcription played.)

Mr. RANKIN. Do you want to say anything more about this?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I do. I haven't gone through all of this. I have made the statement over and over that my conversation was stopped. It was approximately a 10-minute conversation and it was stopped with the remark "I see my son crying. All my thoughts have left me."

Is that remark in this any place?

Mr. RANKIN. I don't recall that it is.

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, we will have to recall, because this, I have stated and was said and that is when I stopped the conversation at the Inn of the Six Flags. Robert came out crying because he couldn't get a minister and I said, "I see my son crying, now all my thoughts have left me," and the interview stopped at the Inn of Six Flags which I have testified was approximately 10 minutes.

Now, sir, there was a microphone in my home. This is not news to anybody. I have said this over and over and over. The ordinary layman by now knows my whole story, Chief Justice Warren. There was Mr. Max Phillips who had a microphone in my home. I testified on tape for over 2 hours at--talked at the Fort Worth Club, which would be, it is the same story over and over, I have told you all the same story that you already have here.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes, but it wasn't the same man interrogating you at this place as it was at this hotel, was it?

Mrs. OSWALD. About now--I don't know if this is the same man on the whole tape because I haven't listened to it. No, no one interrogated me at the Fort Worth Press Club, sir. I talked, there was an open press.

The CHAIRMAN. But it is the same voice we are hearing now asking you questions as at the beginning of this tape, isn't it?

Mrs. OSWALD. That is correct. I have just stated, since this is a very big operation, that this could be edited and this man's voice put on there. This I know, because the radio stations called me and they edited what I do. Isn't this possible, that this could be edited, and that this man asked the questions and then my voice be put in. It would be a big job but I am asking isn't that possible? I swear that I have never had answers and questions of this sort, gentlemen.

The CHAIRMAN. Shall we turn over about 10 minutes more and see if the same voices are in it there?

(Transcription played.)

Mrs. OSWALD. I am not sure but I think it was possible it was an editor that he put me on there.

(Transcription played.)

The CHAIRMAN. Well, Mrs. Oswald, those are the same voices.

Mrs. OSWALD. That is Mr. Mike Howard's voice, yes, sir, I recognize his voice, yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. And that is your voice?

Mrs. OSWALD. That is my voice.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Mrs. OSWALD. But I am not going to vary from my story.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes, all right.

Mrs. OSWALD. That is an interview just 10 minutes at the Inn of Six Flags and that was the only time when going to the courthouse and asked for the FBI of Lee getting the money to come home from the State Department and Congressman Wright knew about it and they left and they didn't even come back and talk to me, sir, yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Play just the last part.

Mrs. OSWALD. The last 25 minutes.

Mr. RANKIN. These last remarks that we listened to were on page 13.

(Transcription played.)

The CHAIRMAN. Those are the same two voices, Howard's voice and your voice.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I say those are the two same voices, Mr. Mike Howard's voice, yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. That is on page 21 of the transcript. Mr. Chairman, do you think there is any need for any more?

The CHAIRMAN. I don't see any need for going any further with it.

Mrs. Oswald says she didn't have this interview, these questions were not asked of her and these answers given but she does identify the voices as being hers and all we have is her word, and this tape, and the transcription at the present time. So for the moment, I suppose we will just have to leave it where it is.

I don't see any other answer to it.

Mrs. OSWALD. All right.

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, I have shown you during a recess what has been marked as Exhibit 271, and you have examined the handwriting of that exhibit.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. And the various letters there. Can you tell us whether or not those handwritings on those various letters are those of your son, Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mrs. OSWALD. It looks like his handwriting, I would say so. I am not handwriting expert. It looks very much like his writing.

Mr. RANKIN. Thank you. We offer in evidence Exhibit 271.

The CHAIRMAN. It will be admitted.

(The document was received in evidence as Commission Exhibit No. 271.)

Mr. RANKIN. We understand, Mr. Doyle, that you have examined the original documents of Exhibits 244 through 257, and compared them with the photostatic copies that have been marked.

Mr. DOYLE. I have.

Mr. RANKIN. And stipulate for the record that the photostats are correct, of the originals, is that agreeable?

Mr. DOYLE. I do.

Mr. RANKIN. Thank you.

Mr. Chairman, I have nothing further unless Mrs. Oswald has something or Mr. Doyle cares to interrogate Mrs. Oswald about anything.

The CHAIRMAN. Mrs. Oswald, do you have anything more you want to say?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, I don't have anything more. Do you have any questions, Mr. Doyle?

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Doyle, do you have anything to say?

Mr. DOYLE. I have no further questions, no.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, thank you very much, Mrs. Oswald, for appearing voluntarily before the Commission and giving your testimony, and Mr. Doyle, I want to express the appreciation of the Commission for the help you have been to Mrs. Oswald and to the Commission in representing her on this occasion. We know that it disrupted your week very badly. We know that you responded to this call for public service on a moment's notice, and we appreciate it all the more because of that.

My own personal thanks to you in addition to those of the Commission.

Mr. DOYLE. Thank you, Your Honor. I assume that my designation was for the purpose of the hearing and with the conclusion that will have finished my job.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. Unless Mrs. Oswald should like to ask you some questions about the matter at the conclusion of the testimony, I think that will be all.

Mr. DOYLE. Very well.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you both.

Mrs. OSWALD. You and I are through as attorney and client?

Mr. DOYLE. Yes.

Mrs. OSWALD. This will not be pursued any further?

Mr. DOYLE. Unless you have some questions, thank you.

Mrs. OSWALD. Gentlemen, you are making a very big mistake. I thank you very much for inviting me here.

The CHAIRMAN. I don't understand you.

Mrs. OSWALD. I think you are making a very big mistake not pursuing this further because I have told important people about this particular incident and I say it is correct and I hope you will continue while I am gone not just to ignore what I have said.

The CHAIRMAN. Mrs. Oswald, you misjudge the Commission when you say we will not pursue it further.

Mrs. OSWALD. Fine, I don't know, I am asking.

The CHAIRMAN. You may be sure we will pursue it further.

Mrs. OSWALD. Thank you, and I have more people that I could call. I have told Mr. Doyle the people.

Would you like me to name the people on the record for you? Mr. Lane, I called Mr. Lane----

The CHAIRMAN. To what purpose are you naming these people?

Mrs. OSWALD. To the purpose that Mr. Mike Howard who came to Fort Worth last week to protect me, I called these people and told them how concerned I was that he was the one.

The CHAIRMAN. I think you have told us what you told them, so that we have it here in the record now.

We are adjourned.

(Whereupon, at 5:15 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)

_Thursday, February 20, 1964_

TESTIMONY OF ROBERT EDWARD LEE OSWALD

The President's Commission met at 9:30 a.m., on February 20, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.

Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Cooper, Representative Hale Boggs, Representative Gerald R. Ford, and Allen W. Dulles, members.

Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel; Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel; William McKenzie, attorney for Robert Edward Lee Oswald and Leon Jaworski, special counsel to the attorney general of Texas.

The CHAIRMAN. Gentlemen, the Commission will be in order.

I will make a brief statement for the benefit of Mr. McKenzie and Mr. Oswald, so you will know just what this is about.

On November 29, 1963, President Lyndon B. Johnson issued Executive Order No. 11130, appointing a Commission "to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of the late President John F. Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of the man charged with the assassination."

On December 13, 1963, Congress adopted Joint Resolution S.J. 137, which authorizes the Commission or any member of the Commission or any agent or agency designated by the Commission for such purpose to administer oaths and affirmations, examine witnesses, and receive evidence.

On January 21, 1964, the Commission adopted a resolution authorizing each member of the Commission, and its General Counsel, J. Lee Rankin, to administer oaths and affirmations, examine witnesses, and receive evidence concerning any matters under investigation by the Commission.

The purpose of this hearing is to take the testimony of Mr. Robert Oswald, the brother of Lee Harvey Oswald, who prior to his death was charged with the assassination of President Kennedy.

Since the Commission is inquiring fully into the background of Lee Harvey Oswald and those associated with him, it is the intention of the Commission to ask Mr. Robert Oswald questions concerning Lee Harvey Oswald on any and all matters relating to the assassination.

The Commission also intends to ask Mr. Robert Oswald questions relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. Mr. Robert Oswald has also been furnished with a copy of this statement and a copy of the rules adopted by the Commission for the taking of testimony and the production of evidence. Mr. Robert Oswald has also been furnished with a copy of Executive Order No. 11130, and Congressional Resolution S.J. No. 137, which set forth the general scope of the Commission's inquiry and its authority for examining witnesses and receiving evidence.

That is just for your general information, Mr. Oswald.

You are here with your attorney, Mr. McKenzie.

Would you state your name for the Commission?

Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Chief Justice and members of the Commission, my name is William A. McKenzie. Our office is 631 Fidelity Union Life Building, Dallas, Tex. I am a member of the State Bar of Texas and licensed to practice before the Supreme Court of that State.

The CHAIRMAN. And you are here to advise and represent Mr. Robert Oswald?

Mr. McKENZIE. I am here to advise and represent Mr. Oswald. And I might state, further, that Mr. Oswald will freely give answers to any questions that the Commission might desire to ask of him.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much.

There are present at the Commission this morning Mr. Allen Dulles, Commissioner, and myself. I will be leaving fairly shortly to attend a session of the Supreme Court, but in my absence Mr. Allen Dulles will conduct the hearing.

Mr. Oswald, would you please rise and be sworn?

Do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God, in all of these proceedings at which you are to testify?

Mr. OSWALD. I do.

Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Chief Justice, if you may pardon me for just a second. In coming down to the Commission's hearing room, I left part of my file in Mr. Jenner's office, and I have asked Mr. Liebeler if he will step out and get the file.

The CHAIRMAN. You would like to wait for that?

Mr. McKENZIE. If you don't mind.

The CHAIRMAN. I might add, while we are waiting for that to come back, that Mr. Albert Jenner, one of the associate counsel for the Commission, will conduct the examination this morning.

Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.

I would like to state for the record that I have furnished to Mr. Jenner and Mr. Liebeler this morning a letter dated February 17, 1964, dictated by myself, but signed by Robert L. Oswald and witnessed by Pete White, Joan Connelly, and Henry Baer, which I would like for the Commission to have a copy of, and which I furnished to the Commission.

And, further, that I have furnished to Mr. Jenner and Mr. Liebeler, counsel for the Commission, a letter dated February 18, 1964, signed by Mrs. Marina N. Oswald and witnessed by Declan P. Ford, Katherine N. Ford, and Joan Connelly.

The reason that I furnish these letters to the Commission I think will be obvious from a reading of the letters, and, secondly, will likewise explain my position to some extent.

And, further, I have furnished to Mr. Jenner and Mr. Liebeler letters dated February 18, 1964, addressed to Mr. James H. Martin, 11611 Farrar, Dallas, Tex., signed by myself, and likewise signed by Marina N. Oswald, and witnessed by Katherine Ford, a copy of which I furnished to Mr. Lee Rankin, counsel for the Commission; and a letter of like date, February 18, 1964, addressed to Mr. John M. Thorne, Thorne and Leach, Attorneys and Counselors-at-Law, of Grand Prairie, Tex., signed by Mrs. Marina N. Oswald, and witnessed by Mrs. Katherine Ford.

I furnish these to the Commission for the Commission's information.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. Thank you very much, Mr. McKenzie.

Is there anything, Mr. McKenzie, you would like to know about our procedure that you are not acquainted with? It is very informal.

Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Chief Justice, I will say this. This is the first time I have had the privilege of appearing before such a distinguished group of citizens of this country, headed by yourself, and that we are ready to proceed.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Jenner?

Mr. JENNER. Thank you, Mr. Chief Justice.

May I suggest the wisdom of identifying each of these series of four letters with an exhibit number, and may the reporter supply me with the next number.

The first letter mentioned by Mr. McKenzie is the letter dated February 17, 1964, addressed to Mr. McKenzie, and signed by Mr. Robert L. Oswald, witnessed by Mr. Henry Baer, Joan Connelly, and Peter White. That will be marked Commission Exhibit No. 272.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 272, for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. The second letter mentioned by Mr. McKenzie is dated February 18, 1964, also addressed to Mr. McKenzie, signed by Mrs. Marina N. Oswald, and witnessed by Declan P. Ford, Katherine N. Ford, and Joan Connelly. That will be marked Commission Exhibit 273.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 273, for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. The next letter is dated February 18, 1964, and addressed to Mr. James H. Martin, identified by Mr. McKenzie, and signed by Mrs. Marina N. Oswald, witnessed by Mrs. Katherine Ford. Two pages.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 274 for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. The next and last of the series is a letter of the same date, February 18, 1964, addressed to Mr. Thorne, John M. Thorne, signed by Mrs. Marina N. Oswald, and witnessed by Mrs. Katherine Ford, two pages.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 275 for identification.)

Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, if I may at this time, I would like to make one other statement to the Commission.

The CHAIRMAN. Before you do that, may I ask if you want those introduced into evidence?

Mr. JENNER. Yes. Thank you, Mr. Chief Justice.

I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibits 272 through 275, inclusive, the documents that have been so identified and marked.

The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted.

(The documents heretofore marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 272 through 275, inclusive, for identification, were received in evidence.)

The CHAIRMAN. Now, Mr. McKenzie?

Mr. McKENZIE. Thank you, Mr. Chief Justice.

We have brought with us the original copies of various letters received from--dating from 1959 through 1962, from Lee Harvey Oswald to Robert L. Oswald, together with some copies of a contract between Mr. Oswald--Robert Oswald, Marina Oswald, John Thorne, and James Martin. We bring those voluntarily and gladly. I would like to give them to the Commission with the understanding and stipulation that they will not be released to the press or to any news media, with the exception and understanding of your final report.

The CHAIRMAN. That is the only purpose we would have in having them, and we will not release them to the press or to any other person.

Mr. McKENZIE. I understand that, sir. And the only reason I make that stipulation is for the record.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes. With the understanding that the Commission will use it for any purpose that is within the scope of the Executive order.

Mr. McKENZIE. Absolutely.

The CHAIRMAN. And for no other purpose.

Mr. McKENZIE. Absolutely.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you want to keep the originals and have copies made for us, or do you want to leave the originals with us?

Mr. McKENZIE. Well, sir, we have already started making the copies this morning.

The CHAIRMAN. That is all right. Either way you want to do it.

Mr. McKENZIE. Whichever way the Commission would prefer.

But we have started making copies this morning.

The CHAIRMAN. That is all right, then. You may do it that way.

Mr. Jenner, I guess you may proceed.

Mr. JENNER. Thank you, Mr. Chief Justice.

We have made copies of a number of the originals, additional ones of which are also being made. And as I identify the documents, I will be asking leave to introduce photostatic or xerox copies of the originals, and I will so indicate at the appropriate moment.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chief Justice, Mr. Dulles--we have had a very short session with Mr. McKenzie and Mr. Oswald, which has been pleasant and of the character indicated here, with full cooperation by both gentlemen. And we have explained to Mr. Oswald that this particular phase of the matter covers Lee Harvey Oswald's entire life, and I added it also covered Mr. Oswald's life.

At times the particular thrust of the examination might not be particularly apparent to Mr. McKenzie, but he is at liberty to inquire as the case might be. But we are covering the entire lives.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Oswald, would you be good enough to state your full name?

Mr. OSWALD. Robert Edward Lee Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. And you reside now where?

Mr. OSWALD. At 1009 Sierra Drive, Denton, Tex.

Mr. JENNER. What is your present business or occupation?

Mr. OSWALD. I am employed by the Acme Brick Co. in the capacity of sales coordinator.

Mr. JENNER. What city or town?

Mr. OSWALD. Denton, Tex.

Mr. JENNER. What is the nature of your employment by that company?

Mr. OSWALD. I am in the market department of the Acme Brick Co., coordinating between the marketing and plant department, scheduling the plant's production, processing and handling all orders, correspondence relating to the orders, and generally following through in the line of customers service, from prior to placing the orders by various customers, architects, home builders and so forth, to the completion of the invoices.

Mr. JENNER. And how long have you been so employed by the Acme Brick Co.?

Mr. OSWALD. April of this year, 1964, will be 4 years.

Mr. JENNER. And I think it might be helpful at this point--what is the date of your birth?

Mr. OSWALD. April 7, 1934, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Can you tell me how many years old you are?

Mr. OSWALD. I will be 30 years old April 7, 1964.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Jenner, if you excuse me now, I am going to attend a session of the Supreme Court. And if you are here this afternoon, I will be back to be with you.

Mr. DULLES (presiding). You may proceed, Mr. Jenner.

Mr. JENNER. Thank you. Mr. Dulles.

Would you identify your family--Mrs. Oswald, and your two fine children?

Mr. OSWALD. Thank you. My wife's name is Vada Marie Oswald. My daughter's name is Cathy Marie Oswald, and my son's name is Robert Lee Edward Oswald, Jr.

Mr. JENNER. The ages?

Mr. OSWALD. Cathy is 6 years old, and Robert Lee will be 3 years old this April.

Mr. JENNER. Would you give us Mrs. Oswald's maiden name?

Mr. OSWALD. Vada Marie Mercer.

Mr. JENNER. She is a native of your present town?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. She is from Keeter, Tex. My wife was raised on a farm. This community is located close to Boyd, Tex., which is approximately 35 miles northwest of Fort Worth.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Your father's full name?

Mr. OSWALD. Robert Edward Lee Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. Edward?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And he is now deceased?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And as I recall, he died in August of 1939.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. You were then about what--5 years old?

Mr. OSWALD. Five years old, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Now, your mother is Marguerite Oswald?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall her middle name?

Mr. OSWALD. Claverie.

Mr. JENNER. And what was her maiden name?

Mr. OSWALD. I don't remember.

Mr. JENNER. I think it was Claverie. You have a brother, John Pic?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. John Edward Pic.

Mr. JENNER. And he is a stepbrother?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And born of a marriage of your mother with whom?

Mr. OSWALD. Pardon me. He is a half brother.

Mr. McKENZIE. He is a half brother, Mr. Jenner.

Mr. JENNER. I am sorry to say that meant the same thing to me. But I am probably in error. A half brother.

Mr. OSWALD. I am sorry. I didn't hear the next question.

Mr. JENNER. That is all right. You correct me when I am wrong. Don't hesitate to do that.

Your half brother's father was whom?

Mr. OSWALD. This I do not know. I don't know his full name.

Mr. JENNER. Was it John, to the best of your recollection?

Mr. OSWALD. I would be of the opinion it was John.

Mr. JENNER. Have you ever met him?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not.

Mr. JENNER. You never had any acquaintance with him?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. I might further say I don't believe I have ever seen a picture identified as being John's father.

Mr. DULLES. You are speaking of the father now?

Mr. JENNER. That is correct, sir.

And your half brother, John Pic, is older than you, is he not?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Do you happen to recall his age?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he is now 33 years old. His birthday is January 17, 1932.

Mr. JENNER. During your lifetime, you have had contact with him, have you not?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And as boys, the family lived together?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Now, your mother, Mrs. Marguerite Claverie Oswald, was married a third time, was she not?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. To whom?

Mr. OSWALD. Mr. Edwin, I believe his middle initial was M. Ekdahl.

Mr. JENNER. When did that marriage take place, to the best of your recollection?

Mr. OSWALD. 1944 or early '45.

Mr. JENNER. Were you present on that occasion?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I was not.

Mr. JENNER. Had you become acquainted with him prior to the time of the marriage of your mother to Mr. Ekdahl?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I certainly did.

Mr. JENNER. Would you indicate the general circumstances?

Mr. OSWALD. Well, we was residing at Dallas, Tex. I don't recall the address. It was Victor Street.

Mr. JENNER. When you say "we"----

Mr. OSWALD. It was my mother, John Edward Pic, myself, and Lee Harvey Oswald.

Residing at the Victor Street address, in Dallas, Tex. I recall that perhaps more numerous occasions he was there--now I can say three or four times he was around the house prior to the marriage.

Mr. JENNER. And what was the nature of your mother's employment, if she was employed, in the period immediately preceding the marriage of your mother to Mr. Ekdahl?

Mr. OSWALD. I am sorry, sir, I don't remember.

Mr. JENNER. But she was employed?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I do recall that this was quite a large house. It was a two-story house. And she was renting apartments.

Mr. JENNER. Serving as a rental agent?

Mr. OSWALD. No. She owned the house, to my knowledge--she owned this house. I believe there were two upstairs apartments.

Mr. JENNER. In addition to that, was your mother separately or independently employed--that is independently from----

Mr. OSWALD. I believe so, sir. Where, I do not recall.

Mr. JENNER. And at that time all three of you boys were attending--would that be elementary school at that time?

Mr. OSWALD. Elementary school, that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. In Dallas?

Mr. OSWALD. Lee was not.

Mr. JENNER. I beg your pardon?

Mr. OSWALD. This would have been prior to Lee's sixth birthday, I believe, and he would not be attending at that particular time.

Mr. JENNER. But you and your brother John were?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Would you be good enough to tell the Commission as much as you can recall, especially of your early life--elementary school days. We are not going to probe into this in any great length. But we would like the background and flavor in which the family lived.

Start as early as you have any reasonable recollection.

Mr. OSWALD. All right, sir.

I believe after my father's death in 1939, John was attending elementary school. We lived at the corner of Alvar and Galvez, in New Orleans, La. And the school was right across the street from us, elementary school.

John, of course, started----

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, sir.

Did I ask you where you were born?

Mr. OSWALD. No, you did not.

Mr. JENNER. Would you state that?

Mr. OSWALD. I was born in New Orleans, La.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Excuse the interruption.

Mr. OSWALD. John attended the school approximately 2 years before I started elementary school. And during this time, the way I remember it, it was a frame building. But by the time I attended first grade it was a brick school building.

I do not recall attending for a very long period, because I believe----

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the name of the elementary school?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, if I may interrupt at this time--Robert, in giving this narrative, tie it down as closely as you possibly can to date, to names, to street addresses--just give us as complete detail as you possibly can.

Mr. OSWALD. All right, sir.

Mr. McKENZIE. The names of the school, the names of your teachers, and so forth, if you recall.

Mr. OSWALD. I believe I was at the point that I don't recall attending this school very much. I perhaps was there the first full year. However, approximately around this time--this would be in 1941--mother placed John Edward and myself in a Catholic school, which I do not recall the name of, but it was located in Algiers, La.

Mr. JENNER. Is that a suburb of New Orleans?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. McKENZIE. Just across the Mississippi River from New Orleans proper.

Mr. DULLES. Could I ask a question, Mr. Jenner?

In this school, did you live there, and spend the night there--you were living there all the time?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Or were you going home?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; we were living there.

Lee, of course, at this time, was still very young, and he stayed with mother. I don't recall any address particularly at that time. We were at the Catholic school for approximately 1 year.

Mr. JENNER. That would take you to 1942.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

And, at that time we were moved by mother from the Catholic school and placed into the Bethlehem Orphan Home, in New Orleans, La.

We used to refer to it as the BOH.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, sir, if I interrupt you at that point.

That would be 1942?

Mr. OSWALD. The best I can remember.

Mr. JENNER. Lee was only 3 years old. So the "we" did not include Lee, is that correct, sir?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. It included John Edward and myself.

Mr. JENNER. As Mr. Dulles inquired of you at the Catholic school--was this an orphan home in which both you and John lived at the home?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Twenty-four hours a day?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Where did Lee reside during this period of your life?

Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall the address at that particular time.

I might state that I know mother had sold the house on Alvar and Galvez Streets in New Orleans, and they were living elsewhere, I remember the house, but I cannot remember the address.

Mr. JENNER. I was particularly interested in whether Lee was living with your mother.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. He was at this time living with mother. And it is my understanding from her, during later years, discussing with her, that she had various maids or housekeepers come in to keep Lee at this early age.

Mr. JENNER. So, I take it, she was employed.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Was she also employed during the 1 year when you boys were at the Catholic school?

Mr. OSWALD. I am sure--I feel sure she was, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Could we say, except as I might return to the subject specifically, that from the time of the death of your father, in August of 1939, at least until the time of her marriage with Mr. Ekdahl, she was always employed, either continuously or with short breaks?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; we certainly can.

Mr. JENNER. She was the sole support, as far as you know, of your family?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

I interrupted you--pardon me.

You and John entered the Bethlehem Orphan Home. Would you describe to us the nature of that school?

Mr. OSWALD. Well----

Mr. JENNER. Was it a public or private institution?

Mr. OSWALD. I would say it was a private home. The atmosphere generally--of course all the boys and girls were separated--I recall just one large dormitory building, sleeping area and so forth. The cafeteria was located----

Mr. DULLES. Could you tell us about how many there were in this orphanage, roughly? Was it 50, 100, 200?

Mr. OSWALD. I would say around 75 to 100, sir.

Mr. JENNER. So you are now about 8 years old, am I correct?

Mr. OSWALD. 1942--that would be correct, sir.

The cafeteria was located in a separate, or perhaps a wing of this large dormitory building. The school area was located in a separate building towards the entrance of the home. There was quite a large playground there, and quite a large playroom within that large dormitory.

Mr. McKENZIE. The home itself was located in New Orleans, is that correct?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. In the city proper, rather than a suburb?

Mr. OSWALD. I would say that was so, sir. I still recall that it was pretty close to the end of the St. Charles Street carline at that particular time.

My recollection of the atmosphere and the general conditions there--it was nice, I had a lot of friends there at the home. It was a Christian atmosphere.

Going back to the Catholic school--we had to go to church every morning and so forth like that.

But here at the tables and so forth we had our grace and such as that. It was generally a Christian atmosphere there. He treated us well, I might add--better than the Catholic school did. They were not as strict as far as discipline was concerned, but they certainly kept us in line.

Mr. DULLES. Could I ask a question there?

Was this a denominational school, or a publicly maintained school?

Mr. OSWALD. I don't believe it was a denominational school. I believe it was a public--I feel it was a private school or home. But that the religious background did not have anything to do with it. It might have been just a Protestant home.

Mr. JENNER. I am curious, if I may, Mr. Dulles--the name of this school or home is the Bethlehem Orphan Home. But neither of you boys was an orphan.

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. I take it, then, that apart from the name of the school, there were orphans and young people, children such as you, whose mothers, or perhaps fathers, were unable to take care of them during the daytime completely, and the school accepted children under those circumstances.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is my understanding.

Mr. JENNER. Therefore, it was not exclusively for orphans?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. DULLES. I think I have read somewhere--I would like to ask, if I may--I understand there had to be only one parent, though. I don't think if you had two parents you were eligible for this school. I don't know where I read that, but I recollect that.

Is that the case, do you remember?

Mr. OSWALD. My recollection on that, sir, was that I do recall mother saying something that there was a little difficulty in placing us in there, because we were not orphans. But that they had from time to time made exceptions to this, where one parent was living and unable to attend the children fully during the day and so forth, and even at night.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you entered in 1942. Did you and John continue in this school--for what period of time?

Mr. OSWALD. Until we moved to Dallas, in 1944, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Before we get to that, has Mr. Oswald responded to the questions you had in mind, to describe the nature of the school?

Mr. DULLES. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Were you visited by your mother and Lee to the extent that she brought him along, when you and John were in the Bethlehem Orphan Home?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; we were. I do recall quite vividly that on Wednesdays--this perhaps might have been during the summer months only--that John and I would go to downtown New Orleans and meet mother at her place of employment, and either spend the afternoon with her, or she would give us money to go to a movie or something. And at this time mother was employed as a manager or assistant manager of a hosiery shop located on Canal Street. I don't recall the name of it, or the exact address of it.

Mr. JENNER. Would you be good enough to inform the Commission to the best of your recollection about weekends? Did your mother visit you on weekends? Were you free to return home and spend the weekend? Describe that, please.

Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall on the weekends--a weekend, I should say, that we visited mother. Normally, we just saw her once a week at that particular time. I do not recall--I have been thinking about this--seeing Lee too often at that time.

Mr. JENNER. You and John would be naturally curious to see him once in awhile?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I know we did. I cannot remember it too clearly.

But I would say that it wasn't too frequently that we did see Lee.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you moved to Dallas in 1944?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Was there anything unusual prior to the time you moved to Dallas about your life and your relationships with your mother and with Lee, if any? Was there an event that is now etched on your mind?

Mr. OSWALD. I would like to back up there just a little bit.

Lee was placed at the Bethlehem Orphan Home for approximately the last year that we were there.

Mr. JENNER. That would be, then, 1943?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

Mr. DULLES. He would have been 4 to 5 years old then?

Mr. JENNER. Yes. He was born in October 1939. So he would then be approximately 4--well, when he was placed in Bethlehem Home it was some time during the year 1943, to the best of your recollection?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Would you be good enough to relate to the Commission the circumstances that brought that about? What do you recall as to why?

Mr. OSWALD. My opinion on that, sir, was this. That mother had wanted to bring Lee to the home at an earlier date, but that they had a minimum age required before he could be placed in there, because they did not have any real small children there. I mean there was no nursery there that I recall. And there was no very young children. When I say very young--say under 3 years old.

I remember some children there that perhaps were four or three and a half years old.

Mr. JENNER. I take it, Mr. Oswald, your mother put Lee in the orphan home at the first opportunity open to her under the rules or policy of the Bethlehem Orphan Home in that respect.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Now, did she come to visit the home when Lee was placed in the home?

If I may, you recall you said you were free on Wednesdays, it may have been limited to the summer time, and you and John would go into the New Orleans town district and visit your mother.

Did she come to see Lee? Does that stimulate your recollection that she did come to visit?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; she did come to visit us. I recall after Lee was placed in the home, that all three of us would go down and visit mother, and we always took Lee with us.

Mr. JENNER. I see. What contact did you have with Lee in that 1-year period, in 1943, when he was with you boys in the home?

Mr. OSWALD. John and I both looked on Lee as our kid brother, and we stayed pretty close to him, and defended him whenever we had to.

Mr. JENNER. How did Lee get along during those days?

Let's confine it to up to 1944, when you moved to Dallas.

Mr. OSWALD. I don't recall any instance where it would stand out in my mind that he did not get along with anybody.

Mr. JENNER. He had the normal life of a 4-year-old at that particular time--got into his fights to the extent everyone else did?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. McKENZIE. You mean at the time he was 4 years old?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. There may be others who would be interested in his course of conduct and his reactions even at age 4. You will forgive me for going into that.

Mr. OSWALD. Certainly.

Mr. JENNER. But your present recollection, as far as Lee's relationship with other 4-year-olds or 5's or 3's, his general course of conduct, with regard to the interplay between himself and others at or near his age, is what you would describe as normal?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Now we are moving to Dallas in 1944. You brought out the fact that Lee became enrolled in Bethlehem Orphan Home, because I asked you questions whether there was anything unusual etched on your mind at that time that had occurred up to the point of your moving to Dallas. Was there anything else that this discussion, that is now stimulated that you would like to report?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I cannot think of anything else.

Mr. JENNER. Now, what was the reason you moved to Dallas?

Mr. OSWALD. I don't really know, sir. Of course we were quite happy to leave the Bethlehem Orphan Home. By that, I don't mean to imply that they didn't treat us well there. But, of course, we were quite happy to be with mother again, all of us together.

As to the reason why mother moved us to Dallas, I do not know.

Mr. JENNER. Now, when you moved to Dallas, you resided--can you recall the address or at least approximately where you lived in Dallas?

Mr. OSWALD. As I recall, it was Victor Street. It was a corner house, a large two-story white--I feel sure it was a frame white house. The garage was to the back side of the house. Victor Street ran in front of the house, and another street down the side where you entered the garage.

Mr. JENNER. I don't think I asked you this. It is a little bit out of order.

Do you happen to recall your brother John's date of birth?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; you did ask me that. It was January 17, 1932. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Thank you.

Your mother, did she become immediately employed in Dallas, or had she already arranged for employment in Dallas?

Mr. OSWALD. This I do not recall, sir. I feel more like that she perhaps had arranged for employment in Dallas before we moved there. I would think this would be the natural thing to do. We had never been to Texas before. And, to my knowledge, she didn't know anybody in Texas.

And why we moved to Dallas, I certainly don't recall any reason at all.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have any relatives in Dallas?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Where did Mr. Ekdahl reside? Was he living in or a native of Dallas?

Mr. OSWALD. I understand Mr. Ekdahl was from Boston, Mass., and he was at that time--I believe that is correct, sir--at least the way I remember it--employed by the Texas Electric Co.

Mr. JENNER. At what office?

Mr. OSWALD. At Dallas. It might not have been Texas Electric. Texas Power and Light, perhaps--something like that.

Mr. JENNER. But Mr. Ekdahl was then living in Dallas when you, your mother, your brother John, and your brother Lee moved to Dallas?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And had you become--you boys become acquainted with Mr. Ekdahl prior to the time you moved to Dallas?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And do you recall any discussion of Mr. Ekdahl prior to the time of your moving to Dallas?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Now, your education was, of course, continued when you moved to Dallas.

Would you tell us about that--all three of you? You and your brother John first, because Lee was not yet of school age.

Mr. OSWALD. All right, sir.

I recall the elementary school there in Dallas. It was the Davy Crockett Elementary School, which was approximately three or four blocks from the house.

Mr. DULLES. What was that name?

Mr. OSWALD. Davy Crockett.

Mr. JENNER. Both you and your brother John were enrolled?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. And there was--I believe it was a city park right across the street from this elementary school that I recall playing ping pong and croquet and swimming over there, and such as that.

Mr. JENNER. This period of your life, as you recall it, was a pleasant one?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And except for the restrictions that you and John encountered in the Catholic school and in the Bethlehem Orphan Home, what is your recollection of that early period of your life--subject to those limitations--normal and pleasant?

Mr. OSWALD. The only thing I can remember--I did have a little difficulty because I had something of a southern drawl.

Mr. JENNER. When you reached Texas?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. And I do recall having a little difficulty in school myself, to make myself clearly understood.

Mr. DULLES. May I ask a question there?

When you went to the Davy Crockett School, was that a school where you lived, or did you live at home and just attend the school during the school hours?

Mr. OSWALD. That was a public school in Dallas, and we did not live there. We lived at home.

Mr. DULLES. And your mother then was employed, as I understand it.

Mr. OSWALD. To the best of my knowledge--I feel certain she was employed.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the nature of her employment there?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. JENNER. She was employed full-time during the daytime, home on weekends?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Now, what was happening to Lee when you were living in Dallas--in the sense of who took care of him during the daytime, if anyone? What was done for his comfort?

Mr. OSWALD. This I don't remember, sir. I don't remember any housekeeper or any maid that mother had at this time. Something is coming into my mind about a day nursery. I think perhaps----

Mr. JENNER. A day nursery?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir--that Lee was taken to during the day when Mother was working, and brought home with her at night. I believe that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Would you boys take him to the day nursery and bring him home?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you play any part in that at all?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I do not have any recollection of taking Lee to the day nursery or bringing him back.

Mr. JENNER. Now, would you please indicate how long you remained in the Davy Crockett Elementary School, you and John?

Mr. OSWALD. Say for 1 year, sir, 1 school year.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Now, during this year, did you become acquainted with Mr. Ekdahl?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I would say towards the latter part of that school year.

Mr. JENNER. He could come--he did on occasion come to visit your mother's home?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Would you please indicate whether the contact that you boys had with Mr. Ekdahl about that--that is, he would visit the home occasionally?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did he take you boys out?

Mr. OSWALD. I don't recall. I think perhaps on maybe two occasions we did go to the zoo. I don't recall any other occasions.

Mr. JENNER. We now have you towards the latter part of the year--you were now 9 years old. Am I correct about that?

Mr. OSWALD. 1944, I would be 10 years old.

Mr. JENNER. Your brother John was 12?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And your brother Lee was then 5?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you continue--when did you change--you said you stayed at Davy Crockett Elementary School a year. And then you entered what school?

Mr. OSWALD. In the fall of that year we entered Chamberlain-Hunt Military Academy, at Port Gibson, Miss. That was the fall of 1945.

Mr. JENNER. You and John?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Now, what was the date that you gave me as to the marriage of your mother and Mr. Ekdahl?

Mr. OSWALD. Approximately the early part of 1944. That is what I stated before. And I think now that it would be more correct--after we completed the year at Davy Crockett, I believe they were married shortly after the end of the school year.

Mr. JENNER. That is in June, probably?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; somewhere along that time.

Mr. JENNER. And that would be--June of '44?

Mr. McKENZIE. June of '45.

Mr. JENNER. So that following the marriage of your mother and Mr. Ekdahl--what was his full name?

Mr. OSWALD. Edwin A. Ekdahl. I believe his middle initial was "A."

Mr. JENNER. And he was employed, as you stated, by a utility company in Dallas at that time?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Now, do you have a recollection or did you come to learn the arrangements, if any, between Mr. Ekdahl and your mother as to the financing of the attendance of yourself and your brother John at Chamberlain-Hunt Military Academy?

Mr. OSWALD. My mother told us that she was taking care of all the expenses at the Academy.

Mr. JENNER. She told you at this time?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. This is my recollection.

Mr. JENNER. And that was your understanding of both you and John at that particular time?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. That she was financing your attendance at the military academy?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Was she working at that time, or during the period that she was married to Mr. Ekdahl was she a housewife?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe after the marriage to Mr. Ekdahl, she was not working.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have a conversation with her, and did you then come to learn, or have you subsequently come to learn as to how she did finance your attendance at the military academy?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not. I assume at that particular time that--I did not know the quantity of life insurance that my father had when he passed away. I thought it was perhaps substantial. Perhaps to me at that time, a young age, $4,000 or $5,000 was a lot of money. From the insurance money, from my father's death, she was able to place us in this military school in Mississippi.

Mr. JENNER. Do I recall correctly that you also testified earlier that your mother sold--there was a home in New Orleans which was sold?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And possibly some of the proceeds of the sale of that home were still intact?

Mr. OSWALD. This would be my opinion, that it was. I do not know if the home was paid for or anything.

Mr. JENNER. This is all speculation?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, if I may interrupt.

Robert, don't speculate, and don't give any conjecture. Tell what you know, and give them the facts as fully as possible. But I am confident that the Commission is not interested in any speculation.

Mr. JENNER. And if you do speculate, tell us so.

Mr. McKENZIE. Yes--indicate that you are speculating.

Mr. DULLES. Do we know the amount of insurance on Mr. Oswald's life?

Mr. JENNER. I cannot give you the figure, but it is small.

Mr. DULLES. It is known in the record?

Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. May I ask a question?

Following your mother's marriage to Mr. Ekdahl, did he move in to the residence where you were living, or vice versa, or what were the circumstances?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. He did move into the home on Victor Street, following the marriage.

Mr. DULLES. You were living, though, in the military academy. Was that a school where you lived?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. You lived there?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Day and night?

Mr. OSWALD. During the period that we went to the military school, we stayed there day and night, through the 9 months of the school year.

Mr. JENNER. What was the distance from Dallas--in general--to the military school?

Mr. McKENZIE. It is approximately 600 or 700 miles.

Mr. OSWALD. It was 30 miles south of Vicksburg, Miss.

Mr. JENNER. Quite a distance?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. So you could not go home weekends?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; we did not go home weekends.

Mr. JENNER. From the time of the marriage of your mother to Mr. Ekdahl, to the time you boys left for military school, you all lived in the home on Victor Street?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. He moved into the home immediately upon the marriage?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one question?

Was there a summer holiday, then, when you went home from the military academy?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. You were home for 3 months, roughly?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. DULLES. That would be in the summer of '45?

Mr. OSWALD. The summer of '46.

Mr. JENNER. It might help if you tell us how long you and John remained at the military school.

Mr. OSWALD. Three school years.

Mr. JENNER. That would be in 1945, 1946, and 1947.

So that you left the military school approximately in June of 1947, is that correct?

Mr. OSWALD. That would be correct.

Mr. JENNER. '48 or '47?

Mr. OSWALD. Well, the school year would be 1945 through '46 would be 1 year, '46 through '47 would be 2 years, '47 through '48 would be the third year.

Mr. JENNER. All right. June of '48?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. And I might say there, when school--the last year that we were there, when school was completed, mother had indicated to us that she wanted us to go to summer school and stay up there that summer. And we did, John and I, stay there at the school after practically all the other ones had left, because I recall helping pack away some old Springfield rifles at that time in Cosmolene.

Mr. JENNER. The marriage of your mother and Mr. Ekdahl terminated in divorce, as I recall it.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall approximately when that was?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. I believe that this would be some time in '47. I believe she had divorced Mr. Ekdahl before our final year at the academy.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Liebeler will get the date. I don't recall it myself at the moment.

Did your mother and Mr. Ekdahl have occasion during this 3-year period, plus the summer school, to visit you and John in the military academy?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; they did. I recall Mr. Ekdahl coming there with mother and Lee in a 1939 Buick at that time, that I recall. I don't recall many occasions that Mr. Ekdahl was there. I might state that at Christmas time I believe on each year that we were up at the military school that we returned home. By home, I mean Fort Worth, or wherever they were living. One year I believe it was Benbrook, Tex., outside of Fort Worth.

Mr. JENNER. Now, would you be good enough, having mentioned that, to state for the record where your mother and Mr. Ekdahl resided during the period of time you were at the military school?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe the first year----

Mr. JENNER. Chronologically.

Mr. OSWALD. The first year that we attended there, Mr. Ekdahl was on the road quite a bit. And they had during the winter of 1945 gone to Boston, where they stayed, I would say, for approximately 6 months. I understand Mr. Ekdahl had been married and had a son by a prior marriage, and they had lived together, all of them--Lee, my mother, Mr. Ekdahl, and his son--in Boston. But that he was on the road quite a bit. And I recall a picture of mother and Lee in Arizona.

Mr. JENNER. Living in Arizona?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not living. On one of the trips.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

Representative FORD. One of the trips with Mr. Ekdahl?

Mr. OSWALD. Ekdahl, and mother and Lee had gone along with him. Whether this was a business trip or a vacation trip, I don't recall.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

Following their living for 6 months in Boston, where did they live thereafter, during that period of time, until the divorce?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe after they left Massachusetts, they moved to Benbrook, Tex., and resided at Benbrook, Tex.

Mr. JENNER. And where is Benbrook with respect to Dallas?

Mr. OSWALD. It is--well, with respect to Fort Worth, that to me would be easier to say, it is just a little ways northwest of Fort Worth, on the edge of the city limits of Fort Worth now. At this particular time it was just more or less a wide spot in the road. The house--I recall going there, perhaps this was during Christmas leave from the academy--the house was a good sized stone home that had some acreage with it. There was a creek that was perhaps 400 or 500 yards behind the house. I remember, I believe, right before we arrived on this first occasion, Lee had found a skunk out there. He didn't know what a skunk was, but he found out.

Mr. McKENZIE. Benbrook is a suburb of Fort Worth.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, Benbrook is a suburb of Fort Worth.

As I indicated, at that time----

Mr. JENNER. Could you fix the year?

Mr. OSWALD. This would be--I feel certain that this was the first year that we were in military school, and the first Christmas.

Mr. JENNER. The first Christmas. That would be Christmas 1945.

Mr. OSWALD. Pardon me. Let me back up earlier.

They were in Massachusetts at that time.

This would be the second year.

Mr. JENNER. I take it, then, the first Christmas, 1945, included the period when your mother, Mr. Ekdahl, and Lee resided in Boston with Mr. Ekdahl's son by a former marriage.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And that the living in Benbrook, Tex., followed the termination of the stay in Boston?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

But I do recall now the first Christmas that I was at the military school, because they were so far away, and it was impractical to travel that distance in that length of time--that John went with some friends of his that he made at the academy and stayed at their home--I don't recall where.

I remember I went with one of my friends and stayed at his home during Christmas.

Mr. JENNER. These were friends of yours in the academy?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. And their parents agreed to that--because they didn't want us to stay up in the academy at Christmas time more or less by ourselves. They wanted to have us with them.

Mr. JENNER. You seem to have a rather vivid recollection of the Benbrook, Tex., home. I take it that during a summer vacation you lived in Benbrook, Tex., with your mother and Mr. Ekdahl and Lee.

Mr. OSWALD. This particular house I refer to, a native stone home--I believe that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. So that you did have at least two summers at home while you were at the military academy, and the third summer your mother asked you to stay during summer school, and you did not come home?

Mr. OSWALD. She asked us, and it was the intent that we stay. But at the last moment we did not go to summer school that year at the academy. We did come to Fort Worth.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, may I interrupt you please?

Robert, when did you leave, or when did your mother sell the house on Victor Street in Dallas. Tex., if you recall?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe she sold it at the time that they moved to Boston, Mass.

Mr. McKENZIE. That was some time prior to Christmas of 1945, is that correct?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

If I may ask this, sir: If someone would furnish me the date of the divorce. I believe this would help tie down some other dates.

Mr. McKENZIE. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. McKENZIE. I want to assure the Commission and counsel that the copy of the transcript of Robert Oswald's testimony will not be given to the press until such time as the Commission makes its final report--if at that time.

Representative FORD. I think that is most important, that we don't indicate that they will never be given to the press.

Mr. DULLES. No. That was made clear before you came in--that this would be available for use in connection with the report in any way that the Commission saw fit.

Mr. JENNER. Is it all right to proceed, sir?

Mr. DULLES. Yes, please, Mr. Jenner.

Mr. JENNER. The second residence, then, was--I mean the second one during this particular period we were talking about, was in Benbrook, Tex.

How long, or over what period of time did your family reside in Benbrook, Tex.?

Mr. OSWALD. I would say at least approximately a year or a year and a half at that particular house.

Mr. JENNER. You say in that particular house. Did they occupy another home in Benbrook, Tex.?

Mr. OSWALD. This was--on our return from military school, the last year we attended, when we returned, mother had purchased a small home there in Benbrook, a little bit closer in to Fort Worth.

Mr. DULLES. This was after the divorce?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; this was after the divorce.

Representative FORD. She owned the original house in Benbrook?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not the stone house. I believe Mr. Ekdahl had rented that house, or leased it.

Representative FORD. Then she purchased this second house?

Mr. OSWALD. That is right. After the divorce, she purchased this smaller home.

Mr. JENNER. Until you boys returned from military academy, or at least until the time of the divorce of your mother and Mr. Ekdahl, she was not employed? She was home?

Mr. OSWALD. To my knowledge, that is correct. She was not employed at that time, or during the marriage to Mr. Ekdahl--she was not employed at any time I am aware of.

Mr. JENNER. And able to give the normal and full time and attention of a mother to her son, Lee?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, to the best of my knowledge.

Mr. JENNER. Well, during the summertime, when you did spend summer vacations back in Benbrook, Tex., you had an opportunity to observe personally on this subject, did you not?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. That your mother was not employed, and she was caring for Lee during that period?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did she have any assistance?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, she did not. None that I recall.

Mr. JENNER. No household help?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; none that I recall.

Mr. DULLES. Could I ask a question there? Maybe you are going to cover that. I would like to ask as to--was Lee Harvey going to kindergarten at this time, or where was he from an educational point of view?

He was 7 or 8 years old now.

Mr. JENNER. Yes. He was 8 years old--he was 6 years old when they moved to--the commencement of the military school period, your brother, Lee, was 6 years old?

Mr. OSWALD. Six years old.

Mr. JENNER. And that is about the time when you enter elementary school, is it not?

Mr. OSWALD. That I entered elementary school?

Mr. JENNER. No--children generally.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

I don't believe, however, though, that Lee at the age of 6 went to elementary school.

Mr. JENNER. Would you tell us what the circumstances were in that connection, to the best of your recollection, and now.

Mr. OSWALD. All right, sir. To the best of my recollection, it was that Mr. Ekdahl was traveling quite a bit, and that mother was traveling with him, and Lee did not attend a school during that year.

Mr. JENNER. Did Lee travel with them?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe that he did during that time.

Mr. JENNER. That is your best recollection?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is my best recollection.

Mr. JENNER. You are trying not to speculate.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. McKENZIE. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. JENNER. Back on the record.

Mr. McKENZIE. I believe, to my best recollection, that the school age--commencement age was 7 years old.

Mr. DULLES. I think what we are trying to get at is what was Lee doing--was he with the mother, was he in some kind of kindergarten?

Do you recall during those 3 years you were in the military academy--where was Lee?

Representative FORD. When you say the school age, in Texas, you mean the mandatory attendance age?

Mr. JAWORSKI. That is correct.

Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, that is what I have reference to.

Mr. JAWORSKI. I recall, if I may add, at the age of 6, children were normally sent to kindergarten in those days.

Mr. JENNER. As you have now related it to us, Mr. Oswald, in this period, let's call it the military school period because we have identified the time question--at the commencement Lee was then 6 years old. And as we now learn, normally that would be a kindergarten period.

He was traveling or accompanied his mother, your mother, and Mr. Ekdahl in their travels in connection with Mr. Ekdahl's business, and he was not either in kindergarten or otherwise in school.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I am of this opinion--he was not.

Mr. JENNER. And that was your information at the time that you and John were attending military school?

Mr. OSWALD. That would be correct, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Do you know where he was, and who was taking care of him during that period--if your mother was traveling with Mr. Ekdahl?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe Lee was going with them, sir, during these travels. I don't recall--other than this one photograph--at one time they were out in Arizona. I don't recall any other places that they traveled to. I am sure mother, she was writing us quite frequently, John and I, usually just one letter to both of us--any other names or areas that they had traveled during this period.

Mr. JENNER. Now, may we proceed to the succeeding school period, which would be the year '46-'47. He is now at that time 7 years of age. Your mother and Mr. Ekdahl and Lee were then residing in Benbrook, Tex.

Mr. OSWALD. Benbrook; yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did Lee enter elementary school at that time?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he did. I don't know if the school name was Benbrook School.

Mr. JENNER. It was an elementary school?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I know where it is located there and everything. I believe it is closed down now.

Mr. JENNER. You learned of this during the summer vacation, or from letters from your mother?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir--perhaps both--one way or the other during that period we were aware that Lee was attending school in Benbrook.

Mr. JENNER. Up to this point what were the relationships between yourself and your brother John? Cordial and normal brother relationships?

Mr. OSWALD. I might say then as now they were cordial. We always got along. He was a little bit older than I was, of course. He had his group of friends, I had mine. We got along just fine.

Mr. JENNER. And the relationship of your brother John and yourself on the one hand, and Lee on the other--let us take the 6- to 7- to 8-year-old period.

Mr. OSWALD. John and I both, I feel, especially from my side, that we were his big brothers, and when we were around Lee we took care of him. We played together, to some extent, anyway. Perhaps our interests were a little bit different than Lee's at that early age of his life--a spread of 5 years between Lee and I and 7 years between Lee and John.

Mr. JENNER. Yes. That is quite a gap.

A boy 6 years old who has a brother 11 years old--that would be you--and a brother 13 years old, that would be John--at that age, that is quite a gap.

Did you spend much time with him, for example, when you were home during the summer vacations?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I would say we did spend quite a bit of time--both John and I--with Lee.

I recall going fishing, things like that. But mostly I recall staying at the house at Benbrook, the native stone home, out there, and staying within the confines out there, and playing, and staying out there most of the time.

I do recall on a number of occasions that Mr. Ekdahl, my mother, and all three of us would drive into Fort Worth and go to the movie theater, which at that time was the closest one coming in from Benbrook into Fort Worth. I recall going there quite a few times.

Mr. JENNER. Would you relate for us as you recall now the relationships between you and John--between you boys and your mother? Was that a pleasant one? Were there any difficulties that you now recall? Personality-wise, for example.

Mr. OSWALD. None that I recall. At that time, I do recall one instance out there at the house, stone house there in Benbrook--my mother was a little upset with Mr. Ekdahl over the fact that--this was, I am sure, the second Christmas we were there from military school.

Mr. JENNER. That would be 1947?

Mr. OSWALD. That would be 1947, Christmas 1946. He was showering us with candies, cokes, and so forth. And mother thought that he was overdoing it. And we argued the other way. We was on Mr. Ekdahl's side.

Mr. JENNER. But your relations with your mother, as you recall them now, during this period were pleasant, normal, and you were having no difficulties with her?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; pleasant memories to me.

Mr. JENNER. Anything other than the difficulties two lively boys have when they are naughty?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Were you conscious at that time of the growing difficulty between your mother and Mr. Ekdahl? Was that apparent at that time? Or did that only come later?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. At that time, it was not apparent to me.

Mr. DULLES. At no time was that a factor in your life, particularly?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. I would say at no time it was. In moving up perhaps there to the time of the divorce and everything, I don't remember when Mr. Ekdahl moved out of the house. At that time we were living on Eighth Avenue in Fort Worth. This was during a summer period there. And I think this was the summer after the second year that we attended there--this would be the summer of 1947.

Mr. DULLES. If it is agreeable, I think we will adjourn for just a minute. It is now 11 o'clock.

Representative FORD. Mr. Dulles, may I suggest that we get what the law was in Texas at the time, as to when children mandatorily had to attend school? I think that can be checked out very simply and put in the record.

Mr. DULLES. Yes. I think that should be in the record.

(Brief recess.)

Mr. DULLES. The Commission will come to order. We will resume, Mr. Jenner, with your questions.

Mr. JENNER. Thank you.

It may well be, Mr. Chairman, that the Exhibits 272 through 275, which although already admitted in evidence, may play some part in these proceedings at some future date. And may I further qualify the exhibits.

Mr. DULLES. Certainly.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. McKenzie, would you be good enough to hand them to the witness?

Would you turn to the second page of Exhibit No. 272, Mr. Oswald? Are you familiar with the signatures on the second page of that exhibit?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, I am.

Mr. JENNER. And would you identify them, please, in the order in which they appear, and state whether or not they are the signatures of the persons who purported to have signed?

Mr. OSWALD. My signature, Robert L. Oswald, I signed it. Witnessed by Henry Baer, Joan Connelly, and Pete White. And they are known to me.

Mr. JENNER. Did they affix those signatures in your presence?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; they did.

Mr. JENNER. And they are persons known to you?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Would you identify them for the record?

Mr. OSWALD. Mr. Henry Baer is a partner in William A. McKenzie's law firm, in Dallas, Tex.

Mr. JENNER. He is Mr. McKenzie's partner?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes.

Miss Joan Connelly is the secretary in that firm.

And Mr. Pete White is an associate partner in the law firm of Mr. McKenzie.

Mr. JENNER. I take it, then, that that document was executed in Mr. McKenzie's office.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. McKENZIE. Now, Mr. Jenner, may I interrupt at this point? I would like to add for the record that I was not present at the time that this letter was executed or witnessed. However, I did dictate it in the presence of Mr. Oswald and, of course, to my secretary, and, of course, to my partner, Henry Baer.

Mr. JENNER. Is Miss Connelly your secretary?

Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Now, would you take the second letter in that group, and give me the exhibit number--turn to the exhibit page and identify the situation similarly, if you are acquainted with them, and state whether it was signed in your presence and where.

Mr. OSWALD. Commission Exhibit No. 273--I was not present when this letter was signed.

Mr. JENNER. Does the letter bear your signature?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it does not.

Mr. JENNER. Are you familiar with the signatures of those who purported to have signed it?

Mr. OSWALD. I am not familiar with the signature--I am familiar with the signature of Mrs. Marina N. Oswald. I am not familiar with the signature of Mr. Declan P. Ford or his wife, Katherine N. Ford.

I am familiar with the signature of Joan Connelly, Mr. McKenzie's secretary.

Mr. JENNER. Would you please identify who Mr. and Mrs. Ford are?

Mr. OSWALD. The best way I could do that, I believe, is that they are friends of Marina N. Oswald. I became acquainted with Mrs. Ford on Wednesday 2 weeks ago, whatever date that is, and Mr. Ford the following day.

Mr. JENNER. What were the circumstances under which you became acquainted with Mrs. Ford?

Mr. OSWALD. Pardon me just a minute.

I would like to correct that.

It was Tuesday rather than Wednesday 2 weeks ago that I first became acquainted with Mrs. Ford.

At that time, Mrs. Ford acted as an interpreter between Mr. Thorne and myself to relate to Mrs. Marina Oswald what we were talking about.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, sir. You mentioned a Mr. Thorne?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. That is Mr. John Thorne who at that time was the attorney for Mrs. Marina Oswald?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And where did this take place?

Mr. OSWALD. At my residence, at 1009 Sierra Drive, Denton, Tex.

Mr. JENNER. Who was present at that time in addition to yourself, Mr. Thorne, and Mrs. Ford?

Mr. OSWALD. My wife, Vada Marie Oswald, was present.

Mr. JENNER. And your acquaintance with Mr. Ford, you say, was the following day?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Where did that take place, and in whose presence?

Mr. OSWALD. At my residence, again, in Denton, Tex., in the presence of my wife, Vada, Mrs. Marina Oswald, and Mrs. Kathy Ford.

Mr. JENNER. As to Mrs. Ford, it is 2 weeks ago last Tuesday, or 2 weeks ago today?

Mr. OSWALD. Pardon me just a minute.

Mr. McKENZIE. Two weeks ago this past Tuesday.

Mr. OSWALD. Pardon me.

Mr. JENNER. I wish you would hesitate and make reasonably certain of this.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I believe I have erred here.

Instead of being 2 weeks ago this past Tuesday, it was a week ago Tuesday that I first met Kathy Ford. And it was the following day, on that Wednesday, that I met Mr. Ford. In other words, I wish to correct it was not 2 weeks ago, but 1 week ago.

Mr. JENNER. Now that you have a calendar before you, would you give us the date so we will have it in the record now?

Mr. OSWALD. On Tuesday, February 11, 1964, was the day I first met Mrs. Kathy Ford in the presence of Mr. John Thorne and my wife, Vada, in my home in Denton, Tex.

On February 12th I met Mr. Ford in the presence of my wife in my residence at Denton, Tex.

Mr. JENNER. Returning to the exhibit to which you have been directing your attention, which is No. 273, you were able to identify Mrs. Marina Oswald's signature, and Miss Connelly's?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. The others you were unable to identify?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Would you turn, then, to the next exhibit, give us the number?

Mr. OSWALD. Commission Exhibit No. 274.

Mr. JENNER. Is it signed on its face?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Well, then, directing your attention to the first page of the exhibit, does it bear a signature?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it does.

Mr. JENNER. Are you familiar with that signature?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I am.

Mr. JENNER. Whose signature is it?

Mr. OSWALD. Mr. William A. McKenzie.

Mr. JENNER. This is the Mr. McKenzie present here representing you?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And does that exhibit consist of more than 1 page?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it does.

Mr. JENNER. Turn to the second page. Does it bear a signature?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it does.

Mr. JENNER. Are you familiar with those signatures?

Mr. OSWALD. The two signatures appear on the second page. One I am familiar with--Mrs. Marina Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, sir. Is that the first of those that are in a series?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And you are familiar with that, and that is her signature?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. The next signature purports to be that of whom?

Mr. OSWALD. Mrs. Katherine Ford.

Mr. JENNER. And your testimony, if I repeated the questions that I did as to the previous exhibit, regarding Mrs. Ford, would be the same? You are not familiar with her signature?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And the next signature, please?

Mr. OSWALD. Sir?

Mr. JENNER. The next signature?

Mr. OSWALD. That is the only two signatures that appear on that second page.

Mr. JENNER. Would you proceed to the next exhibit?

Mr. OSWALD. 275.

Mr. JENNER. That consists of how many pages?

Mr. OSWALD. Two pages.

Mr. JENNER. Does it bear a signature on the first page?

Mr. OSWALD. There is a signature on the first page. The signature is Mr. William A. McKenzie.

Mr. JENNER. You are familiar with that signature, and that is his signature?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. The same gentleman we have identified?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Are there any signatures on the second page of that exhibit?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. There are two signatures on the second page, and in order as they appear----

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Are you familiar with either of them?

Mr. OSWALD. I am familiar with one of them.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Let's take the first one, which is what?

Mr. OSWALD. Mrs. Marina N. Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. You are familiar with her signature?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I am.

Mr. JENNER. Is that her signature?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I would say that was her signature.

Mr. JENNER. And the second name appears to be that of whom?

Mr. OSWALD. Mrs. Katherine Ford.

Mr. JENNER. And your testimony with respect to her, were I to pursue it, would be the same as you testified to a previous exhibit, insofar as your familiarity with her signature is concerned?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Thank you, sir.

Forgive the interruption, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. DULLES. That is all right.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, Mr. McKenzie has produced for us and tendered to us four documents, during the recess, which I would wish to identify. They have a relationship to the exhibits, the signatures of which I have just finished having identified.

Would you mark those, please, Mr. Liebeler?

Mr. DULLES. Do you wish these admitted as exhibits?

Mr. JENNER. If you please, sir. I would like to identify the exhibits and indicate their content first.

I would call on you, Mr. McKenzie, to identify the series of exhibits. They are numbered, Mr. Chairman, Commission Exhibits 276, 277, 278, and 279.

If you will identify them, I may have some questions of the witness.

Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Chairman, Exhibit No. 276 is a contract dated December 6, 1963, addressed to Mr. James H. Martin, Dallas, Tex., and signed by Mrs. Marina N. Oswald, consisting of four pages.

Mr. DULLES. I wish that admitted at this time with that description.

Mr. JENNER. If I may put one question to the witness: Mr. Oswald, would you look at the last page of that exhibit? Does it purport to bear a signature?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Are you familiar with that signature?

Mr. OSWALD. There are three signatures.

Mr. JENNER. Are you familiar with all of them?

Mr. OSWALD. May I ask my attorney something here?

Mr. JENNER. Surely.

Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, if I may interrupt you, and pardon me for doing so--on page 3 there is likewise a signature. And I think perhaps he should start at that page.

Mr. JENNER. That is a fine suggestion.

Will you now refer to page 3. Does it bear a signature?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it does.

Mr. JENNER. Are you familiar with that signature?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I am.

Mr. JENNER. Whose signature is it?

Mr. OSWALD. Mrs. Marina N. Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. Turn to page 4. There are several signatures on that page, is that correct?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. There are three.

Mr. JENNER. Are you familiar with any of them?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I am.

Mr. JENNER. Would you take them in order, taking the uppermost one first. Indicate whether you are familiar with that signature, and whose signature it is.

Mr. OSWALD. It is my own signature, Robert Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. The next under that?

Mr. OSWALD. Mr. James H. Martin.

Mr. JENNER. Are you familiar with that signature?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And it is his signature?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Who is Mr. James H. Martin?

Mr. OSWALD. He was, at that time, when this contract was signed, appointed as Marina's business agent. But employed at the Inn of the Six Flags at Arlington, Tex.

Mr. JENNER. He has been identified in previous sessions before the Commission.

And there is a third signature?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; there is.

Mr. JENNER. And are you familiar with that signature?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I am.

Mr. JENNER. Whose is it, please?

Mr. OSWALD. Mr. John M. Thorne, Attorney.

Mr. JENNER. And he is the Mr. Thorne that we have identified a few moments ago?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. He was at that time the attorney for Mrs. Marina Oswald?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Is there a fourth signature?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; there is not.

Mr. JENNER. Were those signatures affixed in your presence?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; they were.

Mr. DULLES. Mr. Jenner, I believe these are photostatic copies, are they not, that are being identified?

Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir.

Mr. McKenzie, would you please make a statement with respect to that?

Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir. I was going to at this time, Mr. Jenner, state for the record that Exhibit 276 is a photostatic copy. And this photostatic copy was furnished to me by Mrs. Marina N. Oswald.

Mr. DULLES. Where is the original of that?

Mr. McKENZIE. Marina N. Oswald has the original.

Mr. DULLES. Has that been so compared, that we know this is a true copy?

Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Chairman. Pardon me.

I retract that statement.

Marina N. Oswald furnished to me a copy of this exhibit, but it was a signed copy, and it was an original copy.

Mr. JENNER. A duplicate original?

Mr. McKENZIE. Yes. And I presume Mr. James Martin had the original, since it is addressed to him.

Mr. DULLES. And both the original and this duplicate bear these signatures, do they?

Mr. McKENZIE. I have never seen the original, sir, but I presume that they do. And I think Robert Oswald here can clarify that, because he was present at the time that the original was signed, and also the duplicate copies.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. DULLES. And the duplicates were signed by the same parties as the original?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. May I ask--did you get a copy of the original at the time?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. I received a copy in the mail the second day after the signatures were signed. My copies were unsigned.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Oswald, were you present when all of the copies were contemporaneously signed, if they were contemporaneously signed?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I was.

Mr. JENNER. So you know of your own knowledge that what has been termed here the original, which may be in the possession of Mr. Martin, was signed, and was signed in your presence?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And the document which we are now discussing is a photostatic copy of a carbon copy of the original?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Executed contemporaneously with the original?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Would you have any further questions?

Mr. DULLES. No, I have no further questions.

Shall we admit this at this time, or do you want to wait until you have gone through them all, and then admit them all?

Mr. JENNER. It might be more convenient to identify them all, because they are of a series, if I have your permission.

Mr. DULLES. Certainly.

Mr. McKENZIE. The next document is Commission Exhibit 277, and purports to be a photocopy, or is a photocopy of a purported contract between Marina N. Oswald and Robert Oswald, bearing the date of December 9, 1963, and purportedly signed by Marina N. Oswald, Robert L. Oswald, John M. Thorne, attorney, and James H. Martin, approved as to form, and consisting of two pages.

Mr. JENNER. Now, if you would turn to the second page, please, sir--I notice a recital, "Executed by the undersigned parties this Ninth day of December A.D., 1963," and what purports to be your signature.

Was this document, or that of which this is a Xerox copy, executed on that date?

Mr. OSWALD. I do not have a calendar before me. If the ninth day of December was a Monday, it was signed on that date.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Dulles is checking the calendar.

Mr. DULLES. I am afraid I don't have a 1963 calendar here.

Mr. JENNER. I am observing a calendar, and the ninth was a Monday.

Mr. McKenzie, does the previous document also bear a date?

Mr. McKENZIE. It bears the date of December 6, Mr. Jenner.

Mr. JENNER. December 6, then, was a Saturday.

Mr. McKENZIE. If Monday was the ninth, Friday was the sixth.

Mr. JENNER. Was the previous exhibit, which is numbered 276, executed on December 6th?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not.

Mr. JENNER. On what date was it executed?

Mr. OSWALD. It was executed on Monday, December 9th.

Mr. JENNER. Despite its bearing a date of December 6th, it was actually executed on the ninth, when Commission Exhibit 277 was executed?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Now, directing your attention to the second page of Exhibit No. 277, that likewise bears a series of signatures. I ask you first whether those signatures were affixed in your presence?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; they were.

Mr. JENNER. Now, was the document now identified as 277, which is a Xerox copy--was the original of Exhibit 277 executed at the same time as the copy which you have produced for us executed?

Mr. OSWALD. May I have that again, please, sir?

Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. That is, there were a series of papers, original and carbon copies, signed, at one and the same time?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And all of them were signed in your presence?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Now, there are four signatures on that page. Would you proceed to state your familiarity with those signatures and identify them?

Mr. OSWALD. All right.

Left to right, as the signatures appear--my signature, Robert L. Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. And to the right of that?

Mr. OSWALD. And to the right of that, the signature of Mrs. Marina N. Oswald, which I am familiar with.

The next signature is Mr. John M. Thorne, attorney, and I am familiar with his signature.

And the last signature that appears on this second page, Mr. James H. Martin. I am also familiar with his signature.

Mr. JENNER. And these persons are the same persons you have heretofore identified?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And is the document of which this 277 is a Xerox copy in the same condition now as it was the time those signatures were affixed to it?

Mr. OSWALD. May I have a moment, sir?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Is that likewise true of Exhibit No. 276?

Would you take a look at it, please?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. And if I may say this about this--on page 3 of Exhibit 276, you will note that towards the upper right-hand part of this page there was--on this copy, there is a dark mark, following the word "royalties."

Representative FORD. What page is that?

Mr. OSWALD. Page 3, the sixth line, the word that was crossed off or out of the contract was the word "gifts."

Mr. JENNER. And was that done in the course of the discussion and preceding the execution of the document?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. So the document is in the same condition it was when executed?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Would you identify the next exhibit, Mr. McKenzie?

Mr. McKENZIE. The next exhibit is a photocopy of an investment agency agreement. It is Commission Exhibit No. 278. This exhibit bears the date of December 30, 1963, and is an agreement by and between John M. Thorne and James H. Martin, co-trustees, of Dallas County, Tex., referred to in the exhibit as principal, and the First National Bank of Fort Worth, Tex., referred to in the exhibit as agent.

The exhibit consists of 3 pages, together with a schedule A and a letter addressed to the Trust Department of the First National Bank of Fort Worth, Tex.

This exhibit is a photocopy of a photocopy of a duplicate original.

I have seen the duplicate original upon which it had the names, handwritten names of John M. Thorne, co-trustee, and James H. Martin, co-trustee, as principal, on page 3, and Preston A. Utterbach, Vice President and Trust Officer of the First National Bank of Fort Worth, Tex.

However, these Xerox copies of a copy, being a photocopy, do not have the signatures on, because the second photocopy did not reproduce the signatures.

I have seen those.

Mr. JENNER. The Xerox machine was unable to pick up the signatures?

Mr. McKENZIE. No. The prior photocopy was unable to pick up the signatures.

Mr. DULLES. Because they had not been put on, or because they didn't pick them up?

Mr. McKENZIE. It would not pick them up, Mr. Dulles. The signatures were on the instrument itself, but the photo machine would not reproduce the signatures.

Mr. JENNER. You actually saw the signatures?

Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Where did you see that document, Mr. McKenzie?

Mr. McKENZIE. Marina N. Oswald gave it to me in my office.

Mr. JENNER. Would you state the thrust or substance of those agreements?

Mr. McKENZIE. The substance of it is that Mr. Thorne and Mr. Martin, as principals, constituted the First National Bank of Fort Worth as the agent to hold certain trust funds, consisting, as shown by the exhibit, attached to this exhibit, of $25,000.

Mr. JENNER. It was deposited with the First National Bank of Fort Worth under this trust and deposit agreement, agency agreement?

Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.

I presume that to be true. I know Preston Utterbach. And if his signature was on it, I know that the funds were deposited there at the bank, or else he would not have executed it.

Mr. DULLES. Could I ask the source of these funds, if you know?

Mr. McKENZIE. I do not know them, sir. But Marina Oswald has told me that she felt that the funds came from contributions made to herself and her children, from various sources, of which I know nothing.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, Mr. McKenzie.

Did you use the word "felt." She told you she felt?

Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, I did.

Mr. JENNER. That is the extent of your personal knowledge?

Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Oswald, do you have any personal knowledge, apart from or in addition to that of Mr. McKenzie, with respect to the source of the funds?

Mr. OSWALD. I would say this was monies received through the mails, and delivered in person to Mr. Thorne or perhaps Mr. Martin by various people who wanted to contribute to Marina's welfare and her children's welfare.

Mr. JENNER. Upon what is your statement based? Conversations?

Mr. OSWALD. Conversations, and also being----

Mr. JENNER. With whom, sir?

Mr. OSWALD. Marina N. Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. She related this to you?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Anybody else? What about Mr. Thorne and Mr. Martin? Had you had conversations with them as to the source of these funds?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I would say that would be correct, too.

Mr. JENNER. Did these conversations take place in the presence of Mrs. Marina Oswald? Your conversations with Mr. Thorne and Mr. Martin?

Mr. OSWALD. Not that I recall, sir. I am thinking perhaps, when I was aware at first that the $25,000 was to be placed in the trust fund at the First National Bank of Fort Worth, I learned this through a conversation on the telephone.

Mr. JENNER. With whom?

Mr. OSWALD. With Mr. Jim Martin.

Mr. JENNER. Are you familiar with Mr. Martin's voice?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you call him or did he call you?

Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall, sir.

Mr. JENNER. When did this take place?

Mr. OSWALD. Approximately a week prior to the actual deposit and setting up of the trust fund at the First National Bank in Fort Worth.

Representative FORD. Mr. Jenner, I suggest we get a copy of the deposit slip or some other validation of the actual amount.

Mr. JENNER. Thank you, sir. We will undertake to do that. These documents, as I have indicated, were produced for us during the recess. We don't have the full information.

Perhaps, Mr. McKenzie--you have been quite helpful. You might be further helpful to us--you might have the deposit--evidence of the deposit.

Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, I wish I did have it. However, I know that the First National Bank of Fort Worth would gladly duplicate that for you. And I contemplate that I will be in the process of obtaining a copy from either Mr. Thorne or Mr. Martin in the very near future, because I have asked both of those gentlemen, on behalf of Marina Oswald and her children, for a full and complete accounting as of February 18, 1964, and I will likewise say that she has informed me up until February 18, 1964, she has had no accounting from either of those gentlemen.

Mr. JENNER. Is there another exhibit?

Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.

The next exhibit, Mr. Jenner, is Commission Exhibit No. 279, which is a Xerox copy of a power of attorney granted to the firm of Thorne and Leach, attorneys and counselors at law, bearing the date of December 5, 1963, in which it has three--I presume these are omissions from the exhibit--commencing on line 4, following the words "trust funds", there is an omission, and then the word "bequests", and then there is another omission, and on line 5, at the beginning of that line, there is an omission.

Mr. DULLES. What is the nature of the omissions?

Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Dulles, I have been told that the word "gifts" was omitted. The word "gift" was originally in it. But I have been told the word "gift" was omitted, or struck out.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Dulles, I had intended to question the witness about that.

Mr. McKENZIE. This contract provides that Marina N. Oswald, "bargain, transfer, sell and assign an undivided 10 percent of all such sums when collected or paid to my account," referring to the fund in the preceding paragraph. The agreement is signed by Marina N. Oswald, witnessed by James H. Martin, and accepted by John M. Thorne.

I am familiar with Marina N. Oswald's signature, and this is a copy of her signature, or is her signature. I am not familiar with Mr. Martin's signature or Mr. Thorne's signature.

Mr. JENNER. Directing your attention to that document, Mr. Oswald, are you familiar with any of the signatures it bears?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I am.

Mr. JENNER. Would you identify each signature and indicate those with which you are familiar?

Mr. OSWALD. As they appear in order, the first signature is Mrs. Marina N. Oswald. I am familiar with this signature.

The second signature is Mr. James H. Martin. I am familiar with his signature.

Mr. JENNER. It is his signature?

Mr. OSWALD. I would say yes, it is.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. DULLES. Is that under "Accepted"--is that first word there "John"?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. And the last signature as appears on this Exhibit 279 is the signature of John M. Thorne.

Mr. JENNER. Do you know the day upon which that document was executed? It bears a date of December 5, which is a Thursday.

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.

Pardon me--the 5th day of December is the date purported--that this document was executed at. I am not familiar that it was executed on that date.

Mr. JENNER. Are you familiar with the date when it was in fact executed?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I am not. I might further state I was not present when this document was signed, and I was not aware of this document until Thursday, February 13th.

Mr. JENNER. 19----

Mr. OSWALD. 1964.

Mr. JENNER. May I inquire of you, Mr. McKenzie, whether you have seen the original of the document of which this purports to be a Xerox copy?

Mr. McKENZIE. I have not, sir. But I have seen a duplicate copy, an original copy.

Mr. JENNER. A duplicate executed copy?

Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. That was furnished to you by whom?

Mr. McKENZIE. By Marina N. Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. And this is a photostatic copy of what, with respect to an original, carbon copy or otherwise?

Mr. McKENZIE. It is a photocopy of a carbon copy.

Mr. JENNER. And have you personally seen the carbon copy of which this is a photo?

Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir; I have.

Mr. JENNER. And is the document now identified as Commission Exhibit No. 279 in the same condition now as it was when you first saw it?

Mr. McKENZIE. Exactly.

Mr. JENNER. And to the best of your recollection, is it a duplicate of the original?

Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.

The next exhibit is Commission Exhibit No. 280 entitled "The Oswald Trust," and bearing a heading, "The State of Texas, County of Dallas, Know all men by these presents," and it is a trust agreement dated December 30, 1963, by and between Marina Nikolaevna Oswald "a widow, hereinafter called grantor, and John M. Thorne and James H. Martin of Dallas County, Texas, co-trustees, hereinafter called the trustee" in which it describes certain funds described on Schedule A attached to this exhibit, which consists of some six pages, plus the Schedule A, Schedule A describing the trust funds as cash, $25,000. And I might add, in my opinion, Mr. Jenner, for whatever it may be worth, that this trust grants to John Thorne and James Martin purportedly grants unto those two men as co-trustees absolute discretion as to the distribution of the trust funds.

In fact, on page 2 it says, "as the trustee shall in either case in its uncontrolled discretion deem advisable."

Mr. DULLES. Who is the beneficiary of this trust?

Mr. McKENZIE. Marina Oswald and her children, in the discretion of John Thorne and James Martin.

Representative FORD. Is that $25,000 the same $25,000 referred to in a previous exhibit?

Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Ford, I presume so. But that is only a presumption on my part. I do not know.

I might further add, for the benefit of counsel and the Commission, that Marina Oswald has informed me, and I think Robert Oswald can testify as to this, which I leave to your discretion, that at no time have these, up until February 14--have these----

Mr. JENNER. 1964?

Mr. McKENZIE. 1964--have these exhibits, numbered consecutively from 276 through 280, been read to her in Russian. And at the time of execution, they were not interpreted, nor did they show of the contents--what the contents were, except as explained to her in English.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. McKenzie, the document is identified as Commission Exhibit No. 280, directing your attention to page 5, has blanks for signatures, and names of grantor and co-trustees under those lines.

Could I ask you whether you have seen the original of this document?

Mr. McKENZIE. I have not, sir. I have seen a copy.

Mr. JENNER. An executed copy?

Mr. McKENZIE. To the best of my recollection, it was an executed copy, yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And from what source did you obtain or was the document exhibited to you?

Mr. McKENZIE. The document was given to me by Marina Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. And you observed that it was executed?

Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. By the persons whose names appear on page 5 of the Exhibit 280?

Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.

I have made these exhibits available to the Commission for whatever purpose they may serve the Commission, and for no other purpose.

Mr. DULLES. Yes. I think we might want to reserve on that until the whole Commission can get together. We want to examine everything within the mandate we have been given by the President. We don't want to go afield, quite naturally. And we cannot tell at this stage what bearing these particular papers might have. So I think I would like to reserve judgment on these.

Mr. McKENZIE. Well, Mr. Dulles, I made that statement in view of that fact. I felt that that would be true.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. McKenzie, for the purpose of our record, would you be offended if we had you sworn, so you could then state that the statements you have made to the Commission are true and correct?

Mr. McKENZIE. I would not be offended in any way.

Mr. DULLES. Do you, Mr. McKenzie, swear that what you have stated, is the full truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. McKENZIE. I do, Mr. Dulles.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibits 276 through 280, inclusive, the documents that have been so identified.

Mr. DULLES. They may be accepted.

(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 276 through 280, inclusive, for identification, and received in evidence.)

Mr. DULLES. I wish to state, in accepting these documents, the Commission does not want to pass on or assume any responsibility with respect to the financial or other arrangements described in these documents.

Mr. JENNER. I sought to identify them, Mr. Chairman, and gentlemen, and to tender them in evidence because of events of the past few days, and to confirm Mr. McKenzie's authority to speak on behalf of Mr. Oswald.

Mr. DULLES. Very well.

Mr. JENNER. At the recess, Mr. Oswald, we were dealing with--excuse me.

We were dealing with the period of time that you and your mother and your two brothers lived in Benbrook, Tex. This brought us through the summer of 1948, I believe.

Am I correct?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Liebeler has determined that the divorce of Mr. Ekdahl and your mother took place in 1948. We cannot give you the month and the day in 1948, but it was during the year 1948.

We had reached the point in which you related to us that, I believe, following the divorce of Mr. Ekdahl and your mother, she purchased a small home.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And refresh my recollection, please--was that in Benbrook, Tex.?

Mr. OSWALD. That was in Benbrook, Tex.

Mr. JENNER. Have we reached a point now at which your brother, Lee, had entered elementary school?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; we have.

Mr. JENNER. And you boys have now terminated your attendance at the military academy?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And would you please relate what elementary school you and your brother, John, attended, and Lee, if he attended the same school?

Mr. OSWALD. Prior to the school year of 1948-49, we moved to Ewing Street, 7408 Ewing Street, within the limits of the city of Fort Worth.

Mr. JENNER. Was the home that had been purchased in Benbrook, Tex., sold?

Mr. OSWALD. I would say yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Well, you state that you would say. Is that your best information?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

I am not aware of any transactions in regards to the selling of that home or anything. Since we did move, and she did purchase this home on 7408 Ewing Street, in Fort Worth, I would assume that she did sell the house at Benbrook, because she didn't rent it, and we no longer went out there. I feel sure she did sell it.

Mr. JENNER. Did I understand you to say that your mother purchased a home at 7408 Ewing?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Would you, in very short compass, tell us the physical characteristics of that home?

Mr. OSWALD. It was a two bedroom, asbestos siding, with an attached garage, red roof, small porch on the front, and an average sized lot.

Mr. JENNER. These homes you have been describing all have, as I recall it--have either attached garage or separate garages.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir--with the exception of the home there in Benbrook that my mother purchased after the divorce from Mr. Ekdahl--it did not have a garage, and I did not recall a garage at the native stone house in Benbrook.

Mr. JENNER. The purpose of my inquiry was, did the family have an automobile?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Was that true when you lived in Louisiana?

Mr. OSWALD. To my best recollection on that--my father did have, at the time of his death, either a 1937 or 1938 Chevrolet. I believe my mother sold it after his death. I believe she did not own an automobile in New Orleans, when we were at the Bethlehem Orphan Home.

Mr. JENNER. Were you boys interested in automobiles, as most young teenagers are?

Mr. OSWALD. I think so, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Tinker around with them, drive them?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Both you and your brother John?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Later on, in later years, did your brother Lee--was he likewise interested in automobiles, did he tinker with them?

Mr. OSWALD. Not to my knowledge, sir, did he tinker with them. Even though I can recall a couple of occasions with automobiles that I owned that he would assist me in any repairs I might be making on the automobile at that time.

Mr. JENNER. Well, I have in mind his interest now. Was he a good driver?

Mr. OSWALD. To my knowledge, he did not drive.

Mr. JENNER. He did not drive at all?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see him drive an automobile?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. On two or three occasions in later years, I offered to teach him to drive.

Mr. JENNER. You recall this specifically now, do you? Would you relate to the Commission this course of events in his life--a young man who never did learn, at least to your knowledge, to drive an automobile?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

The first occasion that I recall that I offered to Lee to teach him how to drive--at that time, I owned a '56 Chevrolet. I had married, and I was residing at 7313 Davenport, Fort Worth, Tex., a home which I had purchased. And Lee was home on leave.

Mr. JENNER. Give us the time, please, as closely as you can.

Mr. OSWALD. This would be some time in 1958.

Mr. JENNER. He was then in the Marine Corps?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And he was home on leave?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. State the circumstances, will you please?

Mr. OSWALD. With relation to my offer to teach him how to drive?

Mr. JENNER. Yes. How did that come about?

Mr. OSWALD. Well, he was spending a day, or part of a day over at our house. We were going to the grocery store or something--Lee and I. As I backed out of the driveway, I recall saying something to him, or he brought it up, or something--about wanting to learn how to drive.

And I said, "Well, we can start right now."

It was an automatic transmission.

"It is the easiest thing in the world to do. There is nothing to worry about. And I would be right here with you."

Well, he didn't think that was the time to try to start. He did want to learn how to drive, though. And he did not take the wheel.

Mr. JENNER. He did not?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

At no time was I present when he took the wheel of a car and drove it.

Mr. JENNER. And on any occasion in your lifetime, did you ever see him, whether you were in the vehicle--whether or not you were in the vehicle--behind the wheel and actually operating in motion an automobile?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have never known him to operate an automobile, to drive it.

Mr. JENNER. What about Mrs. Marina Oswald in that respect?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; to my knowledge she does not drive and she does not know how to drive, and I have never seen her operate an automobile.

Mr. JENNER. I notice when you are smoking that you hold the cigarette in your left hand. Are you left handed?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I am left handed when I write and eat.

Mr. JENNER. And you are right handed otherwise?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Throwing a baseball?

Mr. OSWALD. Throwing a baseball.

At one time I could handle it with both hands--especially a football better than a baseball. But I have returned to my right hand on that. I was more accurate with my right hand than with my left hand, in throwing things. I kick footballs right footed and so forth.

Mr. JENNER. What about your father? Was he right handed or left handed?

Mr. OSWALD. This I do not know, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Your mother?

Mr. OSWALD. My mother is left handed.

Mr. JENNER. And your brother Lee?

Mr. OSWALD. He was right handed.

Representative FORD. Was there ever a time that he appeared to be left handed, as far as you recollect?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. I have never known him to handle anything--throw a baseball, football, et cetera, fire a rifle, or do anything, left handed.

Mr. JENNER. In order to be certain of the details in this respect, when he wrote, did be write with his right or his left hand?

Mr. OSWALD. Right handed.

Mr. JENNER. Right handed?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And you in fact have seen him write with his right hand?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I have.

Mr. JENNER. During your youth?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever--was there ever an occasion when you saw him write or attempt to write with his left hand?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I have never seen him at any time, on any occasion, ever attempt to write or do anything left handed.

Mr. JENNER. You really covered my next question, but I would like to ask it anyhow.

There are men in athletics who are either right handed or left handed, but who throw or bat or do something from the other side.

Did he ever throw left handed or in any athletic endeavor employ his left hand predominantly as against his right hand?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not to my knowledge, he never did.

Mr. JENNER. From your many years of experience with him, being associated with him, as his brother, was he a predominantly right-handed person?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he most certainly was.

Representative FORD. And you personally saw him throw, kick, or do anything athletic over the years, and saw him use his right hand exclusively?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I would say without qualification--I might be repeating myself here--at no time did I ever know him to do anything left handed, to the extent that it would be predominant. Of course his hands worked together, and so forth. But I have never known him to do anything left handed.

Mr. JENNER. From your long acquaintance with him, and your intimate knowledge of his physical characteristics in that respect, do you have an opinion as to whether he was instinctively right-handed or instinctively a left-handed person?

Mr. OSWALD. I would say he was instinctively a right-handed person.

Mr. JENNER. In all the years you were with him, you had opportunity to see him react instantaneously without having time to think about using his right hand or left hand?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you observe him on many occasions?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes. I have never known him to use his left hand in any manner when an occasion would require that he use either hand--instinctively went to his right hand.

Mr. JENNER. Was he a coordinated person in the use of his right hand? Some are not coordinated athletically.

Mr. OSWALD. My opinion of this, sir, would be that he was coordinated to the extent that looking at myself and many, I would compare us as two peas in a pod. Quite fast, well coordinated.

Mr. JENNER. He was dextrous?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And well coordinated?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And you had an opportunity over the years to see him engage in athletics, did you?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. During your youth, as a young man, in any event, did you and your brother John and Lee have an interest in guns, rifles, pistols, cap guns, firearms generally?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; we certainly did. I would say this.

Mr. JENNER. Now, this includes all three of you?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I understand that.

Of course John and I, when we attended military school, we had more of an opportunity to become acquainted with firearms. We certainly played with cap pistols, rubber guns, et cetera, when we were young. Lee did the same thing.

However, I would say this. Mother did not like firearms.

Mr. DULLES. We will recess now until 2 o'clock this afternoon.

(Whereupon, at 12:30 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)

Afternoon Session

TESTIMONY OF ROBERT EDWARD LEE OSWALD RESUMED

The President's Commission reconvened at 2 p.m.

Mr. DULLES. The Commission will come to order.

Mr. DULLES. Mr. Jenner, will you please continue?

Mr. JENNER. Thank you, sir.

Mr. Reporter, would you read the last question and answer we have so we can orient ourselves.

To refresh your recollection, Mr. Oswald, I had commenced to examine you with respect to the interests of yourself, your brother John, and your brother Lee in firearms, even at the children's stage. And you had indicated developments in that area as you became older.

I think you reached the point where, as an example, you said of course your brother John and yourself had attended military school.

Mr. OSWALD. And, also, I believe, sir, the question referred to all three of us.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. OSWALD. To what extent we were familiar with firearms.

To elaborate, at military school John was by far the better shot of the two of us. He was on the school rifle team. And, at this time, I was 10 years old--when I first attended there. My hunting instinct came alive.

Mr. JENNER. Hunting?

Mr. OSWALD. Hunting instinct came alive, and at the first opportunity I started hunting squirrels and so forth there in Mississippi. I did this on practically every occasion I had. John was on the rifle team. And up to that time, a number of years after that, we never had a firearm in the house. My mother didn't like them. She was scared of them. And after we moved to 7408 Ewing Street, none of us owned a rifle, even a .22, or a shotgun, or any type of firearm. And when I wanted to go hunting from there, I had various friends that had rifles that I would borrow, and I would go to the west side of Fort Worth, and Benbrook, and do my squirrel hunting.

I don't recall at anytime during that period that Lee went with me. I don't know that John did--because approximately this time he had reached the age of 17, at which time he joined the U.S. Coast Guard.

Mr. JENNER. This is when you moved over to Ewing Street in Fort Worth?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Up to that time, had you and Lee at any time gone hunting?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not recall any time that we went hunting at that time.

Mr. JENNER. This was 1948-49. So he was 9 to 10 years old?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Had, to your knowledge, Lee gone hunting or used firearms or played or been interested in firearms with you or with your brother?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. To my knowledge I don't remember any time he went hunting with myself or my older brother John. As I stated, there was no firearms in the house.

He liked cap pistols, like any other kid. And to the extent that we didn't even own a BB gun.

Mr. JENNER. Had you ever had BB guns around your home?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Had you boys ever owned one?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. By this time, I assume you had shot one.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Owned by one of your pals or somebody around the neighborhood?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And Lee had what you would describe as a normal interest in firearms?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. That every boy has?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. But not beyond that?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Were there any pistol or rifle ranges around that you boys attended?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; there was not.

Mr. JENNER. Now, your brother John at this point entered the Coast Guard?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. You were attending--you were then 15. You were now attending high school, I assume.

Mr. OSWALD. Junior high school.

Mr. JENNER. In Fort Worth?

Mr. OSWALD. Fort Worth, W. C. Stripling Junior High School.

Mr. DULLES. What was the name of that?

Mr. OSWALD. W. C. Stripling Junior High School.

Mr. JENNER. Did your brother John attend high school?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. What high school did he attend?

Mr. OSWALD. We went for awhile--to get this thing in sequence, before he went into the Coast Guard he attended Arlington Heights High School in Fort Worth, I believe, for one-half year, and then he transferred to Paschal High School in Fort Worth.

Mr. JENNER. Had you attended either of those high schools?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; Arlington Heights High School.

Mr. JENNER. I think I might go back a little bit. I will return to the firearms.

But to maintain the sequence, when you and your brother John came to Benbrook, Tex., after you completed your schooling at the military school, I assume you attended school in Benbrook, Tex.

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; we did not, because we were just there during the summer months. And we moved prior to the school year of 19----

Mr. JENNER. '48?

Mr. OSWALD. '48--we moved to the address on Ewing Street.

Mr. JENNER. All right. And each of you then enrolled in Arlington?

Mr. OSWALD. I was in the ninth grade, which was junior high school in Texas. I enrolled in W. C. Stripling.

Mr. JENNER. First?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. And John Edward enrolled in Arlington Heights High School.

Mr. JENNER. W. C. Stripling High School was a junior high school?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And Arlington Heights High School was senior high school?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; the last 3 years.

Mr. JENNER. And, at this time, your brother Lee was enrolled in----

Mr. OSWALD. West Ridglea Elementary School.

Mr. JENNER. So at this point each of you was attending a different school?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And Lee was 9 years old.

You continued at Arlington Heights Junior High School for how long?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir--W. C. Stripling Junior High School. For 1 year, the ninth grade.

If I may, sir, perhaps correct something--I don't know for sure which way it was. When I said Lee attended West Ridglea Elementary School, I think perhaps the first year he attended Arlington Heights Elementary School, because I don't believe the West Ridglea Elementary School was completed at that time.

Mr. JENNER. We might take you in sequence so that at least I don't get confused.

You spent a year at W.C. Stripling High School?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. So we now have--we are now into '49-'50, is that correct?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And after a year at W.C. Stripling High School, you enrolled where?

Mr. OSWALD. At Arlington Heights High School.

Mr. JENNER. And that would be in the fall of 1949?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And you attended Arlington Heights High School how long?

Mr. OSWALD. I attended my sophomore year. In my sophomore year I started----

Mr. JENNER. Would that be 1951, the end of your sophomore year?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; 1950 would be the end of the school year. That summer there I started a job with an A&P Supermarket there in Fort Worth.

I might say along this period mother seemed to be having difficulty keeping a job or making enough money and so forth to raise us. I stayed out of school that next year and worked for A&P.

Mr. JENNER. Out of school 1950-51?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did your brother remain in school--John?

Mr. OSWALD. John at this time was in the Coast Guard.

Mr. JENNER. Already in the Coast Guard?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right. And you worked at the A&P during this period?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you contribute your earnings to your mother?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. They were probably not a great amount at this age. Do you recall what they were, per week?

Mr. OSWALD. Perhaps my starting salary was somewhere around $48 a week, or something like that. I believe by the end of the year I had become a checker, and perhaps it was $65 or $70 a week.

Mr. JENNER. What proportion of that did you contribute to the sustaining of the family?

Mr. OSWALD. I would say practically all of it, but what I needed for expenses, a little spending money.

Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether your brother John made an allotment of any kind to your mother or sent her any money?

Mr. OSWALD. To my knowledge, he did not.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any illness or disability of any kind that contributed to your mother's difficulty in obtaining positions during this period?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she was not disabled. I don't recall any particular length of illness that she had at this time that would not allow her to work.

Mr. JENNER. What was the reason, if you recall, she was having difficulty in obtaining work, or was there any particular reason?

Mr. OSWALD. None that I recall, sir. No particular reason I can recall.

Mr. JENNER. Your brother Lee was living at home during this time?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Was he working after school, or making any effort to earn some money?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he was not. He might have on occasion mowed somebody's lawn or something like that, where he would have a little spending money, or something. But nothing frequently, consistently.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

Proceeding with you, at the end of the school year '50-'51--I assume you continued working there the summer of '51?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And did you reenter school that fall?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. JENNER. Where?

Mr. OSWALD. Arlington Heights High School.

Representative FORD. May I ask a question?

During this 1-year period that you worked for the A&P, Mr. Oswald, were you the principal source of income for your mother, Lee, and yourself?

Mr. OSWALD. Mother was working. Whether or not I was making more than she was at that time, I do not know.

Representative FORD. She was working spasmodically or regularly during this period?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe almost regularly, very little off. I cannot recall right now what she was doing. I think perhaps during this period she was selling insurance.

Representative FORD. While she was in this occupation, who took care of Lee?

Mr. OSWALD. Well, no one did. Lee was, of course, at school. When he returned home from school in the afternoon, he managed for himself, until I or my mother returned home from work.

Representative FORD. He was 9 or 10?

Mr. McKENZIE. Eleven years old.

Representative FORD. Thank you.

Mr. JENNER. I think Representative Ford's question may have been induced by the fact you said that at about this time of which we are speaking your mother was having trouble retaining her position or obtaining positions. I assumed from that, perhaps incorrectly, that there were gaps, there were times when she was not employed, and, therefore, did need you to remain out of school to help. Is that a fair statement?

Mr. OSWALD. I would say that is a fair statement and generally so. A little more comes to mind there.

I believe, perhaps, that she might have been selling insurance. I think she was acting at that time as what you would call a hostess or a welcoming party for the city of Fort Worth. In other words, she went out and met new people coming into Fort Worth--something along that line. And apparently it wasn't very much money, very little. And I think during this period also she was trying to locate other types of work that would perhaps earn her more. I believe that would be more accurate to what I really had in mind, there.

Mr. JENNER. But during all of the period, from the divorce of your mother and Mr. Ekdahl, proceeding from that time forward, she again returned to what she had been doing prior to the marriage--that is, working to sustain the family?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And if I may use the expression you did, Lee was left to shift for himself during the daytime, get to school, get back to school, and be around until either you boys returned to the home or your mother returned to the home?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Because he didn't have anybody particularly assigned or who undertook to care for him?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

I might say you mentioned "you boys." Of course at this time John was in the Coast Guard, so it was either myself or my mother.

Mr. JENNER. And particularly during the year you were employed at the A&P, and your mother was also employed, then certainly during that period there was no one even available to take care of him, is that correct?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. What were your hours?

Mr. OSWALD. My hours varied somewhat. We had different types of shifts for different days. Normally perhaps from 7 to 4 or 5 o'clock, and on the weekends--stock day was Wednesday, when all shipments came in, to restock the store. That was Wednesday and Saturday. Usually they were long days. I worked from 7 o'clock to 8 o'clock or 9 o'clock at night. And on Saturdays practically always after the store was closed, we did the cleanup, and rewaxing the floors and sometimes it was anywhere from 10 to 10:30 at night, and perhaps even 11 o'clock before I was home.

Mr. DULLES. Did Lee's school at that time keep him until about 4 o'clock, do you know?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, that would be--he was, of course, at that time, attending West Ridglea Elementary School. I believe it would be about 3 o'clock, because I believe high school at that time--we were getting out at 3:40. And I believe the elementary school was either 40 minutes or an hour earlier.

Mr. JENNER. You attended Arlington Heights High School for the school year '51-'52?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And what about the year '52-'53?

Mr. OSWALD. July 1952 I joined the Marine Corps.

Mr. JENNER. And in July 1952, when you joined the Marine Corps, what do you recall was your status as far as your schooling was concerned?

Mr. OSWALD. I completed my junior year in high school.

Mr. DULLES. Did you enlist for 3 years?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And your brother was still in the Coast Guard?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he was still in the Coast Guard at that time.

Mr. JENNER. And, at that time, I take it your brother Lee was attending Arlington Heights High School? That would be 1952?

Mr. OSWALD. Just a minute, please.

In 1952 Lee was 13 years old. He would be attending W. C. Stripling Junior High School then.

Mr. JENNER. I see. For the school year 1951-52?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. Junior high school there was from the seventh to the ninth grades. And as soon as he was through with his sixth year, he started attending W. C. Stripling Junior High School.

Mr. JENNER. As soon as he finished the sixth year at Ridglea Elementary School, he entered W. C. Stripling High School, as a seventh grader?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir--junior high school.

Mr. JENNER. Now, the condition that you described as to Lee shifting for himself during the daytime, when your mother was away working and you were away working, and your brother John was in the Coast Guard, continued, I take it, when he began attendance and while he was attending W. C. Stripling Junior High School?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Was there a discussion, a family discussion when you enlisted in the Marines, or prior to your enlisting in the Marines, as to your doing so, and quitting high school?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; there was not.

Mr. JENNER. That was of your own volition?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you talk to your mother in advance about it?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Not at all?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Had anything preceded in the way of family discussion of your brother John's entry into the Coast Guard?

Mr. OSWALD. I feel like it was, sir. He had previously----

Mr. JENNER. This is your best recollection?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

He had previously, before going into the Coast Guard, joined the Marine Corps Reserve, the base of which was, at that time, at Grand Prairie, Tex. I believe it was 105 Howitzer, something like that. And he was perhaps in that 4 or 5 months before he joined the Coast Guard. When it came up about the Coast Guard, I believe we all talked about it, or at least he talked to Lee about it in front of me.

Mr. JENNER. You used an expression, "I believe we talked about it." Is it your recollection that you did?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. Nothing that I remember particular about that.

Mr. JENNER. What was the character of the discussion, Mr. Oswald? You had a family in which your mother was having some difficulty supporting you boys? You had a brother who needed to be supported. Was there any discussion--or was there a discussion of what would happen in the event that first John and then you joined the service?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe reflecting on what mother said to me when I made my decision to join the Marine Corps was that perhaps it was the best thing, where I would not be a burden to her to that extent, and also perhaps be able to help her when she needed help. And I think this would be in line with what was said when John left for the Coast Guard, that this would be, of course, one less for her to take care of at the house, to feed and to clothe, and so forth. And it would relieve her of her responsibility along that line--it would help her, because of the limited amount of funds that she had coming in.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever make an allotment of any portion of your service pay to your mother?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. To your knowledge, did John?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not.

Mr. JENNER. You were single at this time?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Your brother John was?

Mr. OSWALD. 1952?

Mr. JENNER. When he entered the Coast Guard.

Mr. OSWALD. When he entered the Coast Guard he was single.

Mr. JENNER. Did he marry while he was in the service?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he did.

Mr. JENNER. Now, was he in the Coast Guard when he married?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he was.

Mr. JENNER. I take it he did leave the Coast Guard.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he has.

Mr. JENNER. And did he enter into military service when he left the Coast Guard?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he did. He transferred from the Coast Guard into the U.S. Air Force.

Mr. JENNER. And when was that?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe this to be around 1955. I believe it would be accurate to say in 1954. I do recall a letter from John to the extent that he lost a stripe when he transferred from one service to the other, and I believe this letter came to me when I was in Korea, which was 1954 and early '55. I believe it was 1954.

Mr. JENNER. When you were in Korea, did you say?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. When did you say, if you did, that your brother John married? Do you recall the year?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe this would be late 1950 or '51.

Mr. JENNER. That was during the period you were working at the A&P?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And where was he stationed at that time?

Mr. OSWALD. New York City.

Mr. JENNER. Staten Island, I guess.

I would like to ask some questions about that later on, but I prefer now to return to this.

You enlisted in the Marines, then, in the summer of 1952.

Mr. OSWALD. July 11, 1952.

Mr. JENNER. Would you give us in very short compass your military career?

Mr. OSWALD. I went to boot camp at San Diego, Calif., and from San Diego I went to combat training at Camp Pendleton, Calif. When I left Camp Pendleton, I was transferred from the infantry into the Marine Air Wing.

I went to Jacksonville, Fla. to a preparatory school down there in Marine aviation--more or less to determine your ability and what your strong points were, and what field you would be best qualified in the aviation division.

From Jacksonville, Fla., I went into Millington, Tenn., right outside of Memphis, Tenn., a Navy school, where for approximately 6 months I attended metalsmith school.

From Memphis, Tenn., or Millington, Tenn., I went to Miami, Fla. for approximately 9 months. I was not in school any longer. I was on the job. And from Miami, I was sent overseas to Korea.

Mr. JENNER. And how long were you overseas?

Mr. OSWALD. Approximately 18 months, sir.

Mr. JENNER. From when to when?

Mr. OSWALD. I reported to Santa Ana, Calif. in January or February of 1954.

Mr. JENNER. And you were discharged from the Marines----

Mr. OSWALD. July of 1955.

Mr. JENNER. So you had a full 3 years in the Marines.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. During that 3-year period, what contact did you have with the members of your family, and with particular reference, if you can give that first, with your brother Lee--his writing you, you writing him?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; we were corresponding infrequently, I would say--not very many letters between I and Lee direct when I was in the service, especially the first part of my tour in the service.

In 1952, after traveling from Camp Pendleton, Calif., to Jacksonville, Fla., I did have a 10-day leave. They were in New York City at that time.

Mr. JENNER. This was then some time in 1953, I take it?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir--1952.

Mr. JENNER. 1952?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. This was----

Mr. JENNER. You mean your mother and Lee--that is the period of time they were in New York City?

Mr. OSWALD. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. Living there.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you see them?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not at that time. I spent my leave in Fort Worth, because I did not feel I had enough time to travel to New York and down to Jacksonville, Fla. After completing metalsmith school at Millington, Tenn., I took a 10-day leave.

Mr. JENNER. Fix the time.

Mr. OSWALD. This was July or August of 1953. I had my orders to go to Miami, Fla. I took a 10-day leave and left Millington, Tenn., by car and came to New York City and spent 10 days in New York with Lee, mother, John, and his family.

Mr. JENNER. Where did you stay?

Mr. OSWALD. At mother's apartment, with Lee, in the Bronx some place--I do not recall the address.

Mr. JENNER. What, if anything, did you learn at that time regarding Lee's attendance or nonattendance in school?

Mr. OSWALD. Nothing on that, sir. This was in the summer time. Lee, of course, was home and not supposed to be in school. And I do not think anything was brought up that I recall about whether or not Lee had been attending school regularly or not.

Mr. McKENZIE. Can we go off the record?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. DULLES. Back on the record.

Mr. JENNER. Referring to the 10-day leave in New York City, did you spend time with your brother Lee?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Your mother was working during that period of time, was she not?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. In spending time with him, did you take him around, or accompany him, visiting various places in New York City?

Mr. OSWALD. He took me around, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have occasion during that period to take any photographs, snapshots, of Lee?

Mr. OSWALD. I certainly can identify the one appearing in Life--yes, sir; I did.

Mr. JENNER. Just hold your answers right in this area exactly to my questions.

Mr. OSWALD. I'm sorry.

Mr. JENNER. Were these taken with your camera, or was it a camera that your mother or brother owned or had?

Mr. OSWALD. This was my camera.

Mr. DULLES. What do these questions refer to? Do they refer to the pictures in Life?

Mr. JENNER. Well, I really did not want to refer to that at the moment.

Do you remember any of the places at which you took snapshots of Lee during this 10-day leave?

Mr. OSWALD. The Bronx Zoo I believe was about the only time I can recall taking any pictures of him.

Mr. JENNER. I am at liberty to advise you, Mr. Oswald, that when your mother testified before the Commission she did produce a number of photographs, snapshots, and otherwise, among which was a snapshot of your brother, Lee, taken at the New York Zoo--that she testified was taken at the New York Zoo.

Is that the incident in which you took the photograph of your brother Lee, as far as you know?

Mr. OSWALD. You say the New York Zoo, sir. As far as I know there is just one zoo up there referred to as the Bronx Zoo. I do recall, and I still have the picture that I took of Lee at the Bronx Zoo. I certainly feel that perhaps either I sent copies of it to mother, or to Lee after I had the film developed.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, may I go off the record a moment?

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. DULLES. Back on the record.

Mr. JENNER. For the purpose of the record, I have before me the February 21, 1964, issue of Life magazine, on pp. 68-A, 68-B, and 70 of which there appear a number of photographs. I think it would be well if we gave this spread page an exhibit number. And since it really consists of two separate pages--the next exhibit numbers are what?

Mr. LIEBELER. 281 and 282.

Mr. JENNER. We will mark 68-B as 281 and page 69 as 282.

(The material referred to was marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 281 and 282, respectively, for identification.)

Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner--the only thing you are offering to the Commission at this time as I understand it are the pictures that appear on those two pages and not the text.

Mr. JENNER. That's correct, sir.

Directing your attention to page 69, identified as Commission Exhibit 282, there is a picture of a young boy and the background looks like it might be taken in a zoo. You mentioned that you had taken a snapshot of your brother on this 10-day leave.

Could you examine that and see if you can identify that as being the snapshot you took?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I do so identify that picture. That was taken at the Bronx Zoo--a picture of Lee Harvey Oswald, taken during my 10-day leave in New York City in 1953, approximately July or August of 1953.

Mr. JENNER. Was school in session at that time?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, school was not in session at that time. This was during the summer months.

Mr. JENNER. So there was no obligation on the part of your brother to have been in school at this particular time?

Mr. OSWALD. That's correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Now, appearing immediately above that snapshot is a snapshot or a photograph, a picture of two boys. Do you recognize either or both of those children?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do. I recognize the young boy standing, and I recognize him to be Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. And who is the boy appearing lower in that photograph?

Mr. OSWALD. I do not recognize him, sir.

Mr. JENNER. This is in the upper right hand corner of Commission Exhibit 282. Appearing immediately to the left--but before I proceed to that, are you able to identify that sufficiently to indicate to us the age of your brother at the time that picture was taken?

Mr. OSWALD. I would say he was approximately 11 or 12 years old at that time.

Mr. JENNER. And at this time he was residing where?

Mr. OSWALD. If he was 11 years old at the time the photograph was taken, he was residing in Fort Worth, Tex. If he was 12 years old, he would be residing in New York City.

Mr. JENNER. To the left appears another photograph of a young man in a striped shirt, a striped T-shirt. Do you observe that?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. JENNER. It is apparently a blowup from a group picture. Who is that?

Mr. OSWALD. I recognize him to be my brother, Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. And do you recognize the clothing, have you seen him in that clothing before?

Mr. OSWALD. Not that I recall. The tennis shoes look familiar.

Mr. JENNER. And are you able to make out the age of your brother at the time this picture was taken?

Mr. OSWALD. I would say approximately 10 or 11 years old.

Mr. JENNER. So if it were at age 10, he would have been residing where?

Mr. OSWALD. In Fort Worth, Tex.

Mr. JENNER. And you have already given the age.

To the left of that picture is another photograph or apparently a snapshot. I notice that there are part of some persons behind the central figure. Do you recognize the figure in that photograph?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes; I do.

Mr. JENNER. Who is it?

Mr. OSWALD. I recognize it to be Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. At what age?

Mr. OSWALD. Seven or eight years old.

Mr. JENNER. And assuming age 7, where was he residing at that time?

Mr. OSWALD. This would be--the year when he was 7 would be 1946 or 1947. He would be residing in Fort Worth, Tex.

Mr. JENNER. And if he were 8, he still would be residing in Fort Worth, Tex.

Mr. OSWALD. That's correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. To the left of that picture is a picture of--I don't know whether that is one snapshot or two.

Mr. OSWALD. It is one, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Showing three persons, three children. Are you able to identify all three?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I am.

Mr. JENNER. Would you please identify and give the ages?

Mr. OSWALD. Left to right, I identify myself at the age of 10.

Mr. JENNER. With the sailor hat on?

Mr. OSWALD. With the sailor hat on, right. In the center I identify it to be Lee Harvey Oswald at the age of 5. On the far right I identify John Edward Pic at the age of 12.

Mr. JENNER. And you boys were residing where at that time?

Mr. OSWALD. At Dallas, Tex., on Victor Street. That was taken right outside, at the side of the house.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the circumstances under which the picture was taken?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; other than we wanted to take some pictures.

Mr. JENNER. Your present recollection is who took the picture?

Mr. OSWALD. My mother.

Mr. JENNER. In the background is what?

Mr. OSWALD. The house that we lived in on Victor Street.

Mr. JENNER. There is a spread picture at the bottom of the double page. Are you familiar with the area which is shown in that picture?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I am.

Mr. JENNER. What is that area?

Mr. OSWALD. That is on the playground of Ridglea West Elementary School.

Mr. JENNER. And do you recognize any of the persons shown in that reproduction?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. JENNER. Would you identify those, if any, you so recognize?

Mr. OSWALD. The only person I recognize in this photograph is this young man right here--I do not recall his name--I believe his name was Donald. He lived right around the corner from us.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Oswald, I hand you a brush pen. Would you indicate by an arrow the person to whom you made reference? Thank you.

Would you do the same on the picture identified in the extreme upper right hand corner on Exhibit 282.

Now, I notice on the spread picture at the bottom of the page, which was identified as a schoolmate, that there is to the left of that picture a picture with an imprinted arrow. Do you recognize the person to whom the arrow is pointing?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. JENNER. Are you able to say whether that is or is not your brother Lee?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; from this picture, I cannot determine if it is Lee or not.

Mr. JENNER. Are you able to see it clearly enough to say that it is not?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I am not able to see it clearly enough to make a positive statement one way or the other. It appears to be a little fuzzy.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have an opinion as to whether it is or not?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. JENNER. You just do not recognize it?

Mr. OSWALD. I just do not recognize it.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Now on page 68-A, which we will mark as Commission Exhibit No. 283--do you recognize that photograph depicted on that page?

(The material referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 283 for identification.)

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. JENNER. Who is it?

Mr. OSWALD. I recognize Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. Have you seen the original of that reproduction?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I most certainly have. I might add that I wore that same baby suit.

Mr. JENNER. That is shown in that picture?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. And John Edward did, too.

Mr. JENNER. Now, turning to pages 70 and 71, which we will have marked as Commission Exhibit 284, so far as page 70 is concerned, and page 71 marked as 285.

(The material referred to was marked respectively Commission Exhibits Nos. 284 and 285 for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. Spread across page 70 and partially on page 71 is a photograph, or a reproduction of a photograph.

Do you recognize any of the persons depicted on that spread page?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And do you recognize more than one person?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. JENNER. And which one do you recognize?

Mr. OSWALD. In the foreground on the left-hand side, on page 70, I recognize that to be Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. Is that the boy with the V-shaped design on his sweater or T-shirt, with his hand on his chest?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Would you identify that by an arrow.

Are you able to, in looking at that--to tell at what age that was taken, and where?

Mr. OSWALD. I would say approximately 14 years old. I cannot recognize the classroom there. At 14 Lee would have been----

Mr. JENNER. He was in New York City, was he not?

Mr. OSWALD. 1953, yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. On page 72, which we will mark as Commission Exhibit 286, there is a photograph or reproduction of a photograph in the lower right-hand corner.

(The material referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 286 for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. Do you recognize anyone in that reproduction?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recognize both people?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. JENNER. Would you indicate the person you recognize?

Mr. OSWALD. I recognize the person on the left-hand side of this photograph.

Mr. JENNER. That is the man?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I recognize him to be Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. At about what age?

Mr. OSWALD. Since I am aware of where this picture was taken, at the age of 17.

Mr. JENNER. Would you elaborate----

Mr. OSWALD. I am aware where this picture was taken. This is in Arlington Heights High School. I believe this exhibit right behind him in the background was on the third floor of Arlington Heights High School.

Mr. JENNER. And that was taken at the high school?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And he was of what age at that time?

Mr. OSWALD. 17.

Mr. JENNER. Well, it is pretty clear, since there is a gentleman and a lady in this picture, the only two persons indicated, and you have identified your brother--would you still, however, put a arrow pointing to your brother. Thank you.

Turning to page 74-A, which is Commission Exhibit 287, there are two pictures reproduced in the lower right-hand corner.

(The material referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 287 for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. Do you recognize those?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. JENNER. And would you state what they are?

Mr. OSWALD. Both pictures are pictures of Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. And he appears to be in military garb. Were those taken when he was in the Marines?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. By the way, did you see him in his service uniform at any time?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. But you do recognize these pictures as depicting your brother?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. On pages 74 and 75 of Life Magazine, which will be Commission Exhibits 288 and 289, there is a spread picture.

(The material referred to was marked Commission Exhibit Nos. 288 and 289, respectively, for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. Do you recognize any of the persons depicted in that spread picture?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do, but only one.

Mr. JENNER. Identify the one you recognize, and locate it in the picture.

Mr. OSWALD. I recognize Lee Harvey Oswald being in the foreground of the picture, approximately in the center of the picture.

Mr. JENNER. Would you identify him with this brush pencil?

Then on Exhibit 288, which is page 74-B of this issue of Life Magazine, there appears at the bottom a reproduction of identity cards. I direct your attention to the left-hand identity card upon which appears a photograph, a reproduction of a photograph. Do you recognize that?

Mr. OSWALD. I would have to say that he appears heavier, his face is fuller, he has more hair on his head, but the eyes and the nose and the mouth are Lee Harvey Oswald's. I had not studied that picture before. But he does seem to be quite fullfaced, if that is the terminology to use there, and much more hair on his head--there again in relation to the hair I am assuming here this photograph of Lee was taken after he returned from Russia.

Mr. JENNER. I would rather not have you assume anything at the moment.

Do you identify that as a reproduction of a picture of your brother?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. JENNER. Are you acquainted with--were you at the time acquainted with the circumstances under which there was issued or purported to be issued a Selective Service System classification card in the name of Alek James Hidell?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I was not.

Mr. JENNER. And did you ever have a discussion with your brother with respect to his use, if he did, of the name Alek James Hidell, A. J. Hidell, or any combination of that, in which the surname Hidell was employed?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. And if I may say, at no time have I ever known him to use any other name than Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. I take it, then, you are unacquainted with any circumstances under which he employed, if he did employ at any time, the surname Hidell?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Or any other alias?

Mr. OSWALD. That's correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever know him to employ an alias?

Mr. OSWALD. No, I had not.

Mr. JENNER. Have you ever employed one?

Mr. OSWALD. Off the record, please.

Mr. JENNER. I will withdraw that question.

Mr. OSWALD. This is what it amounts to.

Mr. McKENZIE. Let me state this for the purposes of the record. In order to avoid publicity or avoid newsmen, we did travel to Friendship Airport from Dallas, Texas, yesterday evening, February 19th, and Robert Oswald traveled under the name of F. M. Johnson.

Mr. DULLES. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. DULLES. Back on the record.

Mr. JENNER. On the following page, which is page 76, Commission Exhibit 290, is a photograph, reproduction of a photograph in the lower right-hand corner.

(The material referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 290 for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. You recognize the person depicted in that photograph?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. JENNER. Would you identify them?

Mr. OSWALD. I recognize the two people in the photograph--the woman being Mrs. Marina Oswald, and the man being Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. Have you ever seen that picture before?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I believe I have.

Mr. JENNER. Did you see it prior to November 22, 1963?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I believe I did, and the reason why I say I believe--I believe I either have a copy of this photograph myself, or one very, very similar to it.

Mr. JENNER. How did you come into the possession of the photograph?

Mr. OSWALD. Lee had sent it to me from Russia, showed me pictures of him and his wife on their wedding day in April, 1961. I received the photographs, though, in approximately May, 1961.

Mr. JENNER. Do you still have those photographs in your possession?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do. If I may say, I did turn over I believe four photographs that Lee had sent me from Russia, and I believe in all four photographs Lee and Marina were in them. And I turned these over to Mr. Jim H. Martin.

Mr. JENNER. But they are your personal property.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; they are.

Mr. JENNER. I want to get into that period of time when you were in correspondence with your brother at a later moment.

Turning now to page 78, which is Commission Exhibit 291, in the lower left-hand corner of that is a reproduction, or what purports to be a reproduction of a photograph.

(The material referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 291 for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. Do you recognize either of the two persons depicted in that photograph?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I recognize the man on the right with the piece of paper in his hand, and a notebook I believe under his left arm, to be Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recognize the other man who is partially shown in that photograph?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. JENNER. Did you see that photograph at any time prior to November 22, 1963?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had not.

Mr. JENNER. And on page 80, which is Commission Exhibit No. 292, there are two photographs, one showing a lady and a child, in the upper right-hand corner.

(The material referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 292 for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. Directing your attention to that picture first, do you recognize either of the persons shown in that photograph?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do. I recognize both persons.

Mr. JENNER. Would you identify them, please?

Mr. OSWALD. The child is June Lee Oswald, and the woman is Mrs. Marina Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. And June Oswald is your brother's child?

Mr. OSWALD. That's correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Had you seen that photograph at any time prior to November 22, 1963?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had not.

Mr. JENNER. In the lower right-hand corner is a photograph of a man holding a firearm or rifle with a pistol on his right hip and some papers of some kind in--he is holding the rifle in his left hand, the papers in his right hand. Do you recognize the person depicted in that photograph?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do. I recognize him to be my brother, Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. Had you seen that photograph at any time prior to November 22, 1963?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had not.

Mr. JENNER. Have you seen the photograph of which that is a reproduction since November 22, 1963?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have.

Mr. JENNER. Under what circumstances?

Mr. OSWALD. At the Inn of the Six Flags at Arlington. Tex., approximately November 27, 1963, in the presence of U.S. Secret Service and Marina Oswald and myself.

Mr. DULLES. Your mother was not there then?

Mr. OSWALD. She was there at the time, but I do not believe she was in the room when this photograph was shown.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibits 281 through 292 the pages of the issue of Life Magazine I have identified that bear those exhibit numbers.

Mr. DULLES. Yes. I understand counsel for Mr. Oswald has pointed out that I believe you are offering only the photographs and not the text?

Mr. JENNER. Thank you, sir. May I amend my offer. I offer in evidence the reproduction of photographs which the witness has identified that appear on Commission Exhibits 281 through 292.

Mr. DULLES. They may be accepted.

(The portion of the documents heretofore marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 281 through 292 for identification were received in evidence.)

Mr. JENNER. I do not offer any of the text or any other portions of those pages.

Mr. DULLES. That is so noted.

Mr. JENNER. Are there any other events or happenings or circumstances during this 10-day period in New York City that come to your mind? You have told of the incident of taking the photograph which was identified. You told of visiting various places in New York City and being with your brother Lee. Was it a good deal during this 10-day period?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; practically every day, and practically every night, with two exceptions at night, where my brother John fixed me up with a blind date for one night only--no, I take that back. It would be just one night Lee was not with me, and that would be on the night I had a blind date with a girl from New York City, with my brother John and his wife.

Mr. JENNER. Did you and your brother Lee visit your brother John's home during this 10-day stay?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, we did not.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have any discussion with your brother Lee--put it this way--did you become aware during this 10-day period as to whether your mother and brother had stayed with your brother John at any time during their New York visit?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. It was my understanding that when they first arrived in New York for a brief period they stayed together.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion with you as to why they left the home of your brother John?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not to any extent--no, sir, no discussion.

Mr. JENNER. No discussion of any difficulties or any incidents that had arisen while they were living with your brother John's family?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. That induced or had a bearing upon leaving and taking an apartment in the Bronx?

Mr. OSWALD. I do not know of any discussion or any difficulty that was mentioned to me, but I understand there was some difficulty.

Mr. JENNER. Please, Mr. Oswald--the subject was not discussed with you during the 10-day period you were on leave?

Mr. OSWALD. That's correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Was it discussed with you at any time prior to November 22, 1963?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion on the subject of your brother's progress in schooling in New York City?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; there was not.

Mr. JENNER. Was the subject of his attendance at school, whether the attendance was good or bad--was school discussed at all, as you recall?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not to my recollection.

Mr. JENNER. And as a layman, and acquainted with your brother, what was your impression? Give us your present impression of your brother's state of mind during that 10-day period. Was he normal and happy and friendly?

Mr. OSWALD. He was very normal. He did not appear to be unhappy. He was quite happy to see me. We spent a good deal of time together during that 10-day visit. At no time did he act abnormally.

Mr. JENNER. Did he complain to you about school?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not.

Mr. JENNER. In general did he complain about anything--any special gripes?

Mr. OSWALD. None that I recall, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall that as being a happy 10-day visit on your 10-day leave in New York City?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Both you and your brother?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that's correct.

Mr. JENNER. Did you spend time with your mother as well as your brother Lee during the 10-day period?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. JENNER. That would be when--the evenings and on Sunday?

Mr. OSWALD. Generally in the evenings. That is the way I recall it.

Mr. JENNER. You and your brother Lee and your mother--did you do any visiting during the evening, movies, any entertainment, go out?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; Lee and I did. Mother did not join us.

Mr. JENNER. What was your impression of your mother's state of mind and well-being and her general feeling while you were there during that 10-day period?

Mr. OSWALD. May I have that again, please?

(The reporter read the pending question.)

Mr. OSWALD. My impression of my mother at that time was that she was still having a little difficulty making enough money to have the things that she wanted to have, I should say. But generally her health was good, and nothing that I recall comes to mind that would indicate that there was any difficulty between her and Lee. They seemed to be getting along quite well.

Mr. JENNER. Your impression during the 10-day period, I take it then, was that the relationship between your mother and Lee was friendly, was it?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that's correct.

Mr. JENNER. Were there any arguments during the time you were there between them?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; there were.

Mr. JENNER. Did he at any time during that period--was he discourteous to his mother?

Mr. OSWALD. If I may in my own words here, sir----

Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir.

Mr. OSWALD. The word "discourteous"--my mother did not wish us to go to certain places--I say certain places--I do not recall the places. She just did not want us going, inasmuch as we were going during the day. I wanted to see as much of New York as I could while I was there. And I recall that Lee and mother and I had something of an argument in reference to staying away from the house during the day so long, and so forth. And it was not her wish that we do that. And if this was being discourteous--that is why I qualify that.

Mr. JENNER. Nothing extraordinary.

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Now, your leave terminated. You went back to Florida, and you eventually wound up in Korea.

Mr. OSWALD. That's correct, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Could I ask a question before we leave the New York period?

While you were there, was there any discussion about these absences from school which I think took place just the months before you were there--although I am not absolutely clear on that. It seems to me as I understand it your mother and Lee arrived in the Bronx area around September of '52, I think it was, and this was in the summer of '53 that you visited them there, is that correct?

Mr. OSWALD. That's correct, sir.

Mr. DULLES. So that according to what I recall--and this may not be accurate--what is referred to as the truancy, the 46 days absence from school, had occurred some time prior to your visit. Maybe you do not recall that. That did not come up at all?

Mr. OSWALD. No; it did not come up at all.

Mr. DULLES. Did anything come up about a psychiatric examination?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it did not.

Representative FORD. There was no mention of the farm?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. DULLES. So the psychiatric examination was not mentioned in your presence?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. It had taken place I think in May of 1953.

Mr. OSWALD. If I may, sir--mother did mention that Lee had appeared before a judge, and she said it was a Negro judge. I asked why, and she said because he had been absent from school too long, no specific dates or length of time was mentioned, and that they were stricter in New York about that than in Texas.

Representative FORD. Did this bother her, disturb her? Did she indicate the reaction to that?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir--at that time I do not recall any reaction that she had, or any comment she made about it. She just very briefly stated that he had appeared before this Negro judge in New York City, and just what I previously related about it. That was the only thing she said about it.

Representative FORD. She did not mention a man named Carro?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; nobody's name was mentioned, not even the judge's name.

Mr. JENNER. To the best of your present recollection, that is about all that occurred in the way of conversation respecting some possible truancy?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. That is all you now can recall.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that's correct.

Mr. JENNER. You were mustered out of the Marines in July of 1955.

Mr. OSWALD. That's correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you return--well, when you were mustered out, where did you go?

Mr. OSWALD. Fort Worth, Tex.

Mr. JENNER. And where were your mother and brother living at that time?

Mr. OSWALD. In New Orleans, La.

Mr. JENNER. Were you still single?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Would you explain why you went to Fort Worth, Tex., rather than to New Orleans?

Mr. OSWALD. I considered Fort Worth, Tex., my home. I wanted to go there. I had quite a few friends. I wanted to find a job in Fort Worth, Tex. And that is where I wanted to live.

Mr. JENNER. And you did undertake residence there?

Mr. OSWALD. I did, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Have you continued to be a resident of Fort Worth, Tex., ever since?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I have not.

Mr. JENNER. Indicate in short compass where you have resided since you got out of the service?

Mr. OSWALD. From 1955 I resided in Fort Worth, Tex., until March of 1963. From March of 1963 until September 1963, I resided in Malvern, Ark. And from September until present date I have resided in Denton, Tex.

Mr. JENNER. Did you visit your mother and your brother in New Orleans when you returned from the service in July of 1955?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did. I did not--yes, sir, it was in July 1955 when I made my first trip from Fort Worth, Tex., to New Orleans, La. I had purchased a car the second day I was home from the service, a 1951 Chevrolet, and I drove it on the third day or the second night to New Orleans, La.

Mr. JENNER. Were your quarters in a hotel, or did you join your brother and mother?

Mr. OSWALD. I joined my mother and brother.

Mr. JENNER. How long did you stay in New Orleans on that trip?

Mr. OSWALD. Approximately 1 week.

Mr. JENNER. And you lived with your mother and brother?

Mr. OSWALD. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. That was in July of 1955?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that's correct.

Mr. JENNER. He was not in school at that time.

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he was not.

Mr. JENNER. Now, how did you find your brother, as to the state of health and state of mind?

Mr. OSWALD. He seemed to be the same to me. He had joined at that time--no, sir--he had not at that time been in the Civil Air Patrol. At that time Lee was working I believe for an export firm there in New Orleans. I do not know the name of it. I do not believe I ever heard the name of it. I might have. Mother was also working at that time.

Mr. JENNER. Had you seen your brother in the interim--that is the interim between the 10-day leave in New York City and your return from Korea in July of 1955?

Mr. OSWALD. There was one leave, or perhaps it was this time in 1955 that Lee was in the Civil Air Patrol there in New Orleans, because I remember his uniform that he had. And we went out to lunch on a Sunday afternoon. And he had his uniform on--mother, he, and I.

Mr. McKENZIE. Robert, he asked you this--if between the time you went to New York City and left there, and the time you went to Korea and came back, and you were mustered out of the Marine Corps, did you see your brother at any time during that period of time?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I recall now. Leaving Miami, Fla., in 1954--January or February--I took another 10-day leave, I believe it was, and I traveled to New Orleans first, where mother and Lee was, and at this time he was in the Civil Air Patrol. And I spent 3 or 4 days there in New Orleans.

Mr. JENNER. You stayed with your mother and brother?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes; I did.

Mr. DULLES. When you come to a good place, Mr. Jenner, we will stop for 5 minutes.

Mr. JENNER. The Commission's convenience is my convenience.

Representative BOGGS. May I ask one or two questions.

Your brother John--is he alive?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Representative BOGGS. Where is he?

Mr. OSWALD. San Antonio, Tex., in the U.S. Air Force.

Mr. DULLES. He is a half brother.

Representative BOGGS. He is your older brother?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Representative BOGGS. How old is he?

Mr. OSWALD. He is 32 now.

Representative BOGGS. You never had any problems in school or in the Marine Corps, did you--I mean serious problems?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; no serious problems.

Representative BOGGS. You always had problems. But you never were in any trouble?

Mr. OSWALD. I have never been in any serious trouble in my life.

Representative BOGGS. Ever been arrested?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. The only time I was on the inside of a jail was one time in Hazel, Tex., when I refused to sign a traffic ticket on the spot and I requested to be taken to the courthouse.

Representative BOGGS. Did you ever have any psychiatric mental troubles?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

Representative BOGGS. Did you consider your brother a normal human being?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I most certainly did.

Representative BOGGS. In every way?

Mr. OSWALD. In every way.

Representative BOGGS. Did he ever give you any indications of being--did he ever discuss with you such things as shooting at General Walker?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. McKENZIE. In order to clear something up, Mr. Boggs, let me ask one question, if I may, for the record.

Mr. DULLES. Please. Do you want this on the record or off?

Mr. McKENZIE. Robert, from the time that your brother, Lee Harvey Oswald came back from Russia, when was this?

Mr. OSWALD. This was in June 1962.

Mr. McKENZIE. And then when was the next time that you saw him after he came to your home in Fort Worth, Tex., in June of 1962?

Mr. DULLES. Just after he returned from Russia?

Mr. McKENZIE. Yes.

Mr. OSWALD. I saw him on a number of occasions there in Fort Worth, Tex., after he moved out of my residence to mother's, from mother's apartment to his apartment with Marina, and the children, and when they moved to Dallas, Tex., that was the last time I saw him.

Mr. McKENZIE. When did he move to Dallas, Tex.

Mr. OSWALD. This was approximately October 1962.

Mr. McKENZIE. All right, from the time of October 1962, when was--from then when was the next time you saw him?

Mr. OSWALD. On November 23, 1963.

Mr. McKENZIE. Where was that?

Mr. OSWALD. At the Dallas County Jail or Dallas City Jail.

Mr. McKENZIE. It was the Dallas City Jail.

Mr. OSWALD. Dallas City Jail.

Mr. McKENZIE. What were those circumstances? Were you in a room with him or were you talking to him through a partition or over a telephone or what, explain that to the Commission, if you will?

Mr. OSWALD. I was talking to him over a telephone through a glass window, and he was on the locked side.

Mr. McKENZIE. So for a period of over a year from the time he left Fort Worth and moved to Dallas, Tex., you did not see him, is that correct?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. McKENZIE. All right

Representative BOGGS. When you last saw him was October 1962, is that what you said?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. McKENZIE. And you had previously seen him when he resided in your home for how long a period of time?

Mr. OSWALD. Approximately 6 to 8 weeks.

Mr. DULLES. I imagine this would be covered later but it fits in. I think you are quite right. I have a question or two.

Representative BOGGS. I have to go back to the House in a few minutes.

Mr. DULLES. Go right ahead. Ask him any questions you wish to.

Representative BOGGS. At the time he resided in your home these 6 or 8 weeks were your relations with him cordial or friendly?

Mr. OSWALD. It was cordial, yes, more or less like he had not been to Russia. We were just together again.

Representative BOGGS. Did you have any political discussions with him at any time?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Representative BOGGS. He never discussed political matters with you?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not. I would say we had a tacit agreement it was never brought up.

Representative BOGGS. By tacit, do you mean that----

Mr. OSWALD. An unspoken agreement that we never would discuss it.

Representative BOGGS. I understand. Had you arrived at this agreement because on previous occasions you had disagreed about political matters?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; that was not the reason. We just never discussed politics.

Representative BOGGS. Did you have any interest in political affairs, I mean----

Mr. OSWALD. A little bit, sir.

Representative BOGGS. I mean from a philosophical point of view?

Mr. OSWALD. My own interest in politics from a philosophical point of view would be that I considered myself a conservative, a born conservative. Certainly agreed 100 percent with the U.S. Constitution and the laws that are set forth, and it is my upbringing, it is what I always believed in and I will always believe in it.

Representative FORD. Did you say that was your mother's philosophy, too?

Mr. McKENZIE. No, sir; he did not say.

Mr. OSWALD. Would I say that?

Representative FORD. Yes.

Mr. OSWALD. I would say--I will tell you, at this present time I feel like perhaps she has been hurt a great deal and perhaps her thinking is being changed at this very moment and at the present time since November 22d.

But prior to that time my opinion would be that she would be of the same opinion that I was.

Representative FORD. That is why you said your attitude was based on your upbringing.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. Of course, to qualify that my mother didn't actually bring me up too much. The orphan home and the military academy, and I believe there my basic philosophy was formulated. It was a very good school.

Representative BOGGS. What military academy was that?

Mr. OSWALD. Chamberlain Hunt Military Academy at Port Gibson, Miss.

Representative FORD. During the 6 or 8 weeks that Lee resided in your home, did he ever indicate why he went to Russia? You must have talked about it some.

Mr. OSWALD. There again I believe we did more talking through the mails about why he went to Russia than we did when he returned from Russia. I, of course, wanted to talk to him about this.

Mr. DULLES. You have those letters, I believe.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; we have those letters.

Mr. McKENZIE. Those letters have already been given to the Commission.

Mr. JENNER. We will present them in evidence, I think probably this afternoon.

Representative BOGGS. Did he ever tell you?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not point blank did he ever tell me why he went to Russia.

Representative BOGGS. Did he tell you why he came back?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that he was in--the letters that I have from him while he was in Russia would indicate the same thing, that he was very unhappy living in Russia and he wanted to return to the United States, which, of course, made me very happy, and I felt like, and tried to look at it from the standpoint that maybe he just sowed some wild oats. He kind of went off to the far end of it, but I believe everyone of us at one time, especially around that age, might have done something or reached out far afield, so to speak, before we came to our senses and returned to a normal life.

Mr. DULLES. Did he seem different when he came back from Russia, was there a change in the man before and after?

Mr. OSWALD. Physically?

Mr. DULLES. No, I mean at all--changes, outlook, attitude and general----

Mr. OSWALD. The mental attitude he had from his letters that he wrote me when he first arrived in Russia were quite disturbing to me. Statements, various statements, I can't quote them word for word, but in the line of--well, he wanted to denounce his citizenship. He was a Marxist and he was a Communist and he wanted to stay in Russia, and so forth.

But when he started writing again in 1961--yes, 1961, his letters certainly indicated that he had changed his mind, and that he wanted to return to the United States and start his life as a U.S. citizen.

Representative BOGGS. You got to know Mrs. Oswald when she returned with him?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Representative BOGGS. Was the relationship between your family and your wife and Mrs. Oswald, of course, I realize you had a language barrier, but was it pleasant?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I would describe it as very pleasant. We immediately, my wife and I both, took to Marina and June, the baby, at that time, and my wife and I both were just tickled to death, so to speak, for an opportunity to be with somebody like Marina and to show her things that she had never seen before in her life.

Representative BOGGS. In the time, of course, you had known her ever since she came here, and you have seen her since the assassination of President Kennedy, have you had any feeling that she was anything other than a normal housewife? You know there has been speculation that in light of the fact she was born in Russia and that she got an exit visa without too much difficulty that maybe she had connections that were not entirely just that of a normal housewife. Did you ever have any feeling----

Mr. OSWALD. The only time I had any reservations about Marina Oswald was on Friday, November 22, until approximately 2 days later. I say during this 2-day period I was not sure whether or not she had been involved in any of the happenings of that date. I wanted not to believe that she did, but I wanted to be cautious about it. I believe on Sunday night, November 24, in my presence she gave a complete--and freely stated everything up to that time that she was aware of to the U.S. Secret Service on a tape recorder. And I formulated my opinion then that apparently, and I feel this way now, that she did not have anything to do with that, and she is nothing other than just what she appears to be, just a housewife, having a very difficult time at this time.

Representative BOGGS. Have you in your own mind reached any conclusions on whether or not your brother killed President Kennedy?

Mr. OSWALD. Based on the circumstantial evidence that has been reported in newspapers and over the radio and television, I would have to say that it appears that he did kill President Kennedy.

Representative BOGGS. Would you, having reached that conclusion under the circumstances that you outlined a moment ago, and having known him all of his life, although not too intimately the last year of his life, would you give us any reason for why he may have done this?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I could not.

Representative BOGGS. It came as, I would think, a great shock to you?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it certainly did, and I might add that the Lee Harvey Oswald that I knew would not have killed anybody.

Representative BOGGS. Have you discussed this matter with your stepbrother since it happened?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Representative BOGGS. This, as I understand, Mr. Counsel, is hearsay but we are just trying to establish----

Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Boggs, in order that the record be absolutely clear, you were not here when we commenced this morning due to your duties at the House, let me state this for the purpose of the record and yourself and the entire Commission, you ask Robert Oswald any question that you want to ask him.

Representative BOGGS. Thank you very much.

Mr. McKENZIE. And furthermore, any information we have or any information we can get from any source will likewise be turned over to the Federal Bureau of Investigation or to this Commission or to any other investigative agency, because----

Representative BOGGS. The mandate that we are operating under is that we discover the truth.

Mr. McKENZIE. I can assure you, sir, that the main reason that we are here, and I speak for Robert Oswald, is to see that the truth is given fully, and developed as fully as possible, to give any light to this tragic event.

Representative BOGGS. I just have one or two other questions.

Mr. OSWALD. I believe your last question was whether or not----

Representative BOGGS. I am frankly reluctant to ask you the question, but you and your brother John must have speculated about how this event could have happened, did you not?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, and no, sir. To this extent: On Sunday night November 24, with the help of the Secret Service, I was able to reach my older brother John by telephone. He did not have a telephone in his house. We had to go through the Air Force base where he was located.

Mr. DULLES. Where was he living then?

Mr. OSWALD. In San Antonio with the Air Force.

I talked to him that night and, of course, at that time he was aware that Lee had been killed. I talked briefly to him, I say briefly, perhaps 4 or 5 minutes, and discussed with him whether or not he thought it was best that he attended the funeral or not, and it was my opinion that it would not be best for him or his family since he was, his name was Pic, and to a great extent he would be out of the picture and there was no sense in exposing him to the publicity of the funeral. Not to mention the travel time involved in coming up from San Antonio and the like.

Mr. DULLES. You were not in touch with him between the time of the assassination and the arrest of your brother and the time of his death, the 36 hours?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. DULLES. You were not in touch with your brother Pic at that time?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I was not.

Mr. McKENZIE. But you attempted to reach him?

Mr. OSWALD. No.

Mr. McKENZIE. You did afterwards.

Representative BOGGS. Have you seen much of your mother since the assassination?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not.

Representative BOGGS. Is this because you had some emotional problems or difficulties, or what?

Mr. OSWALD. Sir, I would say, of course, mother was out at the Inn of Six Flags with Marina and myself and the children during the week following up to Friday which would be, I believe, the 29th of November, when she went to her home and I left her to go after my wife and the children out at the farm, and Marina went over to Mr. Martin's house, this was the last time I have seen her since then. She has called quite a few times. I talked to her a number of times on the telephone. She is rather persistent to the extent that, and this is not new to me, we have never really gotten along, she tries to dominate me and my wife, and I might say that applies to John and his family, and also to the extent that it applied to Lee and his wife, and there is just generally the picture as far as I and my mother are concerned.

Representative BOGGS. That is all, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. DULLES. The testimony we had here from Mrs. Oswald indicated that it was approximately a year prior to the assassination of the President that he had not been in touch with his mother, and your testimony is to the general effect that about the same period, you had not been in touch.

Is that just a coincidence, or did something happen about that time so that both of you, both brothers more or less separated from the mother?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir----

Mr. DULLES. Maybe it is geographic, maybe there is some other reason for it.

Representative BOGGS. I had understood him to say he had not been in contact with his brother Lee, I didn't hear him say anything about his mother.

Mr. McKENZIE. That is correct. For the year prior to November 22d had you been in touch with your mother or had your mother been in touch with you, Robert?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; we had not been in touch.

Representative BOGGS. Your mother in her testimony before the Commission, gave the impression and later in press stories that she thought that maybe your brother was an agent of the CIA. Did you ever have any reason to think that?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; and the only time the thought ever entered my mind as to him being an agent of the CIA or any other U.S. Government bureau was on his return from Russia while residing at my residence in Fort Worth, the FBI had called and requested that he come down for an interview there in Fort Worth. On the completion of his interview when I came home from work that night, he discussed it briefly and I asked him how did they treat him, and so forth. He said just fine, and he says, "They asked me was I a secret agent," or some type of agent for the U.S. Government and he laughed and he said, "Well, don't you know?" I remember that. That was just crossed out of my mind.

Representative FORD. Between November 22 and the last time you saw your mother did she ever mention to you that she thought Lee was an agent of the Federal Government?

Mr. OSWALD. This was prior to November 22?

Representative FORD. No, from November 22 until the last time you saw your mother, did she ever mention to you that she thought Lee was an agent of the Federal Government?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; she did.

Representative FORD. Can you tell us when?

Mr. OSWALD. During the middle to the latter part of the week that we were at the Inn of the Six Flags, and at least one conversation since we left the Inn of the Six Flags, I think it took place during December 1963.

Mr. JENNER. By telephone or personal?

Mr. OSWALD. By telephone, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Would you be good enough to relate--for Representative Ford--who was present, what the circumstances were, what was said, and in the presence of whom by your mother at the Six Flags?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe it was just mother and I, and I might say on numerous occasions she pulled me to one side or to one room to say something to me. It was on one of these occasions that she was talking to me about this.

Mr. JENNER. Relate as closely as you can recall it now what did she say?

Mr. OSWALD. She said she had knowledge of facts in writing that almost conclusively proved to her that Lee was an agent of the CIA.

Mr. JENNER. Did she identify the facts in writing?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she did not.

Mr. JENNER. Did you inquire of her on that subject?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ask her to state to you the basis, any specific basis of hers on which she predicated her statement?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did ask her if she had such facts to please give it to the U.S. Secret Service.

Representative FORD. What did she say to that?

Mr. OSWALD. I think she more or less shrugged her shoulders and walked off.

Mr. DULLES. Had she been in touch with the man who has appeared as her counsel at that time, Mr. Lane?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she had not.

Mr. DULLES. She had not.

Representative BOGGS. You at various times have tried to help your mother, I gather, while you were growing up.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Representative BOGGS. I gather you found it rather difficult even when you were younger to get along with your mother?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, sir, is that also true of your brother, Lee, and your brother, John?

Representative BOGGS. Those were the questions I was about to ask.

Mr. OSWALD. I would say this would also apply to my older brother John, and also to Lee. It appears as though Lee was able to put up with her more than I or my older brother John could.

Representative BOGGS. Your father died when you were what, about 5?

Mr. OSWALD. Five years old, sir.

Representative BOGGS. You were living in New Orleans when he died?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Representative BOGGS. What did he do?

Mr. OSWALD. He worked for the Metropolitan Life Insurance Company of New Orleans, in the office in New Orleans.

Representative FORD. Were your mother and father living a happy normal life at the time of his death?

Mr. OSWALD. Well, sir, I was 5 years old and I would say that they were. Certainly I do not recall any instance that would indicate that they were not, and I think we had a very fine family atmosphere.

Mr. JENNER. Would you state for us, please, on the same subject, the life and relationship between your mother and Mr. Ekdahl, give us the same thing with respect to that period, did they get along well normally?

Mr. OSWALD. Well, I was, of course, older and perhaps remember more, to this extent that on perhaps two or three occasions, I recall some very loud arguments where they were in one room with the door closed, and perhaps I by myself or perhaps in the presence of John was in another room. Nothing that I can recall that was said during this arguing other than it was just loud.

Mr. JENNER. During this period, Representative Boggs, the two boys John and Robert were at the military school. They were home during the summer vacation period but otherwise they were in military school.

Mr. DULLES. I think maybe we ought to give the witness a little rest. He has been on for 2 hours.

Hale, have you got anything more you want to ask now?

Representative BOGGS. No, I would just like to thank the witness for his cooperation.

Mr. OSWALD. Thank you, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Do you have anything? Do you have to go back?

Representative FORD. I am going to stay until we get some notice from the House if we have any call or a vote.

Mr. DULLES. Shall we take just 5 minutes off then and it might be agreeable.

(Short recess.)

Mr. DULLES. Proceed, Mr. Jenner.

Representative FORD. It would be helpful because we are likely to get a call almost any time to go back to the House, if I could ask a few questions.

Mr. JENNER. Go right ahead.

Mr. DULLES. Okay.

Representative FORD. Mr. Oswald, what was your reaction to Lee's discharge from the Marine Corps?

Mr. OSWALD. He had an honorable discharge he told me. I had no adverse reaction to it.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have in mind, Representative Ford, the change in the status of that discharge?

Representative FORD. No, I was referring to the circumstances under which he was discharged prematurely. He did get an honorable discharge at the outset but he was released prematurely on a hardship basis.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes.

Representative FORD. Were you familiar with that?

Mr. OSWALD. I was not familiar with that at the time it was going on. Of course, I was familiar after he was released on that basis. I remember Lee telling me, he said, "Well, I only lack a month," or a few days anyway before his regular release was up and I believe that was all that was said between Lee and I about it.

Representative FORD. When did you learn about the change in his discharge?

Mr. OSWALD. Sometime during the year of 1960, through my mother. She had advised me at that time she had received mail for Lee from the Marine Corps or from the Navy Department, stating that generally the reasons he had not notified them of changes of address, and perhaps even to the extent that he had left the country in the manner that he did, that it was going to go before a review board, and that he was to appear before this board to state his case, otherwise it would proceed without him. Then I became aware that the board's decision was an undesirable or a dishonorable discharge, I don't recollect which.

Representative FORD. Did you take any action when you learned of these circumstances to help your mother or to contact Lee about this situation?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; because at this time in reference to Lee there he had already stopped writing to both I and mother and there was no way that we knew of to contact Lee, and mother said she was going to take care of it and try to have it postponed or something or other, and the board reached a final decision.

Representative FORD. When your mother went to Washington, did she tell you in advance or give you any indication she was going to do that?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she did not. I was aware of it after she came back from Washington.

Representative FORD. Did she fill you in in some detail about her return from Washington?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she did not. She did not go into any particular detail other than she tried to impress on me she had seen some, as she put it, some very important and influential people in Washington. And that was about the text of the conversation in reference to that.

Representative FORD. Did she volunteer this or did you ask her about it?

Mr. OSWALD. She volunteered this because I did not know of the trip to Washington until after she returned from the trip to Washington. She volunteered information to me that she had been in Washington and saw numbers of people, different people.

Representative FORD. The principal information you have about Lee's return from the Soviet Union is included in the letters that you have from Lee?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Representative FORD. Those will be submitted subsequently.

Mr. McKENZIE. They have been submitted already, Mr. Ford.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, did you address me?

Mr. McKENZIE. The Commission has copies of the letters.

Representative FORD. The Commission has copies and they will be submitted for the record.

Would you care to comment in addition on what you found out from Lee subsequently of his experiences in the Soviet Union. Why he wanted to come back?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I never questioned him about that because we covered it, I believe quite fully in our letters. I was, of course, thoroughly convinced and quite happy that he did want to return to the United States and I felt there was no need to go into the reason why he changed his mind because I believe we had covered that in the letters.

Representative FORD. At the time he indicated a desire to come back to the United States, did he ever contact you about funds for that purpose?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I volunteered to help him any way I could on that. He turned down the offer. He turned it down one time I believe in letters offering him to come stay at our house when he returned with his wife and the baby.

Representative FORD. When he did return, after having borrowed money from the Federal Government, did he ever ask you for any help and assistance in repaying the loan?

Mr. OSWALD. On his arrival in New York City, I believe the date to be June 13, back in 1962, my wife received a telephone call from Special Services Welfare Center located at New York City stating that Lee and his family were present and that they needed funds to reach their destination, Fort Worth, Tex., and the lady that talked to my wife put it to the extent they were unable to help them and if some member of the family was going to help them, they had better do so then. My wife didn't know anything else to say but of course that we would, and this is what I wanted her to say. She called me at my office that day. The banks had closed but I do have a friend in Fort Worth who was employed at a bank, cashier, I believe his title, and I called him and asked him if it would be possible to withdraw $200. This was not at my bank, I would give him a check on my checking account, and at which time I wired the money to the welfare bureau in New York, care of Lee Harvey Oswald.

Representative FORD. And that was the money that they, Marina and Lee, used to get to Fort Worth.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Representative FORD. Did Lee ever repay you for that?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he did. He had actually spent a little over $100 for the plane tickets and, of course, we met him at Dallas, Love Field, on their arrival there. The next day even though I insisted that he keep it, he returned what he had left from the $200 and he said he would pay me back as soon as he was able to and I told him not to worry about that, but just to take his time.

Representative FORD. How long did it take him to repay the remainder?

Mr. OSWALD. I say approximately $110 to $115 during the period he first started to work there in Fort Worth and prior to their departure to Dallas he repaid this $10-$20 a week from his pay check.

Representative FORD. Did you have any knowledge that Lee had become fluent in Russian, in the Russian language, at the time he came out of the Marine Corps?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had not. There is also one of his first letters from the hotel in Russia that he pointed out to me that I didn't even know that he could write or speak Russian. He was being rather sarcastic in his first letters, and he pointed this out. I would answer it that I was not aware that he could speak or could write any foreign language when he was in the Marine Corps and after he got out of it.

Representative FORD. You had no prior knowledge that he was studying Russian or had become articulate in Russian?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Representative FORD. In your experiences with Lee during your lifetime, did he ever show a skill at language, for languages?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I know of no time nor can I recall of any time that he studied any foreign language or in my presence that he even read a book in a foreign language or attempted to teach himself any type of foreign language.

Mr. JENNER. Representative Ford, if you have reached a break, I would like to identify the exhibit the witness provided and also identify the letter to which you now have reference.

Would you obtain that telegram and also identify the date of the letter to which you have lastly made reference so that I may identify our copies?

Mr. McKENZIE. November 8, 1959, is the letter, Mr. Jenner, and the telegram is June 14, 1962.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, we have marked photostatic copies of the telegram to which the witness referred as having been received from the Special Welfare Services as Commission Exhibit No. 293, and the letter of November 18, 1959, as Commission Exhibit 294.

(The telegram and letter referred to were marked Commission Exhibit Nos. 293 and 294, respectively, for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. Would you obtain the original of those or hand the witness the originals?

Mr. McKENZIE. I have just handed them to him.

Mr. JENNER. Would you hand him the original of the letter, please?

Directing your attention to the telegram first, Mr. Oswald, which is now marked Commission Exhibit 293, is that the original of the telegram to which you made reference as having been received first by telephone call through your wife on June 14, 19----

Mr. OSWALD. Pardon me, June 13.

Mr. JENNER. 13?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. This reply that we are referring to here now is June 14.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

Mr. OSWALD. We were first contacted on the evening of June 13.

Mr. JENNER. I take it then, sir, that you received a telephone call on June 13, is that correct?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Or your wife did. And Exhibit 293 which is dated the 14th, is what?

Mr. OSWALD. I am sorry, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Following the receipt of the telephone call on June 13, did you receive or did you send any communication from or to the New York Welfare Center?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I sent a telegram on the afternoon of June 13, 1962, wiring a total of $200 to the Special Service Welfare Center at New York, and also enclosing a message to Lee to contact me or to the extent that someone there perhaps would notify me when to expect them in Fort Worth.

Mr. JENNER. Did you receive word from New York as to when Lee and Marina might expect to be in Dallas?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. JENNER. And was that by telegram or telephone?

Mr. OSWALD. This was by telephone I first received the word.

Mr. JENNER. Did you receive something in writing that confirmed that?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. JENNER. Is that document before you?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it is.

Mr. JENNER. It is marked Commission Exhibit 293, and you actually received that document which is now before you?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. June 14.

Mr. Chairman, I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibit 293, the document so marked and identified.

Mr. DULLES. It may be accepted.

(The document heretofore marked Commission Exhibit No. 293 was received in evidence.)

Mr. JENNER. The letter of November 8, 19--do you have a better copy, is that 1959?

Mr. OSWALD. It is 1959.

Mr. DULLES. May I just ask a question, are we putting in the original of that or is a photographic copy being substituted for it?

Mr. JENNER. We are employing as a substitute for the original a photostatic copy which has been marked Commission Exhibit 293.

Mr. DULLES. All right.

Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Chairman, could I be excused for just a moment, please?

(Short recess.)

Mr. JENNER. In view of the witness' testimony, may I suggest to the Commission the feasibility of identifying this particular exhibit since the witness referred to it in response to the questions put by Representative Ford.

Mr. DULLES. All right.

Mr. JENNER. Would you identify the date of Commission Exhibit 294, the original?

Mr. OSWALD. The date of the letter is November 8, 1959.

Mr. JENNER. Whose handwriting is it?

Mr. OSWALD. It is in Lee Harvey Oswald's handwriting.

Mr. JENNER. It is addressed, the second page of the exhibit, is an envelope, which is addressed to R. Oswald, 7313 Davenport Street, Fort Worth, Tex., U.S.A., is that you?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Are you able to identify that which appears in the upper lefthand corner of the original.

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I am not.

Mr. JENNER. Is that in Russian?

Mr. OSWALD. I would assume that it would be.

Mr. JENNER. Did you receive the letter, Commission Exhibit 294, in due course?

Mr. OSWALD. I did. I received it on the 13th day of November 1959.

Mr. JENNER. Is this the letter to which you made reference in responding to Representative Ford's questions?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Is the letter in the same condition now and is the envelope now in the same condition now that it was when you received it except that the envelope has been opened to remove the contents?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; they are.

Mr. JENNER. Does that include the scratching out that appears at the bottom of the second page?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it does.

Mr. JENNER. Is that which appears under the attempted obliteration, can you see what was obliterated on the second page, when you examine the original?

Mr. OSWALD. I might refer to the first cross out there, it looks like he had signed his name there "Lee." The second cross out, one word or three words or four words out of the five are legible "this written in Russian" the balance of the words that were crossed out, I cannot make out.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, I would suggest, if I may, that the witness might read this short letter aloud to the Commission which will, indicate to the Commission the mental state of Lee Harvey Oswald at the time he went to Russia in the very early days, and bring it to your attention immediately.

Mr. DULLES. What is the date of this?

Mr. McKENZIE. November 8, 1959, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Proceed, if you will.

Mr. McKENZIE. Do you mind if I read it, Mr. Jenner, and saving his voice a little bit?

Mr. JENNER. No.

Mr. McKENZIE. This I believe is the second letter that Robert received from Russia after he had sent a telegram to Lee telling him what a mistake he had made, and this is the contents of the letter.

"November 8, 1959. Dear Robert:

"Well, what shall we talk about? The weather perhaps? Certainly you do not wish me to speak of my decision to remain in the Soviet Union and apply for citizenship here since I am afraid you would not be able to comprehend my reasons.

"You really don't know anything about me. Do you know, for instance, that I have waited to do this for well over a year? Do you know that I" then there is a parenthesis and some Russian printing which I presume to be Russian and the parenthesis is closed, "speak a fair amount of Russian which I have been studying for many months? I have been told that I will not have to leave the Soviet Union if I did not care to. This then is my decision. I will not leave this country, the Soviet Union under any conditions. I will never return to the United States which is a country I hate. Some day perhaps soon and then again perhaps in a few years I will become a citizen of the Soviet Union, but it is a very legal process in any event. I will not have to leave the Soviet Union and I will never leave.

"I received your telegram and I was glad to hear from you. Only one word bothered me. The word 'mistake' I assume you mean that I have made a 'mistake.' It is not for you to tell me this. You cannot understand my reasons for this very serious action. I will not speak to anyone from the United States over the telephone since it might be tapped by the Americans. If you wish to correspond with me you can write to the below address, but I really don't see what we could talk about. If you want to send me some money that I can use but I do not expect to be able to pay it back."

Then it is signed "Lee", and then over to the left-hand side on the bottom of the page it says, "Lee Harvey Oswald, Metropole Hotel, Room 233, Moscow, USSR," and then underneath some writing in Russian, which I take to be Russian, which is scratched out.

Mr. JENNER. Thank you.

Mr. McKenzie, you have stated that this was the second letter that had been received by Mr. Robert Oswald following Lee Harvey Oswald's taking up residence in Russia. Is that correct, Mr. Oswald?

Mr. McKENZIE. I said it is the second or third letter. I don't know exactly.

Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, it is the first letter, if I may have a moment here.

Mr. JENNER. I thought it was the first.

Mr. McKENZIE. There is one other letter here from Santa Ana, Calif.

Mr. JENNER. That was earlier.

Mr. OSWALD. This was the first letter Lee had written to me from Russia.

Mr. DULLES. Could you refresh my memory as to the date of his arrival in Russia?

Mr. OSWALD. October 13.

Mr. DULLES. October 13.

Mr. OSWALD. 1959.

Mr. DULLES. And this was----

Mr. JENNER. November 8.

Mr. DULLES. November 8. He had been there about 3 weeks.

Mr. OSWALD. The first time I was aware he was in Russia was on Halloween Day 1959, October 31.

Mr. DULLES. Thank you.

Mr. JENNER. My attention is arrested to that portion of the letter in which there appears to be a reference to a telegram which you had previously sent him.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Had you sent him such a telegram?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I had.

Mr. JENNER. What impelled you or induced you to do that? What event, stimulation?

Mr. OSWALD. After we were notified that Lee was in Russia.

Mr. JENNER. Who notified you?

Mr. OSWALD. Star Telegram reporter in Fort Worth, Tex. Later on that same day there was quite a few newspaper reporters out to my house. I first objected to speaking to them until they stated that perhaps if we cooperated with them they would perhaps be the only source of information--that they could relay to us when they received anything about what Lee was doing, and so forth, and I agreed to talk to them.

After this interview with three or four newspaper reporters they had left the house, and another man, I do not recall his name, from the Star Telegram in Fort Worth, came to the house, and I spoke with him, and I believe at this time he suggested that it would not be wise because I was asking what did he think as to how I might contact Lee, and he suggested a letter--pardon me, a telegram, to Secretary of State Christian Herter, and a telegram to Lee.

I called the Western Union and sent telegrams, and at this time----

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, sir, telegrams, you sent one to Mr. Herter and one to your brother?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; sent two. At this time I advised the reporter of the contents of the telegram. I did not receive confirmation of these telegrams from Western Union.

Mr. JENNER. I take it from that you do not have copies?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

However, they are printed in their entirety in the next edition of the Star Telegram, which I believe would be November 1st edition.

Mr. JENNER. November 1, 1959?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Would you please state to the best of your present recollection what your instruction by way of message was to the Western Union?

Mr. OSWALD. In the telegram to Secretary of State Christian Herter, I requested his assistance in contacting Lee Oswald through any means available.

Mr. JENNER. Did you indicate for what purpose, sir?

Mr. OSWALD. I don't believe I did, sir.

And the telegram to Lee Harvey Oswald, I asked him to contact me through any means available. I did use the word "mistake."

Mr. JENNER. Would you please give me your best recollection of the message, as you recall it, that you dispatched or ordered dispatched?

Mr. OSWALD. My best recollection of that is I sent the telegram to Lee Harvey Oswald care of the U.S. Embassy in Moscow, Russia, requesting Lee to contact me through any means available, and the one word "mistake. Keep your nose clean," signed "Robert L. Oswald, 7313 Davenport."

Mr. JENNER. The word "mistake" was by itself?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. The phrase of "keep your nose clean," is something we have said to each other since knee high, so he would know that I did send the telegram.

Mr. JENNER. Did you receive a response to that telegram?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not receive a response to either one of the telegrams.

Mr. JENNER. Neither from the State Department, Mr. Herter, nor an assistant on that telegram, nor from your brother Lee on his telegram?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Other than the letter of November 8, 1959, now identified as Commission Exhibit No. 294?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. It is the first word you had from him in which he acknowledges or made plain that he had received the telegram?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. DULLES. Excuse me, has 294 been submitted?

Mr. JENNER. I think it has not. May I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibit 294 the document that has been so identified.

Mr. DULLES. Accepted.

(The document heretofore marked Commission Exhibit No. 294 was received in evidence.)

Mr. JENNER. It being understood with Mr. McKenzie that we may introduce in evidence the photostatic copy in lieu of the original, the original having been produced before the Commission.

Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you speak, did you have any conversation with your brother upon his return from Russia respecting your dispatch of the telegram and his reaction to it?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. I had more or less forgotten it myself.

Mr. JENNER. There is a reference in your brother's letter of November 8 to his reluctance to engage in a telephone conversation. Had you attempted to reach him by telephone?

Mr. OSWALD. I had decided to try to reach him by telephone on Sunday, November 1, 1959. I did not.

Mr. JENNER. You were unable to, you mean?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. I placed the call and I received the New York operator, overseas operator, and there was some discussion as to what time it was in Moscow, and so forth, and I changed my mind and did not. However, I am aware that my mother tried and did for a moment have Lee on the telephone in Moscow.

Mr. JENNER. At that time?

Mr. OSWALD. At approximately that same date.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever make any effort to reach him by telephone thereafter?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. Did he reach you by telephone or attempt to do so as far as you know?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not to my knowledge did he.

Mr. JENNER. There is a reference in the letter of November 8 to his willingness to accept money from you if you would send any. Did you send him any money?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. My reply to that was if he used it to come back I would gladly send it.

Mr. JENNER. Your reply--did you write him a letter?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have a copy of that letter?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not have a copy of any letter that I wrote to him.

Mr. JENNER. You do not know the whereabouts of that letter?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not, other than to say that I asked Mrs. Marina Oswald if Lee kept any of my letters and her reply was that "No, he always threw them away."

Mr. JENNER. In view of that, Mr. Oswald, would you please recite to the best of your recollection the contents of your letter in response to your brother's letter of November 8, 1959?

Mr. OSWALD. Sir, I do not remember anything other than that statement referring to the money request. I do not recall anything else in the letter.

Mr. JENNER. You have heard Mr. McKenzie read that letter through. Did it refresh your recollection, or does it as to whether you made any comment upon his political statements in his letter to you of November 8?

Mr. OSWALD. I do not believe I did at any time make any statement in reference to his political statements that he made in the letter of November 8. Generally, my statements to the members of the press at the time was that I felt Lee was not aware of what he was doing. I believe I referred to him as a kid. And that he just generally didn't know what he was doing, and that was just about the general text of anything I had to say to the members of the press at that time.

Mr. JENNER. There is an entry in your brother's diary of November 1, 1959, somewhat cryptic, referring to three telephone calls from mother and brother. Now you say you didn't call. Do you know whether your brother John ever called him?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, not to my knowledge. However, that was November 1, sir, 1959.

Mr. JENNER. That is when the entry was made.

Mr. OSWALD. I would say that he did not at that time try to contact Lee by telephone, because I do not believe at that early date--he was in Japan and was not aware that Lee had gone to Russia, because we were just aware of it on October 31, and recalling a letter from John over there, that he was not aware of it for a number of days after he actually went over there.

Mr. JENNER. I see. But efforts were made on the part of your mother to reach him or she did reach him by telephone?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I understand he spoke to her briefly, and then he hung up.

Mr. JENNER. For the purpose of refreshing your recollection, would you be good enough to read your brother's letter to you or what purports to be your brother's letter to you of November 26, 1959, and in reading through it--the reason I have asked you to look at it is that the letter is framed as a response to what apparently were questions that you put to him in your letter which was in response to his letter of November 8, and seeking to refresh your recollection as to the contents of your letter.

Mr. Chairman, this is a fairly long letter, and if Chief Justice Warren has a little time perhaps we might have Mr. Oswald read the letter over this evening since we are quite late in the day and I can pursue it tomorrow.

Mr. DULLES. I think we had better adjourn fairly soon.

Mr. JENNER. This would be a convenient time if it is convenient with you gentlemen.

The CHAIRMAN. What does Mr. McKenzie think, I see him smiling.

Mr. McKENZIE. I am not going to place myself in a position, Mr. Chief Justice, of overruling either you or Mr. Dulles.

Mr. JENNER. I can question the witness with respect to some unrelated matters. That matter is not related to this, if I might.

Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, one thing I would appreciate if you could bring out in response to some of Mr. Bogg's questions which I don't believe he was quite clear on, I would like for the sake of the record to show what Robert's career in the Marine Corps was from the standpoint of whether he was a noncommissioned officer, and so forth, and so on, if you could bring that out.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

I had asked him to state his military career and maybe out of modesty he just left left that out.

Would you--you did give us in detail in your various stages and your specialty.

Mr. OSWALD. I might say going through boot camp at San Diego, Calif., during the second week of boot training I was selected as the right guide of the platoon which actually was a go-between the drill instructors and the rest of the platoon, and I retained that position all the way through the remainder of the boot camp. On completion of boot camp I was a Pfc. I retained that--excuse me, I retained that rank until I went to Miami, Fla., at which time on my departure from Miami, Fla., I received my corporal's stripe, and prior to leaving Korea in April of 1955 I received my sergeant's stripe which was my last stripe that I received in the Marine Corps.

I did receive, of course, an honorable discharge, a Good Conduct Medal, and the various citations of the unit in Korea, Presidential Unit Citations, and such.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Thank you.

I can't recall whether it was Representative Boggs or Representative Ford who was questioning you about conversations between yourself and your mother regarding her claim that your brother may have been a representative of the CIA or some other government agency, and you mentioned there were two occasions. I did ask you to state the detail of one of the occasions which was in the Six Flags Motel in Dallas.

Would you please state where the second conversation took place and who was present and what was said?

Mr. OSWALD. The second conversation took place over the telephone in a call that originated from my mother's house in Fort Worth, Tex., to my home in Denton, Tex.

I do not know if my wife was present at my end or who was present on the other end, at my mother's home.

Mr. JENNER. You recognized her voice?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. JENNER. It was your mother?

Mr. OSWALD. It was my mother.

Mr. JENNER. What did she say on the subject?

Mr. OSWALD. She was still pursuing this question or this speculation as far as I am concerned that Lee was an agent of the CIA, and that she was going to be able to, I believe use used the word "concrete", to be able to concretely establish that with the officials.

Mr. JENNER. You fixed that as having occurred subsequent to the occasion in the Six Flags Motel?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Can you fix the time of the second occasion more definitely than that it followed the other?

Mr. OSWALD. I would say this was approximately during the week of December 9, 1963.

Mr. JENNER. Was it before or after her trip to Washington which you have testified about when Mr. Ford questioned you?

Mr. OSWALD. This was before her trip to Washington.

Mr. JENNER. Now, when your mother returned from Washington, when she made her trip here about which you testified in response to questions from Representative Ford, did she say anything about her claim or speculation, as you put it, that your brother was or might have been an agent of the CIA or some other agency of the United States?

Mr. OSWALD. I have not talked to my mother since she has been to Washington.

Mr. JENNER. I see. So there has been no claim by her to you since the occasion of the second conversation which was a telephone call?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. During the time of your youth and your association with your brother Lee you testified this morning of the normal interest of boys in firearms. You have also testified that your brother Lee was right handed. Did you ever see him handle even a toy pistol or a cap gun other than with his right hand?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, not that I can remember. You, of course, recall sometimes when maybe he was Two-Gun Pete, so to speak.

Mr. JENNER. He was what?

Mr. OSWALD. He was Two-Gun Pete, so to speak, when we were playing cops and robbers or cowboys and Indians, where he would have two guns.

Mr. JENNER. With the exception of having two guns when he had one he had it in his right hand?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. What ever type of playing, shooting, sitting, or otherwise, he always had the pistol, rifle or cap gun in his right hand?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. You said you were using B-B guns. Were there occasions when Lee also occasionally shot a B-B gun rifle?

Mr. OSWALD. Not to my knowledge, sir.

Mr. JENNER. I have a recollection that when he was mustered out of the service in September of 1959 he spent two or three days at home in Fort Worth.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And there was an occasion when you and he and some friends of yours went on a hunting trip.

Mr. OSWALD. My brother-in-law.

Mr. JENNER. Or you went squirrel shooting or rabbit shooting.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Just the two of you, or did anybody accompany you?

Mr. OSWALD. Three of us.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have a rifle?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. JENNER. Those I take it were .22's.

Mr. OSWALD. All three were .22 caliber, that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Where did you obtain them?

Mr. OSWALD. Two of them belonged to me and one of them belonged to my brother-in-law.

Mr. JENNER. Your brother-in-law?

Mr. OSWALD. My brother-in-law.

Mr. JENNER. What is his name?

Mr. OSWALD. S. R. Mercer, Jr.

Mr. JENNER. What was the occasion of this trip? How did it come about? Did you suggest it, your brother-in-law, Lee or how?

Mr. OSWALD. The day that I recall that Lee stayed with us in--between the time he was discharged and the time he was supposed to be leaving for New Orleans was a period of 2 to 3 days. One of those days, I feel sure was a Saturday, either we spent all day out at my in-laws' farm or the afternoon at the farm at which time Lee and I, and my brother-in-law went hunting.

Mr. DULLES. Was this a couple of days before he left for Russia?

Mr. OSWALD. This was a couple of days before he left for New Orleans or about 1 day or 2 days before he left for New Orleans.

Mr. DULLES. And then he shipped out?

Mr. OSWALD. To locate a job.

Mr. JENNER. On that occasion, that incident, did he have occasion to discharge the .22 caliber rifle he was carrying?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he did.

Mr. JENNER. Did you see him do so?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. From what shoulder did he, against which shoulder did he place the butt of the gun?

Mr. OSWALD. The right shoulder.

Mr. JENNER. And with which hand or fingers of which hand did he pull the trigger and discharge the gun?

Mr. OSWALD. The right hand, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did he exhibit any proficiency in the use of that .22 caliber gun on that occasion?

Mr. OSWALD. I would say an average amount.

Mr. JENNER. Hunting rabbits or squirrels with a rifle takes pretty good marksmanship. Did any of you boys bring down a rabbit or squirrel, on the fly, I mean?

Mr. OSWALD. As I recall, one small, very small cottontail as he ran across the peanut field, all three of us were shooting at him, and my weapon that I had, one of the weapons that belonged to me, was a semiautomatic 22 and I perhaps had a burst of four or five rounds that I said I got him. But all three of us were shooting at him.

Mr. McKENZIE. Did all three of you claim him?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did.

Mr. JENNER. Was that your only victory on that hunting trip or did someone else shoot down a squirrel or a rabbit?

Mr. OSWALD. No squirrels were killed that day and perhaps I believe this was the occasion that we went into what we called a briar patch located off to the left of the farmhouse; at that particular time it was very thick with cottontails, and I believe we exterminated about eight of them at that time between the three of us because it was the type of brush and thorns that didn't grow very high but we were able to see over them, so getting three of us out there it wasn't very hard to kill eight of them.

Mr. JENNER. Now, had you and your brother engaged in this very light form of hunting at any other time during your lifetime?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Would you indicate the frequency of that?

Mr. OSWALD. If I recall, only one other occasion that we had been hunting together. This was during a leave that Lee had from the Marine Corps.

Mr. JENNER. During a leave that he had?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. And at which time, if I may correct myself there, another time comes to mind, I recall two times that we had this type of light hunting out there at that farm, at the same place. One time was during a leave that he had from the Marine Corps. I don't recall of any game at that particular time that we shot. I know we did handle the rifle and fired maybe target practice, something along that line. I don't recall of anything.

The second time that I now remember is during his stay after he returned from Russia, during his stay at my home in Fort Worth, that my wife and I and our children took him and his wife and child out to the farm to meet our in-laws, my in-laws, and also to do a little hunting while we was out there, and which we did just a very little bit. I believe this was on a Sunday afternoon and we didn't stay out very long.

Mr. JENNER. What weapons did you use on that occasion?

Mr. OSWALD. On that occasion, I believe the same weapons we used before.

Mr. JENNER. Would that be true of all three occasions?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe on the first occasion, which was the occasion that Lee came home on leave, that at that time I only owned one .22 rifle.

Mr. JENNER. Was that the semiautomatic?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not the semiautomatic, it was a bolt action rifle, with a clip on it. However, I believe Lee either used my brother-in-law's rifle----

Mr. JENNER. Was that a bolt-action rifle?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it is a bolt-action rifle. He either used that rifle or a single-shot, bolt-action rifle, another .22 that was out at the farm.

Mr. JENNER. On the occasion during which you went hunting during that 3-day period, interregnum his return and his discharge and his departure for New Orleans, was the weapon he employed a bolt-action weapon?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it was.

Mr. JENNER. Is it a fair statement on my part that on all the occasions that you recall hunting with Lee he employed a bolt-action rifle?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. During your youth and prior to these occasions about which you testified, do you know of the fact or know by rumor or otherwise that your brother engaged in this light hunting or other kind of hunting where he used a firearm even though he was not with you or you did not accompany him?

Mr. OSWALD. I feel surely that he did, without recalling any particular time that he told me, but his interest along that line was generally like mine, that is hunting and fishing, and I am sure when he had an opportunity to hunt that he did do so.

Mr. DULLES. Did he ever tell you about hunting in Russia?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he did.

Mr. JENNER. Would you relate that, please, tell us when the conversation took place and the circumstances, if it was a conversation?

Mr. OSWALD. The circumstances was it was in a letter I received from him.

Mr. JENNER. Is that one of the letters you produced?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it is.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have any conversation with him in addition to the letter, apart from the letter?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe I did along that line because as I stated our interests in hunting and fishing was mutual and he did state that he was able to----

Mr. JENNER. In response to Mr. Dulles' question, would you give the conversation? We will take care of the letter in the morning.

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I am trying to give the conversation.

Mr. JENNER. Thank you. Proceed.

Mr. OSWALD. That we talked about hunting over there, and he said that he had only been hunting a half dozen times, and so forth, and that he had only used a shotgun, and a couple of times he did shoot a duck.

Mr. JENNER. It was all shotgun shooting, no rifle shooting?

Mr. OSWALD. No rifle shooting, no sir. That is all they were allowed to have, the shotgun.

Mr. JENNER. This conversation took place, as I understand it, on his return from Russia when he was living with you for that month, that would be June-July of 1962?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And that is the extent of the conversation?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is.

Mr. JENNER. As you now recall it--there have been some reports, and they are only reports as far as we of the staff are concerned, of speculation about a television set, whether your brother purchased or owned a television set and whether he purchased it outright or on time with a guarantee from you.

What information or knowledge do you have in that connection?

Mr. OSWALD. I am not aware that he purchased a television set, sir. I did at his request, when he and Marina and the baby were living in Fort Worth.

Mr. JENNER. Where in Fort Worth?

Mr. OSWALD. Mercedes Street in Fort Worth, in a small duplex which was----

Mr. JENNER. Can you fix even more definitely the time of this event?

Mr. OSWALD. This was approximately the latter part of September, 1962. And at his request----

Mr. JENNER. He came to you, excuse me.

Mr. OSWALD. He called me, sir.

Mr. JENNER. He called you by telephone?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he called me at my office from his place of employment in Fort Worth at that time.

Mr. JENNER. Give us the substance of what he said.

Mr. OSWALD. We talked briefly about how each family was doing, and so forth, and he said that he would like to establish credit and he had tried to charge something at Montgomery Ward's at Fort Worth, the West 7th Street store, and they had stated that he needed to have somebody cosign or vouch for him, and this was his request to me, and I said gladly I would do so, and late that afternoon after work, this was approximately 5:30 by the time I arrived at Montgomery Ward, I did sign for Lee's charge account. However, I was not aware of what he was charging.

Mr. JENNER. There was no discussion, I take it, at that time of what--the use to which he intended to put his credit?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I believe perhaps he did mention something about a baby chair and a baby bed.

Mr. JENNER. Was there ever any discussion between you about his purchase or acquisition of a television set?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; there was not.

Mr. JENNER. Were you ever in his home or apartment?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I was.

Mr. JENNER. Did you see a television set there?

Mr. OSWALD. Pardon me, you are referring to the apartment on Mercedes Street, is that correct?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, I was in his home quite a few times and there was not a television set that I remember.

Mr. JENNER. On any occasion that you were there?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. On any occasion when you were in any place of residence of your brother after his return to the United States, did you see in those premises a television set?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Where was that?

Mr. OSWALD. At my house and at my mother's house.

Mr. JENNER. I should have been more specific and identified a residence as one of his own rather than living with you or living with your mother.

Mr. OSWALD. At no residence that he lived in that I was aware of at any time did I see him with a television set that I would take to be his own.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have any discussions--did any discussion ever occur between the two of you with respect to his acquisition of a television set?

Mr. OSWALD. None that I recall, sir.

Mr. JENNER. This is, as far as you are concerned, a total blank, this television set matter?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. DULLES. I think we had better adjourn pretty soon. This man has had quite an ordeal for the day.

Mr. JENNER. It is acceptable.

Mr. DULLES. Is it acceptable to you?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Mr. OSWALD. I have no objection to continuing.

Mr. McKENZIE. If you would prefer to reconvene tomorrow morning we can reconvene then.

Mr. RANKIN. I think 9 o'clock is better. I think we can finish up in the morning.

Mr. DULLES. Thank you. At 9 o'clock in the morning.

(Whereupon, at 5:15 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)

_Friday, February 21, 1964_

TESTIMONY OF ROBERT EDWARD LEE OSWALD RESUMED

The President's Commission met at 9 a.m. on February 21, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.

Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; and Allen W. Dulles, member.

Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel; Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel; and William McKenzie, attorney for Robert Edward Lee Oswald.

The CHAIRMAN. Gentlemen, the Commission will be in order.

As yesterday, I will only be able to be here for a comparatively short time, because we have our weekly conference of the Supreme Court today. And when I leave, Mr. Allen Dulles will conduct the hearing. We will now proceed with the testimony.

Mr. JENNER. Thank you, Mr. Chief Justice.

I would like to return, Mr. Oswald, to the time that your brother Lee was discharged from military service and spent approximately 3 days at home. You recall that period?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. JENNER. Now, would you please describe his physical appearance the last time you saw him during that 3-day period?

Mr. OSWALD. His hair was brown and curly, a full set of hair. His physical appearance--he was trim, weighed approximately 140 pounds, he was approximately 5 foot 9-1/2, he seemed to be in fine physical shape at that time.

Mr. JENNER. I mentioned 3 days. Was I wrong about the 3 days, or was it a little longer period?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; my recollection on that period was 2 or 3 days, and only during one of these day do I remember seeing him. He spent the day at our house.

Mr. JENNER. It was your impression, sir, that he was in good health, bright and alert mentally at that time?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he most certainly was.

Mr. JENNER. Did you describe his physical appearance as far as his head of hair was concerned?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. A full head of hair?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did he appear strained in any respect?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not.

Mr. JENNER. His mental condition, as far as you can tell, is what you would regard or had regarded as normal during your acquaintance with him as his brother?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Now, will you then jump to the first time you saw him subsequently thereto, which I understand was in June 1962. State the date, please, as closely as you can.

Mr. OSWALD. This was June 14, 1962.

Mr. JENNER. And where did you see him?

Mr. OSWALD. At Dallas, Love Field.

Mr. JENNER. Now, on that occasion--and take in also the period of time that he lived with you in your home during June and part of July 1962--what did you observe, and if in contrast by way of contrast, in his physical appearance and demeanor as against the last time you had seen him, in 1959.

Mr. OSWALD. His appearance had changed to the extent that he had lost a considerable amount of hair; his hair had become very kinky in comparison with his naturally curly hair prior to his departure to Russia.

Mr. JENNER. Had his hair been in any respect kinky, as you put it, in November of 1959 immediately prior to his leaving for Russia?

Mr. OSWALD. That would have been in September.

Mr. JENNER. September--I am sorry.

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not. It was curly.

Mr. JENNER. Did that arrest your attention, the difference in the texture of his head of hair?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it certainly did.

Mr. JENNER. You, though 5 years old at the time of your father's death--do you recall his physical appearance insofar as his head of hair?

Mr. OSWALD. My father's head of hair?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. OSWALD. He had a full set of hair.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have any baldness or tendency towards baldness in your family?

Mr. OSWALD. None that I am aware of.

Mr. JENNER. Now, I include both your mother and father and relatives on either side, to the extent that you have met those people.

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; no one that I recall that I met, relatives on either my father's or mother's side, had any tendency towards baldness.

Mr. JENNER. And you have none?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. JENNER. And your brother John?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. He still has a full head of hair?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Even now?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. What else did you observe by way of his facial appearance--whether he was drawn, or bouncy and healthy, as he had been when you had seen him in September of 1959?

Mr. OSWALD. He appeared the first couple of days upon his return, June 14, 1962, to be rather tense and anxious. I also noted that his complexion had changed somewhat to the extent that he had always been very fair complected--his complexion was rather ruddy at this time--you might say it appeared like an artificial suntan that you get out of a bottle, but very slight--in other words, a tint of brown to a tint of yellow.

Mr. JENNER. What else did you notice by contrast, so far as his physical appearance is concerned? And then, next, I want to go to his demeanor.

Mr. OSWALD. I believe his weight perhaps was a little bit less at that time. I would say probably 5 pounds--approximately 5 pounds less than what he was in 1959, before he went to Russia.

Mr. JENNER. Did you say he appeared drawn as compared with his appearance in 1959--facially?

Mr. OSWALD. I would say to some extent; yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Now, would you please relate to the Commission any other differences, if there were any, in demeanor?

Mr. OSWALD. To me, he acted the same as he did in 1959 prior to going to Russia. Our conversations at the time he returned from Russia in June of 1962--he appeared to be the same boy I had known before, with the exception of what I noted on his physical appearance.

As far as his conversations were concerned at this particular time, June of 1962, I noticed no difference.

He appeared to have picked up something of an accent. But I took this to mean that because he had been speaking the Russian language and living in Russia during a period of approximately two and a half years, that this was the reason for the accent.

Mr. JENNER. Did these differences in physical appearance, especially his hair, his skin tone, his overall facial and physical appearance, lead you at that moment, in the light of what had occurred in the meantime, your exchange of correspondence, lead you to form an opinion, at least tentative, as to what might have occurred or happened to your brother while he was in Russia?

Mr. OSWALD. In reference to that, sir; his hair--I did, either on the first or second night, when he was there at the house--I pointed it out to him and actually had him bend his head down to where I could look at the top of it, and it was very thin on the top--you could see just right down to his scalp.

And his comment on that was that he thought the weather had affected his hair, the cold weather.

Mr. JENNER. Did he make any comments when you met him at Love Field, and did you ride in with him from Love Field to your home?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. We were in my personal car, and my wife and my children were with me. We met him and his wife and his baby. He seemed, perhaps the word is disappointed, when there were no newspaper reporters around. He did comment on this.

Mr. JENNER. Tell us what he said.

Mr. OSWALD. I believe his comment was something, "What, no photographers or anything?"

I said, "No, I have been able to keep it quiet."

Mr. JENNER. And where was that remark made?

Mr. OSWALD. At Love Field, as they came through the gate.

Mr. JENNER. Did he make any remarks on that subject as you drove into town?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not.

Mr. JENNER. Did he make any other comments that arrested your attention when he arrived at Love Field or while you were driving into town?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he did. In reference to newspaper reporters again, or photographers, he asked me if I had been receiving calls and so forth, and I told him I had received two or three calls, but I said nothing, and they were not aware of his schedule of arrival in the United States, and they were not aware at that time, to my knowledge, that he had arrived at Love Field, and that he was going to be at my home.

Mr. JENNER. Having in mind the changes in physical appearance, and also the course of events since the day of his arrival at Love Field to the present time, have you formed an opinion, Mr. Oswald, as to whether your brother may have undergone some treatment of some kind in Russia that affected his mind?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. Since Lee's death on November 24th, I have formed an opinion in that respect.

Mr. JENNER. What is that opinion?

Mr. OSWALD. That, perhaps in sheer speculation on my part--that due to the nature of the change in his hair, in the baldness that appeared, I reached the opinion that perhaps something in the nature of shock treatments or something along that line had been given him in Russia.

Mr. JENNER. You base this opinion on any factors other than or in addition to this change of physical appearance that you noted on his return from Russia?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. JENNER. Has the course of events affected the opinion you have now expressed?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; since the course of events, since Friday, November 22, 1963, his death following on the 24th of November 1963, I have searched my own mind for possible reasons of why or how this all came about. That has been one of my opinions--in reference to his hair structure and so forth, and his baldness--pardon me just a minute, please.

Mr. JENNER. Have you concluded your answer?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, thank you.

Mr. JENNER. Has this course of events and your brother's physical appearance and any other factors you had in mind led you to form an opinion as to whether he was or had been an agent of the government of the USSR?

Mr. McKENZIE. You are asking him, Mr. Jenner, to speculate.

Mr. JENNER. I am.

Mr. OSWALD. May I have that again, please?

Mr. McKENZIE. His question was--this is off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, may I ask a question at this time?

Robert, at any time after your brother returned from Russia, or at any time after he went to Russia, did he ever remark to you as to whether or not he had been ill while in Russia?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not.

Mr. McKENZIE. Has his wife, Marina Oswald, ever said anything to you about whether or not he was ill while he resided in Russia?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; she has.

Mr. McKENZIE. And what did she say?

Mr. JENNER. Could you fix the time, please?

Mr. OSWALD. My conversation with Marina Oswald?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. OSWALD. Approximately 4 weeks ago, in one of our conversations.

Mr. JENNER. And where did that take place?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe in my car on the way to the cemetery, or returning from the cemetery, to Mr. Martin's house, in Dallas, Tex.

Mr. JENNER. Anyone other than Marina and yourself present?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right. State the conversation.

Mr. OSWALD. If I may fix the date more accurately here, sir; if I could possibly refer to my diary.

I recall this conversation on January 13, 1964, between Marina Oswald and myself in my car, at which time she stated to me----

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, sir, to what are you now referring to refresh your recollection?

Mr. OSWALD. This would be to a followup of the conversation we had in reference to----

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me--the document.

Mr. OSWALD. I am referring to my notebook that I have been keeping in various events that have occurred since November 22, 1963.

Mr. JENNER. For the purpose of the record, would you read the first three words and the last three words of the page to which you are making reference?

Mr. OSWALD. "Sunday, January 13, 1964. Jim advised that"----

Mr. JENNER. That is on the first line?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. The last line is "told her this story."

Mr. JENNER. All right. Proceed, sir.

Mr. OSWALD. We had a discussion----

Mr. McKENZIE. Pardon me just a second.

For the sake of the record, let me state this. A copy of this diary has been furnished to the Commission, photostated by the Commission, and Mr. Jenner has it in front of him.

Mr. JENNER. I will qualify it, Mr. Chief Justice. But I didn't want to take Your Honor's time at the moment, because I do want to cover another subject while you are still here.

Proceed, sir.

Mr. OSWALD. What prompted my question as to whether or not Lee was ill while he was in Russia was the followup of a conversation that we had in relation to an incident that occurred some time in the year of 1963. I am not able to place the date of that purported incident. I was advised at that time in reference to this incident that on one day, that Lee was going to shoot at or shoot Mr. Richard M. Nixon, that Marina N. Oswald locked Lee Harvey Oswald in the bathroom for the entire day.

At the end of this brief remark in relation to Mr. Nixon, I asked her at that time had Lee been ill or been in the hospital while he was in Russia. And, at this time, she told me yes, that he had, on two occasions, been in the hospital in Russia.

I asked her what was the nature of the illness. My best recollection of that, sir, was that he was having difficulty with his sinus, and that the cold was bothering him somewhat. And I do not recall anything more specific than that in relation to the illness.

Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one question there?

Did Marina say whether this was while they were in Minsk, or she didn't indicate where he was at the time?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, she did not.

Mr. DULLES. She did not?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she did not.

Mr. JENNER. Have you now stated and exhausted your recollection of everything she said on that subject of his illness on that particular occasion?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have.

Mr. JENNER. And you did not pursue the matter any further than you have indicated with her?

Mr. OSWALD. Sir, I believe I attempted to, and with her limited knowledge of the English language, we were encountering some difficulties. And I told her perhaps at a later date, or something of that nature, that we could discuss it more fully.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever pursue it with her on any subsequent occasion?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not.

Mr. JENNER. If I may, Mr. Chief Justice, I will return to that illness feature at a later point.

You have an entry in your diary under the date of January 13, 1964----

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, in reference to Mr. Nixon?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Now, you have alluded to Mr. Nixon in testifying with respect to your conversation on the subject of illness with Marina.

Mr. Chief Justice, if I may, I will read the entry on that particular date, and will wish to question the witness about it.

"Sunday, January 13, 1964. Jim advised that Marina told him that Lee wanted to"--and there are a series of five dashes, followed by the letters, "NMR, also, but Marina locked Lee in the bathroom all day. This was confirmed later this day by Marina. On the way to the cemetery."

Is that in your handwriting?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it is.

Mr. JENNER. Would you please supply, if suppliable, what is indicated by the three dashes preceding the letters "NMR" and identify what the letters "NMR" refer to?

Mr. OSWALD. If I may, sir, correct you there. There are five dashes there. And the word "shoot" was my intention to leave blank there. And the initials "NMR" stands for Richard M. Nixon in reverse.

Mr. JENNER. I take it, then, that the five dashes were inserted there as a substitute for the word "shoot"?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And the initials are those of Richard M. Nixon reversed?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Now, would you please state fully when this matter or this incident first came to your attention where and through and by whom?

Mr. OSWALD. The first time I was aware of this incident was at Mr. Jim H. Martin's home in Dallas, Tex.

Mr. JENNER. On what day?

Mr. OSWALD. On Sunday, January 13, 1964.

Mr. JENNER. What was the occasion for your being there?

Mr. OSWALD. To visit with Marina, and to take her to the cemetery.

Mr. JENNER. You entered the home?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Was your wife, Mrs. Oswald, with you?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; she was.

Mr. JENNER. Your children?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; they were.

Mr. JENNER. You entered the home, and who was there?

Mr. OSWALD. Mr. and Mrs. James H. Martin, I believe their children were also present, and in the living room of their home there was two Secret Service agents, or one Secret Service agent, and two Dallas police officers.

Mr. JENNER. Are you able to identify any of those four men?

Do you recall any of them at the moment?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, that one of the Secret Service agents, if he was either the only one there, or two of them were there, the one that I do recall, Mr. Bob Jameson or Jimson, of the Dallas office--the U.S. Secret Service office in Dallas.

Mr. JENNER. Now, to what Richard M. Nixon did the initials "NMR" as you have placed them in this note refer?

Mr. OSWALD. To the past Vice President of the United States.

Mr. JENNER. Now, proceed to tell us about how the circumstance arose, your first conversation of it, your first notice of it.

Mr. OSWALD. I was talking with Mr. Jim Martin about various other matters.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, sir. Where were you in talking to Mr. Jim Martin?

Mr. OSWALD. I was in the den of his home, sitting on a sofa.

Mr. JENNER. And who was present?

Mr. OSWALD. Jim Martin and I were sitting on the sofa, and I believe my wife and his wife were at the end of the den in the kitchen part of it, standing by the sink.

Mr. JENNER. What is the distance between yourselves sitting on the sofa and the others?

Mr. OSWALD. I would say approximately 12 or 15 feet, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And was there a doorway, was it open?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it is an open room.

Mr. JENNER. So you were all in the same room--one section of it you describe as a den?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And the other section consists of what?

Mr. OSWALD. The kitchen, the sink, refrigerator, a washing machine, built-in oven and range.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Proceed.

Mr. OSWALD. We discussed other matters. I do not recall what they were. Just talking to him about how Marina was doing and so forth, and any other thing that we might be talking about in general, small talk. And we finally--he finally brought up this question.

Mr. JENNER. What did he say and how did he approach it? Reproduce it as best you can, sir.

Mr. OSWALD. I believe he moved very close to me. I was turned towards him. He was to my left. I might say at this time that the women at the sink would be on my far right, behind me generally. And he related to me----

Mr. JENNER. What did he say?

Mr. OSWALD. This incident, that Marina had told him that on a day still not identified to me, that he, Lee Harvey Oswald, had the intention to shoot Mr. Richard M. Nixon, and that Marina N. Oswald had locked Lee in the bathroom for the entire day. And that was the text to my best remembrance--that was everything that was said from him.

Mr. JENNER. Have you now exhausted your recollection?

Mr. OSWALD. Of Mr. Martin's conversation to me?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have.

Mr. JENNER. Did he say how he had come about this information?

Mr. OSWALD. No, other than he had a conversation with Marina N. Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. And he was relating to you a conversation he had had with her?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did he say that she had reported this to him?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he did.

Mr. JENNER. Did you inquire of him as to why this had not been disclosed to you before?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ask any questions of him in that connection?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

I might add that my reaction at that time was that I was rather speechless. I believe I just shook my head in utter disbelief to what I was hearing.

Mr. JENNER. Did Mr. Martin relate to you when Marina had told him this story?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not to my recollection.

Mr. JENNER. Did you question him with respect to that?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. Did you make any effort to fix the time when the event in question had taken place?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; in my own mind I did.

Mr. JENNER. You didn't question Mr. Martin about it, however?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. DULLES. At this time, did you know of the rumors with regard to the attack on General Walker or not?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did. And I refer, again, to the entry on January 13, 1964, and the statement that Jim advised that Marina told him that Lee wanted to "blank NMR, also." And by that "also" I was aware of the attempt on General Walker's life.

Mr. JENNER. Was anything said during the course of your conversation with Mr. Martin in the den with respect to the information you had that an attempt had been made by your brother on the life of General Walker?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, not at this conversation, it was not.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever talk to Mr. Martin at any time subsequent to this, with respect to this event?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir--preceding this day of January 13, 1964, approximately 3 or 4 weeks prior to that----

Mr. JENNER. This particular event, I mean--Mr. Martin's relating to you that Marina had advised him that your brother wanted to shoot Richard M. Nixon, the Vice President of the United States. Did you have a further conversation with Mr. Martin at any time subsequent to that--that is, after January 13, 1964?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. You have not up to this moment?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not.

Mr. JENNER. You did not at any time later that day? You had only this one conversation with Mr. Martin, and none other?

Mr. OSWALD. On this subject, yes, sir, that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. On this particular subject, you made no effort to question him further about it?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And you have now exhausted your recollection as to all of your conversation on this occasion with Mr. Martin?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have.

Mr. JENNER. And you at no time ever pursued it further with him?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. Did you report or relate this to the Secret Service or the FBI or any other agency of the U.S. Government?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. McKENZIE. Pardon me just a minute, Mr. Jenner. May I ask a question?

You have, have you not, furnished the FBI a copy of this diary that you have kept since November 22d?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. McKENZIE. And likewise you furnished it to this Commission?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. When was your diary furnished to the Commission for the first time?

Mr. McKENZIE. Yesterday morning.

Mr. OSWALD. February 20, 1964.

Mr. JENNER. Yesterday morning when you and your counsel tendered it to me?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. But between the 13th of January 1964 and yesterday morning, when you tendered the diary to me, you made no tender of any written materials nor did you relate orally to any agent or agency of the U.S. Government this particular incident?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I had.

Mr. JENNER. You had?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Please state to whom and when?

Mr. OSWALD. This was two FBI agents on the night of--may I have a calendar, please?

On February 18, 1964, I turned over my notebook to two FBI agents at my home in Denton, Tex., at which time they asked me about this particular incident. I referred them to my diary, and turned over the diary, with the advice of my counsel.

Mr. JENNER. Was that incident related by you to them at your instance, or did they come to you with specific reference to it?

Mr. OSWALD. They did have a specific reference to it on the night of February 18, 1964.

Mr. JENNER. Who raised it--you or the agents?

Mr. OSWALD. The agents did, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did they state to you as to how they had come to have that information?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; they did not.

Mr. McKENZIE. For the sake of the record, Mr. Jenner, I would like to state what I told the agents.

Mr. JENNER. Now, returning to--when did you tell them, Mr. McKenzie?

Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, the best I recall it was either Monday--it was Monday, February 17th.

Mr. JENNER. Monday of this week?

Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, this past Monday.

And I might add that I received the diary myself sometime around 5:15 or 5 o'clock on Saturday, February 15th, and I read the diary Sunday evening, February 16th, and gave the information to the FBI agents on February 17th, at which time I suggested that if they would like to talk to Robert about it they could be free to do so.

Mr. OSWALD. May I say something here, Bill?

Mr. McKenzie did not know the exact meaning of this statement on January 13, 1964. He asked me in his office on Monday afternoon, February 17, 1964, to fill in the blanks, and to give the man's name to the initials and what it meant, at which time I did.

Mr. JENNER. But from the 13th of January 1964 to Saturday February 15, 1964, you had not drawn this matter to the attention of any agency of the United States or any agent of the United States, or any other person, is that correct?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; that is not correct. I did not speak to any agent of the U.S. Government.

My wife read my diary, and she asked me what that entry was.

Mr. JENNER. When did you prepare this diary?

Mr. OSWALD. I prepared it on the dates noted in the diary. In this particular instance, Sunday, January 13, 1964.

Mr. JENNER. That particular entry, I take it, then, from your testimony, was made contemporaneously with the event itself--that is, on January 13, 1964?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. This news from Mr. Martin startled and upset you, did it not?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it did.

Mr. JENNER. You mentioned that you had gone to the Martin home, one of the purposes being to take Marina to the cemetery.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you do so?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. JENNER. As soon as you were in her presence in the automobile, or while you were driving there, did you raise this subject with her?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. You made no mention of what Mr. Martin had said to you?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever speak to Marina about it?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; she raised the question to me, or told me of the incident.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

Was it on your way to the cemetery, while you were there, or returning from the cemetery?

Mr. OSWALD. On the way to the cemetery, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Please try to reconstruct the circumstances, and state as clearly as you can how she raised the subject with you, and what she said--first stating, however, who was in the automobile as you were driving to the cemetery.

Mr. OSWALD. It was Marina N. Oswald and myself, only.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Now, try to--give us the scene just as it occurred--how she brought it out.

Mr. OSWALD. We had been talking about the children, her children and my children, family affairs, and so forth, attempting to carry on a reasonable facsimile of a complete conversation within her limited knowledge of English. And at a pause in this conversation, she started relating to me this incident.

Mr. JENNER. Please, Mr. Oswald--when you say she started relating this incident, it doesn't help us any, it is not evidentiary. How did she do it? What did she say, as best you are able to recall? How did she bring it up?

Mr. McKENZIE. In her own words, Robert, try to reconstruct exactly what was said to you from the time you left Jim Martin's house until you went--in Dallas, Tex., until you arrived in Fort Worth, Tex., at the cemetery.

Mr. OSWALD. On this subject, to the best of my knowledge, Marina said to me, "Robert, Lee also wanted to shoot Mr. Nixon." And, at that time, I believe I gave her the statement that "Yes, Jim told me about this when we were sitting in the den that afternoon."

Mr. JENNER. You say you gave her the statement--you mean that is what you said to her?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

And she made her statement, referring to this incident of Mr. Nixon.

And then she related----

Mr. JENNER. What did she say?

Mr. OSWALD. I might say this, sir. In practically the same words that Mr. Martin had told me, because he had reportedly received the conversation from Marina, within her limited English--it rang a bell to the extent that the words were close to being the same to the way Mr. Martin had related it to me.

It was a very brief statement on her behalf that Lee was going to shoot Mr. Richard M. Nixon, and that she, Marina N. Oswald, locked Lee in the bathroom all day.

I did ask her was he very angry. Her reply was at first he certainly was, or was, but later----

Mr. JENNER. When you say at first, you mean her first response to your question was, "He certainly was."

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; or that he was. I don't believe she knows the word "certainly." That he was angry, and that he calmed down during the period that he was locked in the bathroom.

And I asked her at the end of that statement, "Did he beat you or hurt you?"

She said, "No, he did not spank me."

That is, to the best of my recollection, the entire conversation on the incident of Mr. Richard M. Nixon.

Mr. JENNER. Did you inquire--you have now exhausted your recollection?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you inquire of her as to when this incident took place?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. Did she volunteer it?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she did not.

Mr. JENNER. Did you inquire of Mr. Martin as to when the incident took place?

Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall that I did, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you make any inquiry as to where they were residing at the time the incident was alleged to have taken place, or might have taken place?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. Did you assume any particular residence?

Mr. OSWALD. I assumed that this took place in one of two apartments that they lived in in Dallas, Tex. The addresses I am not familiar with. They are the only two houses or apartments that I did see for myself from the outside on the night of Thanksgiving, 1963, whatever the date was, at which time we had dinner at the Martin's home for the first time that Mrs. Martin had met Marina N. Oswald.

And, at the conclusion of the dinner, the Secret Service agents, with us, wanted Marina to point out to them the two apartments that they had lived in in Dallas.

Mr. JENNER. And you accompanied them, did you?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I was in the car.

Mr. JENNER. Did you thereafter pursue this occurrence, or alleged occurrence, and obtain any additional information about it, with anybody--the Secret Service, the FBI, Mr. Thorne, Mr. Martin, Marina--anybody at all?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not.

Mr. JENNER. Did you inquire of Marina as to how she locked him in the bathroom?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. Did it occur to you that it might be quite difficult for a 98-pound woman to lock your brother in a bathroom?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it has occurred to me exactly how this was possible, to the extent that a bathroom usually has a lock on the inside and not on the outside.

Mr. JENNER. Well, if he didn't want to be locked in the bathroom, she would have quite a difficulty--she could not force him into the bathroom.

Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, that is a question for rank speculation.

Mr. JENNER. I appreciate that, sir. I am trying to jog his recollection.

Mr. McKENZIE. May I ask him a question at this time to maybe perhaps assist you?

The CHAIRMAN. You may ask, yes.

Mr. McKENZIE. Robert, has Marina told you at anytime or do you now know where they were residing when this occurrence happened?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she has not. And I am not aware from any source where this event took place.

Mr. McKENZIE. Were you ever in their apartments in Dallas, Tex., at anytime?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I was not.

Mr. McKENZIE. Prior to going to--with the Secret Service and Marina on Thanksgiving evening, was that the first time that you had ever seen the apartments where they lived?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. I think we will take a break now.

I must be going to my conference. So we will recess for just a moment.

(Brief recess.)

Mr. DULLES. The Commission will come to order.

Mr. Jenner, if you will proceed.

Mr. JENNER. Thank you, sir.

Mr. Oswald, we have some data that indicates or confirms the fact that Mr. Nixon was invited to Dallas in April of 1963, by the Southeast Dallas Chamber of Commerce to receive the Good American Award, but that at the last minute it was necessary for him to cancel his attendance--he was unable to attend, and did not come to Dallas on that occasion. There was some publicity in connection with the giving of the award prior to the event. But I take it from your testimony that at least you did not pursue with Marina or with Mr. Martin their fixing the time of the event in which Marina, according to the information given you, locked your brother Lee in the bathroom to prevent him from any violence on Mr. Nixon.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, if I may, with Mr. Dulles' approval, interrupt you one more time for another statement.

I recall when Mr. Nixon was coming to Dallas at the invitation of Mr. Carlson and others to receive this award.

However, Mr. Nixon did come to Dallas some time within 6 weeks prior to November 22, 1963. The exact date I cannot fix, because I don't recall the exact date.

But it is my best recollection that he was there in that period of time.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. McKenzie, that may well be so.

Our information indicates to the contrary--that he was in Dallas on the 21st of November 1963.

Mr. McKENZIE. That is what I say, sir.

Mr. JENNER. You said several weeks prior.

Mr. McKENZIE. I said some time within 6 weeks prior to November 22d.

Mr. JENNER. Well, our information is that he was in Dallas on the 21st of November 1963, and not prior to that time.

But we will----

Mr. DULLES. I think there is a misunderstanding there. You are technically correct. It was the day before.

Mr. McKENZIE. I couldn't remember the exact date, Mr. Dulles, and I wasn't going to be tied down to any exact date.

Mr. DULLES. You are technically correct.

Mr. McKENZIE. November 21 was before November 22.

Mr. JENNER. Well, the inference of the 6 weeks----

Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, the reason I say 6 weeks--as I explained to Mr. Dulles, I don't know exactly when it was, but I know it was prior to November 22d, Dick Nixon was in Dallas.

Mr. JENNER. Well, Mr. Chairman, we will obtain that information and make it part of the record.

Now, Mr. Oswald, in view of what you have related with regard to this particular event, I ask you this question: Would you please state why you did not report this circumstance to any agency or agent of the U.S. Government up to the time that you gave your diary to Mr. McKenzie and he turned it over to the FBI?

Mr. OSWALD. An assumption on my part at the time this was told to me was that some Federal agents were aware of this. Nobody told me that they were aware of it. I repeat, again, it was an assumption on my part that somebody was perhaps aware of this, as they were, before I was--aware of the alleged shot at General Walker of the same year.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

Did you discuss this event with Mrs. Oswald, that is, your wife, Vada?

Mr. OSWALD. Briefly I did, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Now, when did you do that?

Mr. OSWALD. Some time around the latter part of January 1964, at which time----

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. That is several weeks after you made this entry in your diary, and after the event occurred?

Mr. OSWALD. Two or three weeks after I made this entry in my diary January 13, yes, sir, that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. What were the circumstances that led you to discuss the matter with her?

Mr. OSWALD. My wife had read my diary, and she had come to this entry on January 13, 1964, and she asked me to fill in the blanks and state who it was, at which time I did.

Mr. DULLES. Did I understand you to say earlier that your wife also prepared a diary?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, she did not. She had read my diary, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Until you retained Mr. McKenzie, had you retained counsel?

Mr. OSWALD. I had consulted counsel.

Mr. JENNER. And what counsel?

Mr. OSWALD. Mr. Weldon Knight, of Denton, Tex.

Mr. JENNER. Had you exhibited to Mr. Knight the diary we have been discussing?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he was not aware of the diary we are discussing.

Mr. JENNER. I take it from your testimony you did not discuss this particular event with Mr. Knight.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever exhibit your diary to Mr. Thorne?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever discuss the existence of the diary with Mr. Thorne?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. Prior to the time you delivered the diary to Mr. McKenzie, had you disclosed to anybody other than Mrs. Oswald, your wife Vada, the existence of the diary?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. McKENZIE. To whom?

Mr. OSWALD. Mrs. Marina Oswald, approximately the first week of February 1964, or January 1964--I advised her that I----

Mr. McKENZIE. You say approximately the first week of January or February. You mean approximately the first week of February or the last week of January?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir--thank you--that I was writing down various happenings that had occurred since November 22, 1964.

Mr. JENNER. And you were in the process of preparing a memorandum, really, rather than a diary, of past events?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Did you do any more than just tell her that you were preparing such a statement or memorandum?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. You did not have occasion, then, at that time to discuss further with her the Richard M. Nixon matter?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. Since we have referred to this document, Mr. Chairman, could I pursue it, at least as to how it came into existence?

Mr. DULLES. Do you propose to introduce it in evidence?

Mr. JENNER. Yes, I do.

I propose now to qualify the diary which you so kindly produced yesterday, Mr. McKenzie.

Mr. McKENZIE. Certainly.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Oswald, yesterday morning your counsel, Mr. McKenzie, delivered to me as an agent of the Commission a ringed notebook, which you have before you, do you not?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And is that notebook still intact as it was when you delivered it to me yesterday?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it is.

Mr. JENNER. Does any part of that notebook contain any entries relating to anything involving your brother?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it does.

Mr. JENNER. Would you note the particular pages and put a paper clip on them, please?

Would you read the first paragraph of the first page which has been clipped?

Mr. OSWALD. "Dated December 6, 1963, for the history of the past 2 weeks as seen through my eyes, and heard with my ears, and felt with my body, I write for future reference for myself and for the future members of the family."

Mr. JENNER. Would you read the last sentence of the last page you have clipped?

Mr. OSWALD. "Marina said she was shocked when the FBI told her this story."

Mr. JENNER. May I approach the witness, Mr. Chairman?

Mr. DULLES. Please.

What was "this story"?

Mr. JENNER. May we consider that a question to the witness, please?

Mr. DULLES. Yes.

Mr. OSWALD. If I may read the entire entry dated January 19, 1964.

Mr. JENNER. Is this entry in your handwriting?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Was it made contemporaneously with the event recorded?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it was.

Mr. JENNER. This event took place on Sunday, January 19, 1964?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And you made an entry contemporaneously or shortly thereafter?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. For what purpose?

Mr. OSWALD. For the purpose of writing down a reference for myself and for my family on all events that I could learn about in relation to Lee's life.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, before the paragraph is read, if I may--is there another entry in your handwriting on that page?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; there is.

Mr. JENNER. Is it the only other entry on that page?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it is.

Mr. JENNER. Is it the entry of January--Sunday, January 13, 1964, relative to Mr. Nixon about which you have already testified?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And which you have read in full into the record?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you are going to read for the purpose of the record the balance of that page, are you not?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. OSWALD. "Sunday, January 19, 1964. Marina and the Martins had gone to Kathy Ford's house in Richardson, when we arrived at the Martin's house around 2 p.m. They returned approximately about 4:45 p.m. On the way to the grocery, Jim said the FBI had asked Marina during the week if she knew"----

Mr. JENNER. Is there a blank there?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. I had omitted a word.

Mr. JENNER. What was the word?

Mr. OSWALD. "that Lee".

Mr. JENNER. Was it an inadvertent omission?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, it was.

Mr. JENNER. And the omission was what word?

Mr. OSWALD. "If she knew Lee had"----

Mr. JENNER. You now have a specific recollection you intended to write the word "Lee"?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

"If she knew Lee had tried to commit suicide while in Russia prior to their marriage. She did not, and it was the first I knew about it. Marina later confirmed this, and said that she had asked Lee two or three times what was the cut on his wrist, pointing to the cut on his left wrist. Lee would become very mad and tell her nothing. The FBI read this in Marina's book."

Mr. McKENZIE. "Read this in Marina's book." You misread there. "The FBI read this in Lee's book."

Mr. JENNER. That is correct?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

"Understand he had a date with another girl around 8 p.m. (This is in Moscow.)"

Mr. JENNER. Is that in parentheses?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it is.

Mr. JENNER. The words "this is in Moscow" are in parentheses?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

"And right before she was due to arrive, he cut his wrist. Marina said she was 'shocked' when the FBI told her this story."

Mr. JENNER. I will not question the witness further about that entry--unless you wish to pursue it at the moment.

Mr. DULLES. No, follow your own order.

There is one question I would ask that relates to the past. That is what you testified to just a moment before. This is with regard to locking in the bathroom for a day.

Did Marina indicate that that was for the purpose of keeping Lee away from possibly Nixon, if he was to be there that day, or was it to cool him down? Did you get any impression as to what the purpose was of the locking in the bathroom?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I most certainly did. Her intentions as related to me was to keep him from shooting at Mr. Nixon.

Mr. JENNER. On that particular day, or on some future occasion?

Mr. OSWALD. I would say on the particular day--pardon me. I misunderstood the question.

Mr. McKENZIE. I think he misunderstood the question.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Was it your impression that Mr. Nixon was to be in Dallas on that particular day, and that that is the day that Marina locked him in the bathroom?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Was she locking him in the bathroom to cool him off so he would not attempt it when Mr. Nixon might be in town some later date?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, it was her intention, or my impression of her intentions, that she locked him in the bathroom on that date, to keep him on that date from shooting at Mr. Richard M. Nixon.

Mr. JENNER. So your impression was this was an imminent event?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Or that she thought it was an imminent event?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, that, thank you.

Mr. DULLES. That is all I have now.

Mr. JENNER. I take it from your testimony that this ringed notebook, and in part a diary, is a record first of past events--that you prepared it subsequently to the events recorded therein.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Now, start from the beginning, that is the first page, the first paragraph of which you have read, in order to identify it. I notice a date--December 6, 1963. Do you find it, sir?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Is that the date on which you prepared at least the first page or started this memorandum?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Now, would you please take that memorandum or notebook and identify each page that you wrote at the first sitting--that is, what you first recorded in the book on the first occasion you wrote in it.

Mr. OSWALD. On the eighth page, approximately midway down, in the left-hand margin I have a date of 12-7.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Now, I take it, therefore, that your first entries were made--that you made, covered the pages commencing with the page dated at the top December 6, 1963, and proceeding consecutively to the eighth page, and in the center of that page approximately, at the margin, there appears the figures 12-7.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. You wrote all the intervening material at one sitting?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And the 12-7 refers, I take it, to December 7, 1963?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And that is the day following your having made the first entries?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Which is December 6, 1963.

Are all the pages that intervene in your handwriting?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; they are.

Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, if I may, and for the purpose of the record, to help speed up the proceedings, I will state on behalf of Mr. Oswald that all the pages of the diary which you have there in front of you, and which should be and will be marked an exhibit to the Commission's record, are in Mr. Oswald's handwriting, they were written simultaneously on the date as shown in the diary, and were his recollections of the event as it occurred on that date. Is that correct Robert?

Mr. JENNER. I appreciate your suggestion, Mr. McKenzie, but there are some breaks that I would like to identify.

Mr. McKENZIE. Pardon me, sir.

Mr. JENNER. I have marked the document now as Commission Exhibit 323.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 323 for identification.)

Mr. DULLES. And you wish to ask that it be admitted in evidence?

Mr. JENNER. If I may defer that for a moment.

Are all of the pages of the diary which you have separated and clipped together at my request in your handwriting?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; they are.

Mr. JENNER. Now, proceeding from the eighth page, which contains the date entry December 7, 1963, would you please identify what you wrote on the particular occasion--that is, December 7, 1963?

I take it the balance of that page?

Mr. OSWALD. The balance of that page, the following entire page, and the first part of the next page.

Mr. JENNER. Down to what?

Mr. OSWALD. "for me to come to his office" and a date----

Mr. JENNER. Is the date 12-11-63?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. DULLES. Are these pages numbered?

Mr. JENNER. They are not.

Mr. McKENZIE. I think we should have them numbered at this time, if the Commission would so desire, sir. We can number them--Robert can number them at the bottom of the page consecutively all the way through, and likewise number the exhibit.

Mr. JENNER. I would like to number the photostat that we have rather than to place any markings on the original.

Mr. McKENZIE. That is fine.

Mr. JENNER. Would it help you, Mr. Chairman, if I examined from the seat beside you, so you can see the exhibit?

The occasion next after December 7, 1963, when you made an entry in your notebook, I take it, was on December 11, 1963.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And would you please indicate commencing with that entry in the upper portion of the page how much--what portions of the notebook you wrote on that occasion?

Mr. OSWALD. On the page referred to, from the date of 12-11-63, on the 11th page following that, I have an asterisk in the left-hand column.

Mr. JENNER. Would you read the first line of that page?

Mr. OSWALD. "Complete with Marina."

Mr. JENNER. And the last line?

Mr. OSWALD. "around 11 a.m., the first great shock of the day"----

Mr. JENNER. Just the last line.

Mr. OSWALD. "also they were having a hard time locating".

Mr. JENNER. Now, there is an asterisk in the left-hand margin?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Approximately the center of the page?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. I gather from your testimony that the entry you made then on 11th of December 1963, commenced at the point that you have that date in the margin, and runs to, throughout the pages consecutively--down to the asterisk of the page you have now identified.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. When did you make the entry that is opposite the asterisk, and that follows the asterisk?

Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall the exact date, sir. I do recall stopping at that period and making the balance of the entries at a later date after December 11, 1963, and prior to January 13, 1964.

Mr. DULLES. Were they all made at one time?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. The post asterisk entries?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. From the asterisk until the completion of the diary to the date of January 13, 1964, was made at one time.

Mr. JENNER. And it recorded past events. It was not made contemporaneously with the events recorded?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. So that the first entries in this notebook that are diary entries in the sense that they are made contemporaneously with the event, to immediately record the event, are those appearing on the last page, consisting of two entries, one dated Sunday, January 13, 1964, and one dated Sunday, January 19, 1964?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

I have noted an error in those dates to the extent that there is only 6 days in between those two Sundays. One date is wrong.

Mr. JENNER. You mean either January 13, 1964, is incorrect or Sunday, January 19, 1964, is incorrect?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. It was an error on my part. And if I may refer to a calendar, I will correct the dates.

Mr. JENNER. Is that a '63 calendar you have there?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; this is a '64.

I would correct the first date as appeared in my diary of Sunday, January 13, 1964, to be corrected to January 12, 1964, and the second date of January would be correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. So wherever in your testimony this morning you have referred to the Sunday, January 13 date, that is to be corrected to January 12, 1964?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. For the purpose of further identification of the exhibit, and in the context of Mr. McKenzie's and my agreement to substitute a photostatic copy for the original. I will undertake to number the pages of the exhibit on the photostatic copy.

Mr. McKENZIE. Would you like Robert to do that?

Mr. JENNER. Well, I would like to have him follow, so that the numbers on the photostat correspond with the pages consecutively in the original.

As I number the pages, Mr. Oswald, would you follow me, so that the page numbers I place on the exhibit are correct in that they are in sequence with the original?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. The first page I am marking No. 1. The next page, No. 2. The next, No. 3.

Would you observe each time that the photostat is a photostat of the original?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I am observing it.

Mr. JENNER. Page 4 is next.

Five is next. Six is next. Seven is next. Eight is next. Nine is next. Ten is next. Eleven is next. Twelve is next. Thirteen is next. Fourteen. Fifteen. Sixteen. Seventeen. Eighteen. Nineteen. Twenty. Now, page 20 is the reverse side of the page numbered on its face 19, is it not?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; that is not correct. It is an insertion to the page that has not been numbered yet, page 21.

Mr. JENNER. But isn't it a fact that the entry on the page now numbered 20 is on the reverse side of the page numbered on its face 19?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I am sorry. You are correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. But the point you are making is that the entry on page now numbered 20 relates to page 21?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

We will now mark page 21. Twenty-two.

Mr. DULLES. What are you marking that insert as far as our copy is concerned?

Mr. JENNER. As page 20.

Mr. DULLES. Wouldn't it be better to make it 20-A?

Mr. JENNER. I thought from the record that I had made clear that page number 20 was the reverse side of page numbered on its face 19.

Mr. DULLES. All right. Just so you are clear.

Mr. JENNER. Have we covered page 22?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Twenty-three. Twenty-four. Twenty-five. Twenty-six. Twenty-seven.

As I proceeded in numbering the photostat, you placed, did you not, in your own handwriting--followed me and placed the same page numbers in your own handwriting on the pages in question as you wrote the numbers on them--the same pages--on the photostat?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. DULLES. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. DULLES. Back on the record.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Oswald, do the entries that you have made in the notebook on pages 1 through 27 now identified represent your recollection of the events recorded at the time that you recorded the events?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; they do.

Mr. JENNER. Have you had an opportunity to review those entries since they were made?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not.

Mr. JENNER. Have you reread any portions of any of these entries, other than or in addition to those you read to the Commission this morning?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not.

Mr. DULLES. Mr. Chairman, I now offer in evidence as Commission Exhibit No. 323 the pages of the notebook which have been identified by the witness, and which have been numbered 1 through 27.

Mr. DULLES. Exhibit No. 323 will be accepted.

(The document heretofore marked for identification as Commission Exhibit No. 323 was received in evidence.)

Mr. JENNER. Now, I would like to direct your attention to page 5 of your notebook.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. At that point you were recording the course of events on what day?

Mr. OSWALD. Friday, November 22, 1963.

Mr. JENNER. To orient you and the Commission, the entry to which I refer, that is the paragraph, reads as follows. Follow me, please.

"Mother and I talked briefly and after about 30 minutes we were taken across the hall to where Marina and the two children were. (This was the first I knew of the new baby.) A Mrs. Paine was also present. We talked a little and shortly Mr. Paine--who the police had been talking to, came out of the office and Mrs. Paine introduced us. I did not like the appearance of Mr. Paine, nothing really to put my finger on, but I just had a feeling.

"I still do not know why or how"--what is that next word?

Mr. OSWALD. "but".

Mr. JENNER. "But Mr. and Mrs. Paine are somehow involved in this affair. Shortly thereafter Mother, Marina, and the children and the Paines left to go to the Paines' house in Irving, and I advised them I would stay there and see them tomorrow."

When you recorded "I would stay there" you mean remain in Dallas? What did you mean?

Mr. OSWALD. My full meaning there, sir, was that I would remain at the Dallas police station, and take a hotel room in Dallas, and spend the night.

Mr. JENNER. Now----

Mr. DULLES. May I ask just one question there for clarity? It refers to an office. Is that the office of the Dallas police?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. DULLES. The Dallas police station?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. I take it from this entry you had not heretofore ever met either Mr. or Mrs. Paine?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And would you elaborate upon, please, your statement recorded on December 6, 1963, that you did not like the appearance of Mr. Paine "nothing really to put my finger on, but I just had a feeling. I still do not know why or how, but Mr. and Mrs. Paine are somehow involved in this affair."

Mr. OSWALD. Well, I was introduced to Mr. Paine at the Dallas police office on the night of November 22, 1963. His wife introduced us. His handshake was very weak and what I might term a live fish handshake.

Mr. JENNER. Live or dead?

Mr. OSWALD. And his general appearance, his face, and most particularly his eyes to me had what I would term a distant look to them, and that he wasn't really looking at you when he was.

Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, if you will, please, would you ask the witness whether he meant a live fish or a cold dead fish.

Mr. OSWALD. Sir, I believe I mean a live fish. A cold, dead fish would be stiff.

Mr. McKENZIE. All right.

Mr. JENNER. We are seeking to obtain the basis upon which you made this entry.

Mr. OSWALD. It was Mr. Paine's general appearance and the manner in which he held himself, and by this I mean the way he stood and the way he looked at you, and you had that feeling, as I stated before, that he was not really looking at you.

Mr. DULLES. You say there that Mrs. Paine introduced Mr. Paine to you. When had you previously made the acquaintance of Mrs. Paine--just before this?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. DULLES. On that same day?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And you record that in your memorandum, do you not, on a previous page?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. JENNER. The fact of the introduction?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do so.

Mr. JENNER. I think the Commission would be interested further in explaining your remark "I still do not know why or how, but Mr. and Mrs. Paine are somehow involved in this affair." What did you mean by that? That is on page 6.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I just wanted to verify that this was still under my date, original entry of December 6, 1963.

At the time I wrote the statement, "I still do not know why or how, but Mr. and Mrs. Paine are somehow involved in this affair." I meant by this statement that I had gathered that after our meeting of November 22, 1963, at the Dallas police station, to the date of December 6, 1963, that Mr. Paine and Mrs. Paine were separated, and that I had read approximately at this time--and I am not sure that I had read this particular thing in the newspaper prior to December 6, 1963--but I feel like I did--that in a Dallas paper it referred to an incident at a Grand Prairie Rifle Range where some people had identified Lee as being at this rifle range, and that on one occasion a man, and the description was given in the newspaper, had handed Lee Harvey Oswald a rifle over this fence where he was standing inside the rifle range. As I read this description in the newspaper, I reached the conclusion from that description that it was Mr. Paine.

Mr. JENNER. Any other basis that you now recall upon which you predicated the statement that, "Somehow Mr. and Mrs. Paine are involved in this affair."

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; if the newspaper I read at that particular time is dated after December 6, 1963, the statement that I just read a few minutes ago, "I still do not know why or how, but Mr. and Mrs. Paine are somehow involved in this affair"--I made that statement then based on my meeting Mr. and Mrs. Paine at the Dallas police station on Friday night, November 22, 1963.

Mr. JENNER. Now, would you please describe Mr. Paine as he appeared on that particular occasion--first, his physical appearance, and then follow with how he was dressed. Give his height, weight, color of eyes and hair, as you recall them.

Mr. OSWALD. I recall Mr. Paine to be approximately 6 feet in height. I do not recall the color of his hair. He is of slender build. Perhaps I would establish his weight around 160 or 165 pounds. His facial appearance was quite drawn--and this is a conclusion on my part, because I had not met him before--he appeared to be quite drawn in the face.

His eyes, I would say, would have to me a hollow look.

Mr. JENNER. What color were his eyes?

Mr. OSWALD. I do not know, sir.

Mr. JENNER. You don't presently recall?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. JENNER. You made no note of it at the time?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. What was his complexion--ruddy, pale?

Mr. OSWALD. I would say his complexion would be ruddy complected.

Mr. JENNER. Was he clean shaven?

Mr. OSWALD. To the best of my recollection, he was, sir.

Mr. JENNER. No mustache, no beard?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. What else did you notice about his appearance? How did he part his hair? Do you recall?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall whether he did part it?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not. I believe this to be correct--that I never did get any higher than looking at Mr. Paine's eyes, and I do not believe I looked at his hair or above his eyes at any time.

Mr. JENNER. How long were you with Mr. Paine on that occasion?

Mr. OSWALD. Approximately five minutes.

Mr. JENNER. Had you ever seen Mr. Paine subsequently thereto?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I have.

Mr. JENNER. On how many occasions?

Mr. OSWALD. On one other occasion, sir.

Mr. JENNER. When?

Mr. OSWALD. This would be approximately a Sunday afternoon in the middle of December 1963.

Mr. JENNER. That would be approximately a week after you made this entry?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. In the presence of Mr. Jim H. Martin, and Mr. John Thorne. We traveled from Mr. Martin's home to the Paines' house in Irving to pick up Marina's and Lee's clothes that were still there.

Mr. JENNER. Still at the Paines' home?

Mr. OSWALD. Still at the Paines' home. I saw Mr. and Mrs. Paine again on that day--I mean at that time. That was my second and only time I have ever seen them. Mr. and Mrs. Paine helped gather up the belongings of Marina and the children and Lee's personal belongings that were still there.

Mr. JENNER. To make it clear, Mr. Oswald, did Mr. Paine accompany you with Mr. Martin and Mr. Thorne to the Paine home, or did you meet Mr. Paine when you arrived there?

Mr. OSWALD. We met Mr. Paine and Mrs. Paine on our arrival at their home in Irving, Texas.

Mr. JENNER. How long were you there?

Mr. OSWALD. Approximately 45 minutes to an hour.

Mr. JENNER. How was he clothed on that occasion?

Mr. OSWALD. In a sport shirt and a pair of slacks, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And how was he clothed on the occasion that you record here on page 6?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe also at that time, sir, that he had a sport shirt on and a pair of slacks, and perhaps a sport jacket or jacket of some type.

Mr. JENNER. Was his head covered on either occasion?

Mr. OSWALD. No. sir, it was not.

Mr. JENNER. What did you notice, if anything, as to whether he had straight hair or a full head of hair on him? Was he bald?

You have already said you don't recall the color of his hair, am I correct on that?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

In referring to the second meeting of Mr. Paine and myself, in reference to his hair, I would say his hair was practically a full set of hair, dark and short.

Mr. JENNER. When you say short, you mean cut short, or a crew cut?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, just cut short.

Mr. JENNER. How do you describe your own head of hair, as to its cut? Is it cut short?

Mr. OSWALD. Presently, I would describe wearing mine at a medium length, for myself.

Mr. McKENZIE. How about Mr. Jenner's?

Mr. OSWALD. I would describe his as being in medium length.

Mr. JENNER. I think you are right.

Mr. DULLES. May I ask one question there?

Had you known prior to November 22d that Marina was living with Mrs. Paine?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. DULLES. You had not known that before November 22d?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, I did not.

Mr. JENNER. Did you know at the time you were introduced to Mr. Paine?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. JENNER. And you had become advised in that respect by whom?

Mr. OSWALD. By Mrs. Paine.

Mr. JENNER. Are those the only two occasions you have had any contact with Mr. Paine?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Would you describe her, please?

Mr. OSWALD. A tall woman, approximately 110 pounds--and by tall I mean approximately 5 foot 11, or 6 feet in height.

Mr. JENNER. Weighing only 110 pounds?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, very slender. A slender face, also--not a full face.

Mr. JENNER. When you say also, are you now referring to Mr. Paine?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I was referring to my statement that Mrs. Paine was slender, and also that she was slender in the face.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Thank you.

Mr. OSWALD. Long hair, I believe to be brown in color.

Mr. JENNER. How did she do her hair, was it in braids?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. I believe it was just hanging down long.

Mr. JENNER. When you say long, how long?

Mr. OSWALD. Shoulder height.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Oswald, would you accommodate us--not to do it now, but at noontime, if you have the time, to read through, your diary to the court reporter, because some of the writing I have difficulty interpreting. The Commission would appreciate it if you would interpret your own writing on the exhibit.

Mr. OSWALD. All right, sir. I understand that you want me to read the entire diary, is that correct?

Mr. JENNER. Yes, to the court reporter--as part of the record, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. DULLES. You may proceed.

Mr. JENNER. What kind of a student were you, Mr. Oswald?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe my average in school was--if I may, sir, ask you--are you talking about my over-all average?

Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir, I seek only the over-all.

Mr. OSWALD. I would say a C or C-plus, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Are you acquainted with the scholarship in that respect of your brother John?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I am not. I could, if you wish me to, make an opinion on what I think it would be.

Mr. JENNER. This opinion being based upon your attending school with him, as you testified yesterday?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And discussions with him back and forth between the both of you as to how you were getting along?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Common interest in your progress scholarshipwise?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. What is your present recollection as to his scholarship?

Mr. OSWALD. That would be a C-plus or a B.

Mr. JENNER. A touch higher than yours?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have an opportunity during your lifetime to form a like opinion as to the scholarship of your brother Lee?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have.

Mr. JENNER. And what was his scholarship?

Mr. OSWALD. I would say a C to a C-plus, in the same category that I place myself.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Oswald and Mr. McKenzie, Mr. Chairman, have furnished us with the originals of a series of letters and postcards which Mr. Oswald, the witness, received from his brother Lee Harvey Oswald. We have prepared photostatic copies on a Xerox machine of each of those letters, and each envelope relating to that letter. And in the case of postcards the front and reverse side of postcards.

We were further accommodated, by--yesterday afternoon following the close of the session--by sitting down with Mr. Oswald and in his presence comparing the photostatic copy of each document with the original, the original being in the possession of Mr. Oswald. And I am marking each of those documents with an exhibit number.

Mr. DULLES. Could you give us, Mr. Jenner, the first and last dates, so we have an idea of the period covered?

I have a general idea, of course.

Mr. JENNER. Yes. Two of these items are not in exact sequence, but----

Mr. DULLES. Two have been introduced already, have they not?

Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, I think you are right, Mr. Dulles.

Mr. JENNER. That is correct. A letter of November 8, 1959, introduced in evidence yesterday. I don't recall what the second one was, but at least----

Mr. DULLES. Were they marked at that time as exhibits?

Mr. JENNER. That was marked as an exhibit. And Mr. Liebeler has it.

The November 8 letter, Mr. Chairman, is marked Commission Exhibit No. 294, and it is in evidence.

Mr. DULLES. There was only one letter, or were there two?

Mr. JENNER. There was just one letter. I think, if you please, you have reference to a telegram, which is Exhibit No. 293.

Mr. DULLES. That is it--the telegram.

Mr. JENNER. Being a telegram dated 14 June 1962.

Mr. DULLES. And these other exhibits cover what period?

Mr. JENNER. They commence--the first, Commission Exhibit No. 295, is a letter of eight pages dated November 26, 1959, and concluding with Exhibit No. 322, a letter of two pages dated March 16, 1963.

Mr. DULLES. Were those all from Russia?

Mr. JENNER. They were all from Russia, save the letter dated March 17, 1963, being Exhibit No. 322, a letter of two pages. All the others are from Russia.

Mr. DULLES. Where was that letter from--do you recall?

Mr. JENNER. It is postmarked--the envelope "Lee H. Oswald, P.O. Box 2915, Dallas, Texas."

And the cancellation stamp likewise says Dallas, Texas.

The date is that which I have already recited.

Mr. DULLES. That was after Lee Harvey's return from the Soviet Union?

Mr. JENNER. Yes, he returned in June of 1962.

Mr. DULLES. And that letter is dated what?

Mr. JENNER. March 17, 1963.

Would you follow me, Mr. Oswald? In each instance, when we compared the letters and the envelopes, it is a fact, is it not, Mr. Oswald, that the letter in question was contained in the envelope of which we have a photostatic copy--and was received by you intact? That is, the envelope was sealed, and the letter content was in the envelope, that you personally opened the envelope and removed the letter content? That in each instance, the letter content is in the handwriting of your brother, Lee Harvey Oswald, entirely, with the exception of Commission Exhibit 299, which is a letter of three pages dated May 31, 1961, upon the last page of which there is a paragraph in the handwriting of Marina Oswald, written in the Russian language?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I take that to be Mrs. Marina Oswald's writing at that time.

Mr. JENNER. And there appears on that page following that paragraph written in Russian what purports to be an English interpretation of it?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Furthermore, that in each instance the envelope and the letter content is--are in the same condition now as they were when you received them?

Mr. McKENZIE. Except for opening.

Mr. JENNER. Except for the opening of the envelope which was necessary for you to do in order to remove the content. Is my statement correct?

Mr. OSWALD. With this exception, sir. That a number of the letters were not opened by me personally. By that, I mean my wife opened them when she received the mail at the house.

I have marked the chronological date on the front of them in the last few days.

Mr. JENNER. So that there appears on these exhibits in your handwriting a date on the envelope and in some instances on the letter content?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Which you wrote thereon, and which was not on either the envelope or the letter at the time it was received by you?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Those exhibit numbers--excuse me. There are three postcards--Commission Exhibit No. 310, dated December 11, 1961, which is a Christmas card, Commission Exhibit 319, which is a postcard dated October 10, 1962, and Commission Exhibit 321, a postcard dated April 10, 1962. Each of those was received by you in due course, Mr. Oswald, as you related to me yesterday.

I want you to confirm this. And is in the handwriting of your brother, Lee Harvey Oswald.

And except for notations of dates which appear thereon or may appear thereon in your handwriting, they are in the same condition now as when you received them?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Now, I wish you would--I want to exhibit to you the postcard dated April 10, 1962, which is Commission Exhibit No. 321.

Mr. DULLES. As I understand it, these letters have not yet been formally introduced in evidence.

Mr. JENNER. They have not, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Very well.

I might add, Mr. McKenzie, that, of course, one does not know whether those letters were opened by the authorities in the Soviet Union before being forwarded. I think that ought to be on the record.

Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Commission Exhibit No. 321 I now hand you, Mr. Oswald. There is a date appearing thereon which reads, according to my interpretation 10--and then I cannot quite decipher it.

Would you look at the original, please?

Mr. DULLES. The European system of marking is different from the American system.

Mr. JENNER. That is what I seek to bring out, sir.

Do you now have the original before you?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Would you read the figures to which I point? The first is 10?

Mr. OSWALD. 10/4/62.

Mr. JENNER. Indicating what date?

Mr. OSWALD. April 10, 1962, in accordance with the European system of dating.

Mr. JENNER. Of putting the day first, the month second, and the year last?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. DULLES. Do you recall whether these letters were opened by cutting or opened by unsealing?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe without exception, sir, looking at the originals, that they were opened by unsealing, rather than cutting.

Mr. DULLES. I was asking because it is sometimes possible, by modern methods, to determine whether a letter has been opened and resealed, and if the letter is cut, that can be done.

If the letter has been torn open where the seal is, you cannot do anything with it. You cannot always do this, but there are certain techniques.

Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Chairman, did you have reference to when Robert opened the letters?

Mr. DULLES. Well, what I had reference to is to whether if the letters were cut and not resealed, then there is a certain possibility of ascertaining whether the letter has been previously opened by a censor, and then resealed. I was just getting at that.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Dulles is interested, I see, in whether the letters had been censored in Russia before they arrived in the United States.

Mr. DULLES. That was my point.

Mr. JENNER. May I inquire of the witness on that subject further?

Mr. McKENZIE. Let me state this for the record. When Robert Oswald or his wife opened the letters, as you can plainly see from the letters here in front of you, they were either opened by letter opener--a knife or a letter opener, or just torn open.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, it is entirely possible and might even be probable that the Commission would be interested in examining the originals on this subject--that is, to determine through experts as to whether the envelopes had been opened and censored, and the contents censored, before being resealed, if they had been so opened, and dispatched to the United States. And I take it that your inquiry was directed towards that.

Mr. DULLES. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. May I inquire of Mr. McKenzie, in the light of that fact, as to whether these originals of these letters would be available to us so that we may have expert examination of them for that purpose?

Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir; I will make them available at any time that the Commission so desires.

And I would like further to say, Mr. Chairman, that it is my opinion, based on a reading of these letters--and I feel that Robert Oswald concurs in my opinion here--that many of the letters were censored, because the letters actually have reference to the censor in many instances. And I speak of that--the censor in the Soviet Union.

Mr. DULLES. Yes. I have not yet read the letters.

Mr. JENNER. The photostats that we have of the letters will reveal that to which Mr. McKenzie is now referring. We took the face of each envelope and in most instances of the reverse side of the envelope. And in each instance the front and reverse side of each postcard.

Mr. DULLES. And in each case I believe we will have in our records, will we not, the date when it was mailed and the date of receipt?

Mr. JENNER. To the extent that is revealed by the face and reverse side of the envelope; yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Because if you have a case where a letter takes four or five days, longer than another letter, that may mean nothing, or it may mean quite a good deal.

Mr. McKENZIE. In some instances, Mr. Chairman, it took five days to receive a letter from the Soviet Union to Fort Worth, Texas.

Mr. DULLES. That is par for the course, I guess.

Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.

But I might also add sometimes it takes five days for a letter to get from downtown Dallas to the suburbs in Dallas, Texas.

Mr. JENNER. Now, Mr.----

Mr. OSWALD. Pardon me, sir, if I may, I would like to say something to my attorney.

Mr. JENNER. Surely.

Mr. DULLES. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. DULLES. Back on the record.

Proceed, Mr. Jenner.

Mr. JENNER. Would you turn to the letter of September 10, 1961, please? That is Commission Exhibit 305.

Mr. OSWALD. All right, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have it?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. In addition--did anything accompany that letter in the way of photographs?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, there was.

Mr. JENNER. Is a reference made to those photographs in the letter?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; there is.

Mr. JENNER. And do you still have the photographs?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. JENNER. And you have them there before you?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. JENNER. And how many are there, and what do they depict?

Mr. OSWALD. There is a total of three photographs depicting purportedly pictures in Minsk, Russia.

Mr. JENNER. Is there any handwriting on the reverse side of any of these exhibits?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; on two of the three photographs there is.

Mr. JENNER. I will mark this Exhibit as Commission Exhibit 304, the next as 304-A and the next as 304-B.

(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibits 304 and 304-A and 304-B for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. The witness now has before him a photograph marked Commission Exhibit 304, on the reverse side of which appears some handwriting.

Do you recognize that handwriting?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. JENNER. Whose is it?

Mr. OSWALD. I recognize it to be Lee Harvey Oswald's.

Mr. JENNER. Would you read it?

Mr. OSWALD. "Trade Union Hall on the Main Street."

Mr. JENNER. And on the opposite side on which this handwriting appears is a picture of a public building?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. I turn your attention to the document marked Commission Exhibit No. 304-A. On the reverse side of that does there appear some handwriting?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Whose handwriting is it?

Mr. OSWALD. I recognize that to be Lee Harvey Oswald's.

Mr. JENNER. Would you read it, please?

Mr. OSWALD. "A square in Minsk."

Mr. JENNER. And on the opposite side is also depicted a public building?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Exhibit No. 304-B, does the reverse side of that exhibit contain any handwriting?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, it does not.

Mr. JENNER. The face of the exhibit, however, depicts a plaza with some public buildings?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Would you replace those photographs, please, in the envelope with the original?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Now, would you turn to the letter dated January 30, 1962, being Commission Exhibit No. 314?

Mr. OSWALD. All right, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Were there any contents accompanying this letter in addition to the letter itself?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe it did contain, sir--since there is no reference within the letter itself----

Mr. JENNER. It is your recollection?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it is my recollection that it did contain two photographs.

Mr. JENNER. Is it not a fact, sir, that when you exhibited the original of the letter, the original of the envelope, and removed the contents yesterday afternoon in my presence, that the two photographs to which you now refer were contained in the envelope?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Now, Mr. Liebeler, would you give us those A and B numbers, please?

Mr. LIEBELER. 314-A and B.

(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibits 314-A and 314-B, for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. Directing your attention to Commission Exhibit 314-A, that is a photograph, is it not?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Is there handwriting on the reverse side of that photograph?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; there is.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recognize the handwriting?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. JENNER. Whose is it?

Mr. OSWALD. Lee Harvey Oswald's.

Mr. JENNER. What does it say?

Mr. OSWALD. "April 30, 1961. Marina--Lee."

Mr. JENNER. Now, turn to the face of the exhibit, do you recognize the persons depicted in that photograph?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. JENNER. Who are they?

Mr. OSWALD. Left to right, Lee Harvey Oswald and Marina N. Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. And is the exhibit in the same condition it was when you removed the exhibit from the envelope upon receipt of the envelope, except for the exhibit number?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Would you turn to the other exhibit, Commission Exhibit No. 314-B?

And does the reverse side of that exhibit contain some handwriting?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it does.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recognize the handwriting?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. JENNER. Whose is it?

Mr. OSWALD. Lee Harvey Oswald's.

Mr. JENNER. What does it say?

Mr. OSWALD. "Marina, wedding day, April 30, 1961."

Mr. JENNER. Would you turn to the face of the exhibit. Do you recognize the person depicted on it?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. JENNER. Who is it?

Mr. OSWALD. Marina N. Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. Is that exhibit in the same condition now as it was when you received it and removed it from the envelope in which it was contained, being the letter dated January 30, 1962?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it is.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, I offer in evidence the series of letters which I have identified, and which the witness has confirmed, and the contents, being the now five photographs which have been identified, as Commission Exhibits Nos. 295, being a letter of eight pages, dated November 26, 1959; 296, a letter of one page--we don't have a more accurate date than the summer of 1959; 297, a letter of one page, dated December 17, 1959; 298, a letter of two pages, May 5, 1961; 299, a letter of three pages, dated May 31, 1961.

Mr. McKENZIE. Pardon me, Mr. Jenner, just a second.

The letter that you have referred to as being dated December 17, 1959, does not have a date on it. It's received December 17, 1959?

Mr. JENNER. That is in the witness' handwriting.

Mr. McKENZIE. Yes; in the witness' handwriting.

Mr. JENNER. The letter itself is undated.

Mr. McKENZIE. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. The words "received" and the figures December 17, 1959, are written by you on the letter?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And is that in fact the date it was received here in America by you?

Mr. OSWALD. It was, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Thank you for following me, Mr. McKenzie.

Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, Exhibit 299 is the letter which contains in part the paragraph written in Russian which on its face purports to have been a notation by Marina, which we have already identified.

Exhibit 300 is a letter of two pages, dated June 26, 1961.

Exhibit 301 is a letter of two pages dated July 14, 1961.

Exhibit 302 is a letter of one page dated July 28, 1961.

Exhibit 303 is a letter of two pages dated August 21, 1961.

Exhibit 305 we have already identified. That is September 10, 1961, the letter of three pages which contain the pictures of the public buildings and plaza in Minsk, Russia.

Exhibit 306 is a letter of two pages dated October 22, 1961.

Exhibit 307 is a letter of three pages dated November 20, 1961.

Mr. McKENZIE. Pardon me just a second, Mr. Jenner. Don't you have one dated November 1, 1961?

Mr. JENNER. Yes, it is out of order. I will reach it in due course. I am correct that there is a letter of three pages dated November 20, 1961?

Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Exhibit 308 is a letter of two pages dated November 30, 1961.

Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Exhibit 309 is a letter of two pages dated November 1, 1961. That is the one to which you have reference.

Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Exhibit 310 is a Christmas card dated December 11, 1961.

It is contained in an envelope, I believe.

Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir, it is.

Mr. JENNER. Is my statement correct?

Mr. McKENZIE. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Exhibit 311 is a letter of two pages dated December 14, 1961.

Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Exhibit 312 is a letter of one page dated December 20, 1961.

Mr. McKENZIE. December 20, 1961?

Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir.

Mr. McKENZIE. Three pages?

Mr. JENNER. One page.

Mr. McKENZIE. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Exhibit 313 is a letter of two pages dated January 5, 1962.

Mr. McKENZIE. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. January 5, 1962.

Mr. McKENZIE. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Exhibit 314 is a letter of three pages which we have identified, dated January 30, 1962, and contains the two photographs, one of Marina on the wedding day and then one of both of them on their wedding day.

Exhibit 315 is a letter of three pages dated February 15, 1962.

Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Exhibit 316 is a letter of two pages dated March 9, 1962.

Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Exhibit 317 is a letter of two pages, dated April 12, 1962.

Mr. McKENZIE. Again, on the letter of March 9, 1962, the date on that letter is the date written by Robert Oswald the day he received that letter. The letter itself is actually undated. But the envelope is dated by Robert Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. That is correct, Mr. Oswald?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And is the envelope postmarked?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it is.

Mr. JENNER. And the postmark is----

Mr. OSWALD. March 9, 1962, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Thank you.

Mr. DULLES. That is date of receipt?

Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Exhibit 317 is a letter of two pages dated April 12, 1962.

Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Exhibit 318 is a letter of two pages dated May 22, 1962.

Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Exhibit 319 is the front and reverse side of a postcard dated October 10, 1962.

Mr. McKENZIE. No, sir. April 10, 1962.

Mr. JENNER. That is the postcard the witness----

Mr. McKENZIE. Has previously identified as being in the European tradition of dating.

Mr. JENNER. Exhibit 320 is a letter of one page dated November 11, 1962. Or is that '61? Would you check me on that, please?

Mr. McKENZIE. I don't find that. Is it a letter or a postcard?

That is November 11. That should be November 17, 1962. The photocopy did not pick up all of it. And if you would like for us, we will change that to November 17. It should be November 17th.

Mr. JENNER. Would you make that change, please, in ink.

Mr. McKENZIE. That is Exhibit No. 320.

Mr. JENNER. Commission Exhibit No. 320, a letter of one page, the original dated November 17th. What year?

Mr. McKENZIE. Just November 17th. But the postmark shows it was dated November 18, 1962.

Mr. JENNER. Exhibit No. 321 is a postcard dated April 10, 1962.

Mr. OSWALD. To which you have previously referred.

Mr. JENNER. Have we got a duplication?

Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Are Exhibits 319 and 321 duplicates?

Mr. McKENZIE. I would have to look at the exhibit. I have the original here in front of me.

Mr. JENNER. They are different exhibits.

Mr. McKENZIE. This is Exhibit 321.

The other one is this one you have here, and it is dated October 10, 1962.

Mr. JENNER. All right. To make sure the record is clear, Mr. Chairman--Exhibit No. 319, which is a postcard, is cancelled on its face at Dallas on the 10th day of October 1962, and it reads on the other side, "Dear Robert, for the new address you can write to Box 2915, Dallas, Texas. Also please stop by the house and collect any mail which may have come in before the post office had a chance to change my address to Dallas." And then in the center of the card "Lee", with two X marks. Is that correct?

Mr. McKENZIE. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Now, that is Exhibit 319.

Now, Exhibit 321----

Mr. DULLES. Let me see. I would like to straighten that out.

Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. DULLES. Back on the record.

Mr. JENNER. Exhibit No. 321 is the postcard dated April 10, 1962.

Mr. McKENZIE. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. I might say, Mr. Chairman, I had marked the exhibits correctly.

Mr. McKENZIE. And I concur in that remark.

Mr. JENNER. Exhibit No. 322 is a letter of two pages dated March 17, 1963.

Mr. McKENZIE. Dated March 16, 1963. It is postmarked the 17th, but dated March 16, 1963.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibits, Exhibits 295 through 322, both inclusive, the documents that have been marked with the exhibit numbers so indicated, including the sub-exhibit numbers on the photographs which have been heretofore identified.

Mr. DULLES. They may be received.

(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibits 295 through 322, inclusive, and received in evidence.)

Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, if I may, I would like to say something for the purpose of the record.

Robert Oswald has brought these exhibits voluntarily. They are at the Commission's convenience at any time. We do not know whether or not they have been censored in Russia, but we are confident that they were, because some of the letters refer to the censor in Russia.

Mr. JENNER. That will appear, Mr. Chairman, from the photostats of the exhibits as offered in evidence.

Mr. DULLES. Thank you very much, Mr. McKenzie.

Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Now, Mr. McKenzie, among the original postcards and letters which you produced for us is a postcard dated January 13----

Mr. McKENZIE. January 10th.

Mr. JENNER. January 10, 1963. And may I have that, please?

Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir; you may.

Mr. JENNER. That will be marked as Commission Exhibit No. 324.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 324 for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. Does the witness have the original before him?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Examining Commission Exhibit No. 324, which purports to be a postcard, it is in fact a postcard, is it not?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And do you recognize the handwriting on the face and reverse side of that postcard?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I do.

Mr. JENNER. Whose handwriting is it?

Mr. OSWALD. Lee Harvey Oswald's.

Mr. JENNER. Did you receive that postcard in due course or about the cancellation date appearing on the face of the card?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. JENNER. And that cancellation date is January 13, 1963, is it not?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; that is not correct. It is January 10, 1963.

Mr. JENNER. This photostat makes a 10 look like a 13.

This postcard was written to you, sent to you by your brother, Lee Harvey Oswald, thanking you for a Christmas gift, was it not?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And is the postcard in the same condition now as it was when you received it?

Mr. OSWALD. Exactly, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibit No. 324 the document which we have so marked.

Mr. DULLES. It may be received.

(The document heretofore marked for identification as Commission Exhibit No. 324 was received in evidence.)

Mr. JENNER. We will return, Mr. Oswald, to the period about which inquiries were made of you by Representative Ford and Representative Boggs yesterday. That is, you had testified, as you will recall, of efforts on the part of your mother to reach your brother by telephone in Russia when news reached America of his alleged defection. I am merely seeking to orient you at the moment.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. Thank you.

Mr. JENNER. In due course, you received a letter communication from him, did you not?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. JENNER. Including the letter of November 8, 1959, about which I questioned you yesterday.

Now, I wish to proceed to the next letter, which is the letter of November 26, 1959, a rather long letter.

As a matter of fact, it consists of eight pages.

Would you get that letter before you, please?

Mr. OSWALD. All right, sir.

I have the letter before me now, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you will note from the letter that it purports to be, and from its contents it is indicated that your brother Lee is responding to correspondence that he had in turn received from you.

I ask you this question first.

As to all of these letters which you have now identified this morning, or substantially all of them, had you been in correspondence with your brother in the sense that you also wrote him?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Did you by any chance happen to retain a copy of, or copies of any of the letters you sent him?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not.

Mr. JENNER. So that at the moment we would have to call solely on your recollection as to what you might have written during this period of time while he was in Russia?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. DULLES. You made no copies of the letters yourself when you sent them--you just sent an original? There was no copy?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, no copies were made.

Mr. JENNER. I suggested that you might, during the evening, read the letter of November 26th so as to refresh your recollection as to whether you had written him posing questions to which he responded. Have you had that opportunity?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not had that opportunity to read this letter.

Mr. JENNER. I would prefer to pass this letter, then, Mr. Chairman, until the witness does have an opportunity to read it. Would you try and do so at your first opportunity?

Mr. OSWALD. All right, sir.

Mr. McKENZIE. It won't take but a minute here to do it.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. DULLES. We will recess for lunch at this time.

(Whereupon, at 12:15 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)

Afternoon Session

TESTIMONY OF ROBERT EDWARD LEE OSWALD RESUMED

The President's Commission reconvened at 1:15 p.m.

Mr. DULLES. You may proceed, Mr. Jenner.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Oswald, I have asked you--may I inquire of you whether during the noon hour recess you have read Commission Exhibit 295, which is a letter of November 26, 1959, from your brother to you?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have.

Mr. JENNER. And have you also read the letter that preceded that one, to wit, the letter of November 8, 1959, which is to you from your brother, which is Commission Exhibit No. 294?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have.

Mr. JENNER. Now, Mr. Chairman, the letter of November 8, which is the earlier of these two letters--this was written by Lee Harvey Oswald shortly after he arrived in Moscow in 1959. In substance, he said in the letter that he supposed his brother Robert, the witness here, did not wish to speak of his decision, that is, of Lee Harvey Oswald's decision to remain in the Soviet Union and apply for citizenship there, since Robert would not be able--and now I quote--"to comprehend my reasons"--that is Lee Harvey Oswald's reasons. "You really don't know anything about me. Do you know for instance, that I have wanted to do this for well over a year? Do you know that I speak a fair amount of Russian, which I have been studying for months?"

The letter also said that he would not leave the Soviet Union under any conditions, and would never return to the United States, "which is a country I hate." He made reference to the fact that he received a telegram from Robert in which Robert had apparently said that he thought Lee "was making a mistake."

Now, directing your attention to the November 8 letter first, would you please state your reaction when you read that letter?

(At this point the letters of November 8, 1959 and November 26, 1959 were physically set forth in the transcript of testimony. In order to achieve consistency in the handling of the exhibits upon the printing of the testimony, those letters are not reproduced in the printed transcript. They are reproduced in the exhibit section as Commission Exhibits Nos. 294 and 295.)

Mr. OSWALD. I recall my reactions to this letter, sir. It was something I more or less expected in general, since this was, more or less in general what the newspapers had been publishing.

Mr. JENNER. Is that the only reason you make that remark--that you had expected it in general solely because of what you read in the newspapers, or had there been any other factor that led you to have that expectation?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; there was no other factor that led be to believe that anything like this was going to happen prior to the happening. My reaction to the letter, as I have stated, was solely in general expecting from what I read in the newspaper that the letter would be something of this nature when I did hear from him.

Mr. JENNER. Had you had any conversation prior thereto during your lifetime and that of your brother Lee in which he expressed his views of the character that he wrote in this letter of November 8, 1959?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I most certainly did not.

Mr. JENNER. Had you ever discussed with him, in any conversation between you and your brother Lee, with or without your brother John present or your mother, in which his feeling toward or reaction to the government of the United States had been discussed?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; at no time, as I stated yesterday, have we ever discussed politics, and most assuredly I did not have any inclination in any degree that anything of this nature was in his mind.

Mr. JENNER. So the views expressed by your brother in the letter of November 8 came to you as a complete surprise?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; with the qualification that this is what I expected after reading the newspapers.

Mr. DULLES. May I ask one question there.

When your brother left, after that short stay following his service in the Marine Corps, did you know that he was going to Russia--did he say anything to you about going to Russia at that time?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not.

Mr. JENNER. What did he say to you as to his plans?

Mr. OSWALD. That he was going to New Orleans, Louisiana, to visit my Aunt Lillian.

Mr. JENNER. Your Aunt Lillian whom?

Mr. OSWALD. Murret.

Mr. JENNER. The family you identified yesterday--the Murret branch of your family?

Mr. OSWALD. I don't recall identifying them.

Mr. JENNER. There was one occasion yesterday.

Mr. OSWALD. All right. Yes, sir; that is correct. And that he was----

Mr. JENNER. That is an Aunt on which side--your father's or mother's?

Mr. OSWALD. My mother's side. And that he was going to visit with them, and at the same time find a job in New Orleans, and make his home in New Orleans, Louisiana.

Mr. JENNER. Did he give you any indication at any time during his stay--this was in Fort Worth?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. During his stay in Fort Worth, upon his return and discharge from the service, and while he was there, that gave you any indication whatsoever of any intention on his part to leave the country?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; none whatsoever.

Mr. JENNER. Whether he was going to go to Europe, Russia, or anywhere else?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. The only information he gave me was that he was going only to New Orleans, Louisiana, from Fort Worth, Texas.

Mr. JENNER. Did you spend a good deal of time with him while he was in Fort Worth, Texas, in this interim period?

Mr. OSWALD. Approximately one day out of the two or three days he was there.

Mr. JENNER. Are you suggesting that most of your contact with him during this period was on one of those days, or that the total amount of time that you spent with him during that period aggregated one day?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, that I at least talked to him on the telephone on one day, and then the next day he spent the day at our home.

Mr. JENNER. And that is the day that you went off hunting, which you testified about yesterday?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And never during any of the contact that you had with him did he imply or state directly that he had any contemplation of a trip which would take him out of the United States?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. DULLES. You didn't know about his having applied for a new passport?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not know he applied for any passport.

Mr. JENNER. During the day that he visited you, did your mother visit at your home on that day?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she did not.

Mr. JENNER. At any time during the period between his discharge from the Marines and his arrival in Fort Worth, and his departure, was there any occasion on which both you, your mother, and your brother Lee were together?

Mr. OSWALD. None that I recall, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion between you at any time during that period of the reason, if any special reason, for his discharge from the Marine Corps, earlier than he might have been discharged in normal course, which as I understand would have been in December of that year?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, we had a brief discussion on that.

Mr. JENNER. Who initiated it?

Mr. OSWALD. I feel certain like I did.

Mr. JENNER. And what did you do? Ask him--just tell us what you asked him. And why you were curious, if you were.

Mr. OSWALD. To the best of my memory, I asked him--because I was aware of his approximate date of discharge, his regular date of discharge, or release from the service, and I asked him why he was discharged or released earlier than that date. And his reply was that mother had written the Red Cross and requested that he be released earlier.

Mr. JENNER. Written the Red Cross?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I also----

Mr. JENNER. Did he say why she had written requesting that he be released earlier?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, not to my recollection.

Mr. JENNER. He just said mother had written the Red Cross asking that he be released earlier.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. That is all he said?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. He didn't elaborate on that?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And you didn't inquire of him beyond that?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not.

Mr. JENNER. When had you last seen your mother prior to this occasion?

Mr. OSWALD. May I have his release date, please?

Mr. LIEBELER. September 11, 1959.

Mr. OSWALD. I would say approximately three or four months earlier.

Mr. JENNER. Three or four months. That would be sometime in May?

Mr. OSWALD. Approximately, yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. 1959?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Had you talked with her in the interim period?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I had.

Mr. JENNER. How long prior to his return to Fort Worth on September 11 or 12, 1959, had you talked to her?

Mr. OSWALD. I do not remember, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Well, could you give us an estimate, that is in terms of whether it was weeks or several months?

Mr. OSWALD. I can give an estimate of several months.

Mr. JENNER. Several months?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Your mother was then residing in Fort Worth, was she not?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. DULLES. Was she hospitalized at this period?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, she was not. Not to my knowledge.

Mr. JENNER. Were you aware of her state of well being?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. During the four month period?

Mr. OSWALD. Sir? During the four month period?

Mr. JENNER. You say for three to four months prior to September 11, you had not seen your mother, that for several months prior to that, you had not talked with her.

I take it from that that you were not aware of her well being, whether she was in good health, poor health, or otherwise?

Mr. OSWALD. During the approximate date of three or four months prior to Lee's release from the service, I was aware that she did have an accident at her place of employment there in Fort Worth, at which time, if memory serves me correct, something fell on her, on her face, and injured her nose.

I was aware from conversations with her at that time that she was consulting or going to various doctors. And she told me at that time----

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Having reached that point--is that how you first discovered that your mother had suffered an accident? You say she told you.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And I take it, then, that you had not talked with her for several months prior to September 11 nor seen her before sometime, or later than sometime in April of 1959, that this telephone conversation must have taken place several months prior to September 11. Am I correct about that?

Mr. OSWALD. It was not a telephone conversation, sir.

Mr. JENNER. You saw her?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. In the month of April '59?

Mr. OSWALD. Approximately that date.

Mr. JENNER. And did you visit her, or did she visit you?

Mr. OSWALD. I saw her at her place of employment.

Mr. JENNER. And how did that come about?

Mr. OSWALD. I do not remember, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Would it refresh your recollection if I recited some possibilities--that she called you and asked you to come to see her, that you desired to inquire of her, see if she was all right, or was it that you just happened to be in the downtown Fort Worth area, and you stopped by to see her, knowing where she was employed?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe the latter would possibly be more accurate.

Mr. JENNER. Is that your best recollection at the moment?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. She was not employed at that time at the downtown area of Fort Worth, but rather at a suburb store, Cox's Department Store.

Mr. JENNER. This is a shoe store?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, this is just a large department store, from wearing apparel to toys, a full line store.

Mr. JENNER. How did you become aware she was employed there?

Mr. OSWALD. I do not remember, sir.

Mr. JENNER. How long--did you know then how long she had been employed at Cox's Department Store?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not.

Mr. JENNER. How did you become aware of the fact she was so employed?

Mr. OSWALD. I do not remember, sir.

Mr. JENNER. You have no recollection?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I do not.

Mr. DULLES. About how long was this after the accident, or was it after the accident?

Mr. OSWALD. My recollection of that, sir--this was shortly after the accident. She was still employed there, even though I understand from our conversation that day that she had been off for a while--I don't know how long a period--and that she was still employed there. Because this is where I did see her, at her counter in this department store.

Mr. JENNER. On this occasion, when you stopped by to see her, she related to you an accident she had suffered--that was the first news you had of it?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. You had not known she was ill or what her state of well being was prior to that time?

Mr. OSWALD. None that I remember, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Where is the Cox's Department Store located with respect to your place of business? I am seeking now distance, and the convenience of getting there.

Mr. OSWALD. From my place of business at that time in Fort Worth this was approximately four or five miles west. I might further state, sir, it was approximately two miles from my home.

Mr. JENNER. Did you come from your home to her place of business or from work to her place of business?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe I went from home to her place of business.

Mr. JENNER. Was this a week day, a working day?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I don't believe it was.

Mr. JENNER. That is not for you. Was it for her?

Mr. OSWALD. It was for her, sir, not for me.

Mr. JENNER. I take it, then, it was a Saturday.

Mr. OSWALD. I would believe that would be correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And has this discussion served to refresh your recollection or stimulate your recollection now as to why you went by to see her?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it has not.

Mr. JENNER. May I ask you this, sir?

When had you last seen your mother prior to this occasion that you visited her?

Mr. OSWALD. I do not remember, sir. I would say, as we said before, several months.

Mr. JENNER. All right. That would be several more months, back into the winter time of 1959?

Mr. OSWALD. '58, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Yes--'58.

Well, would it be back in the winter of '58, say January? Or could it have been?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, not that long. We are talking, if I am correct, sir, approximately April of 1959. January of 1958 would be well over a year. It had not been that long.

Mr. JENNER. Well, then--I had said January '59, and you said several months.

Now, several months prior to April of 1959, would be or might be as far back as January of 1959, am I not correct?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, it could be that far.

Mr. JENNER. And your present recollection is that it might have been that much of a period of time--sometime in January, 1959, to this occasion in April of 1959 when you had--you visited her at Cox's Department Store?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; or possibly even longer.

Mr. JENNER. Possibly even longer than that. Back into 1958.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Could you give me your best recollection at the moment as to the last time you saw your mother in the year 1958?

Mr. OSWALD. I cannot recall any specific time during the year of 1958 that I did see her.

Mr. JENNER. Would it be if at all quite infrequent?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, quite infrequent.

Mr. JENNER. This leads me to put this general question to you, Mr. Oswald.

I take it that for some period of time in that area of time--that is '58, '59, and perhaps even back of that--your contact with your mother was quite limited?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Over what period of time did that persist? Give us the broad picture first.

Mr. OSWALD. I would say, sir, quite frankly that the original occurred prior to my joining the Marine Corps in 1952.

Mr. JENNER. And persisted thereafter?

Mr. OSWALD. Persisted thereafter that I saw her only very infrequently.

Mr. JENNER. Did your joining the Marine Corps--was that stimulated in any respect by your relations with your mother, or your mother's with you?

Mr. OSWALD. Partly, sir; it was.

Mr. JENNER. Would you state that, please?

Mr. OSWALD. At the end of the school year of 1952, which was approximately May 29, 1952----

Mr. JENNER. You were then 17 years old, is that correct?

Mr. OSWALD. 18 years old. I, of course, was still living at home. In approximately the middle part of June 1962 a friend of mine in Fort Worth and I decided to take a hitch-hiking trip to Florida. We left Fort Worth in the middle of June, 1962, and we----

Mr. DULLES. '52?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. In June of 1952 we left Fort Worth and traveled I believed as far as Gulfport, Mississippi. And this friend I was with--he did have a defect from birth on one foot that was starting to bother him. And we decided it was best to return to Fort Worth, by a different route than we originally left Fort Worth. We went from Fort Worth to Shreveport, New Orleans, and Gulfport, Mississippi.

Our return was Gulfport, Mississippi, New Orleans, Houston, Big Springs, Tex., and Fort Worth, Tex.

At that time I stayed at his home, with his mother and himself.

Mr. JENNER. Why?

Mr. OSWALD. Because mother and I was having a disagreement.

Mr. JENNER. About what?

Mr. OSWALD. About whether or not I was old enough to start my own life generally.

Mr. JENNER. That is whether you would depart the family home and live on your own?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, and generally whether or not I had the right to start my own life in the manner that I wanted to.

Mr. JENNER. Were you unhappy with the manner and fashion of life that you had led up to that moment?

Mr. OSWALD. Not in the manner or fashion, sir. I objected quite strongly to the apparent efforts of our mother to control me completely in all respects.

Mr. JENNER. Did that condition or relationship exist with respect to your brother, John Pic?

Mr. OSWALD. I would say generally it would, sir.

Mr. JENNER. It did rather than it would?

Mr. OSWALD. That it did, yes, sir--thank you.

Mr. JENNER. And was that a factor in his enlisting in the Coast Guard?

Mr. OSWALD. It is not to my knowledge that it was.

Mr. JENNER. I take it you and John, then, had had, if I may use my own expression, difficulties in your relationships with your mother, particularly with reference to what you gentlemen thought as you reached age 18, as the right to be independent and lead your own lives?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. DULLES. Do you think that your brother, Lee Oswald, had the same feeling, that may have affected his joining the Marines?

Mr. OSWALD. Based on my own personal experience, sir, I would reach that conclusion.

Mr. DULLES. You would?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I would.

Mr. DULLES. Thank you.

Did your mother know about this hitch-hiking trip, or did you just go off on the trip?

Mr. OSWALD. I just went off on the trip, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Without advising her?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Did you get in touch with her upon your return to Fort Worth?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. I would say this. I did attempt to call her before I left Fort Worth on this trip, and there was no answer at home.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Now what led us back along this trail was the conversation you had with your brother Lee when he was discharged from the Marines on September 11, 1959, and his statement to you that he had an early discharge because your mother had written a letter to the Red Cross.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And then you saw her in April, and that was the last time you saw her prior to seeing your brother on his discharge from the Marines?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Now----

Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one question there.

Do you know whether your brother stimulated this letter from your mother with regard to early discharge, or do you think she did this on her own, or don't you know?

Mr. OSWALD. It is my understanding, sir, that she had originated the request to the Red Cross.

Mr. JENNER. And that understanding is based on what?

Mr. OSWALD. Just a general feeling that I had at that time.

Mr. JENNER. Was it induced also by discovering from your brother that your mother had written a letter to the Red Cross?

Mr. OSWALD. I am sure it was, sir. And I might add I pointed out to Lee why did you accept this early discharge, since he only had a few months more, I believe it was, to go. Because it had been my experience in the service that when I ran across somebody who, for one reason or another, was going to get out a little bit early, I understood that they perhaps were subject to recall for that period at a later date, or something along that line. And I thought it was unwise.

Mr. JENNER. Is this what you said to him?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I pointed out--I felt like since it was to be under the regular enlistment period very shortly thereafter, I believe September 11, 1959, that it would have been the wise thing to stay in.

Mr. JENNER. What did he say to that?

Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall, sir.

Mr. JENNER. You were living in Fort Worth, married, and still you were having substantially little contact with your mother, is that correct?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Would you explain to the Commission the reasons for that, the conditions which brought that about?

Mr. OSWALD. After my marriage to Vada M. Oswald, my mother on a number of occasions--I say a number--perhaps three or four occasions--made it quite difficult for my wife and myself when we were in her presence at her apartment there in Fort Worth.

Mr. JENNER. Now, please, Mr. Oswald--when you say your mother made it quite difficult, give us some examples. What do you mean by "made it quite difficult"?

Mr. OSWALD. Generally, sir, it was the continuation that, even though I was married and apparently able to take care of myself and start my own family, she certainly wanted to--my mother certainly wanted to--still control my thinking, my actions, and my wife's actions.

Mr. JENNER. Can you give us one specific example?

Mr. OSWALD. Sir, I cannot recall any specific examples.

Mr. JENNER. Indicate the nature of those incidents.

Mr. DULLES. Had she objected to your marriage?

Mr. OSWALD. I don't believe she did, sir. At least I do not recall any time that she ever stated that, any objections to my marriage.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have the feeling that she objected?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, to some extent I did.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have a conversation with her about your becoming married before you became married?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I did.

Mr. JENNER. And did she--what views did she express in that connection?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, that would be generally that I was leaving her alone, that both Lee and John at this time were in the service, and she would be alone, and that she would like for me to live with her, that I would stay with her.

Mr. JENNER. When was your marriage again, please?

Mr. OSWALD. I have never stated it before, sir. It was in November--November 20 or 21, 1956.

Mr. McKENZIE. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. JENNER. The question has been asked of you as to the date of your marriage.

Mr. OSWALD. This was in November 1956, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Had you been courting your present wife prior to that time?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Was your mother acquainted with her?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes sir; she was.

Mr. JENNER. Did she--did her objections to your marriage, in addition to those you stated--were there any personalities in the sense of her objecting to your fiance?

Mr. OSWALD. None that I recall, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have any feeling that there was any personality in the sense of objection on her part, or lack of approval of your fiance?

Mr. OSWALD. If I might say, sir, I feel sure there was, and in my mind right now--I can think of really no one that she ever approved of to the extent of my friend, either boys or girls.

Mr. JENNER. Was that also true of your brother, John Pic? And I will also ask you about Lee Harvey.

Mr. OSWALD. John very seldom, if memory serves me correct, ever brought any of his friends over to the house, to meet mother.

Mr. JENNER. Presented them to mother, you mean?

Mr. OSWALD. Presented them to mother.

Mr. JENNER. Was that his choice?

Mr. OSWALD. I would say so now that I believe it would have been his choice.

Mr. JENNER. He preferred not to?

Mr. OSWALD. This would be my assumption, that he preferred not to.

Mr. JENNER. Not presenting his friends to your mother?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Would you answer the same question as to Lee, as to whether he brought his friends to your home?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I believe he did. He quite frequently played around the house with friends there in the neighborhood.

Mr. JENNER. They were children, however, in the immediate neighborhood?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. He is five years younger than you.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. He would have been 13 in 1952, this period we are talking about.

Mr. JENNER. We are interested in this matter of the antipathy existing between you and John on the one hand and your mother on the other. Had that gone on for sometime? In order that I don't violate the same thing that I raise with you occasionally, let me take you back to the military school days, or to Bethlehem Orphanage. Did a measure of antipathy exist at that time?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I don't believe it did.

Mr. JENNER. When did it really arise in any marked degree?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe after her divorce from Mr. Ekdahl.

Mr. JENNER. That was in June 1948.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. And from the time that we moved to the Young Street address in Fort Worth.

Mr. JENNER. At or about that time?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Would you refresh my recollection as to when that was? Was that in 1948?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it was.

Mr. JENNER. Would you please indicate how that antipathy or that change was evident? What change of attitude was there, either on the part of you boys, or on her part, or on the part of all of you?

Mr. OSWALD. Perhaps, sir, for the first time in any period, all of us were together. And perhaps, sir--I say perhaps this would be correct--she did not know myself and my older brother John at that particular time to any extent.

Mr. JENNER. You had been away at school pretty much?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. But you had been home for three months in the summertime?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. But still, searching my own mind, I certainly felt this way at that time. And John and I were not accustomed to her. Certainly I cannot speak for John. But for myself, on that point, I would say we were not accustomed to her. We had become--there again I say we--John and I--I feel like I certainly had become more disciplined and used to being disciplined by men, and not used to having a woman around the house. I believe this was perhaps my feeling at that time.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, if we can return to the events of April 1959, did your mother appear to you to have been injured?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; she did.

Mr. JENNER. What evidence was there of her injury?

Mr. OSWALD. There appeared to be a little swelling in the upper part of the nose.

Mr. JENNER. Any scratch or other skin break?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; none that I recall.

Mr. JENNER. Did you form an opinion at that time as to whether her injury was major or minor?

Mr. OSWALD. I asked her about it, or she volunteered the information of how the accident occurred, and that she had been seeing doctors, and so forth. And I did recall her stating to me that she had been to either two or three doctors, and none of them had said anything was wrong with her, and then she was insisting that there was definitely something wrong, and she was continuing to see other doctors.

Mr. JENNER. Had that sort of thing occurred prior thereto, in which your mother felt that she was ill and she went to physicians, and the physicians indicated otherwise?

Mr. OSWALD. Not to my knowledge, sir.

Mr. JENNER. She was not chronic in that respect?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, not to my knowledge.

Mr. DULLES. Was she hospitalized at any time in connection with this injury?

Mr. OSWALD. Not to my knowledge, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Did she have to give up her work for a period of time, or did she continue working?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe she did miss a short period of time when the accident occurred.

Mr. DULLES. Thank you.

Mr. JENNER. But she was at work on the day you visited her?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Were you forewarned that your brother was returning from the service earlier than he was scheduled to return?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I don't believe I was.

Mr. JENNER. Were you forewarned that he was returning at all at this particular time--that is, on or about the 11th of September, 1959?

Mr. OSWALD. If I may take a moment, please, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir.

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I was not aware that he was being released from the service earlier.

Mr. JENNER. Had you received any communication from him prior to his return--that is a communication that was reasonably near the time of his return?

Mr. OSWALD. The only one that I have a record of, sir, is a letter dated--postmarked June 6, 1959, at Santa Ana, California, addressed to me at my Fort Worth address of 7313 Davenport, return address, Pfc. L. H. Oswald, Santa Ana, California. The letter itself is undated.

Mr. JENNER. You have made reference, Mr. Oswald, to a letter you received in an envelope postmarked June 6, 1959, from your brother. You have the original of that letter before you?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. JENNER. Now, that letter--did you receive in addition to this letter until September 11, 1959, any other letter from your brother?

Mr. OSWALD. Not that I can recall, sir, or that I have record of.

Mr. JENNER. Now, this letter in the third paragraph reads, "Well, pretty soon I will be getting out of the Corps, and I know what I want to be and how I am going to be it, which I guess is the most important thing in my life"--"in life." Have I read it correctly?

Mr. OSWALD. You have, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you respond to that letter?

Mr. OSWALD. Not to my recollection did I respond to the letter, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Now, when your brother was mustered out, on or about September 11, 1959, did you have a discussion with him with respect to this subject matter--that is what he wanted to be in life, and how he was going to go about it?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not--to this extent. He did, of course, indicate to me that he wanted to go to New Orleans, Louisiana, and live and find a job there, and he did not indicate what type of job or what type of work he wanted to do.

Mr. JENNER. For the purpose of the record, Mr. Chairman, this letter has been identified and is in evidence as Commission Exhibit No. 296.

How did you learn that your brother was in Fort Worth, upon his being mustered out of the Marines?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, he called me on arrival at Fort Worth.

Mr. JENNER. That was the first notice or knowledge that you had that he had been discharged?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Is that correct?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And his call to you was the first notice or knowledge you had that he was in Fort Worth?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. It necessarily follows, and I take it it is a fact, that your mother had not called you to advise you that he was being discharged or would be discharged at or about that time?

Mr. OSWALD. Not that I can remember, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Might I ask you at this point whether your brother ever talked to you about his experience in the Marines. Did he tell you anything about that, give you any incidents? I think you only had one day--that would have taken place on that one day, between the three or four days between his return and going off again.

Mr. JENNER. Or may I add, Mr. Chairman, any correspondence he had in the Marines, and any leaves.

Mr. DULLES. We have no letters, have we, from the witness?

Mr. JENNER. No, but I thought there might possibly be some.

Mr. DULLES. I don't want to interrupt, but it seemed to me to fit in at this particular point.

Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall, other than general discussion, about the Marine Corps. I recall--and I believe this was on his leave in 1958, when we discussed this--I had asked him did he know any of my drill instructors, and I at the time recalled a senior drilling instructor at Camp Pendleton, by the name of Sgt. Cobie. And he stated he did not. However, he did run across, while he was in boot camp, some other drill instructor, but he could not recall his name, who stated he recalled me, or asked him one day did he have a brother that had been in the Marine Corps a few years before. He said yes, he had. And apparently this man did remember me, because he asked was I the right guide in that platoon. And my brother Lee did not know that I was. I do recall that conversation.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have any other conversation with him or any correspondence from him in which the subject matter of his career in the Marines was discussed, or to which allusion was made?

Mr. OSWALD. I certainly received other letters during the course of his enlistment in the United States Marine Corps. I do not recall any specific instance that reflected what his opinion was of the Marine Corps, nor that at any time I remember did he refer to any happenings or incidents while he was in the Marine Corps that perhaps might upset him, or might have made him happy.

Mr. JENNER. Nothing either way?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Completely bland in that respect?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Do you recall whether any of those letters are available now? Do you have those letters?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I believe I do not have those. I say I believe I do not. I have looked for just everything that I could possibly find on Lee's life, and letters and so forth, and I have not run across any others.

Mr. JENNER. I was about to ask you that. You have made a thorough search?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have.

Mr. DULLES. If you should find them, you will make them available to us, will you not?

Mr. OSWALD. Certainly, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Thank you.

Just one more question on that, if I may. I would gather that the correspondence you had during his stay in Russia was more voluminous than while he was in the Marine Corps, from what you tell me.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it certainly was. There was certainly a larger flow of letters from him, and from me to him, at this time than there was during his stay in the United States Marine Corps.

Mr. DULLES. Thank you.

Mr. JENNER. So while he was in Russia, he wrote you considerably more often, at least after the first year, I guess it was, or nine months, than he had theretofore?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. If I might there again refer to the letters from Russia received from Lee Harvey Oswald and placed in evidence before this Commission, when he notified us in 1959 that he was no longer going to write or contact us, and did not want us to contact him in any way, it was until April of 1961 before I heard from him again, which was, of course, a period of time after one year.

Mr. JENNER. Had you written him in the meantime?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. Did you know where he was in the meantime--that is, any particular town or city in Russia?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. DULLES. And you had the impression that he did not want you to write to him at that time?

Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Dulles, he says that in the letters.

Mr. JENNER. Yes--one of these letters I am about to examine him about so states.

That is correct, is it not?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. I take it, then, however, that in contrast, commencing with the letter in 1961, April I believe you said it was--from that time forward, there was, by comparison, a considerable number of letters, and a larger volume of correspondence than you had ever had from your brother?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, there was a continuous flow. Realizing the period that it would take to make a complete cycle of the exchange of one letter to another, of approximately two weeks--the letters were quite regular.

Mr. JENNER. And this had not been the pattern even in prior years.

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not.

Mr. JENNER. When he was in the Marine Corps, or when you were in the Marine Corps?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not.

Mr. JENNER. Confirmatory of that, Mr. Oswald, I note in Commission Exhibit No. 296, is the last paragraph which reads, "I know I haven't written in a long time. Please excuse me. Well, there really isn't too much news here. But I would like to hear from you and the family. Write soon. Your brother, Lee". I take it from that that there had been--this was the first communication you had had from him, as he says, in a long time.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Does your memory serve you sufficiently now to define more clearly the period to which he refers as "a long time"?

Mr. OSWALD. I would say in between the leave in 1958, and his letter received, postmarked in June 1959, I would not have received over two or three letters.

Mr. JENNER. His leave in '58 was when, again, please?

Mr. OSWALD. I recall this to be in the early fall of the year--perhaps September.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Directing your attention now back to the letter of November 8, 1959, which is Commission Exhibit 294, I will ask you this: Is this the first letter you received from him from Russia?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Is it the first communication of any kind, at least directly from or initially by him, that you had from him?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. This is, then, the first time you heard from him from the day he departed to go to New Orleans, as he had stated to you, for the purpose of finding employment?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. You testified yesterday that you responded to this letter--that is, Commission Exhibit 294, dated November 8, 1959. Is that correct?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. You were unable to recall particularly well yesterday your letter in response to Commission Exhibit 294. Has the reading of the letter of November 26, 1959, which is Commission Exhibit 295, and your re-reading of the letter of November 8, Commission Exhibit 294, served to refresh your recollection as to the contents of your letter which you wrote in response to Commission Exhibit 294?

Mr. OSWALD. To some degree, sir, it most certainly has.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Would you now, having had your recollection refreshed, relate to us as near as may be, if you are able to do so, your letter in response to your brother's letter, Commission Exhibit 294?

Mr. OSWALD. Which was the letter of November 8--is that correct?

Mr. JENNER. That is correct.

Mr. OSWALD. To the best of my recollection, in my response to his letter, I asked him why he went to Russia, and for what purpose he went to Russia. And I believe, sir, that is to the best of my ability, in the remembrance of my letter, that would be the only two questions that I asked him.

Mr. JENNER. Now, in the letter of November 8, he says, "Do you know, for instance, that I have wanted to do this for well over a year"--that is, go to Russia. I take it from your prior testimony that you had not known, either well over a year or even for an instant, that he had any intention of going to Russia.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Had the name Albert Schweitzer College ever been mentioned by your brother Lee prior to this time--that is, let us say, prior to the middle of September 1959?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not.

Mr. JENNER. He also states in this letter of November 8--makes the rhetorical question--"Do you know that I speak a fair amount of Russian, which I have been studying for many months". Had that subject matter ever come to your attention prior to his uttering it in the letter of November 8?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it had not.

Mr. JENNER. You did not know, up until this time, that your brother had been studying Russian while in the Marines?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. And again if I may elaborate on that, I was not aware that he ever studied any foreign language.

Mr. DULLES. Did your brother ever talk to you about what he was reading during this period?

Mr. JENNER. Or at any time, during his school period?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. Of course, I have seen him read various books. I never did see him read a book--unless the covers--or perhaps if I picked it up--it didn't indicate anything about communism or socialism. He did like to read. He read quite a bit. And by this, I have observed him to read anything from funny books to novels, to westerns, the full scope. He liked American history. I have seen him read American history a great deal.

Mr. JENNER. Was he a voracious reader? That is, did he read a great deal, devote much attention to reading?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, he was what I would term an assiduous reader.

Mr. JENNER. I am directing your attention to his--oh, say, from age, let's say, nine or ten to the time he enlisted in the Marines--maybe we better go back a little bit more, since you were away. I would like to cover his youth up to the time he enlisted in the Marines. Is that the period of which you speak?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not. I speak of a later period--my visit to New Orleans after I received my discharge from the Marine Corps.

Mr. JENNER. And before he enlisted in the marines?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; before he enlisted in the Marine Corps. And of his moving to Fort Worth.

Mr. JENNER. Fix the time.

Mr. OSWALD. With mother--in 1955.

Mr. JENNER. On these occasions you observed him reading assiduously?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And you had an opportunity, and you embraced it to some extent, just out of curiosity if nothing else, of observing the nature and character of the literature and the subject matter of the literature he was reading?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And it is of the nature and the subject matter you already stated?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. During any of that period, and any observation you ever made whether then or prior thereto, had you noticed him or seen any books--he uses the expression "Marxism", communism--or any books or works, or pamphlets of that nature?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not. I did not at any time observe him reading or have in his possession any type of pamphlet or book, should I say, of a political nature.

Mr. JENNER. Even American politics?

Mr. OSWALD. American politics, of course--American history, of course, would go into some degree of American politics.

Mr. JENNER. I think you are probably right. But other than American history.

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not observe him.

Mr. JENNER. Now, your brother states in this letter of November 8, the United States was a country that he hated. Taking the whole letter, we would like to have you state what your reaction to the letter was when you received it and read it, in view of the rather severe things he says, and startling things he says in this letter.

Mr. OSWALD. If I may, sir, refer to my testimony yesterday in relation to this letter, and my reactions then, I thought more along that line. I have not come up with any other conclusions where my thinking as to my reaction at the time I received the letter--other than it was something that I expected, due to what I had read in the newspapers prior to receiving the letter of November 8, 1959.

Mr. JENNER. Your shock, if I may call it such, had been conditioned----

Mr. OSWALD. To some degree it had; yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. In other words, then, the letter, when you did receive it, with these utterances in it, did not surprise you?

Mr. OSWALD. I feel, perhaps, if anything would have surprised me that did not appear, to my recollection, would be the statement "I will never return to the United States, which is a country I hate," particularly the latter part of that statement--"which is a country I hate."

Mr. JENNER. That did shock you despite your having read the newspaper clippings or articles?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I feel certain that it did.

Mr. JENNER. And in your response to your brother's letter, did you advert to that particular portion of his letter? To the best of your recollection?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir--I was just making a note on that. I didn't realize you would ask me that so soon. I do believe I asked him why he hated the United States.

Mr. JENNER. Now, have you given us--exhausted your recollection as to the content of the letter you wrote in response to the letter of November 8, Commission Exhibit 294?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I feel I have.

Mr. JENNER. Well, now, let us turn, if we might, to Letter No. 26, which is Exhibit 295, an eight-page letter.

Mr. OSWALD. All right, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, to summarize this letter, if I may, for you, it is an eight-page letter. Lee Harvey Oswald sets forth in it extensively his philosophies, what they purport to be as of that time, the reasons why he has decided to defect to the Soviet Union.

He complained about the economic system in the United States.

Mr. DULLES. System?

Mr. JENNER. System--which he stated exploited all of its workers.

He complained of segregation and unemployment, and automation in the United States.

He stressed disapproval of American foreign policy, which he characterized as being one of imperialism. In framework, it is framed as a response partly to some questions that our present witness has posed in a letter, which Mr. Robert Oswald had written in response to the letter of November 8, such as a question as to why Lee Harvey Oswald and his fellow workers and communists would like to see the present capitalist system of the United States overthrown--he having made an indication to the witness in that respect.

Apparently in Robert's letter to Lee, he had couched it in terms of suggesting that apparently Lee Harvey Oswald thought he might have some advantage economically if he went to Russia, and Lee Harvey Oswald responded, "So you speak of advantages. Do you think that is why I am here, for personal material advantages? Happiness is not based on one's self, does not consist of a small home, of taking and getting. Happiness is taking part in a struggle where there is no borderline between one's own personal world and the world in general. I never believed I would find more material advantages at this stage of development in the Soviet Union than I might have had in the United States."

Mr. McKENZIE. At this point, Mr. Chairman, I might also add, in connection with what Mr. Jenner has stated about this letter, that the letter appears, in answering questions that Robert may have posed in a previous letter to Lee Harvey Oswald--it appears to have been lifted in some respects out of a communist text, and it even appears to me--and this is pure supposition, that it could possibly have been written by someone else with Lee Harvey Oswald coming back in and adding other things to it. It is the longest letter received, consisting of some eight pages. A careful reading of the letter will show only one or two misspelled words, whereas in the other letters there are a number of misspelled words.

And I don't know what that adds or detracts from the record. But I do feel that there is a difference in the letters as you read all of them put together.

Mr. DULLES. I am glad you called that to our attention. It is an interesting observation.

Mr. OSWALD. And I would like to, if I may, point out something I observed in between the letter of November 8, 1959, and the letter of November 26, 1959.

In the letter of November 8, 1959, towards the last paragraph on the last page, I quote, "I really don't see what we could talk about. If you want to send me money, that I can use. But I do not expect to be able to pay it back."

I now refer to the letter of November 26, 1959, on the last page, the second last paragraph, "I have no money problems at all"--underlined.

"My situation was not really as stable then as it is now. I have no troubles at all now along that line."

Mr. McKENZIE. And, furthermore, he had moved from Room 233 in the Metropole Hotel to Room 201 in the Metropole Hotel. And marks on the letter of November 26th, "Note new room number."

Mr. DULLES. Could I get into the record here, just for clarification--when was this written in relation to his arrival in the Soviet Union? Do we have that on the record? Was it a month after? Was it before the other incident that has been described for the record, with regard to----

Mr. OSWALD. If I may, sir; I believe I can answer that.

Mr. JENNER. I didn't want to hazard a guess. If you know, will you please state it?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe Lee, as a matter of record, did arrive in the Soviet Union on October 13, 1959.

Mr. DULLES. Is it written then, roughly, a little less than a month and--a little over a month after his arrival--these two letters referred to?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. I intended to draw your attention to that which you have already mentioned--that is, in the letter of November 8 he indicated that he would be pleased if you would send him some funds, whereas on the last page of the letter of November 26th he advises you that as far as funds are concerned--he is in good shape.

Mr. DULLES. And both of these letters were written, as I recall, before he was advised that he could not stay on in the Soviet Union the first time?

Mr. JENNER. That is correct, sir. They are written before he went to Minsk, as well.

Mr. DULLES. Thank you.

Mr. JENNER. Had you sent him any funds in the interim period?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

Referring to my testimony yesterday--at which time I replied to his letter of November 8, 1959, on his request for any money that I might send him, I stated to him I would gladly send him the necessary money for his return to the United States, and for that reason only.

I did not enclose any money in my answer.

Mr. JENNER. Now, that is an interesting factor about which I would like to inquire of you; also, as to its implication.

Later, your brother, as the correspondence we have now introduced in evidence discloses, desired to return to the United States. And he was having, according to the correspondence, some problem in raising the necessary funds to return to the United States.

Did he at any time write you requesting that you honor your letter in response to his letter of November 8th in which you said you would gladly send him money to return to the United States?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not request it directly. He had certainly indicated, as his letters do indicate, that he was having a little difficulty in raising the necessary funds to return to the United States. And I, in my reply to that letter, volunteered to raise the necessary funds to bring his wife and himself to the United States.

Mr. JENNER. Would you identify the particular letter to which you now refer?

Mr. OSWALD. In reply to your question, sir, I am referring to the letter of February 15, 1962.

Mr. JENNER. Which, for the record, is Commission Exhibit 315.

Did you respond to that letter and offer to advance to him the funds necessary to bring about his return to the United States?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did. And I also included an offer for him to stay with us on his return to the United States, he and his family, for any length of time that they so desired, until he was able to get settled himself.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever receive from him a letter in which he responded directly to your offer to advance funds?

Perhaps I will put it this way. Have you produced all of the letters that you received from him while he was in Russia?

Mr. OSWALD. To my knowledge this is all of the letters I received from him.

Mr. JENNER. Did you make it a practice during this period to keep, intentionally and deliberately keep, all letters that you received from him?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that was my intention.

Mr. JENNER. To the best of your knowledge you have produced all of those letters to the Commission?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever report to your brother that it would be necessary for you to make a loan on your automobile in order to advance any funds to him?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not.

Mr. JENNER. Including particularly the $200 that you advanced to him when he returned in June of 1962?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not.

Mr. JENNER. Did you become aware at any time prior to November 22, 1963, that he made a representation to the New York welfare authorities that it would be necessary for you to make a loan on your automobile to advance the $200?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I have not.

Mr. JENNER. There was no discussion of that subject by him with you when he returned to Fort Worth and lived in your home, or thereafter?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. This is the first knowledge I have of such a report.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Now, returning to the letter of November 26--and keeping in mind, also, the letter--let's just stay with the letter of November 26th.

Prior to the time of the receipt of that letter, had your brother Lee ever in your presence uttered thoughts of that nature, or even spoken to you any thoughts of the nature contained in the letter of November 26th with respect to the United States, its economic system, Communist Russia, or countries of that character?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not.

Mr. JENNER. And what was your reaction to the letter of November 26, particularly those features of it dealing with his attitudes towards the United States and its political and economic and social system?

Mr. OSWALD. Sir, I remember somewhat vividly my reply to him--my reply to his letter----

Mr. JENNER. You did reply to the letter of November 26th?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Would you please state what your reply was?

Mr. OSWALD. I did reply to the letter of November 26, 1959, and it was--and I believe until this day remains to be the longest letter I ever wrote.

Mr. JENNER. All right--tell us about it.

Mr. OSWALD. I answered all the questions as to--if I may refer to the first question.

"Do you remember the time you told me about the efforts of your milk company to form a union? Try to see why workers must form unions against employers in the United States."

I recall I did reply to that statement.

Mr. JENNER. What did you say?

Mr. OSWALD. It was my opinion--and I am not anti-union or pro-union. I believe it should be taken on the basis of the individual companies. It was my opinion that I expressed to him at that time that in this country, the employees did have a right to vote yes or no whether or not they wanted a union, and in this particular instance, the union was voted out.

Mr. DULLES. Could we just have a moment's pause?

(Brief recess.)

Mr. DULLES. Will you proceed?

Is it all right to proceed?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; please.

Mr. JENNER. You were reciting what you said in your letter of response to the letter of November 26.

Mr. OSWALD. All right, sir, if I may pause a moment to locate the second question or some statement that perhaps I recall referring to directly in my reply--I recall replying to the statement that was, that is contained, on the second page of the letter of November 26, to the latter part of this statement that I will quote from: "See the segregation, see the unemployment and what automation is. Remember how you were laid off at Convair?"

I am referring now to the last question of "Remember how you were laid off at Convair?"

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. OSWALD. I believe I pointed out to him at that time that this was something I was aware of when I accepted the job at Convair in Fort Worth, Texas. It was a condition, perhaps an unspoken condition, because it was a government job in that when I was laid off, I did not have to go only to the government to look for employment but I was able to secure the type of employment that I was most interested in at that time or that he had a variety to choose from and that no one would say to me that, "You work here or there."

Mr. JENNER. Did you experience any bitterness in being laid off at Convair?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Resentful?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. JENNER. What was your reaction?

Mr. OSWALD. My reaction since I have been laid off at Convair and when I was laid off at Convair I felt like it was the best thing that ever happened to me.

Mr. JENNER. When did that event take place?

Mr. OSWALD. In August, 1957, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Proceed with your recollection of your reply to this letter.

Mr. OSWALD. If I may, sir, continue to answer something along the question of how I felt or reacted to my layoff at Convair; the reason why I recall the date is because my daughter was born two or three days after I was laid off, and I knew I was going to be laid off before she was born and I did not tell my wife and I recall that quite vividly.

Thank you.

Mr. JENNER. I think I will ask you an additional question about that, if I may, please.

Mr. OSWALD. All right, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion, at least in Lee's presence, regarding your being laid off at Convair and your attitude with respect thereto.

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; none that I recall.

Mr. JENNER. And where was he--let's see, 1957, he was in the Marines then.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. I take it then sometime along the line you had advised him that you were no longer with Convair.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I feel certain like I did.

Mr. JENNER. Perhaps you wrote him to that effect or you told him about it when he was on leave in 1958.

Mr. OSWALD. I would feel like perhaps I wrote him about it.

Mr. JENNER. And to the best of your recollection did you indicate any resentment or bitterness in that regard?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. As I have never been resentful to that or bitter about it.

Mr. JENNER. So that at least, as far as you can recall, any statement you made or any attitude you have with respect to your layoff which might have come to his attention, did not form a basis for his predicating the Convair comment, on which he might have predicated the Convair comment, in his letter of November 26?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Proceed.

Mr. OSWALD. I also----

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, if I asked you a similar line of questions with respect to the union question would your answer be the same?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; It certainly would.

Mr. JENNER. You never expressed any dislike of unions. You never expressed to him, or in his presence, or members of your family, views that unions were exploited?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

By the way, had there been any discussion in the course of your youth, as you boys grew up, expressions in your family of any of these attitudes that he is expressing in his letter of November 8 and his letter of November 26?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. To my knowledge there was never any type of discussion that would reflect any of the statements or questions that he wrote in his letter of November 26, 1959.

Mr. JENNER. Would you say to the extent there were discussions among you, and your family life, that the contrary was expressed?

Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall any discussions, sir, but if there was any discussion it would have been to the contrary.

Mr. JENNER. Your family was always a typical, loyal American family?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. That is, loyal to the Government of the United States and you thought well of it?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. When I say, you, I mean all of the members of your family as far as you knew?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Proceed with your recollection of your response.

Mr. OSWALD. I refer to his statement in the letter of November 26 on the second page, "I can still see Japan and the Philippines and their puppet governments. More important, I can see the Americans in uniform, men who were there because they were drafted or because they were adventurers or unemployed in civilian life."

I referred to my own volunteering in the United States Marine Corps at that time, and I felt that nothing he pointed out there applied to my case, and I felt quite a few other men felt as I did, as to the reasons behind their joining the United States service.

Mr. JENNER. Had you expressed any dissatisfaction to him with your tour in the Marines, or was that subject discussed in family councils or visits on his part to Fort Worth?

Mr. McKENZIE. May I for just a moment?

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. OSWALD. Would you repeat the question, I believe I had it; I want to be sure of it.

(The question was read.)

Mr. OSWALD. I do not believe that at any time we discussed it. We might have mentioned my tour in the United States Marine Corps. He was very proud of my service record and it would so indicate that I conducted myself in the best tradition of the United States Marine Corps; not that I was any lily white, but I was never in any serious trouble and I progressed in rank in keeping with the period that I was in the United States Marine Corps.

Mr. JENNER. Had that thought been expressed, or at least that flavor left, with the members of your family?

Mr. OSWALD. I feel that it was, particularly to Lee, because I----

Mr. JENNER. Would you elaborate on that, please; we are interested in that.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. Because I feel very surely that the reason that Lee joined the United States Marine Corps was because of my service in the United States Marine Corps and he wanted to follow----

Mr. JENNER. And your reaction to it had been communicated by you to him?

Mr. OSWALD. I feel like it was, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Many witnesses have a habit that you have when you feel like it was. Do you mean that you actually conveyed that thought to him?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe I did, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. OSWALD. Thank you.

I believe I was stating that I believe that the reason that Lee joined the United States Marine Corps was to follow in my footsteps, in that same service, and frankly I believe that at that time in earlier years and later years that he looked up to me, not only in that respect, but that eventually he wanted to follow in my footsteps.

I would say within the family relation that Lee and I were closer than Lee and mother or Lee and John during our entire lifetime. That if there was something that he was going to discuss with anybody, or say to anybody, within the family I would be the one that he would discuss it with.

I refer to his statement on the second page of the letter of November 26, 1959, "I will ask you a question, Robert, what do you support the American government for? What is the ideal you put forward. Do not say freedom because freedom is a word used by all people through all of time."

I did refer to the word "freedom" and I recall stating to him that the word "freedom" to me was something that was earned and not handed down.

I refer to the third page of the letter of November 26, 1959, and the brief statement, "America is a dying country."

I replied to him that perhaps, and I believe some great man said this statement at one time or the other, I do not recall who, that we were a sleeping giant, and that we were coming awake.

This was, of course, in reference to the Communist world.

Mr. JENNER. This was something you said in your letter?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. DULLES. May I ask what is the date of this letter?

Mr. JENNER. It is in response to the letter of November 26.

Mr. DULLES. November 26, yes.

Mr. OSWALD. I refer to the bottom of the page of the letter of November 26, "So you speak of advantages. Do you think that is why I am here for personal material advantages, happiness is not based on oneself, it does not consist of a small home of taking and getting."

I recall my reply to this series of questions as being--as to having that right to seek for oneself his own personal desires to the extent that the material advantages were something of a secondary nature, and was something of a reward for his efforts.

Mr. JENNER. While the witness is looking further, Mr. Chairman, this is a little tedious, but as counsel for the Commission, I suggest its importance and relevancy in that, if nothing else, it serves to demonstrate the response of the witness to the letter indicating the attitude of the Oswald family on these subjects and isolating these views to Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. DULLES. I think this is important, and the more I hear of this letter the more I get the impression that there was some help given in writing this letter.

Mr. JENNER. That is why I am spending so much time on it.

Mr. DULLES. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. With apologies to you, Mr. McKenzie, that is the only way we can go at it because we don't have the actual response itself.

Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, I commend you on the way that you are conducting this interrogation.

Mr. JENNER. Thank you.

Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Oswald, under no circumstances speculate on what you wrote in answer to these letters. State to the best of your recollection only what you did write, if you recall.

If you can't recall tell Mr. Jenner so.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, this is what I have been doing, sir.

Mr. DULLES. In view of the importance of this letter of November 26 and certain other of these letters, as Chairman and in view of the absence of a number of my colleagues today for unavoidable reasons, I think it might be well to insert the entire letter in the record and possibly certain other letters on which you are going to interrogate the witness.

You see no objection?

Mr. McKENZIE. None whatsoever, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. DULLES. I have in mind that other members of the Commission may not be able to read all of the exhibits but I think they should read these letters on which we are interrogating the witness.

Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. In order to get the full purport, flavor of this particular line of interrogation.

Mr. McKENZIE. I couldn't concur more, Mr. Dulles.

Mr. DULLES. We will leave it then to your discretion with Mr. Rankin to decide what letters should go in, in connection with his testimony.

Mr. McKENZIE. I might add in that regard, Mr. Chairman, that I have no objection, whatsoever to any or all of the letters going into the record.

Mr. DULLES. Thank you.

Mr. JENNER. They are already in the record. But you mean set forth in full in the record.

Mr. McKENZIE. I would mark right now the spot in the record following the Chairman's remarks and my concurrence and, of course, Mr. Jenner's suggestion that the letter be in its entirety placed in the record, I would mark that place now so that it could go in at this spot.

Mr. JENNER. Also the letter of November 8. And November 26 letter.

Mr. JENNER. Proceed, Mr. Oswald.

Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall any other statements that I would have replied to, or did reply to, in my reply to his letter of November 26, 1959.

Mr. JENNER. All right, sir.

Now, did you receive any direct response to your letter, and your next letter is Commission Exhibit No. 296, sometime during the summer of 1959, it is a short one-page letter.

Mr. OSWALD. This is December, 1959, sir.

Mr. JENNER. No, it is in the summer of 1959, isn't it, or is that the one-page letter which you had written December 17, 1959.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And is that the next letter you received from your brother?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Is there any reference in that letter to the response you made to the November 26 letter?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. There is not.

Mr. JENNER. Did you receive any subsequent letter in which he made any direct response to your long letter which you wrote him in response to the letter of November 26?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, he did not, and if I might say I wrote earlier and as a reminder to myself that I was concerned at the time I received the letter of December 17, 1959.

Mr. JENNER. That is Commission Exhibit 297.

Mr. OSWALD. That Lee did not have time to receive my reply to his letter of November 26, 1959.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

Then the next letter you received, at least in the series you have produced, is May 5, 1961, a two-page letter, Commission Exhibit 298.

Mr. OSWALD. Could I have that date again, please, sir?

Mr. JENNER. May 5, 1961.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. He makes no response in that letter to your response to his letter of November 26.

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, he does not. Perhaps, sir, the only way that I can be aware that he received my letter in reply to November 26 letter, to his letter of November 26, 1959, I did enclose one photograph of my daughter Cathy Marie Oswald at the age of 2 years old in that letter.

Mr. JENNER. In your response to his letter of November 26?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; and at a later date Lee was to tell me that he did keep this photograph, so he did receive my letter.

Mr. JENNER. Would you repeat what you just said, sir, or would you read it, Mr. Reporter?

(The reporter read the answer.)

Mr. JENNER. You said Lee was to tell you, did you mean by that expression that he actually acknowledged receipt of the photograph?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, he did.

Mr. JENNER. Which leads you to believe necessarily then that he received your response to his letter of November 26.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did he state that he had received that photograph in a letter that he wrote you or was that orally after he returned to the United States?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe this was orally, sir.

Mr. JENNER. After he returned to the United States?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Now, returning to his short stay at Fort Worth upon his being discharged from the Marines, what do you recall, if anything, of any discussion respecting his financial status at that time, that is whether he was in funds and if so, what volume of funds.

Mr. OSWALD. I was not aware of his financial situation at that time.

Mr. JENNER. Was it discussed?

Mr. OSWALD. Not that I recall, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did any member of the family, during that period of time, ever discuss with you, having in turn discussed that subject matter with Lee?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, they did not.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have a conversation with your mother prior to November 22, 1963 respecting Lee's financial status at the period of time when he was immediately--right at the time he was discharged from the Marines?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. I do not remember one.

Mr. JENNER. So that up to November 22, 1963, there was never any discussion in which you participated or which you overheard on that subject?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Now, with respect to the remaining series of letters, were you ever advised while your brother Lee was in Russia how much money he was given or earned?

Mr. OSWALD. While he was----

Mr. JENNER. Or he received?

Mr. OSWALD. While he was in Russia employed?

Mr. JENNER. While he was in Russia.

Mr. OSWALD. While he was in Russia.

Mr. JENNER. Either from his employment or by gift.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; there is a reply in one of these letters that I received from Lee from Russia stating how much he was making while employed in Russia.

Mr. JENNER. The letter will, of course, be the best evidence of that. Did he say it in terms of dollars or in terms of rubles, what is your recollection?

Mr. OSWALD. In both, sir. I believe he stated it in the words rubles and in parentheses in the amount of American dollars.

Mr. JENNER. I see, we will find that out.

Mr. OSWALD. And I believe on a monthly basis.

Mr. JENNER. Did he ever write you as to whether he had received any money by way of gift from any agency in Russia?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, I respectfully submit that the letters themselves would be the best evidence.

Mr. JENNER. You are undoubtedly correct and I will desist.

Did you have any discussion with him on that subject after he returned from Russia?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not.

Mr. JENNER. Or on the subject of his earnings in Russia?

Mr. OSWALD. None that I recall, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you receive any packages or gifts from Russia while your brother was there?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. JENNER. What did you receive?

Mr. OSWALD. Well----

Mr. JENNER. And give the approximate times.

Mr. OSWALD. There again, sir, there is a letter from Lee in Russia stating that he had sent a gift or gifts to us at my residence in Fort Worth, Tex. I recall that on two occasions we received gifts from Russia at my address in Fort Worth, Tex. I believe the first one consisted of Russian cigarettes, Russian candy, six place mats or six napkins that Marina had embroidered herself.

Mr. McKENZIE. Or at least what they told you Marina had embroidered.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. And also a Russian wooden doll, the type that pops open in the middle and has a smaller doll on the inside and so forth down the line until you end up with one approximately an inch high from one originating from one six or seven inches high. That was the first package that I recall receiving from Lee and his wife while they were in Russia.

Mr. JENNER. Approximately when was that?

Mr. OSWALD. Prior to Christmas of 1961.

Mr. JENNER. There was a second occasion when you received a package?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. What was that?

Mr. OSWALD. This was closer to Christmas of 1961.

Mr. JENNER. And it contained what?

Mr. OSWALD. It contained one Russian children's book.

Mr. JENNER. In the Russian language or in English?

Mr. OSWALD. In the Russian language, sir, and going by the cover of the book and as you open the book in the center section, a Russian rocket ship would unfold and be standing in the launch position, and was quite evident by the pictures, at least in the book, that this was a book for Russian children depicting the Russian efforts toward their space program.

Mr. JENNER. Do you still have that book?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do. And there was also another children's book, and I believe this package only consisted of a present for Cathy Marie Oswald for Christmas, 1961 from her aunt and uncle, Lee and Marina.

Mr. JENNER. A child's gift?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, and the second book was a child's coloring book, a Russian coloring book.

Mr. JENNER. Does that exhaust your recollection as to gifts you received from them or from Lee while they were in Russia?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, it does.

Mr. JENNER. Did he ever send you a pair of boots?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, he did not. And I might add we also still have the child's coloring book that was received at that time for Christmas, 1961.

Mr. JENNER. All right, sir.

Now, would you please relate to us everything that your brother Lee told you about hunting in Russia?

Mr. McKENZIE. You mean other than in correspondence?

Mr. JENNER. I mean other than by the correspondence. I should precede that by the question did you have any conversation with him about hunting in Russia?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I did.

Mr. JENNER. And that occurred after he returned to the United States?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Fix the approximate date.

Mr. OSWALD. Approximately the latter part of June, 1962.

Mr. JENNER. While he was residing in your home?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. What did he say? Excuse me, this occurred in your home?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it did.

Mr. JENNER. Was anyone present other than yourself and your brother?

Mr. OSWALD. Perhaps Marina and my wife Vada. As I best remember the conversation, since our interest in hunting was mutual, that he had on two or three occasions gone bird hunting or duck hunting and that he had killed some birds and some ducks on two or three of these occasions that he had gone in, that he had only used a shotgun, that they were not allowed to have a rifle.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion of that subject matter on any other occasion prior to November 22, 1963?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe in his letters----

Mr. JENNER. No, discussions.

Mr. OSWALD. Pardon me, no, sir; there was not, not that I recall.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have any discussion with him during the period from his return in June of 1962 up to November 22, 1963, of his membership in a gun club while he was in Russia?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. Did any discussion occur between you as to his membership in any other group while he was in Russia, whether it was a gun club, a social club, a labor union or otherwise?

Mr. OSWALD. None that I recall, sir.

Mr. JENNER. In one of the letters, your brother Lee asked you whether, to check to see if, the United States had any, lodged any charges against him.

Do you recall that?

Mr. OSWALD. Briefly, yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. What did you do when he made that request to you, if any?

Mr. OSWALD. I recall replying to his letter and stated that to my knowledge, and I could see no reason why they would have any charges against him for going to Russia, because he was an American citizen, and he was free to do as he chooses as long as it was not harmful to the United States Government and I didn't feel like he had done anything harmful to the United States Government by going to Russia.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever write in any of the letters that you wrote him, did you raise the question with him of whether he had in fact renounced or attempted to renounce his United States citizenship?

Mr. OSWALD. I was advised that, at the time, that we became aware that Lee was in Russia by newspaper correspondents in Fort Worth, Tex., that the United States Embassy acting on their own accord, would not allow him to sign any final papers denouncing his United States citizenship. Whether he wanted to or not they were attempting to prevent him from doing this. I never did hear any more about that. Perhaps during the correspondence or on his return from Russia, this was certainly evident that he had not signed any final papers denouncing his United States citizenship.

Mr. JENNER. I take it from your response, sir, that you did not raise that matter with him in any letters that you wrote to him?

Mr. OSWALD. Not to my recollection, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have any discussion with him on the subject on his return to the United States?

Mr. OSWALD. Possibly so, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall that distinctly at the moment?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I do not.

Mr. JENNER. Did your brother Lee raise again with you, following your response to his request that you investigate whether or not there were any other charges against him; did he raise again with you the question of whether you had made an investigation, whether there were charges?

Mr. McKENZIE. When you say did he raise again----

Mr. JENNER. At any time subsequent thereto, that is apart from the correspondence which has been introduced in evidence.

Mr. McKENZIE. There are several instances in the correspondence, Mr. Jenner, there are questions raised about this.

Are you talking about after he returned from--to the United States from the Soviet Union?

Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir; I am at the moment.

Mr. McKENZIE. All right.

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not to my recollection.

Mr. JENNER. When he returned to the United States and while he was living with you, was there or were there any occasions in which there was discussion of his trip back from Russia and the course they took in returning to the United States, the means and manner of return?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; there was.

Mr. JENNER. Give us your recollection of what that discussion was and what your brother and/or Marina said to you and your wife Vada or either of them?

Mr. OSWALD. I recall asking him how his trip was from Russia to New York City by boat. I asked him what route they had traveled, and he advised me then, that is as I believe he advised me in one of his letters, the first one, was to go from Minsk to Moscow and then from Moscow to Holland, I believe, to board a ship that touched at England, and from England to New York City.

Mr. JENNER. Did he or they----

Mr. OSWALD. He.

Mr. JENNER. This is a conversation with him?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have any conversation with Marina on this subject or in her presence?

Mr. OSWALD. Not that I recall, no, sir.

Mr. JENNER. But he did state specifically that they had gone to Moscow?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And from Moscow to where?

Mr. OSWALD. To Holland, if my memory serves me correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did he say, did he indicate, how they had traveled from Moscow to Holland, by what means of conveyance?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, he did not.

Mr. JENNER. Was anything said about how long they stayed in Moscow before they took off for Holland?

Mr. OSWALD. In this discussion, I do not recall that he did, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And did he say how long they stayed in Holland, if they stayed there at all?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, he did not.

Mr. JENNER. But you do recall his stating specifically they touched England in the sense that the ship----

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; for supplies or for some other reason, it appeared not to be, I say appeared, I assume it was not a very long stay there and that they did not leave the ship.

Mr. JENNER. He did state that they did not leave the ship at that point?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; this is an assumption on my part--the way he put it to me.

Mr. JENNER. And they proceeded from there directly to New York Harbor, New York City.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. By what means? And he did report that to you?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did this series of letters you received in the early portion, period of his stay in Russia excite your suspicions as to whether he was or might be a Russian agent?

Mr. OSWALD. If I understand the question correctly this was the early stay of his in Russia in 1959?

Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir, 1959 and let us say to the early part of 1961.

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have any occasion to discuss that subject during this period of time with your mother or she with you?

Mr. OSWALD. Prior to his return in 1961 she did discuss this with me.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Where did this discussion take place?

Mr. OSWALD. If I may fix the date approximately, sir, if you could give me the date of her trip to Washington, D.C.

Mr. JENNER. You have me at a disadvantage because Mr. Liebeler has been called out and he can furnish that. I don't want to guess at it.

Mr. McKENZIE. May I then ask if possibly the Chairman might recall?

Mr. DULLES. The date of that visit to Washington?

Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. No, I don't think I do.

Mr. McKENZIE. Possibly Mr. Rankin might know.

Mr. JENNER. Our information was that that was January 26, 1961.

Mr. OSWALD. Thank you, sir. If I may have, the question again, please.

(The question was read by the reporter.)

Mr. JENNER. Whether the suspicions, on the part of yourself or your mother, were that your brother was or might be an agent for the Russian Government.

Mr. OSWALD. Pardon me, sir, I believe I misunderstood. I thought it was in reference to whether or not Lee might have been an agent of the United States Government.

Mr. JENNER. No. It was the Russian Government I asked about.

Mr. OSWALD. I am sorry, sir. At no time was any discussion that I have been into indicated that in any way.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you have referred then to, or had in mind, a conversation with your mother as to whether your brother was an agent of the United States Government.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And are you able to fix the time of that discussion now having been supplied with the date when your mother visited Washington?

Mr. OSWALD. Approximately the spring of 1961.

Mr. JENNER. Several months following her visit to Washington in January, 1961.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Where did that discussion take place?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe this was a telephone conversation, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you call her or did she call you?

Mr. OSWALD. She called me, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And you recognized her voice, did you?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I did.

Mr. JENNER. What did she say on the subject?

Mr. OSWALD. That she told me briefly about her trip to Washington, and that she, as she put it, had seen various important people, and that she was reaching or coming to the conclusion that Lee was an agent of one sort or another for the United States Government.

Mr. JENNER. Did you respond to that?

Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall, sir, that I did; if so, what my response might have been.

Mr. JENNER. You don't recall whether you responded, and if you did, you don't recall your response?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right, have you given us now all your conversations you had with your mother on the subject of whether your brother, that is up to November 22, 1963, as to whether your brother was or might have been an agent of the Government of the United States or an agent of any other government including that of Russia?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. As you received these letters, particularly the series of letters in 1961, up to the first of January, 1962, did there occur to you the thought that your brother was or might be an agent of the Russian Government?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it most certainly did not.

Mr. JENNER. And at any time thereafter up to November 22, 1963?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it has not.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have any contact with the State Department or did the State Department have any contact with you at any time while your brother was in Russia?

Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, I believe the record will show there was a previous telegram to Mr. Christian Herter who was Secretary of State at the time.

Mr. JENNER. Other than the telegram you testified about yesterday.

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have any conversations with your mother respecting her contacts, if any, with the State Department during the period of time your brother was in Russia?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not.

Mr. JENNER. Did you at any time prior to November 22, 1963, no, I will include that date, let's say at any time prior to December 1, 1963, have any view or suspicion that Marina Oswald was or might have been an agent of the Russian Government?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. In the letter of July 14, 1961, being Commission Exhibit 301, your brother expresses or states, makes some derogatory comments respecting Russia. Is that the first information or knowledge that you had of any change of attitude on his part?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, it was not.

Mr. JENNER. Indicate the prior event that gave you some suspicion in that connection.

Mr. OSWALD. If I understand it correctly, sir, whether or not had I had any prior indication prior to receiving the letter of July 14, 1961, that Lee was becoming----

Mr. JENNER. Disenchanted.

Mr. OSWALD. Disenchanted with the Russian way of life?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. OSWALD. When I received his first letter from Russia after a year or so of silence----

Mr. JENNER. Give the date of the letter.

There is a break between December 17, 1959 and May 5, 1961.

Is it the letter of May 5 of 1961?

Mr. OSWALD. I am referring to the letter of May 5, 1961.

Mr. JENNER. All right. It is Commission Exhibit 299.

Mr. OSWALD. It indicated to me, whether it so states in there or not, because he did start writing again that he was in fact disenchanted with the Russian way of life.

Mr. JENNER. This is the first letter you received after Lee had gone to Minsk, is it not?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And it is the first letter you received following the undated letter of, in December, 1959, but that you have noted was received on the 17th of December, 1959.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. I take it then the subsequent letters heightened your impression of suspicion that he was becoming--either was completely or was becoming, disenchanted with Russia.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, in his letter it certainly doesn't indicate that he was, but it was my opinion at that time and still is that he was then----

Mr. JENNER. After you had read that letter, meaning the letter of May 5, 1961, which is Commission Exhibit 299, you felt that, or you had the reaction that, he was becoming disenchanted with Russia?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And that was later confirmed by subsequent letters in which he expressly stated----

Mr. McKENZIE. Disenchantment.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. JENNER. There appears to be on some of the envelopes now in evidence some stamps. They are in Russian but they may indicate that they are stamps placed upon those envelopes by a censor, and we will now undertake to investigate that circumstance.

Mr. McKENZIE. Would you like for me to tell you which ones?

Mr. JENNER. If you will give me the dates I will recite the exhibit numbers.

Mr. McKENZIE. It is June 26, 1961.

Mr. JENNER. That is Commission Exhibit No. 300.

Mr. McKENZIE. August 21, 1961.

Mr. JENNER. Is the envelope dated August 21?

Mr. McKENZIE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Would you see if that contains a one-page letter; oh, yes, August 21, that is Commission Exhibit No. 303.

You need not do it.

Mr. McKENZIE. And September 10, 1961.

Mr. JENNER. That is Commission Exhibit No. 305.

Mr. McKENZIE. And I call the Commission's attention particularly to the word stamped on the envelope "recommende" for whatever it means.

Mr. DULLES. That is French.

Mr. JENNER. Would you please relate, Mr. Oswald, Marina's ability to speak or understand English at the time that she and your brother returned from Russia in June of 1962?

Mr. OSWALD. Her ability to understand was far less than her ability to speak English words. I spoke to her on the telephone the night of June 13, 1962 from New York City, to my residence in Fort Worth, Tex., and her statement to me at that time was, "Hello, Robert." I replied but no answer, and Lee took the telephone over again.

Mr. JENNER. During the month they lived in your home, were you better able to form an opinion as to her ability to speak and understand English?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe the best way to establish the degree of what she understood in English at that time and her ability to speak the English language would be very, very, very small, if anything at all.

Mr. JENNER. As to her facility in that regard--did her facility in that regard become better as the months and years wore on?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion which you overheard or with you, respecting her undertaking to study, learn to speak, English?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; she most certainly wanted to learn to speak English at the time, and she was staying at my home in Fort Worth, Tex., and prior to their departure from Fort Worth, Tex., to Dallas, Tex., in the winter of 1962.

Mr. JENNER. What was your brother's attitude with respect to her desires in that respect?

Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall him stating his desires in that respect either pro or con.

Mr. JENNER. You have no impressions on the subject either way?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. I might have an impression, pardon me, that he wanted her particularly at the time we were staying, they were staying at my home in Fort Worth, Tex., to learn English.

Mr. JENNER. That was expressed in your presence during that period of time by him?

Mr. OSWALD. Not in so many words, sir. It was perhaps implied, and he left me with the impression that he wanted her to learn English at that time or as soon as she possibly could, and I might add that on a number of occasions during the visit at my home in Fort Worth, Tex., that my daughter Cathy, with her childhood language in 1961, which would establish her age at 4 years old, would talk to her and it appeared that she would gather more English from Cathy than she would the adults in the family.

Mr. JENNER. Did the State Department or any agency of the United States, get in touch with you with respect to your supplying funds or the possibility of your supplying funds to your brother while he was still in Russia for the purpose of financing his return to the United States?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; they did not.

Mr. JENNER. Did any agency of the United States or any public body located in New York City get in touch with you with respect to supplying him funds for his transportation from New York City to Fort Worth?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, they did.

Mr. JENNER. Was that the initial request or knowledge to you that you received that funds were necessary, or would be needed for that purpose?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Do you remember the name of the agency? Was it the one that you identified yesterday?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, it was.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

In his letter of November 30, 1961, he makes a request for a football.

Did you send the football to him?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not.

Mr. JENNER. In the letter of December 14, 1961, which is Commission Exhibit No. 311, he makes a reference to the fact that he had not received any letter with "certain" questions. Apparently questions that you had put to him.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have that letter?

Mr. OSWALD. The letter of July 14?

Mr. JENNER. No, this is December 14.

Mr. OSWALD. Pardon me.

Mr. JENNER. That is Commission Exhibit 311. It is two pages.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I have the letter.

Mr. JENNER. Does that refresh your recollection as to some letter you had written him prior thereto?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I do.

Mr. JENNER. Will you state what the letter was and whether it was in response to an earlier letter?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, it was not in response--it was a response to an earlier letter from Lee. I did in an effort to determine whether or not all my letters----

Mr. JENNER. The last prior letter was the letter of November 30, 1961, Commission Exhibit 308, and then immediately prior to that was the letter of November 1, 1961, Commission Exhibit 309.

Mr. OSWALD. In reference to the question regarding that letter of December 14, 1961, at which time he stated "I did not receive any letter with 'certain' questions."

I did write him a letter at which time I recall raising two political type questions to see whether or not he would receive----

Mr. JENNER. He would respond?

Mr. OSWALD. Sir?

Mr. JENNER. To see whether he would respond, did you say?

Mr. OSWALD. To see whether or not he would receive the letter itself.

Mr. JENNER. I am sorry, I thought you said to receive.

Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir; if my memory serves me correct in some earlier letters he refers there to some Russian censors he felt like were censoring his mail and my mail also and I wanted to find out in my own way whether this was so or not.

I might say that was the only time I attempted to raise any type of political questions in my response to any of his letters or any other letters that I sent him, because I did want the letters to go through rather than be destroyed or not received by him.

Mr. JENNER. We can draw our own inference as to whether he received your letter.

Was there any discussion of the subject after return to the United States, that is, the subject whether he had received your letter?

Mr. OSWALD. Not to my recollection, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have any discussion with your brother on the subject of his undesirable discharge after he returned to the United States?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. JENNER. And when was that? Was it more than one occasion?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, only on one occasion did we discuss that matter.

Mr. JENNER. When was that? Where was it?

Mr. OSWALD. Approximately June 1962 at my home in Fort Worth, Tex.

Mr. JENNER. Who was present?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe just Lee and I were present in this one room which was the living room of our home.

Mr. JENNER. In your home?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. What did he say?

Mr. OSWALD. He said he wanted to go down the next day to the Marine Corps office in Fort Worth, Tex., and discuss with them and perhaps find out what action he needed to take to have this corrected to an honorable discharge.

Mr. JENNER. What did you say?

Mr. OSWALD. My reply to him on that was that I thought that that was a good idea and that he might raise the question at the Marine Corps office in Fort Worth, Tex., if I could be of some assistance in writing the Marine Corps office directly on behalf of him. I do not recall if he made this trip to the Marine Corps office. I do not recall any further conversation in reference to his dishonorable discharge.

Mr. JENNER. Would you turn your attention now to the letter of May 22, 1962, shortly before he returned to the United States?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Commission Exhibit 318.

As I recall that letter, he refers to some things that you had said when he departed for Russia. Do you find that portion of the letter?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. JENNER. Would you read it aloud, please, just that portion?

Mr. McKENZIE. May I interrupt you at this point, Mr. Jenner?

Please, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. DULLES. Certainly, proceed.

Mr. McKENZIE. The two letters of November 8 and November 26 which we should make copies of for the purposes of the record, if you will pull them out of your file there I will--do you want to take the originals?

Mr. JENNER. That will be the best way of doing it.

Mr. McKENZIE. Except that yours are already marked with the exhibit number. I have no objection.

I will find out who I should see about making these.

Mr. JENNER. Why do you not make them on the Xerox machine?

I had asked you to read that portion of the letter so we can place the matter in context.

Mr. OSWALD. "I know what was said about me when I left the United States as Mother sent me clippings from the newspapers. However, I realize it was just the shock of the news which made you say all those things. However, I will just remind you again not to make any statement or comments if you are approached by the newspapers between now and the time we actually arrive in the United States."

Mr. JENNER. Is he referring then to things that were reported in the newspaper clippings that you said or is he referring to something you said to him before he departed for Russia, or is he referring to something you said in a letter you may have written him when he was in Russia?

Mr. OSWALD. He is referring, sir, to the clippings of newspapers that mother had sent him containing reportedly my statements to the newspapers at the time we were advised on October 31, 1959 that Lee was in Russia.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have occasion to make any comments to newspaper reporters when it became known that he was about to return to the United States?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. JENNER. And did those come to your brother's attention?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; they did not.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever discuss them or he with you?

Mr. OSWALD. When the newspaper reporters contacted me prior to his arrival in New York City, I did not divulge my knowledge of his departure as per this letter of May 22, 1962, the approximate date he would be in the United States. I did not give them any indication whatsoever at that time that he was leaving the Soviet Union.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever respond to that particular letter?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. DULLES. May I ask a question here?

You indicated that your brother was disappointed when he arrived at Love Airfield and the newspapermen were not there when he came back from Russia.

Did the newspapermen thereafter talk with your brother at your house or elsewhere?

Mr. OSWALD. They attempted to, sir. I say "they." It was, more specifically, one newspaperman.

Mr. JENNER. But he did not succeed in getting an interview?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Reference is made in your brother's letter to you of November 17, 1962, which is Commission Exhibit 320, to Thanksgiving dinner. Would you obtain that exhibit, please?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have it.

Mr. DULLES. What Thanksgiving, 1962?

Mr. JENNER. 1962, sir.

Was the Thanksgiving dinner held at your home on Thanksgiving Day, November 1962?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Would you tell us all of the circumstances preceding, leading up to and what occurred on that date and who attended the Thanksgiving dinner?

Mr. OSWALD. Lee and Marina and their small child had moved to Dallas, Tex.

Mr. JENNER. Where in Dallas, Tex.? Do you recall?

Mr. OSWALD. I did not have any address, sir. I had only a post office box, Box 2915, Dallas, Tex.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. OSWALD. My older brother John had called me from San Antonio, Tex., prior to Thanksgiving 1962, indicating that he was going to be able to take a leave----

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, Mr. Oswald.

Mr. Chairman, there is some confusion respecting this Thanksgiving dinner.

Mr. OSWALD. Where John was stationed in the Air Force--he called me from San Antonio stating that he would be able to take a leave during the period of Thanksgiving of November 1962 and that they would travel from San Antonio, Tex., to my home in Fort Worth, Tex. I wrote Lee and asked him would it be possible for him to join us at that time with his family.

Mr. JENNER. Did you indicate in your letter that his brother John and wife were to join you on that occasion?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. JENNER. Did you indicate that anyone in addition, to wit, your mother, was also to join you on that occasion?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. OSWALD. In reference to the letter dated November 17, 1962, from Lee Harvey Oswald----

Mr. JENNER. That is Commission Exhibit 320.

Mr. OSWALD. It replied to my letter: "In answer to your kind invitation for Thanksgiving, we love to come and will be in Fort Worth Thanksgiving morning and we shall come by bus and give you a ring on the phone from the bus station (about 9:10). See you soon. Lee."

Mr. JENNER. Did he come to Fort Worth?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. For that particular occasion?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. When did he arrive?

Mr. OSWALD. Approximately nine to ten o'clock in the morning.

Mr. JENNER. Of Thanksgiving Day?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Was he accompanied by anyone?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he was.

Mr. JENNER. Who?

Mr. OSWALD. Marina N. Oswald and the baby June Lee Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. Did all of you have Thanksgiving dinner on that day?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; we did.

Mr. JENNER. Did both Lee and Marina attend that dinner?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; they did.

Mr. JENNER. And John Pic and his wife?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; they did.

Mr. JENNER. You and your wife?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Your children?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. The children of Lee and Marina?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. McKENZIE. The child. There was only one at that time.

Mr. JENNER. That is right, the child June. Anyone else?

Mr. OSWALD. The children of John and Marge Pic.

Mr. JENNER. But your mother did not attend the dinner?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Had you invited her?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had not.

Mr. JENNER. As far as you know, she was unaware of it?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Was any comment made that she was not present, about the fact that she was not present at the dinner?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; there was not.

Mr. JENNER. Was anything said about what your brother Lee was doing by way of employment in Dallas?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; there was.

Mr. JENNER. What was said, and by whom?

Mr. OSWALD. I feel like I had asked Lee what he was doing at that particular time, and his reply to me was that he was working for a traffic outfit in Dallas, the name of which I do not recall. However, he did state the name of the firm. I do not recall the name of the firm. And that it was to him very interesting work. He thought that he could perhaps learn this type of work and progress in it quite ably.

Mr. DULLES. How did he appear to you mentally and physically on this occasion of the Thanksgiving dinner?

Mr. OSWALD. Very fit physically and very alert mentally.

Mr. JENNER. Discussion on that day occurred between you and your half-brother, John Pic, did it not, respecting your brother Lee's un-American beliefs?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it did.

Mr. JENNER. Would you relate that discussion between yourself--was it confined to a discussion between yourself and John Pic?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it was.

Mr. JENNER. Did you raise the subject?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe I did, sir.

Mr. JENNER. You were concerned about his un-American beliefs, were you not?

Mr. OSWALD. I was not concerned about them. I wanted to state to John, since he had not been in contact with Lee when Lee was in Russia, or when he was at my home in Fort Worth, that this conversation took place.

Mr. JENNER. You state it.

Mr. DULLES. Was John present?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. He was present.

Mr. McKENZIE. It was to John.

Mr. DULLES. Was he present?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he was not. I was about to say that this conversation took place on our way from my house to the bus station to pick up Lee, Marina and June the morning of Thanksgiving 1962. I do not recall the circumstances preceding this particular point of why I brought it up other than I do recall mentioning that the FBI had talked to Lee and apparently that everything was all right because they were not proceeding to discuss with him at any length and they were not holding him for any reason, so I assumed that everything was all right in that respect.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

Have you exhausted your present recollection of that conversation?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have.

Mr. DULLES. How did you know that the FBI had talked with Lee?

Mr. OSWALD. Lee had told me and I was aware that they had called my house and requested Lee to come down to their office in Fort Worth and talk with them.

Mr. DULLES. Did he report to you on that conversation at all? The details of it?

Mr. OSWALD. A very small detail of it, sir.

Mr. JENNER. What details?

Mr. OSWALD. I asked him when I returned home from work that afternoon how did it go. He said, "Just fine." He said they asked him at the last whether or not he was an agent for the United States Government. His reply was "Don't you know?"

Mr. JENNER. You recited that yesterday.

Mr. McKENZIE. This was testified to yesterday. It is repetition.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you at that time say to John that the FBI had--excuse me--had assured you that Lee was all right and not dangerous to our country?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had not.

Mr. JENNER. Did you say to John on that occasion or any other occasion that he need not worry about Lee in connection with possible danger to our country?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. JENNER. When was that?

Mr. OSWALD. This was on the same occasion on the trip to the bus station as I have so indicated, that I had assumed, since they were not holding Lee or questioning him to any frequency, because at that time they had only questioned him to my knowledge one time, that everything as far as un-American views that he expressed when he went to Russia, everything was cleared and they had no reason to hold him or suspect him of anything.

Mr. DULLES. Did you know about the Fair Play for Cuba incident in New Orleans at this time?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. Did your brother Lee and Marina leave your home after Thanksgiving dinner?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; they did.

Mr. JENNER. That same day?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have occasion to see your brother at any time from that moment when he departed until sometime on the 22d of November 1963?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, may I interrupt you one more time?

In response to your question, Mr. Chairman, it is my best recollection, and I may be wrong and stand to be corrected if I am wrong, that the Fair Play for Cuba or the pro-Castro leaflets that he was handing out in New Orleans was in the summer of 1963.

Mr. DULLES. I think you may be right.

Do you remember that?

Mr. JENNER. Yes, that is correct.

Mr. DULLES. That is correct. It had not taken place.

Mr. McKENZIE. It had not taken place in November of 1962.

Mr. DULLES. Right.

Mr. McKENZIE. To the best of our knowledge.

Mr. JENNER. Did the witness have any opportunity to respond to my last question?

Mr. McKENZIE. You had finished your question and I interrupted you before you could make another question.

Mr. JENNER. You mean the witness had responded to it?

Mr. DULLES. No; I do not think he had.

Mr. JENNER. Would you read the pending question?

(The last question was read by the reporter.)

Mr. JENNER. Did you see Marina at any time subsequent to their departure on Thanksgiving Day, November 1962 and November 22, 1963?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had not.

Mr. DULLES. Did you have any telephone conversations with either of them?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I had.

Mr. JENNER. In the interim period?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I had.

Mr. JENNER. Were there a number of those or were they infrequent?

Mr. OSWALD. I recall only one, sir.

Mr. JENNER. When did that take place?

Mr. OSWALD. Approximately two or three weeks after Thanksgiving of 1962.

Mr. JENNER. That would be sometime then in December of 1962?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you call him or did he call you?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he called me.

Mr. JENNER. You recognized his voice?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And was it day or night?

Mr. OSWALD. It was, I believe it was Sunday afternoon, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Sunday afternoon. And what was the occasion of his making that call as you recall it?

Mr. OSWALD. That he was in town briefly.

Mr. JENNER. In Fort Worth?

Mr. OSWALD. In Fort Worth, Tex., and that I asked would we see him; he said no, they were visiting some friends.

Mr. JENNER. "They" meaning he and Marina?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, and that they would be leaving for Dallas very shortly.

Mr. JENNER. That was a social call?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. You have given the full of the conversation?

Mr. OSWALD. To the best of my remembrance; yes, sir. It was very short.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have occasion to talk to Marina over the telephone on that particular time?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. Did he talk with any other member of your family on that occasion?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not.

Mr. JENNER. Other than that telephone conversation, had you had any other conversation with your brother Lee from the time on Thanksgiving Day, November 1962 to the time you saw him on November 22, 1963?

Mr. OSWALD. I did not see him on November----

Mr. McKENZIE. He did not see him on that day.

Mr. OSWALD. On November 22, 1963.

Mr. McKENZIE. He saw him on November 23, 1963.

Mr. JENNER. Then my question is November 23.

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had not had any conversation with him after November 1962, Thanksgiving Day, other than the one I have mentioned, up to the time of November 22, 1963.

Mr. DULLES. Did you make any attempts to get in touch with him in that period?

Mr. OSWALD. Only through the mail, sir.

Mr. JENNER. I was about to come to that.

Did you have any correspondence with him in the sense of your dispatching a letter or note or he dispatching one to you?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. JENNER. Did you retain the correspondence insofar as anything you received from him is concerned?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. McKENZIE. And that has previously been furnished to the Commission.

Mr. JENNER. It has previously been furnished and it is, I see, a postcard which is dated as I recall--you give the date.

Mr. OSWALD. We are still referring to the period after November 1962, Thanksgiving Day?

Mr. JENNER. Yes, we are.

Mr. OSWALD. All right, sir.

One postcard dated January 10, 1963.

Mr. JENNER. And that is Commission Exhibit 324.

Did you receive any other correspondence?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. JENNER. And do you have it there?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. JENNER. And it is a letter dated?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. What date?

Mr. OSWALD. March 16, 1963.

Mr. JENNER. And that is Commission Exhibit 322.

Did you receive any other correspondence from him?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not.

Mr. JENNER. Did you dispatch any to him?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I had.

Mr. JENNER. Did they have any relation to either of the exhibits you have now identified?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; they did not.

Mr. JENNER. That is, neither Exhibit 322 nor Exhibit 324 was in response to any communication that you had dispatched to him?

Mr. OSWALD. Pardon me, sir, I was incorrect on that.

The letter of March 16, 1963 was in response to a letter I had written him approximately the first week of March 1963.

Mr. JENNER. Did you retain a copy of the letter you sent him? And if you made one, did you retain a copy?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; no copy was made and I did not retain it.

Mr. JENNER. Would you state the contents of your letter?

Mr. OSWALD. It was, briefly, sir, that we had moved to Malvern, Ark. I informed him of my new address and advised him that I had placed my home in Fort Worth, Tex., up for sale, and I had been given an opportunity by the company for a better and higher position, and that I had taken this opportunity and moved to Malvern, Ark. and requested, if possible, we would like to have them visit us.

Mr. DULLES. When did you move to Malvern, approximately?

Mr. OSWALD. The fifth day of March 1963, sir.

Mr. DULLES. And how long were you there?

Mr. OSWALD. To September 13, 1963, sir.

Mr. DULLES. And then you returned to----

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. Then I moved to Denton, Tex.

Mr. DULLES. Denton, Tex.?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. So that at the time of the event, November 22, 1963, you were residing in Malvern, Tex.?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I was residing in Denton, Tex.

Mr. JENNER. I should have said Malvern, Ark., anyhow.

Mr. DULLES. Let's see, you were then in Malvern, Ark., from March 1963, to approximately September 1963?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. That is where I misunderstood. I thought he said December.

All right, sir. I take it then at least from Thanksgiving Day, 1962, and the 23d day of November, 1963, you never had any discussions with Robert with respect to his desire, if any, to return to Russia, with Lee rather?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have any discussion with him on that subject?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have any discussion with him or he with you or with Marina or she with you on her return to Russia, whether he desired it or she did?

Mr. OSWALD. During that period?

Mr. JENNER. Prior to November 23, 1963.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. When did that discussion that you now have in mind take place?

Mr. OSWALD. At my home in June of 1962, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Who was present?

Mr. OSWALD. My wife Vada and Lee.

Mr. JENNER. With Marina I take it?

Mr. OSWALD. And Marina was there.

Yes, sir; I was having a conversation or she was having something of a conversation with me.

Mr. JENNER. Before you give the conversation, was there ever any other occasion up to and including November 23, 1963 when you had a discussion with your brother or with Marina respecting the return of either of them to Russia?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I only recall this one occasion.

Mr. JENNER. State what was said, please, and by whom.

Mr. OSWALD. This was said by Marina Oswald in June of 1962 in very broken English: "I never want to go to Russia again."

Mr. JENNER. Return to Russia?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And that was said in the presence of your brother Lee, your presence and your wife's presence?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I feel certain that all four of us were present.

Mr. JENNER. Did your brother say anything on that occasion?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. As to that subject matter?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. This took place in your home? How long after they had returned from Russia did this conversation take place?

Mr. McKENZIE. What was that question?

Mr. OSWALD. I would say 1 or 2 weeks.

Mr. JENNER. One or two weeks after they had returned from Russia?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. That is when they were staying with you after their return?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. At any time prior to November 23, 1962, were you aware or did any incident arise or conversation take place indicating any desire on your brother Lee's part to go to Cuba?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it did not.

Mr. JENNER. Or to Mexico?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it did not.

Mr. JENNER. Or any other country than the United States?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; there was not.

Mr. DULLES. Was there any particular reason why you did not have some contact with Lee during the period November, Thanksgiving 1962, and your departure for Arkansas in March of 1963?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; none that I was aware of. I did write him on two or three occasions asking him to advise me of his address in Dallas, Tex., so when I had an opportunity either on business or otherwise passing through where I could possibly stop and see him, if not Marina and the child.

His response to this was as it is stated in the letter of March 17, 1963, that generally he was moving and it was not settled and he would always retain the post office box in Dallas, Tex., where I might reach him through the mail and that I would not be able to see him or his family when I came through town.

Mr. DULLES. Did that surprise you?

Mr. OSWALD. It did not at first, sir, because I realized he was not settled as to a stable job and to an apartment. However, it did concern me later, and I refer to my letter that I wrote him in March of 1963 which he replied to on March 17 or March 16, 1963.

Mr. JENNER. Which is Commission Exhibit 322.

Mr. OSWALD. That I would like to have an address other than a post office box, and when again he did not furnish me this information, I did not respond to his letter of March 17, 1963. The last time I wrote him was in September 1963 when I returned to Texas and our moving into Denton, Tex., advising him of my new address, and still at that time requesting again an address where they were staying at in Dallas so that I might contact him, since again we were close together, approximately 30 miles away.

Mr. JENNER. And he did not respond to that?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he never responded to that letter that I wrote him in September other than on the day that I visited him at Dallas County Jail or Dallas City Jail on November 23, 1963, he did say before I had an opportunity to say anything to him, "Robert, you now are living in Denton, aren't you?" And I said yes.

In other words, he had received my letter of September 1963.

Mr. JENNER. This was elicited by Mr. Dulles' question, his failure to advise you in due course eventually here as late as September 1963 of his location in Dallas aroused some suspicions, doubts or a question in your mind?

Mr. OSWALD. It did to this extent, that I thought perhaps----

Mr. JENNER. Keep in mind all this history also, Mr. Oswald.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. That you testified about.

Mr. OSWALD. That perhaps he was angry at us or did not want to have anything to do with us. However, it was also my thinking on this that this would be out of character for him because he normally would keep in contact with me and let me have his address and so forth, even though he had furnished a post office box at first and which I understood, but his failure to give me an address indicated----

Mr. JENNER. Despite your at least two requests?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Or three requests?

Mr. OSWALD. Indicated to me that perhaps something of a different nature was going on that I was not aware of, whether he was having trouble with Marina and perhaps the baby, and they were not getting along and he did not want me to become aware of this situation; this would be my only speculation on that, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Did your wife have any contact with Marina over this period we are discussing from Thanksgiving of 1962 to November 1963?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she did not.

Mr. JENNER. Did she ever indicate to you that she made any effort to effect a contact with Marina?

Mr. OSWALD. Did my wife?

No, sir; she did not.

Mr. JENNER. In the light, Mr. Oswald, of the fact that your brother, as you testified, you thought looked up to you in his youth at least, in the light of his departure for Russia, in the light of the correspondence that you had with him in Russia about which you have testified, in the light of the conversations that you had with him upon his return, did not the fact that you did not hear from him for as long a period as from Thanksgiving Day of 1962 to well into the fall of 1963 raise any question in your mind beyond that which you have now testified about?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. That it might be something other than possible marital difficulties?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

Of course, I refer to the postcard of January 10, 1963, and the letter of March 17, 1963, which I would state other than the fact that he did not advise me of his residence in Dallas, Tex.----

Mr. JENNER. Despite the fact that you requested it?

Mr. OSWALD. Right, that the infrequency of the mail at this time was going back to prior to the time that he was in Russia, to the extent that he was not writing frequently then when he was in the service and so forth, and then again I thought that he was returning to this, because I was also not writing him as frequently as we had while he was in Russia. And it is my opinion, sir, that Lee felt that he had caused me enough difficulty, that he did not want to in any way, even though I had offered my assistance after his return from Russia, in any way that I possibly could, that he did not want to burden me in case he was in any financial difficulty or any other difficulty.

Mr. JENNER. All right, thank you.

I am going to attempt to cover in general terms, Mr. Chairman, Representative Ford's questions and see if I can shorten up the examination in that respect.

Mr. DULLES. Could I have just a word with you for just a moment.

(Short recess.)

Mr. JENNER. You are acquainted at least by hearsay at the moment, are you not, with respect to an alleged attack having been made by your brother upon General Walker?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I am.

Mr. JENNER. It is that to which I wish to direct a question.

Did you have any knowledge or information of any kind or character at any time prior to November 24, 1963, of that incident?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. No one had spoken to you about it?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; they had not.

Mr. JENNER. When did it first come to your attention?

Mr. OSWALD. In the newspaper. I believe this to be sometime in the latter part of December 1963 or January 1964.

Mr. JENNER. It was subsequent to your brother's death?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And you had no information direct or indirect of any kind or character, scuttlebutt, hearsay or otherwise, up to that moment?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Did you know of any acts of violence that your brother had carried out or had contemplated or attempted during his life other than school boy antics?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I was not. I have never known him to attempt or indicate to attempt to carry out any type of violence other than a schoolboy----

Mr. JENNER. Was he given to tantrums?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he was not.

Mr. DULLES. Did he ever seem to you to be a man who repressed himself, that he was boiling inside and that there were a great many emotions that he had that he was holding in? Did you get that impression from your knowledge of him?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. I would say that Lee's character was that he was more of a listener than a talker, not to the extent of being an introvert. I do not believe he was an introvert.

Mr. JENNER. I was about to ask you that question. There have been people who have been interviewed, teachers and others, a good many of them as a matter of fact, who have described your brother as an introvert. Your mother used the expression that he was a loner in a statement that she made to the authorities in New York City, and I think on this record.

Was he in your opinion, gathered from your actual experience with him during his lifetime, a loner, that is, a person who would tend to prefer to be by himself and not seek out friends, not necessarily repulse friends but not affirmatively seek them out?

Mr. OSWALD. I would say yes and no, sir, to that question if I may.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Would you expand then and explain your answer yes and no?

Mr. OSWALD. I feel like in the late 1940s to about the time of my departure to the service in July of 1952, that he did seek out friends, and that he did have friends. However, after my release from the service in 1955, I do believe that he had become more grown to himself.

Mr. JENNER. That is during the interim he had become, while you were away?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. You noticed a change in him when you returned from the service?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Is that what you mean to say?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right, proceed and describe that to us.

Mr. OSWALD. Still my contact with him was limited, but he did appear to be drawn within himself more than he had been prior, and I do not know of any friends that he had at that particular time.

One factor of course would be that he had moved quite frequently or a number of times during this period.

Mr. JENNER. Apart from the reason, for the moment, I seek to draw from you your personal reaction as to whether he had become more retiring and that you had actually noticed that difference in him?

Mr. OSWALD. Well, to me, sir, he had become or appeared to become more drawn into himself to the extent that I noticed that he wanted to read more, and of course when he wanted to read he wanted to be by himself. However, to me personally at that time when we were together, if he did not wish to read, he seemed and appeared to be as he was prior to 1952, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did that state of mind or his action, did you notice that that persisted when he returned from Russia?

Was he still of that retiring nature?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he was not. I felt that he was more of a gregarious type person that wanted to mix with people and wanted to talk to people.

Mr. JENNER. After he left your home and took residence with your mother and thereafter in various places in Fort Worth, did he seek you out?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. He called me on a number of occasions at my office.

Mr. JENNER. Did he come by your home and visit you voluntarily without invitation?

Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall of any time, sir. I usually was talking to him on the telephone quite frequently during the period that he had moved out of my mother's apartment into their own duplex, to the extent that I always told him that if he would like to come out any time just to give me a ring and I would gladly pick them up and bring them out to the house and return them to their home.

Mr. JENNER. Did he do so?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not.

Mr. DULLES. There has been some testimony here before the Commission to the general effect that in the latter period he broke pretty much away with some of the Russian group of friends in Dallas that Marina had developed or liked to be with, and that is because she could talk Russian. Did you see anything of that, and can you throw any further light on that?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. I was aware or had become aware of this group or some other group of the Russian-speaking population in Dallas, and I was aware of Mr. Gregory in Fort Worth, Tex., who had come to my house before Lee and Marina had moved out, to speak in the Russian language to Marina and to Lee. I was not aware that--I was aware that he was talking with and becoming acquainted with this group of persons, and I was not aware of the fact that he was withdrawing from this group of people.

Mr. DULLES. Did you know anything about his relations with a certain man named De Mohrenschildt?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. Is the name familiar to you?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it is not.

Mr. McKENZIE. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Dulles, who is the Chairman of the session today, has asked Mr. Oswald if he knows or has heard of a man by the name of De Mohrenschildt. Robert Oswald's answer I believe is reflected on the record that he did not know Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I have stated off the record to Mr. Dulles and to Mr. Jenner that I know George De Mohrenschildt.

I became acquainted with George De Mohrenschildt in this manner. Shortly after the law was passed in Texas that we could have women jurors----

Mr. JENNER. Could you fix that time?

Mr. McKENZIE. No, I cannot, but it has been within the last five years. I would say. But shortly after the law was passed that we could have women jurors sitting in our courts, my wife happened to be on a jury in Dallas, Texas, in one of our district courts. Sitting on that same jury with my wife, Sally McKenzie was a man by the name of George De Mohrenschildt. As a result of her jury experience in the trial of this case, in which he was a juror, I met George De Mohrenschildt. I have since come to know him briefly, and in no way intimately.

George De Mohrenschildt at one time was married to a lady from Pennsylvania by the name of Wynne Sharples. They were subsequently divorced in Dallas. Wynne Sharples is an M.D. by profession. She comes from a well-known Pennsylvania family, and her father has been engaged in the oil business under the name of Sharples Oil Company.

Wynne Sharples, following her divorce from George De Mohrenschildt, remarried and married another M.D.

Mr. JENNER. What is her married name?

Mr. McKENZIE. I do not recall her married name, but I do believe that she and her then husband, and I presume her present husband, the doctor that she married, were engaged in medical research at some hospital in Philadelphia or Baltimore, looking to the cause and a cure of a children's ailment of a very serious nature, and I believe it was connected with some blood type ailment.

Mr. JENNER. Leukemia?

Mr. McKENZIE. No, it was not leukemia. There was an article on Wynne Sharples in one of the magazine supplements of either the Dallas Times-Herald or the Dallas Morning News, within the past five years.

George De Mohrenschildt has subsequently remarried, and some time within the past two years there was an article on George De Mohrenschildt in one of the Dallas daily newspapers, telling of a trip that he and his new bride were going to take through Mexico and Central America walking. In other words, they were going to walk from Dallas or the Mexican-United States border through Mexico and through Central America. It is my understanding that such a trip was taken, and that George De Mohrenschildt has since that time returned to Dallas, Tex. In fact, I have seen him in Dallas, Tex., within the past 7 months.

I do not know of any relationship between George De Mohrenschildt and Marina Oswald or Lee Harvey Oswald, nor have I ever heard of any.

Mr. JENNER. Would you describe George De Mohrenschildt physically, his physical appearance, the one you have in mind?

Mr. McKENZIE. The man that I know is a large man, approximately six foot one to three inches. He would probably weigh 205 to maybe 215 pounds.

Mr. JENNER. Age?

Mr. McKENZIE. He appears to be between 45 and 50 or 51 or 52. He has got a dark complexion, and I would say a typically foreign expression or foreign look to him, from the standpoint of being either a Russian or of the Slavic races.

Mr. JENNER. Have you ever spoken with him, to give us your impression of whether he has a foreign inflection in his speech?

Mr. McKENZIE. He does have a foreign inflection in his speech, and I have heard, I do not know this to be true, but I have heard that Mr. De Mohrenschildt has quite a way with the ladies.

Mr. JENNER. All right, thanks.

Mr. DULLES. Thank you very much.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Oswald, I have asked you about the Nixon and General Walker incidents. Did you at any time prior to November 23, 1963, have drawn to your attention any incident of any kind or character of action on the part of your brother Lee similar to those which have been raised as to General Walker and Richard Nixon?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I have not.

Mr. JENNER. You have seen pictures of, and you have heard about, the rifle which was allegedly employed by the assassin of President Kennedy in that assassination?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And you have seen pictures of it?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you at any time prior to November 23, 1963, ever see the rifle which is alleged to have been employed in the assassination of President Kennedy?

Mr. OSWALD. I have not.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see at your home or any place a rifle of that character in the possession of your brother, Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I have not.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see any rifle of that character in or about any premises that he might or was occupying or that Marina was occupying?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I have not. I might further state I never knew him to own but one firearm in his entire life, and that was a .22 caliber rifle that he purchased from New Orleans, La., and on my visit to New Orleans, La., in 1955 on my discharge from the service, I purchased this from Lee for a total of $10. He had given approximately $16 for the rifle. It would not fire. And I gave him $10 for it, and took it back to Fort Worth and worked on it and put it into working condition.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have any discussion, did any discussion take place between you and Lee, or in your presence, other than that which you have testified heretofore up to this moment, of his use of a firearm, be it a pistol or a rifle, during the period from June 1962 to, and including, the 23d of November, 1963?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I had not.

Mr. JENNER. Nothing of that character occurred between you or in your presence and his presence during all of that period of time?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. I might say what they were saying at my home in Fort Worth, Tex., on Davenport Street during the first week, Lee and I were discussing hunting and so forth out at my in-laws' farm, I did produce at that time all weapons in my possession in front of Marina and Lee. They made Marina Oswald nervous, and shortly after looking at my weapons, I returned them to their proper place, and that was the only time that I have ever seen him handle a weapon from the time that he returned from Russia in 1962 until the reports of present-day activities along that line that he handled a weapon.

Mr. JENNER. Just to nail down this subject, I take it then that at no time from the time of his return in June of 1962 to the United States to and including November 23, 1962, did you ever see him in the possession of a firearm of any kind or character?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. If I may, sir, referring to the hunting trip that we did take at the farm in June of 1962----

Mr. JENNER. Other than that to which you have already testified?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct, at no time.

Mr. JENNER. And you had that in mind when you answered my question in the negative?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. I was excluding your prior testimony.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. Thank you.

Mr. JENNER. Apart from newspaper photographs, have you ever to your knowledge seen Jack Ruby on television?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I have not.

Mr. JENNER. Or a person said to be Jack Ruby?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I have not.

Mr. McKENZIE. Use his full name.

Mr. JENNER. Jack Rubenstein.

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I have not.

Mr. JENNER. Have you ever been in any establishment allegedly operated by him or in which he has an interest, to your knowledge?

Mr. OSWALD. Would you mind, sir, giving me the names of those establishments?

Mr. JENNER. I will do that from other papers later on, but to your present knowledge, without refreshing or stimulating your recollection, could you give me an answer?

Mr. OSWALD. I have not, sir.

Mr. McKENZIE. Now would you go on and ask him, or would you prefer to----

Mr. JENNER. Would you mind waiting? I am just taking care of Representative Ford's questions at the moment.

Your mother testified that an FBI agent had shown her a picture of some man on the evening of Saturday, November 23, 1963. She testified further that later, after your brother had been killed, she saw a picture of Jack Ruby or Jack Rubenstein alias Jack Ruby in the newspaper, and that she exclaimed in your presence that Ruby was the man whose picture had been shown to her on a Saturday night, November 23, 1963, by an agent of the FBI. Does that refresh your recollection?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And did that take place?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, it did.

Mr. JENNER. Would you please testify or tell us of where that took place, who was present and what the circumstances were?

Mr. OSWALD. That took place at the Inn of the Six Flags in Arlington, Tex., during the week of November 25, 1963, in the presence I believe of two or more Secret Service agents, and perhaps an Arlington police officer in the rooms that were assigned at the Inn of the Six Flags, and I feel like at least one of the Secret Service agents that was present----

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, sir, you used the expression "and I feel like". Do you mean you are speculating?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe, is that a better expression, sir?

Mr. JENNER. Go ahead, and then I will ask you on what basis you base that belief.

Mr. OSWALD. All right, sir. I believe that the Secret Service agents, at least one of them was Mr. Mike Howard.

Mr. JENNER. That is your best recollection?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. That is what you mean by believe?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. OSWALD. I testify it was either two or three Secret Service agents present, and my best recollection, another Secret Service agent would be Mr. Charles I. Kunkel, and if my recollection serves me correctly, there was an Arlington police officer at the time. It would be either Mr. Bob Parsons or Mr. Jeff Gan.

Mr. JENNER. These were the persons present on this occasion?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe this to be.

Mr. JENNER. And what occurred and what was said?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe, to my best recollection, mother was in another room and she had received a copy of a newspaper which I cannot identify, that reportedly had a picture of Mr. Rubenstein or Mr. Jack Ruby, and mother exclaimed to me----

Mr. JENNER. Did she come into the room in which you gentlemen were?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, she did.

Mr. JENNER. And she had the newspaper in her possession?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, she did.

Mr. JENNER. And she walked among you and said something?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, she did.

Mr. JENNER. Did she exhibit anything?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, she did.

Mr. JENNER. What did she exhibit?

Mr. OSWALD. A picture that I could recognize as a picture now of a man known as Jack Ruby.

Mr. JENNER. That was a picture in the newspaper?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right, proceed.

Mr. OSWALD. And she stated to me----

Mr. JENNER. In the presence of the others?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that on Saturday night, November 23, 1963, that two FBI agents had gone to the Executive Inn in Dallas, to the rooms where mother and Marina and Baby June Lee Oswald were staying, and that at this particular time Marina was taking a bath or a shower, mother had just completed hers, she was in a robe, she did not open the door fully, that one of the FBI agents produced a picture that she stated was Mr. Jack Ruby, and that was the text of it.

Mr. DULLES. You did not see the picture that was shown by the Secret Service man?

Mr. OSWALD. The FBI man?

Mr. DULLES. The FBI man.

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not. I was not there.

Mr. JENNER. Assuming it was shown, it was not exhibited to you. Your mother stated that a picture of Mr. Jack Ruby had been exhibited to her by an FBI man.

Mr. OSWALD. That a picture that an FBI man----

Mr. JENNER. On the Saturday night, November 23, 1963.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that the FBI man exhibited a picture, and mother said that she recognized from the newspaper to be Mr. Jack Ruby.

Mr. JENNER. Did any of the gentlemen present say anything when your mother made that statement?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe they did, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Give us your best recollection of what was said, and if you can identify the person, do so, but in any event tell us what was said, if you can identify them only by stating he was a police officer or a Secret Service man or an FBI agent, then do that.

Mr. OSWALD. I believe Mr. Mike Howard of the United States Secret Service looked at the picture in the newspaper and said something to mother in the line or in the nature of "Are you sure" and so forth like that. It was very brief, and she was saying that she was positive.

Mr. JENNER. She responded that she was certain of it?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that she was certain that the photograph shown to her on Saturday night, November 23, 1963, was the man in the picture being identified as Mr. Jack Ruby, the killer of my brother, Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. DULLES. Did she say anything about what the officer who had shown her this photograph had said to her, or explained why he was showing that picture?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, she did indicate that they wanted to show it to Marina for identification, and mother explained to him that she was in the shower and was fixing to go to bed, and they were very tired.

Mr. JENNER. Now would you give us please your opinion and judgment as to the stability of your mother?

Mr. OSWALD. Prior to November 22, 1963----correction, prior to November 24, 1963, I believed her to be a stable average person. However, during the week of November 24, including the date of November 24, 1963, through Friday of that week, which was November 29, 1963, due to the happenings and the events that had ensued from the November 22d afternoon through Sunday of November 23d, it is my opinion that at first that her reactions were quite normal, and to be expected.

However, it is my opinion during the latter part of that week, from approximately Wednesday, November 27, 1963, that her reactions to other matters related to the events of November 22 and November 24, 1963, were abnormal reactions.

Mr. JENNER. Did those normal or abnormal reactions continue to the best of your knowledge thereafter?

Mr. OSWALD. Since I have not seen her, sir, since Friday November 29, 1963, I have talked with her on telephone calls only, I have no opinion on that at this time.

Mr. JENNER. One way or the other?

Mr. OSWALD. One way or the other.

Mr. JENNER. Whether continued or not continued?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You have testified that you thought you had an influence on Lee's joining the Marines. That is an influence of an example rather than a direct influence, that is any direct contact by you suggesting that if he entered the service he should enter the Marines?

Mr. OSWALD. That would be correct, sir. It would be as an example.

Mr. JENNER. You mentioned a Mr. Gregory having visited at your home. Will you identify him, please?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe his given name, sir, is Mr. Peter Gregory, but I am confused a little bit about his son. His son's name is Paul Gregory, or vice versa.

Mr. JENNER. It is Peter.

Mr. OSWALD. Thank you. Mr. Peter Gregory came to my residence in Fort Worth, Tex. on 7313 Davenport Street.

Mr. JENNER. Approximately when, please?

Mr. OSWALD. Two occasions, the first occasion being approximately the last week in June, 1962.

Mr. JENNER. What was that occasion?

Mr. OSWALD. He had come over to see Lee and meet Marina and talk with them in his native Russian language.

Mr. JENNER. Was he accompanied by anyone?

Mr. OSWALD. Not on this first occasion, sir, if my memory serves me correctly. I believe he was by himself.

Mr. JENNER. Was anything said in your presence that you understood, having in mind that he spoke Russian at least in part of that occasion, as to how he became aware that Lee and Marina were residing with you temporarily?

Mr. OSWALD. We were expecting Mr. Gregory to come by that night. The preceding 2 or 3 days, I understood from Lee, that when he inquired at one of the bureaus of the Texas employment agencies in Fort Worth, that someone that he had talked to about a job had set up an appointment with Lee to go see Mr. Gregory, since Lee could speak Russian and write the Russian language, they thought perhaps Mr. Gregory might know of some contact that he could place Lee with, where Lee might obtain a job speaking and writing the Russian language. I understood from Lee----

Mr. JENNER. That is the result of discussions in your presence in your home?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. By Lee and Marina?

Mr. OSWALD. By Lee to me.

Mr. JENNER. Lee to you?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. And I understood that----

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Oswald, if you could, if it is the result of Lee having told you, would you please state it in those terms rather than that you understood, because your understanding may be based on hearsay that is not the fact.

Mr. OSWALD. Lee in our conversation told me that he went to Mr. Gregory's office on the first occasion to meet Mr. Gregory.

Mr. JENNER. And that would be before this last week in June when Mr. Gregory visited your home?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. DULLES. What is Mr. Gregory's profession, do you happen to know?

Mr. OSWALD. He was a consultant geologist. On this first occasion that Lee spent 1 or 2 hours talking with Mr. Gregory, and at the end of this occasion, Mr. Gregory gave Lee a letter to the effect, which I did read----

Mr. JENNER. Did your brother Lee exhibit this letter to you?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, he did.

Mr. JENNER. Have you seen the letter from the time that you read it to the present time?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I have not.

Mr. JENNER. And as far as you know the letter doesn't exist. You don't know whether it exists?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Would you please recite the content of it as you now recall it?

Mr. OSWALD. That it stated that Lee Harvey Oswald was competent to speak and write the Russian language fluently. That is my general remembrance of this letter.

Mr. JENNER. Was it signed? Did it have a signature?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, it did.

Mr. JENNER. Was it on a letterhead?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe it was, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Was Mr. Gregory a Russian by origin as far as you know?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, he was.

Mr. JENNER. Did your brother tell you that?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, he did.

Mr. DULLES. Was he a naturalized American, or don't you know?

Mr. OSWALD. This I do not know, sir. But during this conversation, he told me about Mr. Gregory to the extent that he had come from Russia approximately----

Mr. DULLES. This is your brother now?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, talking to me. Approximately 40 years prior to that time.

Mr. JENNER. So he had been in this country for approximately 40 years?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. It was not long after that conversation in which your brother Lee reported these things to you that Mr. Gregory visited at your home the last week in June of 1962, is that correct?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, approximately the last week in June 1962.

Mr. DULLES. Did your brother tell you where he had gotten to know Mr. Gregory?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, he had.

Mr. JENNER. Would you please relate that?

Mr. OSWALD. Through the lady at the Texas employment agency.

Mr. JENNER. He had gone to the Texas employment agency and had an interview with that lady?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. In charge of the agency?

Mr. OSWALD. One of the personnel working within the agency.

Mr. JENNER. Did your brother say to you that she had suggested Mr. Gregory as a possible source?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. With regard to employment?

Mr. OSWALD. That she had volunteered to call Mr. Gregory on his behalf to set up an appointment where Lee could go by and see him and talk with him in relation to employment.

Mr. JENNER. Did your brother indicate that that was his first acquaintance or knowledge of the fact that a person named Peter Gregory existed?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he did.

Mr. JENNER. And he said that to you affirmatively?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. In the course of that conversation, did your brother report to you any recommendations by the lady in charge of the agency with respect to his contacting any other persons who were of Russian derivation or who could or might speak Russian and be of possible assistance to your brother in obtaining employment?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, he did not.

Mr. JENNER. The conversation was confined to a Mr. Peter Gregory?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And have you now given us all you can recall as to that conversation?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I have.

Mr. JENNER. And Mr. Gregory visited your home the last week in June or at least approximately then?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. He came alone to the best of your recollection?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And it was a visit, intended as a visit with Lee and Marina primarily?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. You were present when he came to your home?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I was.

Mr. JENNER. Did he exhibit any acquaintance, prior acquaintance with Lee or with Marina?

Mr. OSWALD. He certainly recognized Lee. He did not recognize Marina.

Mr. JENNER. Was he introduced to her?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, he was.

Mr. JENNER. On that occasion?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, he was.

Mr. JENNER. In your presence?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And it is your impression that he was not acquainted with her prior to that time?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Or she with him?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one question here. Do you know of any other close friends of Lee's?

Mr. OSWALD. At that time, sir, I was not aware of any others.

Mr. DULLES. The Fords you met later, I believe, did you not?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct.

Mr. DULLES. And are they Russian or is one of them Russian?

Mr. OSWALD. His wife is originally from Russia.

Mr. JENNER. How did you discover that, Mr. Oswald?

Mr. OSWALD. That Mrs. Ford was Russian?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. OSWALD. I believe Marina told me.

Mr. JENNER. Representative Ford has asked that that subject be inquired into also, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Won't you pursue it then if you wish, in whatever way?

Mr. JENNER. Would you relate to us to the best of your recollection the names of Lee's friends or associates from his return to this country in June 1962 up to and including November 22, 1963?

Mr. OSWALD. The only ones I was aware of, sir, other than members of the family, was Mr. Peter Gregory and his son, Paul Gregory.

Mr. JENNER. May I stop you at that moment. You say his son Paul Gregory. Did you come to meet Paul Gregory as well as Peter?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. JENNER. On some occasion subsequent to this last week in June of '62?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. JENNER. Had you known that there was a Paul Gregory at the time Peter Gregory visited your home in June of '62?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. He might possibly have mentioned his son at that time, but I do not recall that he did.

Mr. JENNER. You don't have any specific recollection of it?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. JENNER. When did you meet Paul Gregory?

Mr. OSWALD. Approximately 2 or 3 days later.

Mr. JENNER. Under what circumstances?

Mr. OSWALD. Mr. Peter Gregory and Mr. Paul Gregory both came to the house.

Mr. JENNER. And this is the second occasion of Mr. Gregory being in your home, to which you have already alluded?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And what was the purpose of their visit at your house on that occasion?

Mr. OSWALD. To meet with Lee and Marina again, and to the best of my remembrance, for his son, Paul Gregory, who was attending either the University of Oklahoma or Oklahoma University, or Oklahoma State University, at which he was studying the Russian language.

And I believe at this time he stated he was a junior at the university, and that he wanted to be around others who spoke the Russian language, besides his father, to improve his language, or his knowledge of the Russian language.

Mr. JENNER. Was that stated in your presence?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, it was.

Mr. JENNER. In this case, you now identified?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. By Paul Gregory?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Did he attempt to converse, or converse with Lee, and/or with Marina in Russian on that occasion?

Mr. OSWALD. He did with both.

Mr. JENNER. And on both occasions did Peter Gregory confer or talk with Lee and Marina or either of them or both of them in Russian?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, they did.

Mr. JENNER. Were you forewarned or did you have notice that the Gregorys, Paul and Peter, were to visit you on the second occasion?

Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall any conversation you had with your brother in advance of that visit, or with Marina on that subject?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I do not recall any.

Mr. JENNER. Are those the only two occasions that you ever saw or talked with Peter Gregory?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, it was not.

Mr. JENNER. When subsequent to the second visit to your home, the first time subsequent thereto, did you see or speak with Peter Gregory?

Mr. OSWALD. I spoke again with Mr. Peter Gregory on Sunday morning, November 24, 1963.

Mr. JENNER. So it was an occasion subsequent to the death of President Kennedy?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Where did that take place?

Mr. OSWALD. At Howard Johnson's Restaurant on the turnpike between Fort Worth and Dallas.

Mr. JENNER. How did that come about?

Mr. OSWALD. I was to meet Mr. Gregory and two Secret Service agents at that establishment, to proceed with them from there to the Executive Inn at Dallas, Tex.

Mr. JENNER. Who had arranged that rendezvous?

Mr. OSWALD. By mutual consent between myself and the Secret Service agent, Mike Howard.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Howard suggested it?

Mr. OSWALD. He suggested this as a point of rendezvous on our way to Dallas.

Mr. DULLES. I believe this is described in your diary, is it not?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it is.

Mr. JENNER. Did you see or speak with Peter Gregory--have you seen or spoken with Peter Gregory at any time subsequent to this occasion?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have.

Mr. JENNER. Now, first--when was that? Is it recorded in your diary?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I do not believe it is in my diary.

Mr. JENNER. And when did that meeting take place? The one you now have in mind.

Mr. OSWALD. On three or four occasions during the week of November 25, 1963.

Mr. JENNER. In what city or town?

Mr. OSWALD. At the Inn of the Six Flags, in Arlington, Tex.

Mr. JENNER. And was he visiting there?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he was there voluntarily to act as an interpreter between the United States Secret Service and Marina N. Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

Subsequent to that time, have you seen or spoken with Peter Gregory?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Now, you were seeking to report to us the friends and acquaintances of your brother and your sister-in-law subsequent to their return to the United States in June of 1962. Now, who next in addition to Paul and Peter Gregory?

Mr. OSWALD. None, sir.

Mr. JENNER. None?

Mr. OSWALD. None.

Mr. JENNER. Were the Fords friends of your brother Lee and your sister-in-law Marina?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And you became acquainted with them, when for the first time?

Mr. McKENZIE. Last Tuesday, a week ago this past Tuesday, on February 11, 1964.

Mr. JENNER. You were unacquainted with either of them prior to that time?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And you have already testified about the Paines. And you can recall none other--no other persons?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Friend or acquaintance of either Marina or of your brother Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. OSWALD. Other than the ones I have described.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. DULLES. Plus, of course, the Paines, whom you have already discussed, and others you may have discussed.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have any knowledge of your brother Lee's defection or alleged defection other than that which you read in the newspapers?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had not.

Mr. JENNER. And other--other than there might be a reference to that subject in the correspondence you have produced for us?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have any possible reason to believe that your brother Lee Harvey Oswald knew Jack Ruby, or Jack Rubinstein, alias Jack Ruby?

Mr. OSWALD. Sir, are you asking for my opinion?

Mr. JENNER. I am asking if you have any knowledge first--anything upon which you can base an opinion.

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I do not.

Mr. JENNER. That he did or might have had an acquaintance with Jack Ruby, or Jack Rubinstein?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. JENNER. I will ask you the same question as to Officer Tippit.

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. I do not.

Mr. DULLES. With regard to Jack Ruby, you hesitated a moment.

Do you have anything else in your mind about that that you wanted to add or could add?

Mr. OSWALD. I just misinterpreted his question as to whether or not he wanted my opinion, rather than any facts that I might have.

Mr. DULLES. Well, let's ask for your opinion now.

Mr. JENNER. Now, we will go to your opinion.

Do you have an opinion?

Mr. OSWALD. Based on the newspaper articles that appeared during the week of November 25, 1963, at which time two reported employees of Mr. Jack Ruby, a man and a woman, stated to newspaper reporters that they had seen Lee Harvey Oswald in Mr. Ruby's establishment, known as the Carousel Club, and also on one occasion either or both of these reported witnesses stated that they had seen Mr. Ruby speaking to Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. And it is on the basis of that newspaper report and only that that you voice this opinion?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

I might further elaborate on my opinion that at various times through various magazine articles and television programs, indicating the route taken supposedly by my brother Lee from the place of his boarding house, or apartment, and prior to his capture, was in a direct or approximately a direct line to Mr. Ruby's apartment.

Mr. JENNER. Are you acquainted with the decision which your sister-in-law, Marina, reached not to reside with your mother?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I most certainly am.

Mr. JENNER. And did you take part in that decision, or were you present during the course of any event that resulted in her ultimate decision?

Mr. OSWALD. I would say that that decision, sir, was 90 percent my decision, and only 10 percent Marina N. Oswald's decision.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Now, as to that event, would you please tell us the course it took, your participation in it, where it occurred, and as much as you now recall about it?

Mr. OSWALD. This took place at the Inn----

Mr. JENNER. Before you answer--it is not recorded in your diary, is it?

Mr. McKENZIE. The diary would be the best evidence of that.

Mr. JENNER. In order that I don't try to examine over 20 pages----

Mr. DULLES. I have just read the diary, and I do not recall it.

Mr. McKENZIE. I don't, either. I don't believe it is.

Mr. JENNER. Proceed.

Mr. OSWALD. This occurred at the Inn of the Six Flags in Arlington, Tex.

Mr. JENNER. Fix the time.

Mr. OSWALD. On Thursday morning, November 28, 1963, at which time I talked to Mrs. Marina N. Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. In whose presence, if anyone?

Mr. OSWALD. If memory serves me correct, sir, in the presence of Mr. Jim Martin, and perhaps one Secret Service agent that I cannot recall vividly enough to identify by name. That Mr. Martin--if I may back up, sir. We did have a Secret Service agent there. I do recall he was Mr. Gopadze, who was acting as an interpreter. And I do believe that Mr. Gopadze acted as an interpreter at the time when we discussed with Marina the possibility of her moving to Mr. Jim Martin's home in Dallas, Tex., as a permanent guest or for as long as she wished to with her children, and I believe at this time she asked my opinion of this, whether or not I thought this was the thing to do, and my advice to her was that it was, and that she was going to abide by my decision that this was the thing to do at that time.

Mr. JENNER. This discussion occurred in the presence of these people you have mentioned?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Included in that discussion, was the alternative of her residing with your mother discussed?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not, because I did not look to that as an alternative.

Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether Marina--had there been any discussion prior thereto, to your knowledge, of any possibility or suggestion by anyone that Marina undertake residence with your mother?

Mr. OSWALD. Not to my knowledge, sir, was there any discussion between me and Marina or myself and my mother that Marina was going to reside in her place.

Mr. JENNER. As a possibility?

Mr. OSWALD. Not to my knowledge, sir. I might----

Mr. JENNER. Whether the discussion was directly with you or not, was the subject of the possibility--it is always possible--of Marina residing with your mother--was it raised during this period of time? Did you know of anybody ever suggesting it, or it being considered--apart from whether there was discussion with you directly?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, to my knowledge I was not aware of any situation such as that.

Mr. JENNER. I forgot now.

Did you say Marina was present during the course of this discussion?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And did she say anything on the subject through the interpreter?

Mr. OSWALD. If I may, sir, go to the preceding day of Thursday, November 28, 1963, to Wednesday, November 27, 1963, at which time I was advised by Secret Service agent Mike Howard of the offer of Mr. Jim Martin to take Marina and the children into the family, into his family, and raise them as he would his own members of the family. I did not discuss at first with Marina this offer. I did discuss with Mr. Jim Martin, prior to discussing with Marina N. Oswald, this possibility.

Mr. JENNER. This possibility being what possibility?

Mr. OSWALD. Of Marina accepting this offer.

Mr. JENNER. Of Mr. Martin?

Mr. OSWALD. Of Mr. Martin's, that is correct.

After my discussion with Mr. Martin on this question--

Mr. JENNER. In that discussion, were any alternatives discussed?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, there was not. It was a discussion only about Mr. Martin's offer to her with me in the presence of two Secret Service agents at lunch on that day, Wednesday, November 27, 1963. At the end of that discussion. I considered in my own mind for a number of hours, perhaps three or four hours, at which time I spoke to Marina N. Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. At the Six Flags?

Mr. OSWALD. At the Inn of the Six Flags, in a motel room.

Mr. JENNER. Anybody else present?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. OSWALD. They were present in the room, but we were in a separate room.

Mr. JENNER. They didn't take part in the discussion?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

At which time I pointed out Mr. Martin to Marina Oswald, and related to her as best I could at that time his offer to take Marina into his home, and the children into his home.

Mr. JENNER. Let me interrupt you.

You say you pointed out Mr. Martin to your sister-in-law, Marina?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. I take it--am I correct from that that she had not theretofore become acquainted with him?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I believe she had, but at that time she had seen so many people come in and out of there, that she did not remember which man was Mr. Martin.

And, at this time, I did point out Mr. Martin, so that she would know him from then on.

Mr. JENNER. Was any question raised about her residing at the home of a person who was a complete stranger to her? And about whom you knew little or nothing?

Mr. OSWALD. At this time I was considering this, and I believe this was my attempt to have Marina consider this, of moving into a home with a complete strange family.

Mr. JENNER. In other words, you were raising a question in your own mind on the subject?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Up to that time of Mr. Martin's offer, not recalling anybody that I stated it to--I assumed it my full responsibility to have Marina and her children move into my home in Denton, Texas.

Mr. JENNER. Had you suggested that to her?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Or to anybody else?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Had the suggestion been made to you?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, it had not.

Mr. DULLES. Was going back to the Paines in the picture at that time?

Mr. OSWALD. To some extent, and that was excluded entirely by me, sir.

Mr. JENNER. For what reason?

Mr. OSWALD. For my observations of Mr. and Mrs. Paine at the Dallas police office, as previously testified.

Mr. JENNER. The antipathy to them that arose, or that you had when you met Mr. Paine, and Mrs. Paine that evening?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Did Marina say anything to you on the subject, of her desire or possibility of her residing--returning to reside with the Paines?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, she did.

Mr. JENNER. And what did she say on that subject?

Mr. OSWALD. That she thought she could go back up to Mr. and Mrs. Paine and live.

Mr. JENNER. Did she indicate that that would be entirely acceptable to her?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Even desirable to her?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And what was your response to that?

Mr. OSWALD. I indicated to her that I thought that that was not the thing to do.

Mr. JENNER. Did you say that to her?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I did.

Mr. JENNER. Affirmatively?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And what did she say in response to that?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, to the best of my memory she wanted to know why I did not want her to return with her children to Mr. and Mrs. Paine.

Mr. JENNER. That is a normal response.

What did you say to that?

Mr. OSWALD. As best I could I indicated to her I didn't think they were the proper or correct people for her to be associated with.

Mr. JENNER. Well, that is a term of conclusion, Mr. Oswald. Would you please tell us--were you more specific than that, or just say, "I don't think they are the proper people"?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. It is very difficult.

Mr. JENNER. Try and reconstruct this conversation as best you can.

Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, he is trying his best to reconstruct the conversation, and I think he has testified to the best of his recollection.

Mr. DULLES. Are you tired at all?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I am not tired. Thank you, sir.

Mr. McKENZIE. Let me ask you one question, if I may.

Mr. JENNER. Could he answer the question I have just put to him first?

Mr. McKENZIE. Surely.

Mr. OSWALD. May I, sir, in my own way?

Mr. DULLES. Do you object to the question?

Mr. McKENZIE. No, I don't object to it, Mr. Dulles. I don't think that Robert being a layman knows what a conclusion is insofar as the way the question was framed or insofar as the way it was responded to. And I think he is trying to answer your question.

Mr. JENNER. I don't mean to suggest otherwise.

But the witness, as always--this is not criticism of this witness--they do tend to speak in terms of conclusions.

I am seeking as best you are able to do to reconstruct this event and recite what occurred.

Mr. DULLES. Would you restate the question, or rephrase it, whichever you wish to do?

Mr. JENNER. When Marina indicated to you her desire to return to the Paines and live with the Paines, and you responded as you have now testified, that you thought that that would be unwise, and they were not the kind of people with whom she should reside, would you please call on your recollection so as to state, to the extent that you can, exactly what you said to her in that respect?

Mr. OSWALD. My recollection of that, sir--I stated to her, because of her limited knowledge of English, that no--perhaps with some hand signals accompanying my "no" that this was not the thing to do. And I perhaps pointed to myself and indicated let me help her on this line--something of that nature, sir.

That is the best I can do.

Mr. JENNER. Did you indicate to her by sign or by expression or statement that you were suspicious of the Paines or that your reaction of that--was that Saturday night, did you say?

Mr. OSWALD. No, this was a Wednesday.

Mr. JENNER. Wednesday night--had led you to have some reservations about them?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. I perhaps attempted to give her some more indication on that. But due to the difficulty at that time of the language barrier, and her limited English, and she, I believe, was agreeable in accepting my explanation, no matter how brief it was--because, at this time, she was certainly looking to me for advice in trying to follow my wishes as best as I could get them over to her.

Mr. DULLES. May I just add for the record that the Commission realizes that Mr. and Mrs. Paine were separated or were living separately, and it was probably going back to Mrs. Paine, although I understand Mr. Paine from time to time would visit there.

Mr. OSWALD. That is my understanding, too, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And was that the understanding at the time you gave Marina this advice?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it was.

Mr. DULLES. Do you know whether Mr. Paine stayed there from time to time, or he just visited his wife? I understand they are separated, and not divorced. Isn't that correct?

Mr. JENNER. That is my understanding.

Mr. OSWALD. That is my understanding, also.

And in answer to your question, sir, I became aware of this on Saturday night, November 23, 1963, at the Dallas police office.

Mr. JENNER. Aware of the separation?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. As the Paines were about to depart with Marina and the children and my mother. And the statement was made by Mr. Paine that he would--I believe this to be my best recollection--that he would take them out there and return to his apartment, at which time the looks on both my mother's and myself's faces asked the question to Mrs. Paine, without saying anything, and she said, "Well, it is a difficult situation, I will explain it on the way."

Mr. JENNER. And that increased your antipathy?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it did.

Mr. JENNER. And the decision was made, as you have related then, that Marina would reside with the Martins?

Mr. OSWALD. Not on Wednesday night, sir.

On Thursday, the ensuing night.

Mr. JENNER. The following day?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And you have told us about that.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you had occasion to observe, did you not, the treatment of FBI agents of your mother, at least in your presence? Their attitude towards her and their treatment of her?

Mr. OSWALD. Sir, I do not recall any FBI agents in the presence of my mother.

Mr. JENNER. You do not?

Mr. OSWALD. If I may, sir--I believe you have reference to the United States Secret Service agents there.

Mr. JENNER. No. I was going to ask you that. But Representative Ford has a question which he has limited, however, to the FBI, so I did want to cover that.

You have no basis for an opinion, then, as to the treatment of your mother, Marguerite, accorded to her by the--by FBI agents?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. You might have an opinion, but you have no--well, I will withdraw that.

Now, I ask you, likewise, with respect to the Secret Service agents.

Mr. OSWALD. There was some friction with one agent and my mother, whom she seemed to resent very harshly, any time this agent spoke to her.

Mr. JENNER. You used the word "harshly." Does that include "unjustly" in your opinion?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it would not.

Mr. JENNER. Did you share the opinion that the Secret Service agent you have in mind was treating her harshly?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I would not be of that opinion. And the Secret Service agent in question here is Mr. Charlie Kunkel.

Mr. JENNER. During this period, did you have a good impression of him?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I did.

Mr. JENNER. Having in mind all of the circumstances, and the stresses, and his duties, do you have an opinion as to whether he accorded her normal and expected courtesy and proper treatment?

Mr. OSWALD. Only on one occasion I might have a hesitation to give a positive answer to that, sir. This occurred at the Inn of the Six Flags, in Arlington, Texas. As Mr. Kunkel was going out the front door one day--I do not recall the day--I would say this would be approximately Wednesday, November 27, 1963--there was a brief exchange at the doorway between Mr. Kunkel and my mother, of which I am attempting to recall, at which time my mother stated to him to the best of my remembrance, that "Please, sir, don't say anything to me at all."

And Mr. Kunkel's reply was--and he was irritated--that he would not unless he had to, and for her not to please say anything to him.

And that was the end of that.

Mr. JENNER. That is the only harshness, if you would call it harshness, that you observed occurring between any Secret Service agent and your mother?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Your mother has made an assertion before the Commission that she believes that the FBI should have interviewed her, and she asserts that the FBI did not interview her.

Do you have any information on that subject?

Mr. OSWALD. Are we referring to the period of the week of November 25, sir?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. OSWALD. May I have your question again, please?

(The reporter read the pending question.)

Mr. OSWALD. During the week of November 25, 1963, my mother, Mrs. Marguerite C. Oswald, was not interviewed by FBI agents.

I might add nor myself by the FBI agents.

And the only person out there, to my knowledge, that was interviewed by the FBI agents was Mrs. Marina N. Oswald.

Mr. DULLES. You had been interviewed, though, at a previous time by FBI agents, had you not?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. DULLES. I think that is indicated in your diary.

Mr. JENNER. I will touch on that subject in due course.

But Representative Boggs' area of questioning is confined to your mother. Do you have any--do you know why the FBI did not interview your mother?

Mr. OSWALD. The FBI did not arrive at the Inn of the Six Flags in Arlington, Texas, until, to the best of my memory, Wednesday, November 27, 1963. There is a possibility this might have been Tuesday, November 26th. But I do believe it was Wednesday.

And their purpose of coming out there at that time, as stated to me by a United States Secret Service man, Mike Howard, was to interview Marina N. Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. And did they do so?

Mr. OSWALD. They did, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And did they interview your mother?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, they did not.

Mr. JENNER. Did they interview you?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, they did not.

If I may, sir--in reply to your question whether or not they interviewed Mrs. Marina N. Oswald at that time, they attempted to interview her at that time.

Mr. JENNER. Was there an interpreter present?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, there was. It was Mr. Lee Gopadze of the United States Secret Service.

Mr. JENNER. And you emphasize the word "attempt". Would you describe the circumstances and what occurred?

Mr. OSWALD. When the FBI agents arrived there--I can identify one of them as a Mr. Brown, even though I know there are two or three Mr. Browns that I have met in the FBI--I do not know his initials--the other man I cannot remember his name. When the two agents and Mr. Gopadze came in, Marina immediately identified or recognized one of the agents who she had talked to before, and it is my understanding now, at the Paines' home in Irving, Texas.

Mr. JENNER. When?

Mr. OSWALD. It is my understanding some time in the early part of 1963, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And did Marina state that, or did someone state that in your presence?

Mr. OSWALD. This came to my knowledge, sir, after the departure of the FBI agents on this particular day.

Mr. JENNER. Through what source?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, through, to the best of my memory--through Mr. Lee Gopadze, who acted as an interpreter.

Mr. JENNER. Was Marina present when you were afforded that information?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe she was, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And did she have an aversion to being interviewed by the FBI agent on this occasion?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, she did.

Mr. JENNER. And she expressed that aversion?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, she did.

Mr. JENNER. Was the reason given in your presence?

Mr. OSWALD. That she did not----

Mr. JENNER. Was it--yes or no?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. By whom; Mr. Gopadze, by interpretation, interpreting Marina?

Mr. OSWALD. There, again, sir, this was knowledge given to me after their departure.

Mr. JENNER. Yes--but through what source did you obtain it?

Mr. OSWALD. Through Mr. Gopadze, in the presence of Marina Oswald.

And other Secret Service agents.

Mr. JENNER. And what did he say as to her aversion?

Mr. OSWALD. That Marina had recognized this one FBI agent as a man who had come to the Paines' home in Irving, Texas, and perhaps at another location where they might have lived in Dallas, or the surrounding territory, and had questioned Lee on these occasions.

Mr. JENNER. In the home?

Mr. OSWALD. In or outside of the home. I do not know whether it took place on the inside--but within the immediate grounds of the home, at least.

Mr. DULLES. And was this early in 1963? Prior, anyway, to November 22, 1963, was it not?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct. And that this particular one agent--not the Mr. Brown I have referred to, but the other gentleman that I do not recall his name--she had an aversion to speaking to him because she was of the opinion that he had harassed Lee in his interviews, and my observation of this at this time, at this particular interview, was attempting to start--I would say this was certainly so. His manner was very harsh, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Harsh towards Marina?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, it most certainly was. And by the tone of conversation by Marina to Mr. Gopadze, who was interpreting----

Mr. JENNER. In your presence?

Mr. OSWALD. In my presence. And the tone of the reply between this gentleman and Mr. Gopadze, and back to Marina, it was quite evident there was a harshness there, and that Marina did not want to speak to the FBI at that time. And she was refusing to. And they were insisting, sir. And they implied in so many words, as I sat there--if I might state--with Secret Service Agent Gary Seals, of Mobile, Ala.--we were opening the first batch of mail that had come to Marina and Lee's attention, and we were perhaps just four or five feet away from where they were attempting this interview, and it came to my ears that they were implying that if she did not cooperate with the FBI agent there, that this would perhaps--I say, again, I am implying--in so many words, that they would perhaps deport her from the United States and back to Russia.

I arose and called Mr. Mike Howard of the United States Secret Service into the back bathroom, and stated this to him. And I also stated that I realized there was some friction here between the United States Secret Service and the FBI to the extent that I was of the opinion that they did not want the FBI at that time to be aware of the tape recording that had been made of Marina N. Oswald, that she had been interviewed, in other words, by the United States Secret Service before the FBI arrived at the location.

Mr. JENNER. You mean that the Secret Service did not want the FBI to know that they had taped an interview with Marina?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. What was his response?

Mr. OSWALD. He said, "Robert, I cannot tell you what to do."

I did ask him if he would go over there to speak to him, and kind of tone it down--if they were going to get anything out of her, they would not get it that way.

And he said he would speak to her.

Approximately, at this time, the telephone rang, and he had to speak on the telephone.

I returned to my chair at the table where we were still opening mail, and again for the second time, the same implication was brought out.

Mr. JENNER. By the FBI agents?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. To Marina?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. In your presence?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. They spoke English?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Was the interpreter whom you named--was he participating?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. It was from the FBI agent, the other gentleman, not named Brown, to Mr. Gopadze, to Mrs. Oswald, from Mrs. Oswald back to Mr. Gopadze to the other gentleman.

Mr. JENNER. Proceed.

Mr. OSWALD. On the second occurrence of this implication, of the same implication, I arose again, and Mr. Howard was walking across the room, and I stopped him, and I told him for the second time, or requested for the second time that he please say something to them about that.

Mr. JENNER. Did you speak loudly enough to be overheard?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. I just asked Mr. Howard to please inform the FBI that she had, to the contrary, been very cooperative from the time she had been out there, up until their arrival. And, again, I referred to Mr. Howard the reference there of perhaps the friction, or the condition that I assumed, that they did not want the FBI aware of the tape recording at this time.

And his reply to me, he said, "Robert, do what you want to do. You certainly absolutely are free to say anything you want to say."

Mr. JENNER. And did you?

Mr. OSWALD. I certainly did, sir.

Mr. JENNER. What did you say? You went over to the agent?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I went over to Mr. Brown, the agent I knew, who was sitting at the end of the coffee table--it was a large round coffee table. And I sat there, and I spoke to him without saying so much about--anything about the tape recording. I did say to him--and I was shaking my finger at him, sir, I might say that--that I resented the implications that they were passing on to Marina, because of her apparent uncooperative attitude.

Mr. JENNER. Supposed, you mean?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

And that I knew for a fact that she had been very cooperative and highly cooperative.

And I returned to my chair at the table.

They attempted for another 5 or 10 minutes to interview Marina Oswald at that time, at which time Mr. Brown--he left the immediate area of interviewing there, and came over and started speaking to me.

I do not recall what our conversation was. I think perhaps it was on what had transpired out there prior to their arrival.

As the other gentlemen arose----

Mr. JENNER. Transpired where, prior to their arrival?

Mr. OSWALD. Out at the Inn of the Six Flags, prior to the arrival of the FBI agents.

And as the other FBI agent arose rather disgustedly to end the attempted interview, he walked to the door, opened the door, and spoke very harshly to Mr. Brown, who was just kneeling down in front of me--he said, "Just cut it off right there, Mr. Brown."

Mr. Brown indicated he wanted to talk to me some more. He just motioned to him to cut it off right here.

Mr. Brown left and went outside with him.

About 2 minutes later Mr. Brown appeared again, and asked me to come outside, which I did. And then the agent apologized to me. He said he thought I was one of the police officers out there and not Robert Oswald--he was not aware of who I was. At which time we went into the adjoining set of rooms, in the presence of both agents, and Mr. Brown asked me if--it was his understanding that Marina had been interviewed and had been cooperative prior to their arrival out there, and I said this was so.

Mr. JENNER. Was the Secret Service mentioned as having interviewed her?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not.

Mr. JENNER. The only expression was that, had she been interviewed.

Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, that is correct.

Mr. Brown did use the term had she been interviewed. And my reply, I believe, verbatim would be--my answer to that question, sir, is yes.

Mr. JENNER. And the Secret Service, as the interviewers, had been mentioned?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. By you?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. By Mr. Brown?

Mr. OSWALD. Implied, sir, by Mr. Brown.

Mr. JENNER. Is that the end of that incident?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Representative Ford has a notation here to obtain from you all the details on when you knew that your brother Lee wished to return from Russia, and you have given us those details, have you not? The information and knowledge came to you through the correspondence which now has been identified and admitted in the record?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And you had no other source?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have any discussion with your mother with respect to supplying funds--either her doing so or your doing so--to your brother Lee when he was in Russia?

Mr. OSWALD. My mother did write me on one occasion, sir, requesting that----

Mr. JENNER. This is while he was in Russia?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. I believe at this time she was residing in Crowell, Texas.

Mr. JENNER. She wrote you a note?

Mr. OSWALD. Stating that if I wanted to help Lee in any way, that I had to go through her to do it to the extent that she was going to handle everything, and that she was demanding--and that was the word she used in the letter--that I do so.

Mr. JENNER. That you do what?

Mr. OSWALD. Send any funds that I might want to send to Lee to her, to forward to Lee.

This I did not do, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you respond to that letter?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not.

Mr. JENNER. Can you fix, approximately, when you received that letter?

Mr. OSWALD. Approximately July or August of 1961, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Other than that letter, did you have any--well, in addition to the letter, did you ever have a discussion with your mother on the subject matter of supplying funds for your brother while he was in Russia?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not.

Mr. JENNER. And she had none with you, and none occurred in your presence?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, she did not.

Mr. JENNER. What part, if any, did you play in assisting, if you did assist, your brother Lee in his making of repayments of the funds he had borrowed from the State Department?

Mr. OSWALD. I did not assist him in any way, sir.

Mr. DULLES. He did not request it?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not. He wanted to do this on his own.

Mr. JENNER. Did you discuss that subject with him?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. JENNER. And did he so express himself?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you offer to help him?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. JENNER. And he refused?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. At any time--let us confine it first to the period that your brother resided with you in your home, upon his return from Russia--did he express to you any opinion or make any comment on his regard for, or affection for, or lack of affection for, or regard for Marina?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not.

Mr. JENNER. Was the subject ever discussed between you during that month that he was at your home?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not.

Mr. JENNER. Was the subject ever discussed at any time thereafter?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have occasion--obviously, you did--to observe the relationship between your brother Lee and your sister-in-law Marina, in their--as husband and wife?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did observe that.

Mr. JENNER. And would you please state what you observed in that respect?

Mr. OSWALD. I felt on two or three occasions that Lee's tone of voice to Marina--not understanding what was being said--but by the general tone of voice, that he was being overbearing or forceful.

Mr. JENNER. Inconsiderate?

Mr. OSWALD. Sir?

Mr. JENNER. Inconsiderate?

Mr. OSWALD. Inconsiderate.

Mr. JENNER. Of her?

Mr. OSWALD. Of her--some little thing she might want to do. I say some little thing--something that she was going to do there at the house or something, or was doing--I don't recall any specific incident.

Mr. DULLES. Do you recall her reaction?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. DULLES. What was it?

Mr. OSWALD. It was usually silence.

Mr. JENNER. Usually what, sir?

Mr. OSWALD. Silence.

Mr. JENNER. A silence that indicated resentment on her part, or rejection on her part, of comments your brother was making to her?

Mr. OSWALD. Generally, sir, I formed my opinion by the expression on her face, and her reaction as indicated, that it was not very pleasing to her to be perhaps reprimanded.

Mr. JENNER. In the presence of somebody else?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Tell us, if you will, please, from your observation of your brother and Marina, during all of the period of time up to and through Thanksgiving of 1962, her attitude towards your brother in the normal course.

Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, it would be described as just a normal attitude of a wife to a husband. They seemed affectionate--both of them appeared to be--and I believe this still to be so--very affectionate to the baby June Lee Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. And it is your opinion, based on your observation during this period of time, up to and including August of 19--Thanksgiving Day 1962--it is your opinion that they led a reasonably normal married life, having in mind all the problems that were facing them?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Did your brother ever discuss with you any incident in which he thought that Marina had been guilty of some misconduct--I don't mean sexual misconduct, but did he complain about her conduct?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not.

Mr. JENNER. Any kind or character, at any time?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not.

Mr. JENNER. Was there ever a discussion in your presence by anyone, including your brother and/or your sister-in-law, on the subject of his having physically harmed her?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; there was not.

Mr. JENNER. The subject was never discussed in your presence?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not.

Mr. JENNER. By anyone?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did it come to your attention at any time prior to November 23, 1962, or November 22, 1963, that your brother had inflicted some physical harm on your sister-in-law?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it did not.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see her when she had darkened eyes, as though a black eye had been inflicted upon her?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. Or any other physical injury?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. Your mother, in her appearance before the Commission, has stated, and implied, at least, that your sister-in-law Marina could understand English and could read English--let's confine it to the period up to and including November 22, 1963.

What is your opinion on that subject?

Mr. OSWALD. It is my opinion even now, sir, if I may go a little bit further, that her understanding of the English language is less than what it appears to be. She does not understand a considerable amount that she, by her actions, appears to understand. This has come to my attention since her visit to Washington.

Mr. JENNER. You mean since she appeared before the Commission?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

She does not grasp enough, and by this I mean, sir, to any extent--perhaps it might be best if I compared that with my experience with my children, approximately a three or four year old--if that much.

Mr. JENNER. In other words, do I fairly state that your testimony, even to the present time, and including all of the period preceding the present time, in your contacts with her, it is your opinion that she has a very limited command of the English language, whether you speak in terms of reading or understanding or speaking?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

I might further qualify that, sir--that she could perhaps speak more English words than she can read or understand.

Mr. JENNER. And you do not, therefore, share your mother's expressed view and opinion that she understands the English language to a greater extent than, to use the vernacular--than she lets on?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Did your mother mention to you or has your mother mentioned to you at any time any--or asserted any claims on her part, that there were any stolen documents, either stolen from her or stolen from anyone else, that would be relevant to this matter?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she has not.

Mr. DULLES. Has he spoken to you about the disposition of funds that might have come without a clear address or indication as to for whom they were intended as between herself and Marina?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she has not.

Mr. JENNER. Now, Mr. Oswald, when your brother returned from Russia, was there ever an occasion, to the time of his death, when he discussed with you the subject as to why he had returned from Russia? This is, apart from the correspondence. Did you ever have a discussion with him on that subject, or he with you, or a discussion that occurred in your presence?

Mr. OSWALD. None, sir, that I recall.

Mr. JENNER. None whatsoever?

Mr. OSWALD. None.

Mr. JENNER. Now, is that likewise true of your sister-in-law? Did she ever discuss it in your presence, or with you?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; at no time has she.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever inquire of either of them on that subject?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not recall at any time discussing it.

Mr. JENNER. Nor were you present at any time when anyone else ever inquired of either of them on that subject, up to and including November 23, 1963?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I was not.

Mr. JENNER. I take it from previous questions that you have no knowledge of Marina ever having had a black eye or being otherwise molested or beaten by your brother, or anyone else.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Were members of your family together, including Marina, to celebrate, to the extent it might have been celebrated, Christmas of 1963?

Mr. OSWALD. Christmas of 1963, sir?

Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir.

Mr. OSWALD. I am sorry--I misinterpreted that.

Christmas of 1963--Christmas Eve of 1963 my wife and I and my children traveled from our home in Denton to the Martin's residence in Dallas, Texas, and spent Christmas Eve, or the biggest part of that day, with Marina.

Mr. JENNER. Did you remain over to Christmas Day?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; we did not.

Mr. JENNER. Was your mother present on Christmas Eve while you were there?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she was not.

Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether she was invited to attend?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she was not.

Mr. JENNER. As far as you know, she didn't know you were attending there on Christmas Eve, is that correct?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion that occurred during the time of your visit on Christmas Eve, 1963, of your mother? Was she mentioned?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she was not.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have an opinion as to whether the Secret Service kept your sister-in-law Marina secluded against her will following November 22, 1963?

Mr. OSWALD. I have an opinion, sir, that they did not keep her secluded.

Mr. JENNER. Then you do not--all right.

Representative Ford is particularly concerned as to how stable a person your mother is, which would be of interest, of course, I must tell you, to the Commission, in judging the weight they might give to her testimony. And while I did ask you some questions on that subject this afternoon, would you give us your opinion on that?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, I would refer to my prior testimony on that.

Mr. JENNER. Nothing has occurred since that you would seek to elaborate upon that?

Mr. OSWALD. Perhaps one thing, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. OSWALD. That occurred during the week of December 2, 1963. It came to my attention from my wife, during the latter part of that week, that my mother said on one occasion, when I talked to her over the phone, a phone call that she had originated from her home in Fort Worth, Texas, while the Secret Service agents were still present with her, as they were in my home in Denton, Texas, that she turned around at the end of the conversation and said that I requested that they leave her home. And this, to my knowledge, was the reason why they left my mother's home prior to the time they ever left my home. And, as a matter of fact, some of the agents that were at my mother's home came out to Denton to stay at my home. And one of them had conveyed to my wife what was said that night.

Mr. JENNER. And that is an additional factor affecting your opinion as to the stability of your mother?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Which leads you to the view that she, since this tragic event, she is not as stable as she was prior thereto?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Now----

Mr. OSWALD. And I might add, sir--I don't believe I stated this. I, of course, did not request that the agents be removed from my mother's residence.

Mr. JENNER. All right, sir.

You have testified to ownership of rifles.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And do you still own a rifle?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. JENNER. Did you own and possess a rifle--I will withdraw that.

Did you ever take a rifle to the Irving Sports Shop in Irving, Tex.?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. Have you ever been in the Irving Sports Shop in Irving, Tex.?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not.

Mr. JENNER. Did anybody ever take any firearm owned by you or possessed by you and take it to the Irving Sports Shop in Irving, Tex.?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; they have not.

Mr. JENNER. May I inquire of you, Mr. McKenzie--I have a question here dealing with the nature of Marina's contract--if there is still one between Robert, Marina, and Thorne.

Do we have that contract?

Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, it is in evidence and has been given an exhibit number.

And I might also state that I have just left Mr. Rankin's office where I was contacted by long distance telephone from my office in Dallas, Tex., and had a letter read to me over the telephone that Mr. Thorne has sent to Marina Oswald at the home of Mr. Declan P. Ford, in Dallas. Tex., to the effect that he has had and received a letter from me, but regardless of my letter to him, that she cannot unilaterally cancel his contract, and that his contract is one that is coupled with an interest and that it would be to her best interest to immediately contact him directly in order that certain probate papers may be filed in connection with the death of Lee Harvey Oswald, to establish her community interest under the laws of the State of Texas in the estate of Lee Harvey Oswald; and, further that there was some $7,000 being held for Marina Oswald in Fort Worth, Tex., subject to the payment of $100 by Marina N. Oswald, and that likewise there were other business contracts needed to be affirmed or discussed with Marina Oswald by Mr. Thorne.

I might add in that connection that I have instructed my office to have Marina Oswald bring the letter to my office this afternoon or this evening, have a photostatic copy made of Mr. Thorne's letter, and I further instructed my office to contact Mr. Thorne by mail, certified mail, return receipt requested, and requesting in such letter to have Mr. Thorne contact me directly relative to the representation of Marina Oswald.

And I have directed a copy of that letter to be sent to the Grievance Committee of the Dallas Bar Association.

Mr. JENNER. I take it there at least was, and there is a dispute about it at the moment, as to whether it is still legally effective, an agreement between, or a contract between Marina on the one hand and Robert Martin and Thorne on the other.

Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, Mr. Jenner. And all of those agreements are in the record, and have been produced.

And I might also say that Marina Oswald had placed both Messrs. Thorne and Martin on notice that she has discharged them as her attorney and business agent, respectively, and, further, that I have likewise notified them since Mrs. Oswald has turned the matter over to me.

And, further, for the purpose of the record, I will state that Mrs. Oswald has paid me the sum of $25, which is not my usual fee, to represent her as a retainer.

Mr. JENNER. And you do represent her?

Mr. McKENZIE. And I do represent her, and do not desire one dime out of any contributions that she may have received by anyone for the benefit of herself or her children, nor would I accept same.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have a written contract with her?

Mr. McKENZIE. I have no written contract with her.

Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether Marina knows or can use or understand any language other than Russian, and other than English, to the extent that she is able to use and understand it?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not. I do know that she knows a little French.

Mr. JENNER. And that is the extent of your information on the subject?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. How do you know that she knows a little French?

Mr. OSWALD. During her recent stay at my home in Denton, Tex.----

Mr. JENNER. How recent was that? Just a few days ago?

Mr. OSWALD. Within the past 10 days to two weeks--I believe this was brought about, to the best of my recollection, due to a television commercial with a little French involved. I gave my total French vocabulary of parlez vouz Français, or something, and she replied to that. And we asked her did she speak French, and she said four or five other words, and she said that was about all of it.

Mr. JENNER. Did your brother ever speak to you or raise the subject of his jealousy or possible jealousy concerning Marina and any other man or men?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, he did not.

Mr. JENNER. And did any discussion of that subject or possible subject ever take place in your presence by anybody?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it did not.

Mr. JENNER. Do you know any of the following members of the Russian emigré group? I will omit those you have already identified.

George Bouhe?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. JENNER. Have you ever heard of that name?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not.

Mr. JENNER. Teofil Meller?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. JENNER. Have you ever heard the name before?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not.

Mr. JENNER. Elena Hall?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I do not.

Mr. JENNER. Have you ever heard the name before?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I have not.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Frank H. Ray?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I have.

Mr. JENNER. Have you heard that name or know of it during the lifetime of your brother Lee?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. You became acquainted with that name, with that person, subsequent to his death?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Are you acquainted with her?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I am.

Mr. JENNER. What were the circumstances, and when?

Mr. OSWALD. On February 19, 1964, I went to Mr. and Mrs. Declan Ford's home from Denton, Tex., on my way to Washington, D.C., to visit with Marina briefly, and on arrival there Mrs. Ray--and I feel like this is the same one--was babysitting with the youngest child of Lee Harvey and Marina N. Oswald. Also, Mr. and Mrs. Declan Ford's child and her own child. And I had a cup of coffee and waited on a taxicab.

Mr. JENNER. That is the extent of your acquaintance with her?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. That is the first time you ever saw or met or heard of her?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. To the best of your information, did Marina ever tease your brother Lee in public?

Mr. OSWALD. Not to my knowledge, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did she, in your presence, or to your knowledge, through other means ever make fun of his ideas? Deprecate his ideas?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not to my knowledge.

Mr. JENNER. Did she ever, in your presence, ever make any comments with respect to your brother's sexual power?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she did not.

Mr. JENNER. Was the subject of sex as between your brother and Marina ever discussed?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not.

Mr. JENNER. And do you know whether any remarks of that nature were made by anyone, including Marina, to or in the presence of your wife, Vada?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Has anyone or did anyone during the lifetime of your brother ever discuss or raise the subject with you?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, they did not.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever during all the period of your brother's lifetime, ever hear any discussion?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. On that subject?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Do you record in your memorandum, diary, all of the course of events of November 22, 1963, in which you took any part? In particular, your visit to the police station on November 22d.

What I am getting at, Mr. Oswald--if what you have written in your memorandum represents your best and sharpest recollection of the course of events recorded there as of the time you wrote that--that may satisfy the gentleman who wished that inquiry to be made.

Mr. OSWALD. Referring to the time I arrived at the Dallas police station?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. OSWALD. On the night of November 22, 1963?

Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir.

Mr. McKENZIE. Is there anything----

Mr. JENNER. And any other visits that you made on the 23d or 24th.

Mr. McKENZIE. Other than what is in your diary, is there anything else you could add to it in the way of expanding on what is in your diary?

Mr. Chairman, also in the interests of a chronological and connected record, having in mind the context of the record when it is read, may I suggest that the memorandum diary which we have identified and admitted in evidence, be set forth in full in the transcript?

Mr. DULLES. I think it would be useful to do that.

Mr. JENNER. I think this would be a good point to do that. I will ask Mr. Oswald a few things.

Have you recorded in your notebook how the assassination of the President first came to your attention, where you were, where you proceeded from that point on, and what occurred with respect to the subject matter really from minute to minute or hour to hour throughout the course of the day?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have.

Mr. JENNER. And all of your conversations and your contacts with anyone during the course of the day having relation to the subject matter of the assassination of President Kennedy on that day?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I believe I do.

Mr. JENNER. And the subsequent arrest of your brother and your visit to the City Jail?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And is that likewise true--that is a detailed recording of the course of events as you participated in them on the 23d and 24th of November?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Now, Mr. McKenzie has kindly asked a question that I would wish also to join in and put to you.

Having glanced through the memorandum again, or read it--is there anything you wish to add to any of the recordings that you have made in your notebook?

Mr. OSWALD. Well----

Mr. JENNER. That is that you might have been stimulated during the course of the questioning yesterday and today to recall, that you did not recall at the time you made those entries?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir--not to the entries or material that is already in here. Of course this is not complete to the extent it is my intention to complete at least as fully as I possibly can the entire week out at the Inn of the Six Flags--and possibly other events that has occurred to me since that time that would be more in the nature of a personal nature than anything that perhaps the Commission would be interested in. However, I might say that any time that I do complete this, I would certainly turn it over to the Commission, if they or my attorney deemed it necessary.

Mr. JENNER. If you elaborate further on your memorandum, as I understand, you will supply the Commission with a copy, and with your willingness also to exhibit the original of what you add to it?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir, we shall.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, you have read the memorandum. It does purport to state in some detail and accuracy the course of events of the 22d, 23d, and 24th, and during that week.

Was there anything in the course of your reading that memorandum that might have led you to pose any further questions of the witness?

Mr. DULLES. No, I think not at this time. I would have to go over it again and I will do that. But, at this time--it seemed to me, as I read it, to cover the area you have indicated.

I, of course, cannot myself judge the completeness of it. But it seems to cover the points that I would have questioned the witness on if I had not had the diary available.

Mr. JENNER. There is this feature. Mr. Liebeler and I have not examined the memorandum in depth with a view as to whether any thing said in it would stimulate us to ask further questions. I read it last night, but not with a view in mind of asking additional questions.

Mr. DULLES. Well, I read it from the same angle. I read it during these proceedings, and, therefore, I was distracted from time to time. I think it is a very helpful memorandum from the point of view of the Commission.

Do you wish to--it has been introduced in evidence.

Mr. JENNER. It is in the record.

Mr. DULLES. But do you wish it put in this record?

Mr. JENNER. Yes, I would like to have it recited in full in the record. And as I recall, you agreed, Mr. Oswald, to dictate--to take the memorandum and dictate it aloud on a tape, and Mr. McKenzie will forward the tape to us.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have so agreed.

Mr. DULLES. And when you do forward it, would you kindly advise us at that time if there is anything on a rereading of this memorandum which you would like to supplement or add which you feel will be essential for the Commission to have, or desirable for the Commission to have?

Mr. OSWALD. I will certainly do so, sir.

Mr. McKENZIE. And, further, Mr. Dulles, in the event that any of the attorneys representing or working with the Commission see fit to be in Dallas in the course of the investigation of the Commission, with a little notice Mr. Oswald will be glad to appear and talk with them at any time.

Mr. DULLES. Thank you.

And it is, of course, possible that we might wish to recall you. I am not at all sure, and I hope that will not be necessary. But we always have to reserve that for the Commission.

Mr. JENNER. There may be other witnesses who will say things upon which we would like your testimony.

For the period recorded in the memorandum, and the events recorded in the memorandum, the recordings are full and complete, is that correct?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And if you wish, or should determine to add to it, it will be with respect to matters that have occurred subsequently to those events recorded in the memorandum?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct.

Mr. McKENZIE. With one exception, Mr. Jenner. In the event there is some recollection or something that is recalled to his mind, he would likewise add that to the memorandum.

Mr. DULLES. I will direct that a photostat of Commission's Exhibit 323 describing the events of November 22, 1963, and immediately following days insofar as concerns the witness be incorporated in the record at this point.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 323 for identification and received in evidence.)

Mr. JENNER. Have you spoken to any member of the Dutz Murret family in New Orleans since November 22, 1963?

Mr. OSWALD. I have not.

Mr. JENNER. What knowledge do you have as to the cause of the split between your sister-in-law, Marina, and Ruth Paine?

Mr. OSWALD. The cause of that split, sir----

Mr. JENNER. What knowledge do you have of the split, first?

Mr. OSWALD. Full knowledge of the split, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Will you tell us about it? What led to it and----

Mr. OSWALD. Under my advice to Marina Oswald I requested that she sever all connections with Mr. and Mrs. Paine.

Mr. JENNER. When did you give that advice and make that request?

Mr. OSWALD. At the Inn of the Six Flags.

Mr. JENNER. Was this the same occasion about which you have already testified, and which consideration was being given, to whether your sister-in-law Marina would reside with the Martins rather than with the Paines?

Mr. OSWALD. This was the first occasion, sir.

Mr. JENNER. I take it then from your present testimony, just answering my present questions, that the discussion went beyond the question whether Marina would reside with the Paines as distinguished from the Martins, and when I say beyond, it went to the question of whether Marina would have anything to do with the Paines thereafter.

Am I correct?

Mr. OSWALD. Not fully, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Will you please explain?

Mr. OSWALD. To the extent that the question arose whether or not after our first agreement that she would not live with the Paines, that question never has been brought up again. The question has come up from Mrs. Marina Oswald. The time I fix this second query or inquiry from her was approximately December 20 or 21, 1963, at which time we were advised that Mrs. Paine had written her a letter or letters requesting that she contact Mrs. Paine.

Mr. JENNER. What was the date?

Mr. OSWALD. Approximately December 20 or December 21.

Mr. JENNER. Marina advised you that Mrs. Ruth Paine had written her.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Had written her, Marina?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Asking Marina to do what?

Mr. OSWALD. To contact Mrs. Paine; that Mrs. Paine wanted to speak with her. I do not recall any specific reference as to what she had to speak to her about. She just wanted to speak to Marina Oswald. She did not reply to these letters. She asked me would it be all right in my opinion for her to call her on the phone.

I recommended that she did not talk to Mrs. Paine at all nor answer her letters and to my knowledge this request has been done.

Mr. McKENZIE. To the best of your knowledge, is that right?

Mr. OSWALD. To the best of my knowledge she has not contacted Mr. or Mrs. Paine.

Mr. JENNER. She has followed your admonition or advice to have no contact whatever with Mrs. Paine?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Or to permit Mrs. Paine to have any contact with her, Marina?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. McKENZIE. May I ask a question right there, please?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Oswald, your testimony is from the best of your knowledge, is that correct, insofar as any contact with the Paines or Mrs. Paine is concerned?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. McKENZIE. And if the Paines have contacted Marina Oswald or if Marina Oswald has contacted the Paines, do you or do you not know of any such contact?

Mr. OSWALD. I am not aware of any such contact.

Mr. McKENZIE. All right, sir. Proceed.

Mr. JENNER. I direct your attention to the month of October, 1962 for a moment. Were you aware that your sister-in-law Marina was living with Elena Hall at that time?

Mr. OSWALD. October, 1962, sir?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. OSWALD. One moment, please.

No, sir. I was not aware of that.

Mr. JENNER. Were you aware of where your brother Lee was living in the month of October, 1962?

Mr. OSWALD. Only to the city in which he was living.

Mr. JENNER. And what city was that?

Mr. OSWALD. Dallas, Tex., sir. If I might ask, sir, can you fix the date in October, 1962 when Marina Oswald was reported living with Mrs. Hall?

Mr. JENNER. No, I can't at the moment. But neither Marina nor your brother was residing in Fort Worth at that time?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, they were not.

Mr. JENNER. From your previous testimony I gather that you did not know the whereabouts of your brother Lee other than that it was, you supposed, somewhere in Dallas?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

If I might make one correction, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. OSWALD. Referring to the postcard received from Lee Oswald post dated October 10, 1962 in Dallas, Tex., I recall receiving this two days after he had moved from Fort Worth, Tex., so it would be the first part of October of 1962 they were residing in Fort Worth, Tex.

Mr. JENNER, All right, with the exception of that.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. I take it you are not in the habit of retaining personal correspondence you receive from others?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I am not.

Mr. JENNER. I think you have explained why you retained the particular correspondence that you produced for us, that it was from your brother while he was in Russia.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And after he returned you received some correspondence and you retained that as well.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did the somewhat abrupt change in the attitude of your brother Lee toward the United States come as a surprise to you?

Mr. OSWALD. You are referring to the period in 1959?

Mr. JENNER. I am.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it did.

Mr. JENNER. That is the letters of May 5 and May 31 and those that followed. But that change, and his desire to return to the United States, did come as a surprise to you, is that correct, sir?

Mr. McKENZIE. Are you asking about his return to the United States or his going to Russia?

Mr. JENNER. No, sir, his return to the United States, his change of attitude.

Mr. OSWALD. It was quite a surprise to me that he wished to return to the United States from Russia.

Mr. JENNER. Was the change in attitude toward the United States as expressed first in the letters of November 8 and November 26, 1959, and then the series of letters that commenced in the spring of 1961 a surprise to you?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not a surprise to me.

Mr. JENNER. Would you explain both of your answers.

Mr. OSWALD. There, sir, I felt like in the due course he would certainly change his mind and opinion of the U.S.S.R., and I felt very strongly that after a period of so many months or a year or two that he would change his mind and return to the United States.

Mr. JENNER. Now, prior to your brother's leaving Russia to return to the United States, that is actually a day or two before, if not the day before they left Minsk for Moscow, in May of 1962, your brother Lee outlined his projected route by return to the United States. He spoke in that letter of leaving from England and arriving in New Orleans.

Mr. OSWALD. I beg your pardon, sir?

Mr. JENNER. There is a difference in the route actually taken. Did you ever discuss with Lee why that change in route occurred? Are you seeking that May letter?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I am.

Mr. JENNER. It is probably the 22d of May and that is Exhibit 318.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have the letter before me. You are referring to the letter of May 22, 1962?

Mr. JENNER. Well, it would appear from the notation handed to me. Is there any discussion in that letter about the route of his return, projected return, to the United States?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; there is.

Mr. JENNER. What does it say, please?

Mr. OSWALD. "Well, we have finally gotten the word from the U.S. Embassy and shall leave for Moscow tomorrow. We will be 10 to 14 days in Moscow and then leave for England where we shall board a ship for America. The transatlantic trip will take another two weeks or so."

Mr. JENNER. Now, the fact is that they did go to Moscow and then to Holland, and boarded a ship at Holland, and as you say touched England and then went directly to the United States.

Did you ever discuss with your brother that change in route?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. And I did fail to read further on down where it does refer to, as he put it, "will actually arrive in America probably in New Orleans."

Mr. JENNER. He actually arrived in New York City.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. That subject matter was never discussed by you with him?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not.

Mr. JENNER. Or by him in your presence?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not.

Mr. JENNER. Or by Marina?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. With you or in your presence?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not.

Mr. JENNER. Have you related, during the course of the day and yesterday, called our attention to all of the correspondence between yourself and your brother from the time of his return to the United States in June of 1962 to and through November 22, 1963?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have.

Mr. JENNER. According to our records you and your wife, Vada, or either or both of you, had the following contacts with the FBI during the lifetime of your brother Lee. I direct your attention first, to the possibility of refreshing your recollection, to the date of April 27, 1960.

Were you interviewed by an FBI agent on that day, and would the name Fain serve to refresh your recollection on that score?

Mr. OSWALD. It certainly does, sir. I cannot recall the date of our interview or our conversation.

Mr. JENNER. This would be in the spring, let us say, of 1960. I have given you the date. Does that sound right to you, April 27, 1960.

Mr. OSWALD. It sounds approximately right, sir, because I do recall I just started my employment with the Acme Brick Company in Fort Worth on the 18th of April, 1960.

I do not believe that it was that close to my date of employment with the Acme Brick Company. I feel like it would have been perhaps 20 or 30 days later.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Subject to that, do you recall the interview, is the name familiar to you as being the gentleman who interviewed you?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And what inquiries did Mr. Fain make of you? What subject matter, first.

Mr. OSWALD. He was inquiring as to whether or not I had heard from my brother Lee Harvey Oswald recently, I believe that is the way it was put.

Mr. JENNER. Did he at that time inquire of you on the subject matter of your brother's defection?

Mr. OSWALD. Not to my remembrance, sir.

Mr. DULLES. By subject matter, do you mean reason?

Mr. JENNER. Reason or the fact that he had defected or what he might have known about his defection.

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not believe he did.

Mr. JENNER. He didn't discuss that. According to your recollection, there was no discussion of that subject?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Was the subject of the possibility of your being contacted by any Soviet officials discussed?

Mr. OSWALD. It was discussed not in the term of Soviet officials. In case any----

Mr. JENNER. Any representative.

Mr. OSWALD. Any Communist Party member or so forth along that line contacted me, I assured him I would certainly, if necessary, take care of myself or if I had time report it to his attention.

Mr. JENNER. You would report all contacts to the FBI either directly to Mr. Fain or some other FBI agent or office?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And you agreed to do that?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I most certainly did.

Mr. DULLES. Have you had any other calls from the FBI officers since that date?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have.

Mr. JENNER. I think we will get to that.

Mr. DULLES. Are they pertinent?

Mr. JENNER. Yes, they are and I think I have them listed.

Was the subject of the possibility of your receiving any request by any such people for any item of personal identification of your brother discussed with Mr. Fain.

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not recall that it was.

Mr. JENNER. You have no present recollection of that?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. JENNER. This is not--trying not to be repetitious but the author of this memorandum is highly desirous of inquiring of you as to whether the subject of personal identification of your brother was raised by Mr. Fain in any connection or in any aspect.

Mr. DULLES. I don't understand that question, what do you mean by personal identification?

Mr. JENNER. Some item of personal identification.

Mr. McKENZIE. Marks identifying.

Mr. DULLES. Wound or anything of that sort?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. Physical marks really.

Mr. JENNER. Two classifications, physical marks how he could be identified; secondly any items of identification, such as registration cards, things of that nature. But first personal identification in the sense of physical properties. The person of your brother Lee.

Mr. OSWALD. I believe Mr. Fain did at that time inquire as to any scars that might appear, that I was aware of on Lee's body. The only scar that I was familiar with was the one over one ear, I do not recall which ear it was, where he had a mastoid operation performed at an earlier date.

Mr. JENNER. That is his right ear, was it not?

Mr. OSWALD. I still don't know, sir. I don't recall.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

In that connection, however, did Mr. Fain raise with you the subject that if anyone inquired of you as to any items of scars or other possible identification that you would in turn advise the FBI that such an inquiry had been made of you?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir, and I might say it was my further understanding that I did agree if anybody inquired about Lee in such a nature that other than perhaps newspaper reporters, who were properly identified to me and I did know, I would inform him or his office of this inquiry.

Mr. JENNER. Your present recollection as to aspects of identification was limited, that is the only one you discussed with Mr. Fain was the fact that your brother had a mastoid operation on one of his ears.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And you knew of no other scar or similar identification on his body?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Now, do you recall being again interviewed by Mr. Fain on September 18, 1961? This would be a couple of months, two or three months after your brother returned--no, he is still in Russia.

Mr. DULLES. He is still in Russia.

Mr. JENNER. Perhaps I may refresh your recollection an interview by Mr. Fain with you respecting your then current knowledge of your brother Lee's activities in Russia.

Mr. OSWALD. May I inquire, sir, was this a telephone conversation?

Mr. JENNER. All that is reported to me in this memorandum is that Mr. Fain again interviewed you on September 18, 1961 with respect to your knowledge of your brother Lee's activities in Russia.

Mr. OSWALD. I do believe that he did, sir, and I believe this was over the telephone.

Mr. JENNER. By way of a telephone call?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. You do not recall as of this time or approximately this time any personal interview that is as distinct from interview by telephone?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall that during the course of that conversation you advised FBI agent Fain that your brother had been critical of the Russians.

Mr. OSWALD. This was in September 1961, sir?

Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I did, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And that you were surprised that the Russians would permit such criticism to be conveyed to you by letter?

Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall that specific statement but I do not deny it.

Mr. JENNER. It is possible that you made that statement?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Now, the next date is May 18, 1962. Was to your knowledge or by report from your wife, was your wife interviewed by the FBI on that date or approximately that date?

Mr. OSWALD. My remembrance on that, sir, is that she was on or around that date, and also by telephone.

Mr. JENNER. Did she report both occasions to you?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, she did.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Would you please recite those, taking them in the order, what she said to you and where and what the circumstances were?

Mr. OSWALD. She was at our residence in Fort Worth, Tex., and she acknowledged that Mr. Fain----

Mr. JENNER. Did she tell you that, sir?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes. I might add very courteously, inquired----

Mr. JENNER. That Mr. Fain was quite courteous in his inquiries of Vada?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes. He inquired over the phone as to whether or not we had recently heard from Lee, and was there any indication about how his efforts to return to the United States were progressing from that end.

Mr. DULLES. How did it happen he called upon your wife, rather than you; were you away at that time, away on business or what?

Mr. OSWALD. I don't believe I was, sir. I do believe Mr. Fain was courteous enough perhaps not to call me at my office, and it was of such a nature that he felt like perhaps my wife could certainly answer whether or not we had heard from him recently.

Mr. DULLES. I see.

Mr JENNER. Did she report to you as to whether any understanding had been made by her, that she or you or both of you would advise the FBI as soon as you had information as to when he might return to the United States?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I do not recall that.

Mr. JENNER. You don't recall her reporting that to you?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I do not.

Mr. JENNER. You had already agreed with Mr. Fain back in September, 1961, to keep him advised of the comings and goings of your brother in any event, did you not?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I do not believe it was my intentions, nor do I believe I conveyed it to Mr. Fain at that time, that I would, as soon as I did have notice that when, or approximately when, he was going to arrive, that I would notify them. This was certainly not my intention then. It perhaps didn't even occur to me at that time.

Mr. JENNER. Did you say anything to Mrs. Oswald, Mrs. Vada Oswald, when she stated she had agreed to keep the FBI advised, or to advise the FBI when you and she or either of you was further notified as to the time, if any, of your brother Lee's return to the United States?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, my wife did not advise me that she made any type of statement to Mr. Fain of that effect. So, I certainly did not advise her to what we would do or convey to the FBI when we did have knowledge of it.

Mr. JENNER. To the best of your recollection then there was no discussion on that particular phase of your brother's presence in Russia on the occasion you are now testifying about?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you adverted to two occasions when the FBI interviewed your wife. Was the second one June 26, 1962, or thereabouts?

In other words, approximately five weeks later?

Mr. OSWALD. The date was June 26, 1962, sir?

Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir.

Mr. OSWALD. I believe that would be correct, sir, or approximately correct.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have a conversation with Mrs. Vada Oswald on that subject and did she make a report to you of any kind?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I believe this is the occasion that either Mr. Fain or some other agent called the house in Fort Worth, Tex., and requested my wife to pass on to Lee Harvey Oswald that they would like to see him at their office in Fort Worth, Tex., for an interview.

This is the only other time my wife ever conveyed to me that the FBI had called the home and spoke to her, nothing else was said about it.

Mr. DULLES. This was about a month after his return, wasn't it?

Mr. OSWALD. Approximately 2 weeks.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion on this particular occasion between you and your wife on the subject of her not advising the FBI of your brother's arrival in the United States?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, there was not.

Mr. JENNER. No discussion on that subject at all?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, not at all.

Mr. JENNER. Did she report to you that she had stated to Mr. Fain that your brother Lee and his wife Marina and their child had come to Fort Worth and were living with you and with her?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she did not state that to me.

Mr. JENNER. Would you give again the full conversation?

Mr. OSWALD. On that date of June 26, 1962?

Mr. JENNER. Yes, between yourself and your wife Vada.

Mr. McKENZIE. To the best of your recollection.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. OSWALD. To the best of my recollection, the full text of my conversation with my wife was that Mr. Fain or some other member of the FBI Bureau in Fort Worth, Tex., had called and spoke to her and requested that she pass on to Lee Harvey Oswald that they would like to speak to him at their office in Fort Worth, Tex. I would not say this was part of the conversation, I would assume at that time, as I would assume now, that perhaps he asked her was Lee and his family there.

If you know my wife, she didn't lie to Mr. Fain or any other FBI agent, and she said he was, and perhaps this prompted the request. I might say this, sir. If they did not know that Lee Harvey Oswald had returned in June, until June 26, 1962, somebody was asleep on the job.

Mr. JENNER. I would perhaps be inclined to agree with that, sir. But as far as your conversation with your wife Vada is concerned, she said nothing that she had advised the FBI that--she had discussed with Mr. Fain the fact that she had not advised the FBI of your brother Lee's return.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Now, do you recall an interview with the FBI, or they with you, on August 14, 1962 or thereabouts in Fort Worth?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, and I recall that this was by telephone at the general office of the Acme Brick Company and outside of my office as I was leaving the office to go to lunch that day.

The telephone call came through and I took it in another office and spoke to Mr. Fain briefly. He inquired----

Mr. JENNER. He identified himself as Mr. Fain?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Had you become acquainted with his telephone voice at least by that time?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, I had.

Mr. JENNER. And that voice was the voice that you identified at that time as that of Mr. Fain?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

What did he say and what did you say?

Mr. OSWALD. He inquired as to where Lee was living at at that time and to the best of my recollection my reply to him was that I did not know the house number. I knew the street not by name but by locale and I gave him this location.

Mr. JENNER. Would you please tell me what you said to him?

Mr. OSWALD. That to the best of my recollection, that this duplex was located across the street from the side of Montgomery Ward located on West 7th Street in Fort Worth, Tex., approximately three or four blocks from West 7th Street.

Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Chairman, you have greatly inconvenienced yourself this evening and accommodated both myself and Mr. Oswald for which we thank you.

However, it is now 16 or 17 minutes of 8 o'clock in the evening, and Mr. Oswald has been testifying here for, to the best way I can----

Mr. DULLES. It will be 12 hours pretty soon, 11 hours.

Mr. McKENZIE. Approximately 11 hours and by the same token Mr. Jenner has been questioning him for a like period of time, with the exception of the few questions you have asked and the few questions I have asked, and I submit maybe we should start again in the morning.

And I likewise say that he is perfectly willing to go forward but I do know that you have plans and if we can meet----

Mr. DULLES. We will have to do it tomorrow.

Mr. McKENZIE. We can be here at 8:30, if it will suit the Commission's----

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. DULLES. 9:30 tomorrow morning.

And we will adjourn at 11 o'clock, come hell or high water.

(Whereupon, at 7:45 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)

_Saturday, February 22, 1964_

TESTIMONY OF ROBERT EDWARD LEE OSWALD RESUMED

The President's Commission met at 10 a.m. on February 22, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.

Present was Allen W. Dulles, member.

Also present were Albert Jenner, assistant counsel; and William McKenzie, attorney for Robert Edward Lee Oswald.

Mr. DULLES. The Commission will come to order.

We will continue the hearing of Mr. Robert Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. Thank you, sir.

Have you now recited for us all of the occasions on which any agent of the FBI called or visited with you prior to November 22, 1963?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have.

Mr. DULLES. And your answer would include any other Government investigatory bodies, would it? I mean you didn't have the Secret Service at this time?

Mr. McKENZIE. In answer to your question, Mr. Jenner, and to Mr. Dulles' further question, Robert has told me there was one other agency that he does recall at this time.

Mr. JENNER. Why don't we have him recite it, and then see if it is pertinent.

Or, may I suggest, Mr. Chairman, we might go off the record and see what it was.

Mr. McKENZIE. It was Immigration and Naturalization.

Mr. JENNER. Fix the date, please.

Excuse me.

There was one other Government agency that interviewed you?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Would you give the time, please?