Part 41

Then it goes on: “Though the process of hypothecating a vessel may be usual between British merchants, is it usual to cover a transaction of Spanish slave trade with the British flag, by means of such an arrangement as that described to have taken place in the case of the Augusta?--In order to answer that question, it seems to me that it is fair that I should ask where is the transaction of covering, and where is the slave trade transaction? I know positively of my own knowledge that there is no such thing at all connected with the Augusta. If I had an opportunity, I could make my affidavit of that.” He is asked again: “Do you mean that you know that the Augusta was not engaged in any slaving transactions during the voyage upon which she left Liverpool?--Most assuredly not; in fact my testimony is hardly required of that, because every thing proves that. When she was detained, it was never said that she was upon a slaving operation at all. Before she left this port, after she was bought, she was completely rendered useless for that purpose.” Now leagers and things of that kind must be taken to pieces, for she would not be allowed to have those on board; but the staves forming them were left on board in a state in which they might very soon have been made ready for use. When the question comes, whether she was engaged in a slave trading transaction, you are to examine the grounds of the prisoner’s denial with reference to the other parts of the testimony, and how far that can be relied upon.

This question is then put: “The charge is, that she was engaged in carrying goods to a person engaged in the slave trade; not that she was engaged in the slave trade herself?--I most certainly say, that I do not know whether the person is so engaged or not.” “Is it usual to cover a transaction of Spanish trade with the English flag?--I am not aware that a Spanish merchant is prohibited chartering an English vessel.” No doubt a Spanish merchant is not; but if an Englishman knows that that vessel is being chartered for a slave trading transaction, and he is one of the persons chartering her for that purpose, I have no hesitation in stating that he is guilty under this Act of Parliament, for he is chartering a vessel to accomplish that illegal object; and if merchants in this country would not accept bills drawn by slave traders, if they would not send goods from this country to be employed for the purpose--in fact, the trade could not be carried on at all. Then he is asked: “But is it lawful to employ the British flag to cover a vessel that is not owned by a British subject?--I say that that vessel is owned by a British subject.” “By whom?--By Captain Jennings.” It is for you to say whether that is a covert, or a _bonâ fide_ ownership. “Was not the money with which she was purchased, the money of Pedro Martinez--It seems to me that English captains and English subjects are not prohibited from borrowing money from Spaniards; she was bought with money lent by Pedro Martinez to Captain Jennings for the purpose.” Of course there can be no difficulty in showing that that was lent by persons connected with that firm, if it is true; if it is not true, of course it will not be shown.

Then he is asked: “Do you mean that the money was a loan to Captain Jennings, at the time he paid it for the vessel?--It was a loan to Captain Jennings.” “Do you mean that the ship was then Captain Jennings’s property?--It was.” “Was it in his power to sell that ship at any port he pleased?--There was a mortgage upon the vessel.” “You have stated that yours is an agency trade?--It is so, and in the multitude of business, any one can understand that 20,000_l._ in 15 or 20 years, can only be a mere trifle in the business of any merchant, without laying claim to a large business; and in following that business, we have executed shipping orders.” “To what part of the coast of Africa has that business been chiefly conducted?--I believe almost exclusively to the Gallinas.” I believe you will find the Gallinas is simply a slave trading place, and nothing else. “Have the goods that Mr. Martinez has ordered to be sent to the Gallinas, been all sent to the same individual?--No, to different individuals; sometimes to Pedro Blanco, who was for a certain time an agent of Pedro Martinez on the coast, and sometimes we have sent a bill of lading drawn in this way to order; we have sent it to Pedro Martinez as a voucher against his account.” “Do you know the nature of the trade of Pedro Martinez at the Gallinas?--I know from general report that Don Pedro Martinez himself is supposed to deal in slaves, and I believe it is so.” All his goods have been sent to the Gallinas. “Is he known at the Havannah as a dealer in slaves?--I do not know; but I believe so. I do not know why it should not be known at the Havannah, if it is known in other parts.” “Is a ship which is hypothecated liable to be foreclosed at any moment at the discretion of the mortgagee?--It depends altogether upon the terms of the mortgage. If the mortgagee says, ‘You must give me the money when I ask for it,’ of course he must sell the vessel if he has not got any thing else.” Read on in the same way this document, “but he is not bound to give the money in any shape or form.” “He would always have to deduct whatever freight had been earned. When the security may be called upon to be effective, depends upon the nature of the transaction between the parties.” “Your house had nothing to do with any letters that might be put on board the Augusta after she sailed from this country?--Nothing whatever.” “The Augusta was seized on the coast of Africa on the charge of slave trading?--I believe that was the case.” “Did you not appeal against that condemnation?--Yes, there is an appeal by the owner.” “Before the Privy Council?--Yes.” “That appeal is not yet decided?--I believe not.” “You stated that your transactions with Africa for Martinez have amounted to about 20,000_l._ in 15 or 20 years. What has been the amount of your whole transactions with Blanco and Martinez of the Havannah during that period?--Perhaps 100,000_l._ or a larger sum. For instance, we have received more than 40 or 50 cargoes of sugar from the Havannah consigned to us, and cigars; and we have received bills of lading of specie, shipped at Mexico, to be sold here, and bar gold, and things of that sort.” “Have you reason to suppose that the whole of that large commerce is subservient to the carrying on of the slave trade by the house of Blanco & Martinez at the Havannah?--I do not know; I know that they have large transactions in general business. I know that a short time ago I got 40,000_l._ or 50,000_l._ of Spanish bonds in the market for Martinez. I know that he is a large speculator in Spanish bonds and in securities of state.” “Is that speculating in Spanish bonds on account of the house at Cadiz, or the house at Havannah?--Speaking technically, I should say it was on account of the Cadiz house.” “The question related to the commerce of the Havannah house?--Pedro Martinez is a Havannah merchant. But with regard to Havannah merchants, we have received large consignments of sugar, cochineal, and sometimes Mexican goods, brought to Havannah, and shipped to us here.” “In what course of business have the proceeds of those consignments been disposed of; have they gone in sending supplies to the coast of Africa?--Out of that large amount of money 22,000_l._ is the amount of all the goods that we have sent to the coast of Africa in 20 years.” “Of all descriptions?--Of all sorts and kinds; I have gone through the invoice-book and found them out.” “Have the proceeds generally been disposed of by drafts from the parties themselves to your house?--By the parties at Havannah, when the exchange turns to their advantage.” “Have you reason to suppose that a large portion of the trade that they carry on at the Havannah is the slave trade?--I had no reason to know any thing of the kind; I have known more of their transactions with the slave trade since these things have been mooted than I ever knew before; I have had more knowledge of these things lately than I ever had in my life before; and when I say ‘I,’ I beg to state that I ought to state ‘we,’ for all my partners are in the same situation.” “Have you been employed by the house at the Havannah to ship manufactured goods from this country to Havannah, suitable for the African trade?--We have sometimes shipped goods to the Havannah of the same kind as those that were in the Augusta; cotton goods and other things of that sort.” “Has that been recently?--In the course of our operations.” “How many years ago?--In the course of these 15 or 20 years that we have been engaged in business with them; all that I could see in a moment by my books.” “Have you sent any goods of that description to the Havannah recently?--Not very recently; I think not for some years.” “Have you sent any goods of that description since you first began to send goods out direct to the coast of Africa?--They have been mixed; I cannot draw a distinction between the two destinations; some have gone to the Havannah, some to the Gallinas.” “Have those supplies of English manufactured goods, which heretofore went to the Havannah, to be used there for promoting the slave trade, been more recently sent direct from this country to the coast of Africa?--No, I do not think that is the case; I should think the contrary is more likely to be the case; but I think we have shipped in some months, or in some years, partly to the Havannah, and partly to the Gallinas.”

Then comes a statement as to the mode of carrying on the trade, which will be read to you, but I do not think it necessary to read it now. “Have you shipped English manufactured goods direct to the coast of Africa, on behalf of both those houses?--Such goods as were in the Augusta, I have shipped for one party only. With regard to the house of Blanco & Carvalho, and the house of Pedro Martinez & Co., with both of them I have carried on a general large business. But to Blanco & Carvalho I never shipped a single piece of goods of any kind, except some sugar mills to the Havannah; and with regard to the house of Pedro Martinez, we have shipped such goods as those by the Augusta.” “From your general knowledge of the trade of the house of Pedro Martinez & Co., is it your opinion that the goods which you so shipped to the coast of Africa were destined to be employed in the slave trade?--I do not know, they may be for any thing that I know.”

Now, gentlemen, I would humbly submit, that if they have that reason to know, that they do believe that the goods are so employed, and if they send the goods, it is not for them to shut their eyes and say, “I do not know.” It is like the case where a person receives stolen goods and no questions are asked, and he gives money in exchange for them. Such a person is as much guilty of receiving stolen goods, as if the person who brought them told him the fact. As to hundreds of persons whom you try for receiving stolen goods, they do not know, they cannot know positively that they are taken out of such a house; but they are delivered to them in such a way, or are concealed in such a way, that there is no doubt they were dishonestly come by, and that is as good evidence as if they had known where they were stolen. So it is not enough for a person to say, “I do not know; they may not for aught I know.” If he believes, and you are satisfied that he must have been aware of the fact, then the case is clear; it is no defence to say, “I shut my eyes, and do not know; they may be for aught I know.”

Then it is asked: “Has it come within your knowledge that the house of Martinez & Co. are exporters from Africa of the native produce of Africa?--No, because I never tried to get any knowledge of their transactions there of any sort.” “Have you ever received consignments from them, or on their behalf of palm oil, gold dust, or ivory, from the coast of Africa?--Never; we never have received any thing from the coast of Africa whatever. With regard to all these transactions, it will perhaps appear strange to the Committee, that I should not know more of the coast of Africa, having shipped things there; but if we had shipped to the amount of 100,000_l._ to the coast of Africa, or carried on any considerable trade there, we should certainly have known more about the coast of Africa; but in transactions of a very large amount, an invoice occasionally of about 2,000_l._ or 3,000_l._ of goods was a thing that we sent as a matter of course, and did not trouble our heads about, especially as the remuneration we got was a mere trifle, not of itself worth pursuing, if it had not been for the general business we had.”

Then the question is put: “Is there any other part of the evidence which has been given that you wish to observe upon?” and he answers, “It is asked here in question 5086, ‘Who was he?’ the answer is, ‘The name is mentioned in the Parliamentary Papers as being connected with the purchase of a slave vessel, Mr. Kidd; and it is mentioned in connexion with that of Mr. Zulueta, of London.’ Now, as to Mr. Kidd, the very first thing I ever knew or ever heard of his name was to see it here. I never heard of his name at all. I never had a letter from him or through him, or knew any thing of the man whatever. That is with regard to myself. With regard to my partners, I can say the same; I have been making inquiries about it. My father knew there was such a man upon the coast, but I did not know even that, though I have managed all this business. Our house never had a letter from the man, or knew any thing about him.” Then it is asked, “You have no connexion with Mr. Kidd in any way?--No, nor any knowledge of him. Then in the next answer it is said, ‘Zulueta, the gentleman in London, to whom the vessel was sent, and who sold her again to her former Spanish owner, is a name well known on the coast in connexion with the slave trade?’ Now what is known on the coast I really cannot pretend to say, but I believe that not many persons can say that which I can say, that neither myself, nor my father, nor my grandfather, nor any body in our firm, has ever had any kind of interest of any sort, or derived any emolument or connexion from the slave trade. My father had at one time an interest in a bankrupt’s estate at the Havannah, upon which he was a creditor. There were some slaves on the estate, and they formed part of the property assignable to the creditors, and my father got the slaves assigned to him; because the other gentlemen and the creditors were not of the same opinion, he got them assigned to him, and made them free; and that is all the connexion we have ever had with any slaves in the world. I do not know how far that may be considered irrelevant to the point, but I state it because we are here mentioned three or four times as connected with slave dealers, as a name well known in connexion with the slave trade. That sort of statement is rather a difficult thing to deal with.” “If it is meant to insinuate by these observations that you ever had any other connexion with the slave trade, than being the shipping agent of goods which were sent to a man who was a dealer in slaves, you entirely deny it?--I assure the Committee, that although I have a general notion as to what interest Blanco and Martinez have in slaves, yet, if I was put upon my oath to make any particular statement, I really could not, because I do not know it. Of course I believe it; but my personal knowledge amounts only to that which the knowledge of what we read in a newspaper amounts to.”

Now, gentlemen, we know too the trade of these parties in the Gallinas. If the prisoner believed that these goods were sent out for the purpose of carrying on the slave trade, and he did send them out, and you are satisfied that the name of Jennings was used as a mere cover, and the whole affair shows his knowledge, then I apprehend he is guilty within this indictment; and it is no defence to say, “If I were put upon my oath, I could not swear that the parties were slave dealers, because I do not know it.” If these goods were sent out in order to accomplish the trading or dealing in slaves, if that was the object of it, the statute says it is criminal, and the party is liable to punishment, for that is all that is ever done in England: the parties who engage in the actual transactions must necessarily reside in Africa. What was meant to be prevented, was the sending any thing out from this coast that could be so used. It is not sufficient to say, “I believe these might be used for the purpose of slave trading:” that would not affect him.

Then he is asked, “There was nothing upon the face of the transactions which you had with those parties, which spoke of a connexion with traffic in slaves?--Nothing whatever.” Why, would any human being believe that there would be any thing said of the kind? That would of course be kept secret. The vessel would not reach her destination, if it was avowed that she was going out for the purpose of slave trading. “It is well known, that, fifty years ago, it was in the ordinary course of business in Cadiz to insure operations in slave trading. My house at that time were underwriters, and it was notorious that a policy of that kind would never enter the doors of our house; and nobody would come to offer such a thing to us upon any terms. It is notorious, both here and in Spain, that we set our faces distinctly against having any interest of any kind in the slave trade.”

Then it is put as a question: “It is further stated, ‘It appears that it is a regular thing sending vessels to him, that is to Mr. Zulueta; if they come to England to him, he sends them to Cadiz, and they get out again to the Havannah and come again into the trade.’ Have you any observation to make upon that?--It is all untrue, the whole of it; I never received a vessel from those gentlemen; there has been nothing of the kind.”

The question is: “Have you any thing further to state upon the subject?--There are several things I have marked; for instance, such as this, ‘You are not bound to suppose that a man will make a bad use of that which he purchases.’ If I wished to put my statement upon that footing, I should have done with it in a moment, for I knew nothing of the use they were put to. I bought goods, but as to what use was made of them I knew nothing whatever. But that is not the position which I wish to assume. It is said here, that we sent goods or vessels to Pedro Blanco. To that I say, that we never sent either goods or vessels to Pedro Blanco.” Now that is certainly very extraordinary, for a very little while before, when the question was put to him, “Have the goods that Mr. Martinez has ordered to be sent to the Gallinas been all sent to the same individual?” he answered “No, to different individuals, sometimes to Pedro Blanco, who was for a certain time an agent of Pedro Martinez.” Then here he says, “We never sent goods or vessels to Pedro Blanco.” “In answer to Question 5474, it is said by Mr. Macaulay, ‘I stated, that it appears that it is a regular thing sending vessels to him, that is to Mr. Zulueta; if they come to England to him he sends them to Cadiz, and they get out again to the Havannah and come again into the trade. My answer was intended to describe only the course of that particular transaction, and not to apply to any other case.’ I never received a single vessel from the coast of Africa at any time, nor any body for us.” “Then that statement is entirely untrue?--Totally, from beginning to end; we never did so; and nobody for us, and nobody to our knowledge, or with our connivance; I deny it in the most distinct manner. In answer to Question 5487, Mr. Macaulay is asked, ‘Have you any thing further to say with regard to the connexion of Zulueta with the slave trade?’ The answer is, ‘I would refer to his connexion with the Gollupchik, which was lately captured. In that case it appeared that the vessel went out direct to the Gallinas from London.’ That is the same vessel as the Augusta, which I have already explained; it formerly bore the name of Gollupchik.” Then the Chairman says, “Have you been concerned in the purchase of vessels frequently for Pedro Martinez or Pedro Blanco?--We have sometimes bought such vessels here as we could resell at the Havannah, such as the Arrogante, which we have bought.” “Upon orders?--Partly on orders, and sometimes on our own account on speculation.” “For what particular trade were they calculated when they reached the Havannah?--I think for the same trade which they were calculated for when they were sold here.” “For the conveyance of merchandise?” The answer is, “As well as anything else. They were sold here publicly.” There is no doubt that vessels which are fitted for carrying goods may also be adapted for carrying slaves. Then Mr. _Forster_ asks the question, “If it was legal for them to be sold here, you considered that it was legal for you to buy them?--I never had any doubt of the legality of buying here, or of selling them again afterwards.” “Mr. _Wood_. But the questions appertaining to the carrying on of the slave trade do not confine themselves within strictly legal grounds, but they have other more important considerations attaching to them?--As to that point there may be a difference of opinion; I would be very sorry indeed, for the sake of catching the approval of other persons, to make a disclaimer of any particular set of opinions whatever; but I believe the only point with which the Committee have to do, is the legal point. As to the moral point, it seems to me, that I am to judge of that; upon that point, I think I have stated quite enough, having stated distinctly that I never had any connexion, nor derived any profit from the slave trade whatever.”