Part 29
10387. _Chairman._] The charge is, that she was engaged in carrying goods to a person engaged in the slave trade; not that she was engaged in the slave trade herself?--I most certainly say that I do not know whether the person is so engaged or not.
10388. Captain _Fitzroy_.] Is it usual to cover a transaction of Spanish trade with the English flag?--I am not aware that a Spanish merchant is prohibited chartering an English vessel.
10389. But is it lawful to employ the British flag to cover a vessel that is not owned by a British subject?--I say that that vessel is owned by a British subject.
10390. Sir _T. D. Acland_.] By whom?--By Captain Jennings.
10391. Was not the money with which she was purchased, the money of Pedro Martinez?--It seems to me that English captains and English subjects are not prohibited from borrowing money from Spaniards; she was bought with money lent by Pedro Martinez to Captain Jennings for the purpose.
10392. Do you mean that the money was a loan to Captain Jennings, at the time he paid it for the vessel?--It was a loan to Captain Jennings.
10393. Do you mean that the ship was then Captain Jennings’s property?--It was.
10394. Was it in his power to sell that ship at any port he pleased?--There was a mortgage upon the vessel.
10395. Mr. W. _Patten_.] You have stated that yours is an agency trade?--It is so; and in the multitude of business, any one can understand that 20,000_l._ in 15 or 20 years, can only be a mere trifle in the business of any merchant, without laying claim to a large business; and in following that business, we have executed shipping orders.
10396. To what part of the coast of Africa has that business been chiefly conducted?--I believe, almost exclusively to the Gallinas.
10397. Have the goods that Mr. Martinez has ordered to be sent to the Gallinas, been all sent to the same individual?--No, to different individuals; sometimes to Pedro Blanco, who was for a certain time an agent of Pedro Martinez on the coast, and sometimes we have sent a bill of lading drawn in this way to order; we have sent it to Pedro Martinez as a voucher against his account.
10398. Do you know the nature of the trade of Pedro Martinez at the Gallinas?--I know from general report that Don Pedro Martinez himself is supposed to deal in slaves, and I believe it is so.
10399. Is he known at the Havannah as a dealer in slaves?--I do not know, but I believe so; I do not know why it should not be known at the Havannah, if it is known in other parts.
10400. _Chairman._] Is a ship which is hypothecated, liable to be foreclosed at any moment, at the discretion of the mortgagee?--It depends altogether upon the terms of the mortgage; if the mortgagee says, “You must give me the money when I ask for it,” of course he must sell the vessel if he has not got any thing else; he would always have to deduct whatever freight had been earned. When the security may be called upon to be effective, depends upon the nature of the transaction between the parties.
10401. Mr. _Forster_.] Your house had nothing to do with any letters that might be put on board the Augusta after she sailed from this country?--Nothing whatever.
10402. The Augusta was seized on the coast of Africa, on the charge of slave trading?--I believe that was the case.
10403. Did you not appeal against that condemnation?--Yes, there is an appeal by the owner.
10404. Before the Privy Council?--Yes.
10405. That appeal is not yet decided?--I believe not.
10406. Sir _T. D. Acland_.] You stated that your transactions with Africa for Martinez have amounted to about 20,000_l._ in 15 or 20 years. What has been the amount of your whole transactions with Blanco & Martinez of the Havannah during that period?--Perhaps 100,000_l._ or a larger sum. For instance, we have received more than 40 or 50 cargoes of sugar from the Havannah, consigned to us, and cigars; and we have received bills of lading of specie shipped at Mexico to be sold here, and bar gold, and things of that sort.
10407. Mr. _Wood_.] Have you reason to suppose that the whole of that large commerce is subservient to the carrying on of the slave trade by the house of Blanco & Martinez at the Havannah?--I do not know; I know that they have large transactions in general business. I know that a short time ago I got 40,000_l._ or 50,000_l._ of Spanish bonds in the market for Martinez. I know that he is a large speculator in Spanish bonds and in securities of state.
10408. Is that speculating in Spanish bonds on account of the house at Cadiz, or the house at Havannah?--Speaking technically, I should say it was on account of the Cadiz house.
10409. The question related to the commerce of the Havannah house?--Pedro Martinez is a Havannah merchant. But with regard to Havannah merchants, we have received large consignments of sugar, cochineal, and sometimes Mexican goods, brought to Havannah and shipped to us here.
10410. In what course of business have the proceeds of those consignments been disposed of; have they gone in sending supplies to the coast of Africa?--Out of that large amount of money 22,000_l._ is the amount of all the goods that we have sent to the coast of Africa in 20 years.
10411. Of all descriptions?--Of all sorts and kinds; I have gone through the invoice-book and found them out.
10412. Have the proceeds generally been disposed of by drafts from the parties themselves to your house?--By the parties at Havannah, when the exchange turns to their advantage.
10413. Have you reason to suppose that a large portion of the trade that they carry on at the Havannah is the slave trade?--I had no reason to know any thing of the kind; I have known more of their transactions with the slave trade since these things have been mooted than I ever knew before; I have had more knowledge of these things lately than I ever had in my life before; and when I say “I,” I beg to state that I ought to state “we,” for all my partners are in the same situation.
10414. Have you been employed by the house at the Havannah to ship manufactured goods from this country to Havannah, suitable for the African trade?--We have sometimes shipped goods to the Havannah of the same kind as those that were in the “Augusta;” cotton goods and other things of that sort.
10415. Has that been recently?--In the course of our operations.
10416. How many years ago?--In the course of these 15 or 20 years that we have been engaged in business with them; all that I could see in a moment by my books.
10417. Have you sent any goods of that description to the Havannah recently?--Not very recently; I think not for some years.
10418. Have you sent any goods of that description since you first began to send goods out direct to the coast of Africa?--They have been mixed; I cannot draw a distinction between the two destinations; some have gone to the Havannah, some to the Gallinas.
10419. Have those supplies of English manufactured goods, which heretofore went to the Havannah, to be used there for promoting the slave trade, been more recently sent direct from this country to the coast of Africa?--No, I do not think that is the case; I should think the contrary is more likely to be the case, but I think we have shipped in some months, or in some years, partly to the Havannah, and partly to the Gallinas.
10420. If the coast of Africa be their ultimate destination, will not they go out at a cheaper cost to the owner if they go direct from this country, than if they go circuitously first to Havannah, and then to the coast of Africa?--I think that is very doubtful indeed, because the freights to Havannah are so miserably low that I believe they can be taken for almost nothing; in Liverpool, English vessels loading for Havannah, load for any thing you will choose to give them.
10421. Has the trade of Pedro Martinez increased or diminished the last few years in that particular kind of goods?--I think it is neither more nor less: I think it is just about the same. I believe for the last three or four years it has been less altogether to both places, but it has diminished equally; I cannot say when it is increased in the one part or diminished in the other.
10422. How long have you conducted the trade upon the coast of Africa?--As I said before, I do not think we have conducted any trade on the coast of Africa, either legal or illegal.
10423. How long have you acted as agents for Martinez, on the coast of Africa?--As long as we have had any connexions with Martinez; it is part and parcel of other operations; that is to say, in the multitude of other operations that have intervened we have shipped goods as I have said.
10424. Did that part of your operations for him spring up after your first connexion with Martinez had commenced?--No, it is part of a mass of business all mixed up together.
10425. Mr. _Forster_.] In the extensive transactions of your house, these shipments, whether to Havannah or the coast of Africa, form a very trifling proportion?--I can only leave the Committee to judge for themselves as to that, after what I have stated.
10426. Mr. _Wood_.] What is the firm of the house at Havannah?--Pedro Martinez & Co.; the Cadiz house is Pedro Martinez only, without the company. Blanco & Carvalho was the firm some time ago: it is now Blanco & Co.
10427. Are the answers which you have given in relation to one of these houses equally applicable to both of them?--There is some difference between them: but in regard to the general business of both of them, what applies to the one applies to the other. I have the same general business with both, and the smallest part of the business has been the shipment of goods, whether to Havannah or to the coast of Africa. The shipments apply to Martinez only.
10428. Have you shipped English manufactured goods direct to the coast of Africa, on behalf of both those houses?--Such goods as were in the Augusta I have shipped for one party only. With regard to the house of Blanco & Carvalho, and the house of Pedro Martinez & Co., with both of them I have carried on a general large business. But to Blanco & Carvalho I never shipped a single piece of goods of any kind, except some sugar mills to the Havannah; and with regard to the house of Pedro Martinez, we have shipped such goods as those by the Augusta.
10429. From your general knowledge of the trade of the house of Pedro Martinez & Co., is it your opinion that the goods which you so shipped to the coast of Africa were destined to be employed in the slave trade?--I do not know; they may be, for any thing that I know.
10430. Has it come within your knowledge that the house of Martinez & Co. are exporters from Africa of the native produce of Africa?--No, because I never tried to get any knowledge of their transactions there of any sort.
10431. Have you ever received consignments from them, or on their behalf, of palm-oil, gold dust, or ivory, from the coast of Africa?--Never; we never have received any thing from the coast of Africa whatever. With regard to all these transactions, it will perhaps appear strange to the Committee that I should not know more of the coast of Africa, having shipped things there; but if we had shipped to the amount of 100,000_l._ to the coast of Africa, or carried on any considerable trade there, we should certainly have known more about the coast of Africa; but in transactions of a very large amount, an invoice occasionally of about 2,000_l._ or 3,000_l._ of goods was a thing that we sent as a matter of course, and did not trouble our heads about, especially as the remuneration we got was a mere trifle, not of itself worth pursuing, if it had not been for the general business we had.
10432. _Chairman._] Is there any other part of the evidence which has been given that you wish to observe upon?--It is asked here, in Question 5086, “Who was he?” the answer is, “The name is mentioned in the Parliamentary Papers as being connected with the purchase of a slave vessel, Mr. Kidd; and it is mentioned in connexion with that of Mr. Zulueta of London.” Now, as to Mr. Kidd, the very first thing I ever knew or ever heard of his name was to see it here. I never heard of his name at all. I never had a letter from him or through him, or knew any thing of the man whatever. That is with regard to myself. With regard to my partners, I can say the same; I have been making inquiries about it. My father knew there was such a man upon the coast, but I did not know even that, though I have managed all this business. Our house never had a letter from the man, or knew any thing about him.
10433. You have no connexion with Mr. Kidd in any way?--No, nor any knowledge of him. Then in the next answer it is said “Zulueta the gentleman in London to whom the vessel was sent, and who sold her again to her former Spanish owner, is a name well known on the coast in connexion with the slave trade.” Now what is known on the coast I really cannot pretend to say; but I believe that not many persons can say that which I can say, that neither myself, nor my father, nor my grandfather, nor any body in our firm, has ever had any kind of interest of any sort, or derived any emolument or connexion from the slave trade. My father had at one time an interest in a bankrupt’s estate at the Havannah, upon which he was a creditor. There were some slaves on the estate, and they formed part of the property assignable to the creditors, and my father got the slaves assigned to him; because the other gentlemen and the creditors were not of the same opinion, he got them assigned to him, and made them free; and that is all the connexion we have ever had with any slaves in the world. I do not know how far that may be considered irrelevant to the point, but I state it because we are here mentioned three or four times as connected with slave dealers, as a name well known in connexion with the slave trade. That sort of statement is rather a difficult thing to deal with.
10434. If it is meant to insinuate by these observations that you ever had any other connexion with the slave trade, than being the shipping agent of goods which were sent to a man who was a dealer in slaves, you entirely deny it?--I assure the Committee, that although I have a general notion as to what interest Blanco and Martinez have in slaves, yet, if I was put upon my oath to make any particular statement, I really could not, because I do not know it. Of course I believe it; but my personal knowledge amounts only to that which the knowledge of what we read in a newspaper amounts to.
10435. There was nothing upon the face of the transactions which you had with those parties which spoke of a connexion with traffic in slaves?--Nothing whatever. It is well known, that, fifty years ago, it was in the ordinary course of business in Cadiz to insure operations in slave trading. My house at that time were underwriters, and it was notorious that a policy of that kind would never enter the doors of our house; and nobody would come to offer such a thing to us upon any terms. It is notorious, both here and in Spain, that we set our faces distinctly against having any interest of any kind in the slave trade.
10436. It is further stated, “It appears that it is a regular thing sending vessels to him, that is to Mr. Zulueta; if they come to England to him he sends them to Cadiz, and they get out again to the Havannah and come again into the trade.” Have you any observation to make upon that?--It is all untrue, the whole of it; I never received a vessel from those gentlemen; there has been nothing of the kind.
10437. Have you any thing further to state upon the subject?--There are several things I have marked; for instance, such as this, “You are not bound to suppose that a man will make a bad use of that which he purchases.” If I wished to put my statement upon that footing, I should have done with it in a moment, for I knew nothing of the use they were put to. I bought goods, but as to what use was made of them I knew nothing whatever. But that is not the position which I wish to assume. It is said here that we sent goods or vessels to Pedro Blanco. To that I say, that we never sent either goods or vessels to Pedro Blanco. In answer to Question 5474 it is said by Mr. Macaulay, “I stated ‘that it appears that it is a regular thing sending vessels to him, that is to Mr. Zulueta; if they come to England to him he sends them to Cadiz, and they get out again to the Havannah and come again into the trade.’ My answer was intended to describe only the course of that particular transaction and not to apply to any other case.” I never received a single vessel from the coast of Africa at any time, nor any body for us.
10438. Mr. _Forster_.] Then that statement is entirely untrue?--Totally, from beginning to end; we never did so, and nobody for us; and nobody to our knowledge, or with our connivance; I deny it in the most distinct manner. In answer to Question 5487, Mr. Macaulay is asked, “Have you any thing further to say with regard to the connexion of Zulueta with the slave trade?” The answer is, “I would refer to his connexion with the Gollupchik, which was lately captured. In that case it appeared that the vessel went out direct to the Gallinas from London.” That is the same vessel as the Augusta, which I have already explained; it formerly bore the name of Gollupchik.
10439. _Chairman._] Have you been concerned in the purchase of vessels frequently for Pedro Martinez or Pedro Blanco?--We have sometimes bought such vessels here as we could resell at the Havannah, such as the Arrogante, which we have bought.
10440. Upon orders?--Partly on orders, and sometimes on our own account on speculation.
10441. Mr. _Wood_.] For what particular trade were they calculated when they reached the Havannah?--I think for the same trade which they were calculated for when they were sold here.
10442. For the conveyance of merchandise?--As well as any thing else. They were sold here publicly.
10443. Mr. _Forster_.] If it was legal for them to be sold here, you considered that it was legal for you to buy them?--I never had any doubt of the legality of buying here, or of selling them again afterwards.
10444. Mr. _Wood_.] But the questions appertaining to the carrying on of the slave trade do not confine themselves within strictly legal grounds, but they have other more important considerations attaching to them?--As to that point, there may be a difference of opinion; I would be very sorry indeed, for the sake of catching the approval of other persons, to make a disclaimer of any particular set of opinions whatever; but I believe the only point with which the Committee have to do, is the legal point. As to the moral point, it seems to me, that I am to judge of that; upon that point, I think I have stated quite enough, having stated distinctly that I never had any connexion, nor derived any profit from the slave trade whatever.
10445. Sir _T. D. Acland_.] You have stated in your letter, that your principle is, that of “not wishing to derive profit or advantage from the sufferings of humanity, whether avoidable or unavoidable,” and you have acted upon that principle?--That is the principle upon which we have acted.
10446. And you do not find that acting upon that principle has interfered with the fair success of your commerce?--I do not think it would; if it would, we should not care much about that, because we are in a position which is well known to many persons here, as well as to persons abroad. In 5495, Mr. Macaulay is asked, “What evidence have we that Zulueta knew that in dealing with Pedro Blanco, the goods he sold would be used for the barter of slaves.” I have said, that I had nothing to do with him; I never sold any goods to Pedro Blanco. The answer here is, “Any body engaged in the Spanish trade would be aware that Pedro Blanco was the largest slave trader in the world.” It may be so, that he is the largest in the world; but I can only say that the largest is very little, if that is the case, for I have spoken of 22,000_l._ as being the amount of the bills we have paid for him, which I have here (_producing the same_), to the order of several houses established in Sierra Leone, for goods, I suppose bought for him, amounting to about 22,100_l._ I only mention this with reference to the notoriety of his being such a large slave dealer, that it was impossible to shut your eyes to it. Then with respect to what is said in answer 5502, I only wish to remark upon this, that what I have answered already I believe applies to this. It is said, “I think that a man who viewed the slave trade in a proper light, would have considered it improper to be so engaged.” I have observed already upon that, that the propriety or impropriety of our conduct is a different thing from the question whether we have been legally or illegally engaged, although the question with which I am now concerned is a general disclaimer of any participation in the slave trade.
10447. You agree with Mr. Macaulay’s opinion, “That a man who viewed the slave trade in a proper light, would have considered it improper to be so engaged”?--I do not know whether my opinions would agree with Mr. Macaulay’s upon this subject, but I think that a man who in any way tried to elude the laws of his country, would be acting against his conscience in the highest degree; that is my impression of it, and that is what I mean to say; and with regard to the slave trade, I mean to carry out that which I have stated in my letter, that I look upon it as an evil, and I would wish to add nothing to that evil in any way, but to diminish what I could of it. As to the moral criminality of all the parties, I suppose that depends upon other considerations. Then in the Evidence of Captain Hill, in answer to question 7161, it is stated here, “the Custom-house officers in Liverpool may be totally ignorant of the trade carried on at the Gallinas, and also totally ignorant of the trade carried on by Pedro Martinez & Co. at the Havannah.” All our shipments have been made through the Custom-house, giving the destinations of the vessels and every thing, and what we did was illegal; we should consider ourselves not justly treated altogether, in being allowed to do that which we say we are going to do, and then after it is done being told it is illegal, although before it is done we have the very sanction of the parties to do it, because we have no concern in it beyond the shipment, and the shipment is publicly made. In answer to Question 7165, it is said, “I have never met a vessel belonging to Messrs. Zulueta & Co. on the coast of Africa.” Of course, we never had one, and therefore he never could meet with one. Then in answer to Question 7958*, Mr. Hill states that he found a letter, dated London, 20th of August 1840, stating, “We cannot exceed 500_l._ for the vessel in question, such as described in your letter; if you cannot therefore succeed at those limits, we must give up the purchase.” But he says, “there is a note to the letter, which says, ‘According to our Liverpool mode, note, you will go on shore to the Salthouse Dock.’” Now I have been looking at our letter-book, and I am quite willing to suppose that the person who has stated this might not wish, of course, to state any thing that was incorrect; but this is altogether unintelligible to me. The Salthouse Dock is well known to every person acquainted with Liverpool; it is one of the docks in which vessels go and unload, and that is all. Our house might say that our custom was to send our vessels there; we generally do; but I do not understand this at all.
10448. _Chairman._ You do not understand what bearing it has upon the question?--I think the words must be badly copied; there is no such thing in our letter-book as it appears here; it is quite unintelligible to me.