Part 28
7080. Mr. _Forster_.] In your former evidence, in answer to question 6674, in reference to the importance of British settlements for the suppression of the slave trade, you say “I spoke more particularly of Sierra Leone, at the same time the connection of the Gambia trade with the slave trade is a fact that there is no doubt about;” are the Committee to understand that you mean that Sierra Leone and the Gambia are on the same footing in that respect?--I think they have assisted the slave trade in very different ways; one way in which they have both assisted, is by the sale of vessels to the slave dealers; but the trade in the Gambia goes hand in hand with the slave trade of Bissao, as I before stated; at Sierra Leone it has been more directly by the sale of vessels, and some few goods passing down through their hands to the Gallinas and elsewhere.
7081. Will you have the goodness to explain to the Committee your meaning in saying that “the connection of the Gambia trade with the slave trade is a fact that there is no doubt about”?--I should have said the external trade of the Gambia; the trade up the river is another thing. As regards the external trade of the Gambia, the greater part of the trade is through the hands of notorious slave dealers, who sell produce, and give money to the Gambia merchants, and who in return receive goods from the Gambia; and those goods are the means again of purchasing slaves and produce; that is a connection which I consider is a very direct one.
7082. _Chairman._] You do not mean, that merchants trading at the Gambia are themselves personally interested in any slave trade adventures, or have any share in the profit or loss of such transactions?--No; I have no reason to suppose that such is the case directly.
7083. Sir _T. D. Acland_.] Do you mean to say that the goods so furnished to the slave dealer are essential to the maintenance of the slave traffic?--I believe they might get goods elsewhere, if those were not supplied by the Gambia merchants.
7084. But still goods from some part are essential to the maintenance of the slave traffic?--Indispensable; all their slaves are bought with British goods.
7085. _Chairman._] Could they not obtain their slaves solely with money?--I think not.
7086. Sir _T. D. Acland_.] What is the state of civilization of the people upon the Gambia?--The banks of the Gambia have been disturbed for several years by a man of the name of Kemingtang, and a great deal too much forbearance has been used towards him. I do not think the people in general upon the banks are in an advanced state of civilization, by any means.
7087. Its progress has been interrupted by this man’s disturbance?--This man has occasioned mischief, but I do not think it was making progress to any extent.
7088. Mr. _Forster_.] You appear to distinguish between legitimate and illegitimate trade by the mode of payment; that is to say, according to whether the payment is in money or in produce?--I have already said that, strictly speaking, in the strict sense of the term, “legitimate trade,” that is, trade which has no communication with the slave trade in any way whatever, is that in which goods are exchanged for produce.
7089. Would you recommend or expect that a trader on the coast of Africa should refuse dollars in payment of his goods to any body?--In cases where he knew that no use could be made of those goods but to purchase slaves, I think he would be bound to do so; and I think if he did not he should be subjected to the penalties of the Act.
7090. Supposing the British traders of Bissao were to refuse money from the Spaniards, would you recommend that they should refuse money also from the natives in exchange for their goods?--I have stated that I do not recommend that they should refuse money from any body, except in cases where the trade must necessarily be going on to supply the slave trade exclusively. In cases where slave trade and produce trade exist together, I do not think it would be possible, and I do not think it would be desirable to endeavour to prevent the trade from going on; I have stated that fully in the former part of my evidence.
7091. _Chairman._] You would, if possible, devise some means by which English trade, although in lawful goods, with settlements purely confined to slave trading, such as the Gallinas, should be prevented?--Precisely; that is my view.
7092. As long as the prize vessels are sold at Sierra Leone, will there not be great practical difficulty in preventing those vessels getting ultimately into the hands of the slave dealers, whether you can prevent it at the first hand or not?--I think the longer the interval that elapsed before they got into the hands of the slave dealers, the better. I think that British subjects selling vessels adapted only for the slave trade into the hands of notorious slave dealers, should be rendered subject to penalties; but I admit the difficulty of preventing the eventual return of such vessels into the hands of slave dealers.
7093. You think it very desirable, if possible, that the system of breaking up vessels should be further extended?--I think it should be applied universally to slave ships.
7094. Is there any English law which you would wish to see amended in that respect?--Under the Act 5 Geo. 4, under which a vessel in British waters would be condemned for carrying on the slave trade, there is no provision for breaking up the vessel; and consequently vessels condemned under that Act are sold to the highest bidder. I certainly think it is desirable that a clause should be inserted in the act for the purpose.
7095. Mr. _Forster_.] You have stated in your former evidence that the public auctioneer is obliged to knock down the vessel to the highest bidder. Would you recommend that the public auctioneer should be subject to penalties for selling a vessel to the agent of a slave dealer?--I have before stated that he is not subject to penalties; he is a Government agent employed according to law.
7096. Captain _Fitzroy_.] You have stated that the cruizers should be withdrawn from the western coast of the Atlantic, their efforts against the slave trade there being comparatively ineffectual. Can you give any further reason for that opinion than the one you have expressed?--The cruizers upon the coast of Cuba or Brazil, cruize under much greater disadvantages than they formerly did upon the coast of Africa, before the Equipment articles came into force; and moreover, the immense number of merchant vessels always in sight about those parts of the coast is, I think, another reason against attempting to suppress the slave trade upon that side of the Atlantic. And there is besides another subject of greatly increased importance, the inconvenience that would arise from the exercise of the right of search in that quarter.
7097. _Chairman._] You mean to say, that in consequence of coming into contact with a much greater number of vessels of different descriptions, the right of search, if exercised there, would be more obnoxious, and lead to greater difficulties with the countries upon whose vessels we should exercise it?--It could never be fully exercised with regard to the vessels that were there, and the exercise of it would involve 50 searches for one upon the coast of Africa.
7098. In the one case you only have to search the African trade, in the other case you have to search the whole trade of those countries on the American coast?--Yes.
7099. Captain _Fitzroy_.] You have stated the disproportion between the emolument derived by the captains of cruizers from the capture of slavers after the embarkation of the slaves, compared with that derived from the capture of empty vessels, to be very great, and altogether unjust; can you give the Committee any further information upon this subject?--I have here an account of two vessels, captured under the Equipment articles by me, one measuring 57 tons and the other 43 tons; the aggregate of the proceeds of both these vessels for distribution to the captors was 576_l._ 6_s._ 5_d._ Another vessel of 48 tons was captured by me, with slaves on board; the proceeds for distribution upon this single vessel amounted to 1,654_l._ 19_s._ 5_d._, nearly three times as much as the two empty ships, measuring together 100 tons.
7100. _Chairman._] Can you state how many slaves could have been carried by the two empty ships, in case they had been allowed to have been filled?--There might have been 700 slaves in those two ships.
7101. Sir _T. D. Acland_.] How many were there in the other?--Forty-eight tons and 350 slaves. With regard to the capture of these vessels, the empty vessels were captured upon the principle of blockade, a service of the most harassing, tiresome, and arduous description. The full vessel was, as it must be in most cases, captured by chance.
7102. How would you propose to arrange it?--I would take the whole of the sums payable upon captured vessels during any given year, and upon that I would calculate what it amounted to per ton, and I would give that bounty for the future upon every vessel, as a substitute for the head-money, for the payments now made.
7103. Captain _Fitzroy_.] You have stated in your former evidence, that, six weeks after you were at New Cestos destroying the slave factory, a slaver was there again; can you offer any explanation of that circumstance?--The slave factory at New Cestos was abandoned in December 1840. The factories were left standing, to form a palm-oil factory, at the request of some British traders. I however understood that the prince was endeavouring to get a slave-dealer to re-establish himself in this factory, and I therefore, in the middle of April, burned down the buildings. On the 8th of June a new factor arrived from the Havannah and landed his goods, but no slaves were taken away till October. Three or four days after the slaves were carried off the blockade was re-established, and there could be no more.
7104. It has been stated, in answer to question 5968, that you thought you had put an effectual stop to the slave trade at the Gallinas by the destruction of the factories; was that your own opinion?--I beg to refer the Committee to the third paragraph from the bottom of a letter in the correspondence relative to the Gallinas, at page 9, in which I state that “I believe they will endeavour still to prosecute the slave trade.”
7105. Mr. _Forster_.] Is it your opinion that the British traders on the coast of Africa, and those connected with them, are more deeply interested in the suppression of the slave trade than any other class of British subjects?--In general they are; but there are some instances in which particular merchants derive great advantages from the connexion. There can be no question that it is for the interests of commerce that the slave trade should be put down; but there may be particular instances where British merchants derive great profits from their connexion with it.
7106. But generally, you are of opinion that the British merchants are decidedly interested in the trade being put down?--I have no doubt of it at all.
7107. _Chairman._] You believe that wherever the trade in slaves is put down, a more profitable trade might be carried on in its place in the form of manufactures in exchange for produce?--Undoubtedly more profitable, both to the natives and to the persons trading with them.
7108. When you speak of individuals being interested, you mean that there are individuals incidentally benefited by the commerce which the slave trade gives rise to in that country?--Precisely; that is what I mean. For instance, supposing the slave traders at the Gallinas had been supplied by a British commercial house, that probably would have been more profitable to them than any prospect of produce trade after the slave trade of the Gallinas was destroyed.
_Lunæ, 25º die Julii, 1842._
MEMBERS PRESENT.
Sir T. D. Acland. Mr. Aldam. Viscount Courtenay. Viscount Ebrington. Captain Fitzroy. Mr. Forster. Sir R. H. Inglis. Mr. Wilson Patten. Mr. G. W. Wood.
VISCOUNT SANDON in the chair.
Captain the Honourable _Joseph Denman_, R. N. called in; and further examined.
10646. _Chairman._] What evidence had you of those parties being British subjects whom you brought back to Sierra Leone?--I found them in the barracoons mixed with other slaves for exportation; I took them to Sierra Leone; they were examined, both speaking English, by the Governor of Sierra Leone in my presence; the opinion of the Governor of Sierra Leone was, that it was most undoubtedly the fact that they were British subjects; one was a liberated African and the other a Creole, born in Sierra Leone.
10647. Mr. _Forster_.] Do you consider them, under those circumstances, as fairly and properly entitled to the appellation of British subjects?--As completely as any person in this room.
10648. Was the circumstance of your finding them at the Gallinas the ground upon which you took your proceedings there and burnt the place?--It was the principal ground of those proceedings; the grounds have been already stated in my former evidence; I think that was the most important ground.
EVIDENCE OF PEDRO DE ZULUETA, JUN., ESQ. TAKEN BEFORE THE SELECT COMMITTEE ON WEST COAST OF AFRICA.
_Veneris, 22º die Junii, 1842._
MEMBERS PRESENT.
Sir T. D. Acland. Mr. Aldam. Viscount Courtenay. Captain Fitzroy. Mr. Foster. Mr. W. Hamilton. Sir R. H. Inglis. Mr. Milnes. Mr. Wilson Patten. Lord Stanley. Mr. G. W. Wood.
VISCOUNT SANDON, in the chair.
_Pedro de Zulueta_, Jun. Esq. called in; and examined.
10370. _Chairman._] You have seen some statements that have been made to this Committee upon the subject of a transaction in which your house was engaged; have you any observations to offer upon it?--I received from the Clerk of the Committee a letter accompanying a copy of certain evidences, which are Mr. Macaulay’s evidence of the 10th of June, the 14th of June, and the 15th of June; and Captain Hill’s evidence of the 29th of June, the 4th of July, and the 6th of July. I would beg, first of all, to refer to the letter which I had the honour to address to the Chairman. My reason for wishing to be examined before this Committee was, that the statements contained in the evidence which I have mentioned are all of them more or less incorrect, some of them totally so. I will begin by stating what has been the nature of our, I will not say trade, for we have not had a trade ourselves, but of our connexion with the shipment of goods to the coast of Africa. We have been established as merchants for upwards of 70 years in Spain, for nearly 20 years in this country, and we have had connexions to a large extent in Spain, and in the Havannah, and in South America, and several other places; among them we have had connexions or commercial intercourse with the house of Pedro Martinez & Co. of the Havannah, and with Blanco & Cavallo of Havannah. With them we have carried on a regular business in consignments of sugars and of cochineal, which they have made to us; and in specie received by the packets from Mexico and other places. We have several times acted for them here in this country, buying raw cotton for instance at Liverpool, and re-selling it very largely; that has been principally with Pedro Martinez & Co.
10371. They are general merchants?--They are general merchants, and their transactions with us have been of that nature. As general merchants we have bought stock here for them rather largely; and in the course of those transactions we have received orders from Don Pedro Martinez & Co. of the Havannah, and from Don Pedro Martinez of Cadiz, to ship goods for the coast of Africa; never from Pedro Blanco, and never from Blanco & Cavallo.
10372. Have you received orders from Pedro Martinez for shipments for the coast of Africa?--Yes; in the course of business we have received orders to ship goods upon the funds in our hands belonging to them; and we have shipped the goods described in the letter, and sent the bills of lading to Pedro Martinez; but beyond that we have never had any returns from the coast of Africa, nor any control of any kind from the moment the cargoes left the ports of this country.
10373. You have had no interest in the result of the venture?--No, nor any notice, nor any acquaintance, nor any correspondence with any one upon the coast; we have never had any kind of knowledge, either subsequently or previously, of the shipments, except the mere fact of buying the goods and shipping them.
10374. Your whole interest was a commission upon the transaction--Entirely. The extent of those transactions has been so limited in the course of nearly 20 years that we have been in this country, that the amount of the invoices that we have sent out has been something like 20,000_l._ or 22,000_l._ in the course of all that time. That is one part of the operations we have performed. The other operations are the acceptance of bills drawn by people on the coast; among them Pedro Blanco when he was there, upon ourselves, on account of Blanco & Cavallo, of Havannah, upon funds which Blanco & Cavallo had in our hands: for instance, the people at the Havannah, or in Spain, open a credit with us, and we accept the bills of the parties on that credit with us, just the same as we should do with any other correspondent in any other part.
10375. You would have funds in your hands, arising from some commercial transactions between you and the Havannah merchant or the Cadiz merchant; and Pedro Blanco, upon the coast of Africa, would draw upon the credit of those funds, being authorised by the Cadiz or the Havannah merchant?--Yes; and if Pedro Blanco had drawn 5_s._ beyond that, we should have protested, and in some instances we have protested. With regard to the vessel alluded to in this Report, the Augusta, our part in that concern has been simply that which appears from one of the letters: that is to say, Pedro Martinez, of Cadiz, had made choice of Jennings to buy the vessel, and lent him money to buy the vessel; because Pedro Martinez wanted him to have a vessel in the trade, for the purpose of taking his goods to their destination. I have now described the three kinds of operations in which we have been concerned, and our knowledge of all of them terminated with the execution of the orders of our correspondents. We had nothing more to do than to follow the orders of the purchaser in shipping the goods. With regard to the purchase of the vessel by Jennings; Jennings is a man who has been employed some time by Martinez; he has served Martinez as a chartered captain, and Martinez having been satisfied with his services, agreed to lend him that money on the security of the vessel, provided it did not exceed a certain amount; which was all the interference we had with it, just to see that a certain amount was not exceeded, 500_l._ or whatever it was.
10376. Then you were to furnish Captain Jennings with money for the purchase within a limited amount, say 500_l._, credit being given to him upon you by Pedro Martinez, of Cadiz?--That is just the point.
10377. Captain _Fitzroy_.] The Augusta being purchased by money advanced by your house for Martinez & Company of Cadiz; and she then became the property of Pedro Martinez?--No, she became the property of Jennings; the money was lent to Jennings, and he bound himself by giving security on the vessel to answer for the amount. It is a mercantile operation which is not unusual.
10378. Mr. _Forster_.] You advanced the money to Captain Jennings for the purchase of the vessel, Jennings transferring the vessel to you as a security for the amount so advanced?--That is just the description of operation, which is a very general one in business.
10379. _Chairman._] What is the object of such an operation?--I know very little or almost next to nothing of the operations in those parts of the world; but the object of such an operation I apprehend to be this: a vessel chartered with a stranger must be governed by the different clauses of the charter-party; the charterer must be limited to time and to places; and by Martinez having the vessel owned by a man with whom he could have a better understanding than with others, he might always send more advantageously articles from the Havannah to the Gallinas, and from here to the Gallinas. When I say articles, I mean legal articles.
10379*. What advantage would there be in Mr. Jennings taking the articles rather as the owner than as captain under Martinez; was not he commander of the vessel as well as owner of the vessel?--Yes.
10380. He is made the owner, instead of being captain?--He is the owner as well as the captain of the vessel; he stands indebted to Martinez, and gives a bottomry bond for the vessel.
10380*. Does Mr. Jennings upon this transaction make all the freight to his own profit?--Certainly, whatever he does is to his own profit.
10381. He is not, then, an agent for Martinez?--No, he is a person to whom Martinez lends the money to buy the vessel; whatever profit he derives is his own. Martinez has this advantage, which to a mercantile man is very perceptible, that he has got a charter with a man who stands in that relation towards him which gives him a sort of control over the vessel. If I as a stranger charter a vessel for Martinez, and he has spent one, two, or five days more in landing goods than the charter-party allows, I should make a claim for it; I should say, “You must keep to the charter.” Now, when Jennings is indebted to him for the favour of a loan for the vessel, he is not upon a similar footing.
10382. So that he gets the vessel more under his own control?--Yes; in saying this I am putting an hypothetical case, but I do not know the mind of Martinez himself.
10383. Mr. _Forster_.] You acted in this transaction merely as agent in the usual manner, as you would have acted for any house in any part of the world?--Exactly; if Martinez had told me, “You have got 500_l._ in your hands, pay that to Captain Jennings,” I should have known nothing more of the transaction; I should have paid the money. But Martinez did not wish to go beyond a certain amount; and he says, “You exercise control, do not allow the man to pay more than 500_l._ for the vessel.”
10384. But beyond the purchase of the vessel and the shipment of the goods, the other arrangements and the subsequent transactions were entirely between Jennings and Martinez & Co.?--Most assuredly; except with the order of Martinez, I do not know how we could have done any thing with him in any way.
10385. Captain _Fitzroy_.] Though the process of hypothecating a vessel may be usual between British merchants, is it usual to cover a transaction of Spanish slave trade with the British flag, by means of such an arrangement as that described to have taken place in the case of the Augusta?--In order to answer that question, it seems to me that it is fair that I should ask where is the transaction of covering, and where is the slave trade transaction? I know positively of my own knowledge, that there is no such thing at all connected with the Augusta. If I had an opportunity, I could make my affidavit of that.
10386. Sir _T. D. Acland_.] Do you mean that you know that the Augusta was not engaged in any slaving transactions during the voyage upon which she left Liverpool?--Most assuredly not; in fact my testimony is hardly required of that, because every thing proves that. When she was detained, it was never said that she was upon a slaving operation at all. Before she left this port, after she was bought, she was completely rendered useless for that purpose.