Part 25

6829. And also in the southern states of the North American Union?--I have no reason to believe that any slave trade whatever exists there, except the slave trade from one part of the coast to another; I believe that no new slaves are introduced.

6830. Are you aware that they buy and sell slaves throughout the southern states of the Union?--Yes; I am speaking of the external slave trade; slavery implies the right of selling slaves within their territory; I mean that they have no external slave trade, to the best of my belief.

6831. Do you draw any distinction between slaves sold and shipped from Virginia to New Orleans, as compared with slaves shipped from the coast of Africa?--Unquestionably; they were at Virginia in the same condition as they are again at New Orleans; it is merely a change of locality in the same country or state, quite distinct from the African slave trade.

6832. Are the slaves shipped from the coast of Africa in the same condition in the West Indies as they were in previously to their being shipped from the coast of Africa?--No, decidedly they are not; they are in a very different condition in Africa from what they are in the West Indies; they are not equally slaves; their condition is entirely different. The whole bearing and meaning of the trade is as different as possible, in my opinion.

6833. Do you draw any distinction, in a moral point of view, between selling and shipping men from the state of Virginia to the Mississippi, as compared with selling and shipping men from Africa to the West Indies?--I consider the case is altogether different; as distinct as possible.

6834. Do you consider that there is any difference in a moral point of view?--Yes, I think there is a difference in a moral point of view. In my opinion, the distinction between commerce with slave states in America and commerce with slave factories in Africa is this: the commerce with the slave factories in Africa, in the cases I have before contemplated, goes there entirely for the purpose of purchasing and making men slaves: the commerce with the slave states of America has no such tendency whatever; the slaves are already property. In my opinion, there is the broadest distinction between the cases.

6835. Then you disapprove of selling goods to persons connected with the slave trade on the coast of Africa, not on account of the moral difference of the act, but on account of the difference of the tendency and consequences of that act?--I consider that, in every case, the dealings of British merchants with slave dealers, although their produce trade may be mixed with the slave trade, is, in a very high degree, objectionable and improper; but, at the same time, I do not think that we can separate them; I do not think it would be politic, or for the benefit of Africa, or for the cause that England has in hand, to endeavour to carry the distinction between them too far.

6836. But if it be wrong or immoral to have dealings with persons engaged in the slave trade, is it not equally wrong for a British merchant to ship and sell goods to a slave merchant in Cuba and Brazil, as it is to sell goods to a slave dealer on the coast of Africa, so far as the moral question is concerned?--I think so, decidedly, supposing those goods are intended to go into the slave trade, and it is known that they will go into the slave trade.

6837. Are you not aware, from your observation on the coast, that most of the goods, if not all, the cotton goods in particular, brought to the coast of Africa by Spanish and Portuguese slave dealers, are manufactured in this country?--I am perfectly aware of it; I consider this highly objectionable, in the same way as the mixed trade upon the coast is; but I do not think it would be wise to interfere with it.

6838. The Committee cannot but highly appreciate and deeply sympathise with your benevolent feelings on this subject; but do you consider yourself sufficiently familiar with the searching effects of commerce, to pronounce a sound opinion on the collateral tendency of trade to supersede the slave trade on the coast of Africa, even when carried on with persons connected with the slave trade?--I consider myself perfectly qualified to give opinions, so far as I have given them. The opinions I have given, I feel myself perfectly qualified to give, and to support.

6839. _Chairman._] You do not see any indirect advantage in dealing with persons solely engaged in the slave trade, by means of lawful goods, sufficient to counterbalance the direct evil of the facilities given by that means to the slave trade?--The case of the Gallinas, I think, is a perfect answer to the question; no good whatever is derived from the exchange of the commodities of the civilized world for slaves. There is no export of produce in that district of the coast. I conceive that this commerce has no good effect whatever.

6840. You think it promotes no industry?--On the contrary, it annihilates it.

6841. Mr. _Forster_.] You have stated that there has been no British commerce carried on there to any extent?--In the Return which I have already referred to, in the 14th page of this correspondence, is given an account of the trade which formerly did exist, and which, under the withering influence of the slave trade, has been utterly destroyed. There is no doubt that there was considerable export trade at one time from the Gallinas; they exported rice, and they exported produce. Now they are obliged to import rice to feed themselves; cattle, which were formerly abundant, are now hardly to be procured, and then only at an enormous expense. They used to get cattle from Sierra Leone. Indeed, the only case I know of any communication with Sierra Leone, while I was last on the coast, was, in one or two instances of very small boats, not above six or seven tons, which had in one instance cattle and sheep on board. In the second instance I did not search her.

6842. You have stated that the Gallinas has been principally supplied with goods for the slave trade by foreign ships, and not by British traders?--That has been my statement.

6843. You have stated also that you would have felt it your duty to prevent English trading vessels entering there?--Under certain circumstances, which I have detailed.

6844. Are you not of opinion that if British commerce had been encouraged there, and more particularly if a British settlement had been formed there, British commerce would have been of material assistance in discountenancing and putting down the slave trade at the Gallinas?--Legitimate commerce at the Gallinas has been eradicated and annihilated by the sole influence of the slave trade. It existed there, and the slave trade annihilated it. Had a British settlement been formed there, the results might have been different.

6845. _Chairman._] Do you think the results would have been different if the same goods had been brought by English ships carrying on the same trade as the foreign ships?--I do not see, had they been brought in the same way as the goods were brought in the foreign ships, how any difference would have been made. It would have been the same unmixed evil as it has been when carried on under the American flag.

6846. Mr. _Forster._] Then it is only by the formation of British settlements that you think the advantages of British commerce could be fully realized there?--I think the advantages of legitimate commerce will commence when they make their minds up that the slave trade will no longer supply them with what they have been hitherto accustomed to receive, and that that might be further assisted by the formation of a settlement, I have no doubt whatever.

6847. Sir _R. H. Inglis_.] Have you any means of knowing how the slaves in the barracoons at the Gallinas were procured for the slave market; whether they were born in slavery, or were made slaves for the mere purpose of sale?--The fact that the general system of society in Africa is slavery, I believe is universally admitted. Those people were brought down from the interior to meet the demand upon the coast.

6848. Do you mean the Committee to understand that in your opinion they were born slaves, and brought up to the slave market, or that, having been free, they were made slaves for the slave market?--In my opinion they were all born in a state of domestic slavery, answering to a sort of villeinage in the early periods of our own history. But my belief is, that no African chief dare sell his domestic slaves in this way, except occasionally under the pretence of crimes committed, or of debts owing; they are generally, I fancy, either kidnapped or taken in wars, or in the ways I before mentioned.

6849. The kidnapping and the wars being for the purpose of supplying the slave market?--Undoubtedly, in my opinion.

6850. _Chairman._] Do you derive your information of the internal condition of the Africans from investigations of your own, or from what you have read?--Partly from inquiries I made while in shore at the Gallinas and up the Nunez.

6851. You do not believe that, generally speaking, the chiefs, the owners of slaves in Africa, have the right of selling their own slaves?--By no means; I believe they dare not do it; that the population would at once rise against it.

6852. Mr. _Aldam_.] Do you consider that the slaves are generally prisoners taken in wars that have incidentally arisen, or that there are wars carried on for the purpose of making slaves?--I believe both to a great extent; I believe that wars are frequently begun for the purpose of taking prisoners and making slaves, and frequently by agreement between two chiefs, who dare not sell their own people. They go to war in order to take each other’s people.

6853. Mr. _Forster_.] Did you hear of instances of that kind while you were in the country?--I have heard statements of that kind from persons conversant with the country up the rivers, and also from the natives.

6854. Captain _Fitzroy_.] Referring to the letter which you have produced from the chiefs of Sea-bar, was that letter written by a native?--It was written undoubtedly by a negro, whether a native of Sierra Leone, trading to Sea-bar, or whether one of the chiefs there, I cannot say; but I have seen natives write infinitely better than that.

6855. It is signed by Henry Tucker; who was that Henry Tucker?--He was one of the chiefs of the country in the neighbourhood of Sea-bar; they are a family who have dominion there.

6856. Was that chief, Tucker, educated at Sierra Leone?--I cannot say; I believe he was, but I am not sure about it.

6857. (To Captain _Hill_.) Are you aware by whom that letter was written?--I was at Sea-bar frequently, and have frequently seen Harry Tucker, and have also seen a person whom he introduced to me as his secretary, who, on conversation, I ascertained to be Harry Tucker’s son, and this son was writing letters for him; and I asked his son where he learned to write, and he told me that he was educated at Sierra Leone; and Harry Tucker also told me, that he sent two or three of his sons to Sierra Leone to learn to read and write.

6858. Then, it is your belief that that letter was written by a son of a native chief, who was educated at Sierra Leone?--Yes.

6859. Mr. _Aldam_, to Captain _Denman_.] Where is Sea-bar?--It lies between Sierra Leone and Gallinas. It is the passage between the south-eastern end of the Sherboro’ Island and the main land.

6860. Captain _Fitzroy_.] Is “Sea-bar,” the place named in the letter, the same as the River “Shebar,” in the map?--It is the same.

6861. Mr. _Hamilton_.] Had you any opportunity of making any observation as to the climate of the Gallinas; how far it would be fit for Europeans to live there?--As far as my observations went, they were rather favourable, for I went in at not a very good time of the year, and, out of upwards of 100 men, I think that only two or three deaths occurred. I believe only two men died after having been on shore a week.

6862. Going up in the boats?--Yes.

6863. Is the ground swampy, or is there any high ground in the neighbourhood?--The ground is rather low, but some of the islands are as healthy as any of that part of Africa; indeed, the contrast between that river and some of the rivers we afterwards went up, at a more favourable season, was remarkable.

6864. Mr. _Milnes_.] Did you not fall in with a vessel called the Echo, bringing a cargo of goods to the Coast of Africa?--I did, a Hamburgh vessel; I think it was on the 11th of December.

6865. Had you any reason to suspect her of having any connexion with the slave trade?--The officer who was sent on board her found that her cargo was consigned from the Havannah, I think from Charles Tyng to Mr. Canôt, a slave dealer at New Cestos, and she had also on board a Spanish supercargo, affording strong ground for suspecting her, indeed proof, that she was engaged in aiding and abetting the slave trade.

6866. Do you regard any commerce in which ships might be engaged with a slave factory as necessarily abetting the slave trade?--Not all commerce; but I consider that if she were sailing with goods consigned from one slave dealer to another she would be aiding and abetting the slave trade.

6867. _Chairman._] You mean that there could be no doubt of the guilty intent of the parties?--There could be no doubt of the guilty intent of the parties to aid and abet the slave trade.

6868. Mr. _Forster_.] Are you of an opinion that a Hamburgh vessel could not lawfully enter into a charter-party to the Havannah, to convey goods to a slave factory on the coast of Africa?--I think that where a Hamburgh vessel is carrying a cargo under the same circumstances I have described, it forms the strongest reason to suspect that she may be doing still worse.

6869. Mr. _Milnes_.] You searched that Hamburgh vessel?--Upon the 11th of December; it was late in the evening when I boarded her. The officer returned to me, reporting after a very imperfect search, indeed after no search, that he found on board nothing to condemn her, and that he had given a certificate to that effect.

6870. Do you think that that certificate was prematurely given?--No, that the search that I had to institute was under the treaty, and therefore I considered her entitled to a certificate, although I certainly intended, if I fell in with her again, to search her more perfectly, as I was not satisfied upon the subject; all I could say then was, that nothing was found.

6871. What time did the first search take?--It was not a search, it was a visit; it did not amount to a search; it was a visit to the ship, and some little examination, perhaps lifting the hatches; it was in one sense a search, but a most imperfect search; it did not occupy above half an hour.

6872. Did you afterwards see Mr. Canôt, upon the subject of that vessel?--I afterwards saw Mr. Canôt, not upon the subject of that vessel; he mentioned to me that he expected a vessel with a cargo.

6873. Under what circumstances did you search the Echo a second time?--Upon our arrival at New Cestos, considering her exposed to the worst suspicions, after I found that she was consigned to Mr. Canôt, I caused a most perfect search to be instituted; the hold was cleared, and she was thoroughly searched for slave equipments. It should be observed, that the right of search is never carried to anything like this extent, except in cases justifying the strongest suspicion.

6874. How long did that search take?--I think from the 15th to the 18th of December.

6875. Were you then satisfied by the result of that search that there were no grounds for seizing the Echo?--I certainly found nothing, in my opinion, to convict her; at that time there was nothing detected on board her to warrant detention; had there been, I should have detained her of course.

6876. Did you or your master entrust to the captain of the Echo certain captured Spaniards, to take to the Havannah?--When I was about to sail from New Cestos, I allowed a prize crew of Spaniards, who had been captured in a prize, to go on board this vessel, to endeavour to get a passage back to their own country.

6877. Did you use any persuasion to Captain Soms to call at Sierra Leone, as he states in the papers you have seen?--I never was on board her in the first place, and I never saw Captain Soms; in the second place, the master, on returning on board the Wanderer, told me, that he had advised the captain of the Echo to go to Sierra Leone with the view of getting passengers; subsequently, when I heard that the vessel was captured, I recollect distinctly saying to the master, “Oh, they will think you have betrayed them into the hands of the Sierra Leone government.” The advice was given without my authority, and without my knowledge until afterwards; but I saw no harm in the advice.

6878. Could the Echo have incurred any culpability with regard to the slave trade between the time when you examined her and her seizure at Sierra Leone?--Very possibly.

6879. How?--She might have entered into an arrangement to carry away a cargo of slaves from another part of the coast; she might have equipped herself for slave dealing; it does not at all follow because she was apparently free from liability to capture when I was on board her, that she should not have done something subsequently that rendered her so.

6880. You do not consider your having declared her to be innocent to be a sufficient ground for saying that she was not guilty at Sierra Leone at a subsequent period?--It was certainly no sort of guarantee against the consequences of any future proceedings that she might choose to take.

6881. Sir _R. H. Inglis_.] It was not either a retrospective or a prospective guarantee; it was a guarantee only that on the 11th of December, when you visited her, she at that time had no _primâ facie_ evidence of being engaged in the slave trade; is that your impression upon the subject?--It was no particular guarantee, but it was a certificate which the treaties, under the authority of which I searched her, declared that I was to furnish her with; it was a certificate to the effect that the treaty required.

6882. _Chairman._] Was that certificate a security to her against any further search by any other man-of-war on the station?--It would probably operate against any further search, because they would not take the trouble to do it unless they had some new reason to suspect her; they would have no wish to cause unnecessary vexation.

6883. Is the certificate intended, in your view, to operate as a security against further trouble?--I think there are two motives for the certificate; one is, that there may be no concealment as to the ship which may have committed any wrong in the exercise of the right of search upon her; and secondly, to act as a sort of certificate with regard to others that may fall in with her; but if others have reason still to doubt her, in spite of that certificate, they are perfectly at liberty to search her again.

6884. Did you hear what became of the Echo afterwards?--I did not hear of her detention at Sierra Leone until the end of March, I think the 28th of March; I visited Sierra Leone a few days after I had boarded her, but before her arrival.

6885. Did you not hear that she was condemned?--I heard that she was condemned.

6886. Upon what ground?--My knowledge upon the subject is merely hearsay; all that I know is, that an officer of the Wanderer was at Sierra Leone, and I mention it in order to show that Sir John Jeremie was not moved by interested motives in seizing her, he was anxious that this officer should seize her as a prize to the Wanderer.

6887. Has the Governor any interest in seizures?--He has a proportion of the proceeds.

6888. Mr. _Forster_.] And he would be entitled to a proportion of the proceeds of the Echo when condemned at Sierra Leone?--Yes.

6889. Mr. _Milnes_.] Did you ever fall in with any other Hamburgh vessel engaged in abetting the slave trade?--I fell in once with the Argus, at the Gallinas, when she was landing casks. I considered that a suspicious circumstance, although one not warranting seizure. I never met with any other.

6890. Have you ever heard that eight or any other number of Hamburgh vessels had proceeded from Hamburgh for the purpose of abetting the slave trade, or being engaged in it?--I think decidedly not.

6891. Mr. _Forster_.] If the Echo had been an English vessel, would you have seized her under the circumstances in which you found the Echo?--Undoubtedly, under the circumstances of the trade which she was carrying on.

6892. Mr. _Milnes_.] Do you mean after the first or after the second search?--The search told nothing. It was the fact of her carrying goods from one slave dealer to another, with a Spanish supercargo on board, that would have proved to me that she was aiding and abetting the slave trade.

6893. Would you have seized her upon the knowledge of that fact alone?--Undoubtedly, if she had been an English vessel.

6894. _Chairman._] But being a foreign vessel, you did not think that ground sufficient to act upon?--Being a foreign vessel, I could not apply the English laws to her case. I could only apply the treaty to her case, and I held that according to the treaty only equipment would warrant a seizure, or slaves.

6895. Mr. _Milnes_.] Would you have had a right to seize that ship under those circumstances simply from the fact of her having a foreign supercargo?--Not upon that fact, but upon the fact of her carrying goods from one slave dealer to another slave dealer to buy slaves with.

6896. How do you know that it was to buy slaves with?--From the fact of their being both engaged in the slave trade.

6897. Was Mr. Canôt at that time avowedly engaged in the slave trade?--Mr. Canôt had, a very few days before the arrival of the Echo, given up all his slaves and abandoned the slave trade. It was a mere accidental circumstance their finding that Mr. Canôt was not then carrying on the slave trade.

6898. _Chairman._] They were consigned to him under the expectation that he was a slave dealer?--At the time the consignment took place he was a slave dealer, and no one at that time could have contemplated so sudden a change on his part.

6899. Mr. _Milnes_.] But at the time the Echo was there, Mr. Canôt was not engaged in the slave trade, and was under British protection?--Mr. Canôt had, a few days before, given up his slaves and abandoned the slave trade.

6900. But the parties who chartered the Echo could not have been aware of that fact?--They could not possibly have been aware of that fact.

6901. Sir _T. D. Acland_.] Mr. Canôt was known to be concerned in the slave trade at the time the consignment was made?--Perfectly.

6902. Mr. _Forster_.] You do not think that Mr. Canôt in abandoning the slave trade, was at all influenced by the prospective arrival of this vessel, with a view to possessing himself of the cargo?--I do not see how he could have been influenced by that; because, under the circumstances, I could not have seized her, whether he had been carrying on the slave trade or not. On the other hand, although he had turned from the slave trade, yet, had I found any equipment upon her, I should have seized her. It made no difference whatever.