Part 24
6777. _Chairman._] You mean by legitimate commerce, the exchange of manufactures for produce?--Exactly; and I stated that there was no legitimate commerce, because there was no produce whatever. Might I be allowed to refer to a question and answer that I understand has been put referring to the Gallinas. I have been informed that this question was put to Mr. Peters: “You do not think Captain Denman’s observations upon the subject practically of any value.” Now I beg to observe that Mr. Peters can never have seen my observations upon the subject. The answer of Mr. Peters is, that I thought I had put an effectual stop to the slave trade in the Gallinas, and that many others thought so.
6778. Mr. _Forster_.] In a letter to the Governor of Sierra Leone, dated the 12th of December, you say that the people at the Gallinas “have already, in a wild state, but of the finest quality, cotton, indigo, pepper, and palm nut, the sugar cane and tobacco, which they are enabled to cure. Salt is procured in considerable quantities, and there is no doubt that coffee would flourish as well as at Sierra Leone and Monrovia.” Do you wish the Committee to understand that if a trader from Sierra Leone were to go there with goods, he could obtain in exchange for them any of those articles you have enumerated?--With regard to the tobacco there is a misprint; instead of “enabled to cure” it should be “unable to cure.” I have stated in the same letter that no cultivation whatever did exist, and that I used every effort to persuade the chiefs to cultivate the soil. My information was derived from the chiefs as to the existence of these articles.
6779. _Chairman._] Do cotton, indigo, pepper, palm nut, the sugar cane, and tobacco, grow there in a wild state, and are they of good quality?--It is a fact that I derived from the unanimous declaration of the chiefs of the country.
6780. Mr. _Aldam_.] Are there any means of carrying on any considerable commerce at the present moment?--Certainly not. It must begin upon a small scale, as elsewhere; it does not spring at once into a considerable commerce.
6781. Mr. _Forster_.] Are you of opinion that there is nothing questionable in the proceedings of our navy in destroying the property of foreigners in a foreign country, and encouraging the native chiefs in those proceedings, with reference to the moral effect of it upon the minds of the chiefs and the natives?--It depends entirely upon circumstances. If aggressions have been committed against persons belonging to Sierra Leone (and I can conceive no aggressions or injuries so great as that of making British subjects slaves), I consider that those people are in every respect entitled to the same protection as white people. Indeed I consider that the liberated Africans of Sierra Leone have peculiar claims to the regard and protection and favour of England. I see no distinction whatever between them and British subjects. Supposing three British subjects had been held in this way, I conceive it would have been highly improper to have allowed such a proceeding to pass unnoticed.
6782. _Chairman._] You rest your proceeding at the Gallinas, not upon the general ground of using means for putting down the slave trade, but upon the specific offences committed by the chiefs of the Gallinas against British subjects settled at Sierra Leone, and their inhospitality to your crews upon the coast?--Precisely so.
6783. Therefore you do not consider that you are making a precedent for indiscriminate descents upon the coast, wherever a slave barracoon is established, for the purpose of destroying it as a means of putting down the slave trade?--In the proceeding adopted by me at the Gallinas, the grounds were exactly those stated in the preceding question. At the same time I conceive that the destruction of barracoons and slave places not in settlements belonging to European powers, would be justifiable all over the coast. Nothing of the sort had been done before, and therefore I did it under very heavy responsibility. I could not have struck out a new line without some special grounds to go upon.
6784. Should you consider yourself entitled, without any of those peculiar grounds for the interposition which the proceedings at the Gallinas gave you, to make a descent upon any point of the coast under the jurisdiction of a native chief, where slaves were collected for the purpose of exportation, and destroying those barracoons, and insisting upon the slave trade being given up?--I should think myself perfectly justified in doing so whoever the slave factor might be. Whether it would be borne out by my instructions from the Admiralty would depend upon what those instructions were.
6785. You would conceive yourself, if you were an officer on that station now, entitled to pursue that as a general method of putting down the slave trade?--I should certainly have pursued it had I remained.
6785*. Do you conceive yourself entitled to do this under instructions, under treaties, or entirely upon your own responsibility, without any direct authority?--I consider that it might have been done upon my own responsibility entirely, upon the footing that the law of nations can afford no sort of recognition of the dealing in slaves by Spaniards in a foreign country. And secondly, that those persons were criminals by their own laws, and could not look to protection from their own government. So long as the slave trade was clearly and distinctly separated from legitimate trade, I consider that such proceedings would have been perfectly justifiable.
6786. Supposing a native chief had collected slaves in barracoons upon his own territory for exportation, should you then have felt yourself justified in destroying such places?--I should have considered myself justified in following the same system there, upon the ground that the native chiefs are not recognized amongst the nations of the world; they are in a barbarous state, and the law of nations, in my opinion, cannot apply to them further than for their own good and their own protection, and I should have considered the destruction of those buildings and the taking off the slaves as an act most directly and most importantly tending to their own good and benefit.
6787. Captain _Fitzroy_.] It has appeared in evidence before this Committee that the Pluto sailed from Fernando Po, under orders from the Admiralty, to destroy any barracoons or other slaving establishments that she might meet with in various parts of the coast, not being the property of Europeans; were similar instructions issued to the officers on that coast while you were there?--I saw instructions to that effect a few weeks before I left that coast.
6788. From the Admiralty?--From the Admiralty.
6789. _Chairman._] Have you been at the Gallinas since?--Yes, I have been three or four times at the Gallinas.
6790. Has the effect of what you did been to put down the slave trade, or to what extent has it done so?--It has nearly broken up the system then followed, except as regards the south-east branch of the river, upon which a place called Soolimane stands; there was, when I was at the river, a small factory there, which I did not destroy, as I had no case against it, and this is the factory which Captain Blount has recently destroyed. In the part where I went, it does not appear that any slave trade has sprung up again.
6791. You conceive then that if this process is followed, it will be effectual for its object?--My opinion is, that in such a part of the coast as the Gallinas, blockade alone is quite sufficient to stop the slave trade. These measures, of course, render the operation of the blockade more quick. But I had kept a blockade up at that place for nearly a year, during which only two vessels had escaped. Nearly 20 vessels had been captured, and they were reduced to despair. Every American vessel generally used to inform my officers that the slave dealers declared they could not carry on the trade under the pressure of a blockade so maintained. The blockade during a great part of the time, both at Cestos, where similar results were produced, and at the Gallinas, was carried on for the greater part of the time at the Gallinas by my ship alone, and at Cestos by the Termagant alone, under my orders.
6792. During that blockade, did you prevent the access of any vessel bringing goods into the country?--I interfered with only vessels equipped for the slave trade; goods to purchase the slaves I could not interfere with. Had they been brought in British vessels, I should certainly have seized those vessels; but I should have been very doubtful whether conviction would have followed under the penal clauses, where the necessity of proving the knowledge of the party is so difficult.
6793. But you would have taken the risk?--I should have felt it my duty to take that risk.
6794. Mr. _Aldam_.] Did any British vessels attempt to go in during that period with goods?--No, not while I was there.
6795. _Chairman._] Did any vessels of any nation come in with lawful goods during that period?--There is a list of them in the correspondence.
6796. Mr. _Forster_.] Then if a British vessel, laden with lawful merchandise, had attempted to enter the Gallinas, you would have seized her?--Not so, exactly; but if British vessels had come under the same circumstances as American vessels did, with cargoes consigned from Pedro Blanco to Thomas Buron, both notorious slave dealers, to be paid for at the Havannah, or in dollars there, I certainly should have seized them.
6797. How could you have known how the goods were to be paid for?--I should have considered it a clear case of aiding and abetting the slave trade, as clear as it is possible for any thing to be.
6798. How could you have learned that the goods would be paid for at the Havannah in dollars?--I think it is immaterial whether they were paid for in dollars at the Havannah or at the Gallinas; but the fact that they were not paid for in produce, and that it was distinctly putting goods into the hands of the Spaniard Buron to buy slaves with, would, in my opinion, make it a clear case of aiding and abetting the slave trade.
6799. _Chairman._] And you would argue, from those circumstances, that guilty knowledge could not be absent?--Guilty knowledge could not be absent, in my opinion, in such a case. It may repeatedly happen that, in default of proving their guilty knowledge, people may escape; whereas every one but the criminal himself perfectly well knows the character of the trade which is going on, and which alone could be going on at such a place. Sierra Leone juries are exceedingly careful to have the fact of the knowledge imprinted upon the mind of the culprit proved to them; and unless it is proved they will not convict.
6800. Mr. _Forster_.] At all events, you would have assumed the guilty knowledge, and seized the vessel under the supposed circumstances?--I should; and had I not done so, I think my conduct would have been open to a court-martial.
6801. You have stated that you think the slave trade can be effectually prevented, and was effectually prevented, by a blockade at the Gallinas?--It can certainly be effectually prevented, and was effectually prevented to such an extent that during 9 or 10 months but two vessels escaped, and about 20 were captured.
6802. Then it was not necessary, for the purpose of putting down the slave trade there, to destroy the Spanish property?--My reflection in such a case always would be, the miseries that the slaves on shore were enduring in consequence of this; and I should always be eager to take every opportunity of relieving them from it. It would be undoubtedly the most effectual measure possible.
6803. The using means to put down the slave trade, or to throw difficulties in the way of the slave trade, carries a moral justification with it, which no one can question; but do you think the means you took in that case were altogether justifiable, upon the ground of example to the natives, and the native chiefs; do not you think they might misunderstand those proceedings, and that it might lead to conduct on their part prejudicial to the interests of British commerce?--I think not in any way whatever; I think the operation would be the opposite.
6804. _Chairman._] Are you aware that any British commerce has followed since those operations against the Gallinas?--No, it has not; I knew very shortly afterwards that they were endeavouring to re-establish the slave trade about there, and I kept the blockade up, intending to knock them down immediately the fine season commenced, and that has been done by Captain Blount.
6805. Mr. _Forster_.] From your experience in Africa you are aware of the great importance of setting all ranks of the natives a high example of honour, and equity, and honesty, in all dealings and transactions; and the question is, whether the effect of those proceedings in that point of view may not render them open to objection. Is it not your opinion, considering that they are not themselves opposed to the slave trade, that they might be at some loss to understand, on any principle of justice, why you should be at liberty to destroy the property of a Spaniard who favoured the trade which they also favoured, and they not be at equal liberty to destroy the property of a British merchant who was opposed to them on the subject of the slave trade?--They are perfectly well aware that the one trade is a legal trade and that the other is a prohibited trade; and they are, moreover, perfectly sensible of the injustice of the custom of selling their fellow-creatures.
6806. _Chairman._] You find them open to feelings of that nature?--Perfectly; the _argumentum ad hominem_ always tells very well with them.
6807. Mr. _Forster_.] In your opinion, do they consider the slave trade a crime?--They do not consider it a crime, because it is not against their laws; but they perfectly well know that it is opposed to every principle of justice, that it is founded upon the grossest injustice and cruelty, and that it is productive of the utmost misery.
6808. How could they reconcile it to their notions of justice that you should destroy the property of Spaniards for doing that which is legal according to their own civil institutions?--Because they are perfectly aware that the Spaniards are carrying on a contraband and prohibited trade, and therefore they are not surprised to find that their vessels are captured; nor are they much surprised when they find that their slaves on shore are emancipated. The one is just as easily to be reconciled to their minds as the other.
6809. _Chairman._] Have you found, among any of the native chiefs with whom you have had to deal, a feeling against this as an act of injustice?--No, I cannot say that I have, in any instance. On the contrary, I have a letter from the chiefs of Sea Bar, distinguishing their position altogether from that of the Gallinas people, and, upon that ground, begging that I would not come and burn them down.
6810. Do you think they are aware that the slave trade, if carried on by any European nation, is a trade in itself illegal?--They are perfectly aware of it.
6811. Mr. _Aldam_.] How do the chiefs at Sea Bar distinguish between their case and the case of the Gallinas?--It is rather a difficult letter to understand. It was sent off with two ducks, which I believe were poisoned for my benefit. It is a long letter. It alludes to General Turner’s endeavours to get possession of their country, and then points out that it is not under the English laws, and that they have received intelligence from the Gallinas that I have burnt and destroyed the Spanish factories, and that it is my intention to come to Sea Bar and do the same; and it ends with something like a threat, that if we did do it, we might be insulted by their people, which they should be sorry for.
6812. Will you have the goodness to deliver in the letter?--
[_The same was delivered in, and read as follows_:]
“Sea Bar.” On Her Majesty’s Service.
To
Deman Esq., Commander of Her Majesty’s brig Wander.
Hon. Sir,
2 December 1840.
Be it known to you and all other officers commanding Her Majesty’s vessels cruizing on this part of Africa, particularly off Sea Bar, that we the undermentioned gentlemen of this country, do with the greatest honour to you and all Her Majesty’s subjects, do relate and acquaint you of our poor late and respected father, Mr. James Tucker, chief of this country, which I have no doubt the Government knows the same, as he told them when they consulted together with Messrs. Rendall, Macauley, Campbell, and several other gentlemen of the colony of Sierra Leone, when with intention to put him under the controul of the English laws, but which he did not consent to, stating that it was his living throughout all his ancient family, and he had no other means for his livelyhood, yes certainly the inhabitants of the colony of Sierra Leone trade in this river, but their trade is no profit nor benefit to us in this country, although they receive a great assistance from this country, but however we have received intelligence from the Gallinas that you the subject of Her Majesty’s have burnt and destroyed all the Spanish factories in that country, and that it is your intention coming down here at Sea Bar, and will act the same here as have done with Gallinas, so therefore we the under gentlemen of this country do beg and warn you with the greatest friendship towards Her Majesty’s subjects to acquaint you that this part of the country is very different with the Gallinas, as the land is our and all the standing property and building is belonging to us, and in case they should be destroyed and burnt down on account of foreigners, it cannot be an injury to them, but to us in the country; we very knows that it is a law between the different nations of Europe for diminishing that traffic, but however it dont concern with us as they comes to us, if you meet them outside to sea, but coming in the rivers and destroying places, so therefore hearing such news from Her Majesty’s subjects about this country and taking as friends, and if you coming on any purpose you dont let us know in the country and burn any place belonging to us; as we do honour the English colour for fear of coming in such a manner, perhaps some of our subjects might do what may be an insult to the English flag, and we dont wish such a thing to be between us, so therefore we beg you all to allow us the liberty of relating to you the aforementioned laws of this country, and hoping it will not be an offence to you.
We remain, &c.
Tessana Town, } _Henry Tucker._ 2 December 1840. } _Johnny Tucker._ } _Jack Tucker._
6813. _Chairman._] Did you have intercourse with those chiefs after that letter?--No, I did not. The rainy season was coming on, and I was compelled to go to another part of my station.
6814. Captain _Fitzroy_.] Did Governor Doherty make a requisition to you, that you should take those measures with respect to the Gallinas which you have described?--The only requisition from Governor Doherty to me was, to recover the woman and her child, who had been made slaves of by Prince Manna.
6815. Did Governor Doherty express himself satisfied, or otherwise, with the result of your expedition to the Gallinas?--In the first letter in the correspondence before the Committee, a despatch to Lord John Russell, Governor Doherty expresses, in the strongest way, his satisfaction.
6816. Sir _R. H. Inglis_.] Having received the approbation of the local government near the scene of your exploit, have you also received any expression of approbation on the part of Her Majesty’s Government, either on the part of the Colonial-office, or of the Admiralty, or of both?--The Colonial Secretary and the Foreign Secretary both expressed, in the strongest terms, their approbation of my proceedings. My despatches to the Admiralty did not arrive till the middle of July. They had, however, previously approved of my conduct, although they had declared that they could not entertain the question with reference to promotion, as the despatches had not come to them. The despatches sent through the senior officer arrived at the Admiralty in July, and I was promoted in August.
6817. Were you promoted by the Admiralty with reference to those services?--No, I cannot say that; I think they may also have considered that as affording some claim, from the tone of letters which I have seen, not addressed to myself, by the Foreign and the Colonial Secretaries.
6818. But the approbation of the Colonial Secretary and of the Foreign Secretary was absolute?--It was absolute.
6819. And the approbation of the Admiralty may be inferred from the fact of your promotion?--That approbation was expressed, in the first instance, by them before they received the despatches, from what had appeared before Parliament.
6820. Mr. _Aldam_.] Has the Admiralty issued orders for other officers in similar cases to follow the same course?--I think the Admiralty has done so.
6821. Mr. _Forster_.] You wish the Committee distinctly to understand that you think such means as you resorted to would not have the effect of offering a bad example to the native chiefs, which they might imitate, and under some pretext or other to seize upon British property?--I think not; I think no example in the natives engaged in the slave trade can possibly make them worse than they are while such traffic is there pursued, nor is there a possibility of improvement until it is stopped.
6822. You think that, when the slave trade is once put down, British settlements planted at the parts where it has been carried on will keep it down?--I think eventually legitimate trade will keep it down; I do not limit it to British settlements only, although British settlements would undoubtedly have a good effect for that object.
6823. Then if a British settlement had been founded at the Gallinas on the completion of your operations there, you think the slave trade would have been permanently suppressed?--Undoubtedly I think so, if founded on good principles.
6824. In your last examination you spoke in terms of strong condemnation of the traders upon the coast having any commercial dealings with persons suspected of being engaged in the slave trade; now, without requiring from a naval commander an intimate or practical knowledge of the principles of commerce, it may nevertheless be reasonable to ask you, after the strong opinions you have expressed, how British trade in Africa could possibly be successfully carried on in competition with foreigners under any restrictions such as you have pointed at?--The restriction that I recommend is, that there should be such a change in the law as to enable us to seize and to condemn any vessel that trades with a notorious slave factory, there being no other trade but the slave trade there prosecuted; also, against the supply of slave ships with goods for the purposes of their traffic, and also against the sale of vessels calculated for the slave trade to slave dealers. In my opinion, those three practices should be stopped.
6825. Do you know Senor Caetano, at the Bissao?--I know who he is, well.
6826. You have stated in your former evidence, that Senor Caetano dealt both in produce and in slaves; how would you act in his case?--I have stated that it would be impossible to distinguish in such cases.
6827. You are aware that slavery and slave dealing are extensively carried on in Cuba?--Undoubtedly; the slave trade to a much diminished extent of late.
6828. And you are aware that it is equally the case in Brazil?--I am aware that it is also the case in the Brazils.