Part 22
6637. Mr. _Wortley_.] Has not there been an improvement of late years in the class of vessels employed in cruizing?--Very great; I believe that for some years they have been replacing the old brigs with a superior class of vessels; fast sailing vessels, which are quite equal to the slavers in sailing qualities.
6638. Are you aware whether that change has been followed by a perceptible increase of efficiency in the service?--That change was about contemporaneous with the change by the Act of the 2d of Victoria; you cannot distinguish between the effects of the two.
6639. According to your observation, should you say that the present class of vessels is an efficient class for the service for which they are employed?--Decidedly; there are still a few of the old class, but they have been always replaced at the expiration of their term of service by efficient vessels.
6640. How are they in point of sailing as compared with the generality of slavers?--They are generally superior; I commanded one for two years, and I never chased a vessel that I did not overhaul; some got away from darkness coming on, but I had the advantage in point of sailing in every instance.
6641. What vessel was that?--The Wanderer, a 16-gun brig.
6642. _Chairman._] What are the respective functions that you would assign to the sailing-vessel and to the steamer, the two acting in combination?--The steamer, I think, should be probing the rivers and ranging about the coast; the sailing-vessel should be as much as possible a fixture at the place where the slaves are put on board, which should never be left unguarded for an hour. The steamer should be employed in going from place to place to see whether from new places they are making arrangements to embark slaves, and also for carrying provisions and water, and in chasing; but steamers could not entirely blockade, because they are so much more frequently obliged to leave their stations for supplies.
6643. Mr. _Wortley_.] What was the system you generally pursued in the course of your service; did you pass your time principally in stationary blockade, or were you upon a moving cruize?--When I took charge of the station, the orders I issued to the other cruizers (as well as what I practised myself) were, to maintain the principle of blockade; and if they chased a vessel off a certain port where slaves were shipped, never to lose sight of that port; but if they could not catch the vessel without losing sight of it, to go back again, for she was sure to come back again, and there was no harm done. If, on the other hand, the chase is continued to any distance, other vessels might get in and ship slaves; and even the very one pursued might dodge the cruizer at night, and run in and effect her escape with a cargo.
6644. Mr. _Aldam_.] Then where would you place the six steamers you propose to have?--I would have two between Cape Mesaduro and the river Gambia, principally stationed at the Bissagos; but those operations I speak of would very soon alter the character of the trade, and it would be removed from point to point. I think there should be two more steamers, perhaps, between Cape Formosa and Cape Palmas, and two more to the southward of those points.
6645. Mr. _Forster_.] Do you think they could be navigated with wood fuel entirely?--I am not prepared to answer that question, but I think not; I think coal would be required upon most parts of the coast.
6646. Mr. _Aldam_.] What would be the size of the steamers necessary, the tonnage, and the power of the engine?--The steamers on the coast of Africa ought to be small steamers, not drawing more than five or six feet water.
6647. _Chairman._] Might not the slave vessels be useful as tenders sometimes after condemnation?--Under the treaties we are not empowered to buy them. In the Act of 2d Victoria, there is a clause by which the Government can take any captured vessel that they please for the purpose of a tender,--one was established by me under that clause by orders from the Admiralty,--but not to cruize; simply to convey the prize crews to their proper ships.
6648. Mr. _Forster_.] Do not you consider the British settlements on the coast of Africa an important assistance in the suppression of the slave trade?--I consider that the settlements on shore have done some service in that way, but not half so much as they might have done.
6649. _Chairman._] Will you state the grounds of that opinion?--With regard to Sierra Leone, I have no hesitation in saying, that the slave trade has derived great advantage from it, and that the British influence does not extend there much beyond the limits of the colony as regards this object. The entrance of the Sherboro’ river has on one side of it Sierra Leone, and there is a slave trade carried on there, and that has been owing to the view which the Government took of General Turner’s proceeding in 1826, the consequence of which has been to prevent future governors from attempting similar plans.
6650. What were those plans?--To obtain the sovereignty of the coast down as far as the Boom Kittam river, which lies on the south side of the Sherboro’, and from thence, I believe, to Cape Mount.
6651. Mr. _Forster_.] Had he already entered into treaties for that purpose?--He had already got possession as far as the Boom Kittam, and the Government ordered that that should be relinquished again.
6652. _Chairman._] In what way has Sierra Leone lent assistance to the slave trade?--The slave vessels have been repeatedly purchased there by people, notoriously agents of Pedro Blanco, and others at Gallinas, and they have gone back into his hands.
6653. Mr. _Forster_.] Do you think the settlement of Sierra Leone was so much responsible for that as the system under which the vessels were sold?--I think the individuals who purchased slave vessels for slave dealers were very much to blame, and it is only to be regretted that no punishment could be inflicted upon them.
6654. Sir _R. H. Inglis_.] By the law at present the slave vessels must be broken up?--Not in all cases. Under the British law, the Act of the 5th George the 4th, vessels are not broken up, so that if a vessel is condemned in British waters by the British law, she is sold, and probably goes into a slave dealer’s hands the next day, which is the case also with vessels condemned under the Brazilian treaty.
6655. Mr. _Forster_.] Are you aware that those vessels are sold by auction to the highest bidder?--I am perfectly aware of that; that is according to the treaties under which they are condemned: it is no fault of the authorities of Sierra Leone nor of the Mixed Commission Court; the authorities are compelled to allow her to leave the port afterwards.
6656. If an agent of Pedro Blanco, or even Pedro Blanco himself, went into the auction room and bid the highest price he would get the vessel?--I suppose so.
6657. _Chairman._] It is in that respect that you consider that Sierra Leone has afforded facilities to the slave trade?--It is in that respect; but, at the same time, I cannot conceive Pedro Blanco having the audacity to go into the sale room for such a purpose, or the authorities letting the vessel under such circumstances sail out of port.
6658. How could the authorities stop the vessel going out under the charge of Pedro Blanco himself, as well as under the charge of his agent?--I think the facts would be almost sufficient to prove that she was engaged in the slave trade; but there would be a difficulty, unless she had equipments about her.
6659. Mr. _Forster_.] You would not propose to punish the auctioneer who sold the vessel to the agent of Pedro Blanco?--No, he could not be responsible; he would be acting as a Government agent.
6660. Mr. _Aldam_.] If a vessel was purchased on behalf of a slave dealer at Sierra Leone, where would she clear for?--Probably for the Cape Verd Islands. I know two cases where the vessels cleared for the Cape Verd Islands; one of them I captured. I will state an instance of the way in which vessels not broken up pass into the slave trade again. The Republicano, a prize of the Fantome, was condemned at Sierra Leone; she was purchased by an individual known to be engaged in the slave trade; I went on board her and saw what her object was, that she was going to carry slaves, and I detained her.
6661*. The purchaser was a man known to be engaged in the slave trade?--Yes, and I detained her. When I went away myself I left orders with my agent, on no account to let her go without a decree of the court; but he thought that we could not prove sufficient to justify her detention, and he let her go. The purchaser then proceeded to the Cape de Verd Islands, and fitted her out for the slave trade, and she was taken off the Gallinas by Captain Hill, of the Saracen, perfectly equipped as a slave ship.
6662*. Who was the slave dealer?--He was an American; I forget his name.
6663*. Do you mean to say that he was a resident at Sierra Leone, carrying on the slave trade?--No; but I merely mention that as an instance of the way in which captured vessels, when not broken up, are afterwards employed again in the slave trade. I do not say that he was amenable to British law.
6664*. _Chairman._] Was it the actual slave dealer who made the purchase in Sierra Leone?--He was a man known very well to be closely connected with a slave vessel lately condemned.
6665*. What was the nature of his real or supposed connexion with the slave trade?--I cannot exactly call to mind the proof of the fact; but that it was so a reference to the printed correspondence will show.
6666*. Mr. _Aldam_.] Whose name appeared as owner; was the owner of the ship that you captured a Spaniard or a Portuguese?--It was a Spanish master; she appeared as the property of the American who had made the purchase.
6667*. _Chairman._] Have there been instances in which a slave dealer in his own person has come to Sierra Leone and made purchases of this kind?--In the case I have just mentioned he had been already brought to Sierra Leone in some vessel, but he was not known as Pedro Blanco was; but I believe there would be no means of preventing them from taking the vessel away, unless equipment was on board.
6668*. Has the colony of Sierra Leone in any other way contributed to the maintenance of the slave trade, besides the facilities which it has afforded of purchasing ships which have been condemned?--I have no doubt that some degree of communication has been kept up between the slave dealers in the neighbourhood of the Gallinas and the Sherboro’, and parties in Sierra Leone.
6669*. Have you reason to know that any liberated Africans have engaged in slave dealing?--I have no actual knowledge of any such circumstance; I have no doubt that many, I have proof that some, liberated Africans have been sold again into slavery.
6670*. To any extent?--I am not able to say to what extent; I should think to a considerable extent, from cases which have fallen within my knowledge.
6671*. Sir _R. H. Inglis_.] Do you believe that they have been kidnapped?--I am unable to say whether they were kidnapped or not; I should think it most likely.
6672*. _Chairman._] What are the cases with which you are acquainted?--There were three cases at the Gallinas. There was one case in the Pongas, where I went up and liberated a girl who had been carried off.
6673*. Had those persons been carried off from within the district of Sierra Leone, or in the course of their traffic along the coast?--The one in the Pongas had been carried off from the colony of Sierra Leone, and one of them had been taken away as a servant, and left as a pawn; in fact a slave. The other two had been taken when out of the colony.
6674*. Was the case which you alluded to as having occurred within the colony itself, a case of kidnapping or abduction conducted by inhabitants of Sierra Leone?--I have Sir John Jeremie’s letter here upon the subject. By the Timmanees, I see, is the statement in the letter.
6675*. Then this is a case in which some strangers entered the country and carried off some of the inhabitants of Sierra Leone?--So it appears from the letter.
6661. Sir _R. H. Inglis_.] Then you wish the Committee to understand nothing more than that Sierra Leone has been the scene of incursions made with a view to carry persons as slaves from that part of Africa, as might have been the case from the Bonny?--I stated my belief that a considerable number had been kidnapped also by the people of Sierra Leone, and sold to natives who have carried them away, often in canoes.
6662. But you do not attribute that to any overt acts, or any neglect of the Government?--By no means; I think it is almost unavoidable under the circumstances.
6663. _Chairman._] You have no reason to know that a system of kidnapping prevails in the colony, though individual instances may have occurred?--I have no reason to know it; but I have reason to believe that it did exist to a considerable extent, more particularly formerly, when a great number were landed from slave ships; but now that is reduced to a small number.
6664. In those instances of kidnapping you imagine that they were the acts rather of strangers to the colony than a system pursued by the inhabitants of the colony?--In many cases I think they were the acts of inhabitants of the colony, who had kidnapped people, or seduced them from the colony, and then sold them to the slave dealers.
6665. Upon what ground do you imagine that kidnapping does exist to a considerable extent in the colony?--I have heard the thing repeatedly stated with great confidence, and I think those instances go to prove it; when I went into the Gallinas I found 90 slaves, and of those 90 two were British subjects.
6666. Mr. _Forster_.] Could such a system have been carried on without the consequences of it becoming obvious to every person resident at Sierra Leone, and acquainted with the number of captured negroes in the neighbourhood?--I believe that it might at times, when there was a great influx of those black people; my opinion is, from what I have heard, but I am not able to enter into the facts very closely, that the apprenticeship system at Sierra Leone is extremely defective, and that the whole system of supervision over the liberated Africans, as well as of the apprentices, is also exceedingly bad, and open to great abuses.
6667. _Chairman._] Would it not be the duty of the police magistrates of the district to see that there was no diminution of numbers by kidnapping?--I am not aware that there are any district police magistrates, except the superintendents of the villages.
6668. Do not those superintendents exercise the functions of magistrates?--I do not know; but they are very often taken off by sickness, and villages are frequently left without proper people to take charge of them; and I believe, in my own mind, that the system of kidnapping has gone on to some considerable extent.
6669. Mr. _Forster_.] But your opinion upon that subject is founded merely upon report?--Yes; and upon information I have received in conversation.
6670. Mr. _Aldam_.] Do you think that there is any remedy for that evil?--I think the only remedy would be to exercise more supervision over the liberated Africans, by having a larger Government establishment to some extent, and a better class of people employed.
6671. _Chairman._] Have any other settlements given facilities to the slave trade besides Sierra Leone?--Not directly, to my knowledge; the trade of the Gambia is principally with Bissao, and at Bissao there is a great slave trade, and legitimate trade, or rather produce trade going on hand-in-hand together; the merchants of Bissao purchase quantities of slaves and quantities of produce; and again, goods supplied by the merchants at the Gambia are paid for in produce and in money; those goods, undoubtedly, are more or less used by the slave dealers in the slave trade.
6672. Sir _R. H. Inglis_.] The case to which you referred as within your own knowledge, of a person detained in the Gallinas as a slave, taken from Sierra Leone, was the case forming a subject of the Parliamentary Papers of the year 1841?--No; another case; that was a case where she had gone voluntarily into the country, and been detained.
6673. Mr. _Aldam_.] How many white people would be necessary to manage the establishment on the island of Bulama?--I do not see the absolute necessity of one white person, unless it be the officer commanding the detachment; but at the utmost, three or four, independently of those who chose voluntarily to settle in order to trade.
6674. Mr. _Forster_.] You appear to entertain a doubt whether the British settlements already on the coast have rendered as much service as they might have done for the suppression of the slave trade?--I spoke more particularly of Sierra Leone; at the same time, the connexion of the Gambia trade with the slave trade is a fact that there is no doubt about.
6675. Sir _T. D. Acland_.] Do you also include the settlements on the Gold Coast?--I have no knowledge of the Gold Coast settlements.
6676. Then your remark does not apply to them?--No.
6677. Mr. _Forster_.] When you speak in terms of disapproval of the transactions which you say have taken place between Sierra Leone and the Gallinas, do you wish the Committee to understand that you would recommend that the intercourse between Sierra Leone and the Gallinas should be put a stop to?--There is now no intercourse whatever between Sierra Leone and the Gallinas, and there has not been any for the last few years; I speak of former years.
6678. Would you think it desirable that there should be a commercial intercourse between Sierra Leone and the Gallinas?--Undoubtedly I think a commercial intercourse is the only means of eradicating the slave trade; it is the best auxiliary of the cruizers.
6679. And your opinion would be the same with respect to the intercourse between the Gambia and Bissao, that it is desirable that commercial intercourse should be continued and extended if possible between those two places?--Yes, and that it should be separated as much as possible from the slave trade.
6680. _Chairman._] How do you distinguish the lawful from the unlawful trade carried on in a place where both are going on together?--It is almost impossible to distinguish them; for instance, at Bissao the principal slave dealer is also the principal produce dealer, Caetano or Kyetan Nossolino, with whom all the merchants at the Gambia have dealings; in my opinion, that is not a very beneficial trade, because it is not a direct trade with the natives at all; it is a trade between the slave dealer and the British merchants; he buys produce, with which he procures slaves; his principal trade is the slave trade, and he derives great advantages from his commerce with the Gambia in his slave trade.
6681. Would he not have the same facilities of getting the goods necessary for the slave trade from other sources?--He would not have the same facility; it would be much more difficult for him to get it from any other quarter, I apprehend.
6682. Mr. _Forster_.] Do you mean that it would be difficult, supposing the supply from the British settlements at the Gambia were cut off?--I think it would be more difficult.
6683. _Chairman._] Could you stop an American or a Hamburgh vessel going in with the same produce?--Certainly not, nor would I stop an English vessel, but I should wish to consider the means by which we might separate the legitimate trade from the slave trade; my opinion is, that the separation would be best effected by the occupation of Bulama, which would put our merchants in a better position to trade themselves direct with the natives.
6684. You consider then that the trade with Bissao is now thrown too much into the hands of one man, who becomes a monopolist of the trade, and who derives advantages from it in carrying on the slave trade, which would not be derived if we had an entrepôt of our own, to which the natives could resort for goods?--I do; instead of the trade passing all through his hands, I would endeavour, by the occupation of such places as Bulama, to create a rival trade between the English merchants and the natives, instead of goods going, as they now do, through the hands of Caetano and other slave dealers.
6685. You would not, by a legislative enactment, endeavour to prevent a communication by British merchants with slave dealers, but you would rather open other means of trade which were less likely to be objectionable in their results, and thus rival the slave dealers?--Where produce trade existed to any extent at all, I would trust to such measures for the separation of the two; but there are some places where there is no produce trade whatever, where, from one year’s end to another, not a single piece of ivory, or a single gallon of palm oil is exported. The Gallinas is a case in point; it is very true that British vessels can supply goods to the Gallinas, but there is, I think, a scandal in our ships supplying goods there, which does infinite harm to our claim on other nations to abolish and make an end of the slave trade.
6686. Mr. _Forster_.] How would you introduce British trade in produce at the Gallinas unless you encouraged British traders to go there?--The fact is, that wherever the slave trade exists people never turn to legitimate traffic at all, unless the slave trade is insufficient to supply their wants, or until the slave trade is stopped, or at least checked, by forcible means. When the slave trade no longer supplies what they want they are compelled to labour and raise produce, and they are then ready enough to engage in lawful trade; but the goods now brought are as much slave trade almost as the slaves that are exported.
6687. Are you not aware that in some places on the coast the slave trade has been in a great measure, if not entirely, suppressed by the force of commerce alone?--I do not know of any instance; in every case the first step has been the suppression or the check of the slave trade, and then, and not till then, do the natives labour to raise produce.
6688. Have you been to Popo lately?--I have been to Popo; the cruizers at Popo first checked the slave trade, and then the slave dealers preferred Whydah, which is in the neighbourhood, and they have since taken to legitimate trade at Popo.
6689. Are you aware that there was a considerable slave trade formerly from the Rio Nunez?--I am not particularly acquainted with the slave trade that has been carried on from thence; I know that in the year 1835 there was no great amount of slave trade from thence.
6690. You are not then aware that since the establishment of British factories there, the slave trade has entirely disappeared excepting in the way you have referred to, by the visits of Portuguese canoes picking up slaves in the neighbourhood?--I consider that simply produced by the fact of Bissao being a more convenient place; slavers lie there in perfect security under the walls of the Portuguese fort; they prefer bringing their slaves from the Nunez, which they do in great numbers, in canoes to Bissao, to shipping them direct from the Nunez, from whence the passage and the escape is much more difficult than from Bissao.