Part 19

7207. Sir _T. D. Acland_.] What is the shortest?--I think I have heard of its being done in a fortnight.

7208. Sir _R. H. Inglis_.] What is the average passage across the Atlantic, from the Bight of Benin to the Havannah?--From five to six weeks; but I think it is done in less time; I think I remember a slaver telling me, that he did it in something less than a month, but I think from five to six weeks is the average passage; the great difficulty is getting immediately off the coast.

7209. _Chairman._] Are the winds mostly on shore?--It depends a great deal on the season of the year.

7210. Would there be any difficulty in a vessel lying off Cape Palmas, if it were thought desirable, for the purpose of regulating any emigration that might proceed from those parts?--I think there would be no difficulty in a cruizer remaining off Cape Palmas; in lying at anchor there would be danger, but not in keeping under weigh.

7211. Sir _T. D. Acland_.] Do you think that it would be possible for a naval officer to undertake the service of clearing vessels for the West Indies, having ascertained that the natives embarked on board came with their free will, without any fraud or compulsion?--I think the local authorities could do that better than a naval officer.

7212. The question refers to those parts where there are no local authorities; and it proceeds on the supposition that no vessel could be received with emigrants in the West Indies without a clearance from the British officer commanding a certain range of coast: could a British officer in the first place lie off and on, and in the next place, could he discharge the duty of ascertaining whether the emigrants on board any vessel submitted to his examination, were or were not engaged on that voyage without fraud or compulsion?--I think he would have no other means of ascertaining, but what he was told by the natives themselves.

7213. What course would he pursue; would he muster the emigrants on deck, and be able to ascertain from them the circumstances under which they were embarked?--Of course he would have to muster the negroes, and he would question each whether they embarked with their free will for the purpose of emigration; but to do that, he would require an interpreter, and perhaps amongst the number, there might be a great many who spoke different languages; therefore there would be as many interpreters required, as there were different languages; and after all, those people might declare that they had not been asked, and probably place the naval officer in a very awkward predicament. He would be subject entirely to the African, who might tell half-a-dozen different stories in the course of so many months. It would be a very difficult measure to carry out.

7214. _Chairman._] If they were only to embark Kroomen or inhabitants of the coast, do you think he would have any difficulty in ascertaining whether they were free agents or otherwise?--With Kroomen or Fishmen, I think none whatever; because in the Kroo country and in the Fish country the slave trade is not carried on, or if it is carried on, it is so slight that we hardly know any thing about it.

7215. Mr. _Aldam_.] Is there more than one language spoken by the Kroomen and the Fishmen?--There is some difference of language, but still they understand one another.

7216. One interpreter would be sufficient with the Kroomen and the Fishmen?--I think so.

7217. _Chairman._] Would the officer on the station be able to distinguish Kroomen and Fishmen from the natives of the interior?--Decidedly, any person could.

7218. So that if he were instructed to sanction the emigration only of Kroomen and Fishmen, he would be in no danger of confounding them with any other tribes?--No, they are so distinct a class; they are perfectly different from any other natives. They differ materially in appearance, and manners, and language, and every thing.

7219. Then if the emigration were confined to those classes, you do not apprehend that there would be any difficulty in preventing that emigration from assuming the character of slave trade?--I think there would be no difficulty in the Kroo country and in the Fish country. The difficulty would be on the part of the coast where the slave trade is known to have been carried on, and where, from the slave trade having been carried on, the different tribes are so very much intermixed.

7220. Sir _T. D. Acland_.] Could it in that case be done by the commander of a fort on shore, who if he had time, would be able to ascertain the facts?--I think it would be an undertaking of great trouble.

7221. Mr. _Forster_.] Have you made any other seizures on the coast of Africa than the Augusta?--Several.

7222. Did you seize a vessel called the Sénégambie at St. Mary’s?--Yes, I seized a vessel called the Sénégambie in the river Gambia.

7223. On what ground was that seizure made?--On account of being equipped for the slave trade.

7224. Were you aware at the time you seized her that she had been chartered by the governor of Senegal for the voyage in which she was engaged?--I do not know whether I knew that at the time of making the seizure, or whether it was immediately afterwards, but the impression upon my mind is, that the owner told me in the custom-house that he was going to Bissao for a cargo of negroes.

7225. Did he not show you his papers and engagements, or rather did you examine them yourself?--The papers of the vessel when I seized her were in the custom-house. The vessel had been in the port of St. Mary’s two or three days.

7226. Did you not examine the papers?--I went to the custom-house for the purpose of examining the papers, and there I met Mr. Marbeau, the owner of the vessel, who told me the vessel was going to Bissao for a cargo of negroes.

7227. Did he not inform you that the negroes were for the service of the French government?--Afterwards I received copies of an agreement entered into between Mr. Marbeau and the governor of Senegal, transmitted to me by the governor of St. Mary’s.

7228. When did you receive them?--While I was at St. Mary’s.

7229. Before or after you had seized the vessel?--I think two or three days after I had seized the vessel; but those papers are printed in the correspondence, and they give much better information upon the subject. I have nothing to guide me but my recollection.

7230. Were there any mechanics or persons on board of her from the shore, at the time you seized her?--Yes; there were some mechanics on board of her belonging to St. Mary’s, who were employed in caulking and fitting the vessel for her intended voyage. There were also on board of her three small children, who I thought were under most suspicious circumstances, belonging to St. Mary’s.

7231. Did you think the carpenters and caulkers, who were engaged on board the vessel from shore, were there under suspicious circumstances?--No, they were employed on board the vessel, fitting the vessel for her intended voyage to Bissao for a cargo of slaves. The Sénégambie was partly equipped for the slave trade; she was lying in a British port, equipping for a cargo of slaves, where she had been for two or three days; the equipments were quite sufficient to condemn her, and she was condemned at Sierra Leone. She was absolutely lying in a British port equipping; she was to get provisions, and she had carpenters and men at work upon her belonging to the colony.

7232. Sir _T. D. Acland_.] Was she preparing false decks?--The slave-deck was partly laid, not wholly laid; she was being generally equipped for the voyage she was going on.

7233. _Chairman._] Were the carpenters laying the slave-deck?--I cannot say exactly what the carpenters were doing; I did not see them laying the slave-deck; but she was fitting out for her intended voyage to Bissao. There was a slave-deck partly laid, and part of it to be laid, and I believe they would have finished it.

7234. Were the planks ready for completing the slave-deck lying there?--I think they were.

7235. Sir _R. H. Inglis_.] But you are certain that part of her slave-deck was laid?--Yes.

7236. Sir _T. D. Acland_.] Did you seize her upon the ground of her partial equipment?--Her equipment was the ground upon which I seized her.

7237. _Chairman._] And it was the ground of her subsequent condemnation?--It was; the equipment was perfectly proved.

7238. Mr. _Forster_.] Do you wish the Committee to understand that that vessel was chartered by the governor of Senegal for a voyage to Bissao, and that she was not fitted out for that voyage at Senegal?--That I cannot say; I found her partly equipped, and lying in a British port, equipping for her intended voyage. She was so far equipped for the slave trade that there were ample grounds for my seizing her; and she was there caulking, fitting, and preparing for sea. She was to receive provisions for her intended voyage from the colony of St. Mary’s; at least, so I was informed by the supercargo.

7239. How do you account for the vessel coming from the neighbouring French settlement of Senegal to fit out for the purpose of receiving those negroes at the Gambia?--It is a most extraordinary thing, in my mind, that a vessel should sail from a French port, only distant 50 or 60 miles, and come to an English port, and there remain for two or three days, with people at work upon her, caulking and repairing her, and fitting her for sea.

7240. Mr. _Aldam_.] Had she had bad weather?--No, nothing at all of the sort; by the vessel’s papers she was not out of Goree more than one day before she arrived at the Gambia; I think less than one day.

7241. Mr. _Forster_.] Do you wish the Committee to understand that the vessel did not arrive at the Gambia with all her fittings for the voyage?--I have before stated that the vessel was lying in the Gambia, caulking and equipping for her intended voyage. It is impossible for me to state whether she brought her slave-deck with her to the Gambia, or whether she procured her slave-deck at the Gambia; but if she came to the Gambia with all those equipments on board, I would ask what can be thought of our custom-house officers at the Gambia?

7242. Do you think the custom-house officers at the Gambia would very readily conceive themselves entitled to seize a French vessel, chartered by the governor of Senegal?--The vessel being chartered by the governor of Senegal could have nothing to do with the laws that prevail in a British port. The French governor of Senegal cannot be regarded in an English port; our own laws are what are to govern our officers. The custom-house officers’ duty was to seize a vessel that was acting contrary to the laws of a British port.

7243. Therefore you think it was no excuse for the custom-house officers that she was employed in the service of the French government?--None whatever, because the custom-house officers, in all probability, would be perfectly ignorant of that circumstance, as I was myself. I seized her, and I was not aware she was employed by the French government till I had seized her one or two days.

7244. Sir _R. H. Inglis_.] The last question, and your last answer, have assumed that the vessel was employed in the service of the French government; is that what you wish the Committee to understand in respect of a vessel chartered by the governor of Senegal: might it not have been a speculation, on the part of the governor, as an individual, not involving any responsibility on the part of the government of France?--Undoubtedly it is very possible that it might have been a speculation on the part of the governor of Senegal without the knowledge of the French government; but in the case of a vessel equipped for the slave trade in a British port, whether she is employed by the governor of Senegal, or the governor of Bissao, or the governor of any nation, cannot in any way affect our laws.

7245. Mr. _Aldam_.] Was this vessel, which was fitted up for the purpose of procuring negroes for the French service, fitted up as an ordinary slave ship?--As an ordinary slave ship.

7246. There were the same means of restraint?--Precisely; iron bars across the hatchway, and the usual equipment of a slave vessel.

7247. So that it appeared that men were intended to be kept under restraint upon the voyage?--Certainly.

7248. Mr. _Forster_.] Were there any slave-irons on board?--I do not at this period remember very minutely her equipment, but there was quite sufficient ground to authorise my seizing the vessel.

7249. What were those carpenters doing on board?--They were at work upon the vessel.

7250. Can you describe the work they were doing?--I cannot do that: they were performing their work as carpenters.

7251. _Chairman._] Do you recollect whether they were caulking outside, or performing work inside the vessel?--I saw them at work, but I do not remember whether they were caulking the outside or the inside; but I see in my report that she had caulkers on board belonging to St. Mary’s, who were caulking and equipping her.

7252. Mr. _Forster_.] When you found that those carpenters belonged to St. Mary’s, did you send them on shore?--No, most assuredly not.

7253. Did you seize them with the vessel?--I sent them up with the vessel to Sierra Leone, and put them into the court with the vessel; and with respect to the three children that were on board, I considered, from their age, that they could be in no way connected with the equipping of the vessel, or otherwise concerned in the vessel beyond a general suspicion arising in my mind of what was intended to be done with those children, and I therefore sent them on shore to the governor of the Gambia, that he might make such inquiry respecting those children as he might judge proper.

7254. Did you consider that those carpenters, working for hire on board a vessel in the harbour, were justly chargeable with a participation in the slave trade?--They were found on board the vessel, and I considered it was necessary that I should send them with the vessel before the Vice-Admiralty Court.

7255. Did you consider them as assisting in the equipment of the vessel?--They were assisting in the equipment of the vessel, and it was with that view I sent them up; and, moreover, their evidence, if the court had required it, would have been necessary to show that the vessel was absolutely equipping in a British port; but perhaps the vessel would have been condemned without it.

7256. What was the result of the trial?--The vessel was condemned.

7257. Mr. _Forster_.] If the vessel was so fully equipped for the purposes of the slave trade, as you stated, how could the evidence of those carpenters be necessary at Sierra Leone?--I have stated that the vessel was partly equipped, and was completing her equipment in the port of St. Mary’s; those carpenters being on board, I considered that it was necessary that I should send them to Sierra Leone for the court to decide in what way they were punishable.

7258. Were not representations made to you from the shore that those people were carpenters belonging to the settlement, hired by the master of the vessel, and in no way answerable for his proceedings, or for the destination of the vessel?--No official representation was made to me; perhaps some merchant, or some person connected with some mercantile houses on shore might have told me so, but I certainly paid no attention to it, nor did I consider myself bound to pay attention to any thing of the sort. Had an official representation been made to me from the governor, of course it would require my greatest attention; but if an officer in the execution of his duty is to be guided by every person that he may meet in the settlement telling him this, that, or the other, there would be no possibility of his ever performing his duty.

7259. But at all events you knew that they were native workmen, belonging to the British settlement at the Gambia?--Yes; I knew that from their own story. I sent them up with the vessel, and put them into court with the vessel, and moreover acquainted the lieutenant-governor of the Gambia officially that I intended doing so.

7260. Were they put in prison upon their arrival at Sierra Leone?--I was not at Sierra Leone when the vessel arrived. To the best of my knowledge they were confined about a month.

7261. _Chairman._] Were they condemned?--I do not know.

7262. Mr. _Aldam_.] Were they confined preparatory to trial, or after sentence?--I forget, for I was not at Sierra Leone at the time; but I believe it was the Vice-Admiralty Court that confined them.

7263. Mr. _Forster_.] Do you know whether the carpenters were tried or not?--I do not know; I was not at Sierra Leone during the trial of the vessel, but I believe I arrived at Sierra Leone the very day that the vessel was condemned in the Vice-Admiralty Court.

7264. Did you make no inquiry as to the fate of those carpenters?--No, I did not, because I left Sierra Leone, I think, the day after the vessel was condemned, for Portendique, and I had no time to make inquiry on either of the two days that I was at Sierra Leone. I knew that the vessel was before the Vice-Admiralty Court who would decide upon the merits of the case.

7265. Was there a French gentleman also on board the vessel when you seized her?--There was a French person on board, whom I believed to be the supercargo, and, I rather think, was the brother of Mr. Marbeau.

7266. Did you find that he was the supercargo of the vessel?--He told me that he was the supercargo; and I believe that he was the brother of Mr. Marbeau, the owner.

7267. Was he not a passenger from Senegal to the Gambia?--It is impossible for me to say what he was.

7268. Had he been on shore at the Gambia previously to your seizing the vessel?--It is impossible for me to say.

7269. Did you carry a French gentleman from the Gambia to Sierra Leone, without making inquiry into his character and pursuits, and his connexion with that vessel?--All persons who were found on board the vessel, as I have before stated, with the exception of three black children, I sent to Sierra Leone, because I could not tell, of course, what he was doing in the vessel; he might be a French gentleman, or he might be there for the purpose of purchasing slaves; or he might be, for what I could tell, the very person who had got on board the three children, who, I have before stated, I thought were placed in a very suspicious position. My duty was to send everybody found in the vessel I had captured, on the suspicion of slave dealing, before the court appointed to adjudicate upon such cases.

7270. How did you consider him to be connected with those three children?--What I stated was, that he might be; I have not said that he was; I stated that I knew nothing about him, but finding him in the slave vessel, I sent him with the slave vessel before the court.

7271. You sent the three children on shore?--Yes; everybody else I sent before the court; and if any person in the world had been on board the vessel I should have sent him in the same way; if an English merchant had been on board, that merchant would have gone with the vessel likewise before the court; the court is to decide upon the legality or illegality of the conduct of persons found under such circumstances.

7272. _Chairman._] You conceive that that vessel, by her equipment was clearly seizable, as engaged in the slave trade?--Yes, or else I should not have seized her; I took upon myself a great responsibility in seizing her.

7273. And under those circumstances you felt yourself called upon to send every person found on board the vessel for adjudication before the proper court?--Yes; if I had not done so, I should have conceived that I laid myself open to the charge of not doing my duty.

7274. Sir _T. D. Acland_.] When you find a vessel reasonably suspected of being engaged in the slave trade, you think those who are found on board are liable to the same suspicion?--In the case of a vessel seized amenable to the British law.

7275. Sir _R. H. Inglis_.] Did you not find on board the vessel a contract between Marbeau and Pellett on the one hand, and the French governor on the other, to deliver a certain number of “passengers” at Goree?--This contract for “Blacks” was forwarded to me by the lieutenant-governor of the Gambia, one or two days after I had made the seizure, which contract I sent to the Vice-Admiralty court, with the vessel; every paper connected with the vessel, as well as the contract, was laid before the court.

7276. Mr. _Forster_.] Were you aware that she was engaged by the French government before you sent her from the Gambia?--I had seen this contract, which was entered into by the French governor of Senegal, but not the French government.

7277. Was the French gentleman, M. Pellett, put in prison also upon his arrival at Sierra Leone?--I have stated that I know not what was done by the court at Sierra Leone. Not being in Sierra Leone at the time the vessel was at Sierra Leone, I cannot say; but, to the best of my belief, the whole of them were put in prison.

7278. Sir _T. D. Acland_.] Have you known instances of persons in authority under other governments being engaged in slave dealing?--The charge has been frequently repeated very strongly of the governor of Bissao being engaged very frequently in slave dealing, and I verily believe it myself, because I have frequently detected vessels with papers given by the governor of Bissao, which vessels were equipped in every way for being engaged in the slave trade; and I have also some recollection of some papers being found from the governor of Bissao, detailing how some slaves that he had sent from Bissao were to be disposed of.

7279. That slave dealing being contrary to the law of his own country?--That slave dealing being contrary to the treaty between England and Portugal.

7280. Therefore the mere fact of finding the name of a governor upon the papers would not be a complete warrant for the lawfulness of the traffic in which the vessel was engaged?--I should pay great respect to the name of the French governor, but I should be very cautious how I regarded the name of the governor of Bissao, because I have seen so many instances of papers in which his name has been used to cover slaving transactions.

7281. Mr. _Forster_.] Was the captain of the Sénégambie a black or a white man?--I think a black man was represented to me as the captain.

7282. Mr. _Aldam_.] You spoke of the desirableness of having forts upon the African coast, upon the territory of the native chiefs. What establishment would it be necessary to have in any such fort?--I should think if the forts were small and well built, a very few men would be sufficient; I should fancy the best form of fort to be erected would be a Martello tower, that they might have one gun upon a pivot, so that for the defence of the fort it would require very few men.

7283. How many whites?--I should say half white and half black; I should say a dozen men altogether.

7284.--Would not one or two white officers be sufficient, the rest of the men being black?--That would do if you could insure white officers living, but the danger is of one dying, and in that case to whom would the charge of the fort devolve. It would be necessary to have a sufficient number of white people, that you might always insure one person to be in command.

7285. Are there no sub-officers blacks, whom you might entrust with a command of that kind, subject to the visits of the captains of men-of-war upon the station?--I think not at present; I think Africa would require to be much further advanced in civilization before it would be prudent to trust a fort entirely to black men.