Part 16
5503. How could Messrs. Zulueta consider that illegal which was publicly allowed to be done by the custom-house authorities in this country?--The criminality depends upon the guilty knowledge, as to which the custom-house cannot decide.
5504. Then it is upon those grounds that you designate Messrs. Zulueta & Co. as connected with the slave trade?--Upon the grounds that I have stated altogether.
5505. _Chairman._] Do you consider a merchant trading with King Peppel, a notorious slave trader in the Bonny, and receiving the produce of the country in exchange, to be acting against the purport of the Act of Parliament?--No, certainly not; because there there is a legitimate trade carried on alongside of the slave trade.
5506. Then you do not look merely at the person dealt with, but at the object for which the traffic is carried on?--Just so: I would designate as improper any trade carried on by a person who knew that the goods he sold would be employed in the slave trade.
5507. Mr. _Forster_.] If you consider it lawful for a British merchant to sell goods to so notorious a slave dealer as King Peppel, on what ground do you consider it illegal for Messrs. Zulueta & Company to ship a cargo of goods to Pedro Blanco or to Gallinas?--In the one case the trader receives his return in produce, and in the other case he sells goods which he knows will be employed in the slave trade, and for which he receives a return in money.
5508. How do you know that he is paid in money?--I do not know that Zulueta ever shipped goods to Pedro Blanco.
5509. Would you consider it legal if he did?--I think I have answered that question before, that the illegality depends upon the guilty knowledge of the party concerned, and that is a question for a jury to decide, if he is put upon his trial.
5510. Then that depends upon your construction of the Act of the 5th of George the Fourth?--Yes; no one can read the Act without understanding its purport.
5511. And you think the same principle applies in the case of slave vessels?--Yes.
5512. Mr. _Wortley_.] You stated just now that you were not aware that Messrs. Zulueta ever shipped any goods to Pedro Blanco; did you not previously state that that was one of your reasons for believing Messrs. Zulueta to be connected with the slave trade?--No; the ground I stated was the bills which Pedro Blanco drew upon them, which bills were current all along the coast, and I have seen some of them at Sierra Leone; they were drawn by Pedro Blanco on Zulueta; the transactions which gave rise to those bills I do not know.
5513. Mr. _Forster_.] Do you consider the shipment of goods referred to in the case of the Gollupchik an illegal shipment?--It was after my time; but I presume that it was illegal, because the vessel appears to have been condemned.
5514. _Chairman._] The legality or illegality will depend upon circumstances, which are not before you?--Yes; all that I know of it is from this report. There is a gentleman here to-day who seized the vessel, Captain Hill; he will explain all the circumstances.
5515. Mr. _Forster_.] Do you consider that any vessel laden in this country, and legally cleared at the custom-house for a slave factory on the coast of Africa, is seizable as being engaged in an illegal transaction?--She is seizable, but if the captor seizes her wrongfully, the person seized would have a claim for damages. She is certainly seizable by any man-of-war, but her condemnation would depend upon the fact whether or not the captor made out a case.
5516. _Chairman._] The mere fact of conveying goods to a slave factory would not be ground of condemnation, would it?--Certainly not.
5517. Mr. _Forster_.] Upon what ground can a vessel conveying a cargo of legal merchandise to the Gallinas be condemned?--On the ground of guilty knowledge, if it can be proved.
5518. Mr. _W. Patten_.] And that guilty knowledge would have to be left to the jury?--Yes.
5519. _Chairman._] You have been asked upon the case of the Almirante, in question 5238; can you in any way state what the transaction was, and are you able to give any explanation of it?--All I remember respecting that transaction is, that a merchant at Sierra Leone, of the name of Benjamin Campbell, on my arrival in Sierra Leone, in 1830, spoke to me about a sum of 500_l._, not 600_l._, that was due by him to Mr. Kenneth Macaulay, who was at that time dead--he died in 1829--for a vessel that Mr. Campbell had purchased from him. I did not know of that vessel having gone into the slave trade till it was mentioned just now.
5520. The sale was made by Mr. Kenneth Macauley to Mr. Campbell?--Yes.
5521. Mr. _Forster_.] Was not Mr. Campbell an agent of the house of Macaulay & Babington?--No, not at that time; he had been one of the clerks in the house, but many years previously; he had long ceased to have any connexion with the house, I suppose about five years. He was in business for himself at the time, and in rather a large way of business.
5522. Mr. _W. Patten_.] At Sierra Leone?--Yes.
5523. _Chairman._] You have spoken in your despatch, which you read at the last meeting of the Committee, of an extended scheme for promoting emigration from the coast of Africa to the West Indies; will you explain that more fully?--I would propose that the negroes should be sent to the West Indies after emancipation, in the same way as they have been of late years sent to the different colonies there from Havannah. Dr. Madden, who has made this Report, was the person appointed by Government, and specially sent out for the purpose of superintending the emigration of the emancipated negroes from Havannah to the different West India islands, and he would be able to give to the Committee all the details of the regulations which were adopted and sanctioned by the Government. I am not aware of the rules that were laid down for his guidance; but it appears in the slave trade papers of former years, during the time that the Duke of Wellington was Foreign Secretary, that he required a certain proportion to be observed between males and females, and also that negroes should be examined by a medical man, and no unhealthy ones sent; there were other regulations also by which he was bound; all the negroes that he could get he sent to Trinidad in the first instance, and I believe he sent some afterwards to Honduras and other places.
5524. Should you propose that they should remain a certain time in the colony before they were removed to the West Indies?--No, certainly not; I would have the removal take place immediately after emancipation. There is an emigration agent established at Sierra Leone, so that the whole machinery is ready at hand at once.
5525. How would you propose that the expense of transport across the Atlantic should be defrayed?--There would be no difficulty whatever about the expense, because the colonies to which they are sent would gladly pay any expenses of removal. The difficulty that the Government would experience would be, in distributing the negroes among the different colonies; but any West India colony would gladly pay the expense of removal of any number to their own shores.
5526. What is usually the expense incurred on account of each liberated African under the existing system at Sierra Leone?--The commissariat issues notice of tenders; when recruits are sent across from Sierra Leone to the West Indies, which they are continually to supply the West India regiments, it is open to any persons who have vessels unemployed to tender for their removal; and if the Government undertook to remove the negroes, I suppose it would be done in the same way.
5527. What is the expense now incurred for the maintenance of a liberated African at Sierra Leone?--He is maintained for six months; the allowance has been varied from 1_d._ to 2_d._ a day; but I believe now it is 1½_d._
5528. Are you aware of the expense of transporting them across the Atlantic?--I am not aware what has been charged; but whatever the expense was, the colony receiving the negroes would be very happy to pay it.
5529. You conceive that it would be a material advantage to the liberated Africans to be placed in a West India colony, rather than maintained for six months by Government, and afterwards thrown upon their own resources in Sierra Leone?--It would be an advantage in every way; an advantage first to the British Government in saving the expense of their maintenance; it would next be an advantage to the negroes, who are removed to a West India colony; and it would be a very great advantage to the colony of Sierra Leone, because, though it may be well able to support its present population, yet I think that further importations at any rate, unless the colony is extended, should be stopped. The advancement of the people who are now located there, is also considerably retarded, by having fresh importations of savages thrown amongst them from time to time, as they are, when slave ships are condemned.
5530. Is it possible to have a society of the extent of Sierra Leone otherwise than materially disturbed in all its moral and social relations by 4,000 or 5,000 uncultivated negroes from various quarters being thrown upon them at certain periods?--I think it is greatly injured by it.
5531. Is there any amount of capital in Sierra Leone ready to take up and give adequate employment to that influx of population?--No, not immediate employment; the people would themselves find employment to a certain extent, and I will not say how many more could be introduced safely so as to find employment; but all who are there can find employment, and can provide themselves with all the necessaries and conveniences of life if they choose.
5532. Are there the means, except in trade, of providing for more than the mere necessaries of life?--Agriculture is open to them to follow, if they have sufficient inducement.
5533. Is there sufficient opportunity afforded, from the state of agriculture in the colony, for raising more than is necessary for the sustenance and common maintenance of the labourer?--No, not at present; agriculture is not followed at all there for export; there are a few articles that are not worth mentioning that are raised, but there is no such system of agriculture for export followed that they could embark in agriculture at once.
5534. Then you conceive that both the social and moral condition of the negroes there would be improved, as they are now constituted, if they were placed in the West Indies instead of in Sierra Leone?--I think so; both for those who are left at Sierra Leone, and for those who are removed, it would be better.
5535. Do you think that it would be desirable to give the negro the option whether he would go to the West Indies or not?--Certainly not; it is never done now, and the Act of Parliament does not even contemplate such an option being given; the negro is taken to Sierra Leone, and located there, without his opinion or wishes being consulted, and in the same way he might be transported to the West Indies.
5536. Mr. _W. Patten_.] Is it obligatory in some of the treaties to take them to Sierra Leone?--The new Spanish treaty requires that they shall be established in a territory of the country to which the cruizer that has made the capture belongs.
5537. _Chairman._] But must not the adjudication be on the coast of Africa?--Not necessarily; Spanish vessels may be condemned at Havannah; and in some cases when Portuguese vessels have been captured in the West Indies, the slaves have been sent to Jamaica, and various other islands in the West Indies; and when the vessel is sent over to Sierra Leone, she comes over to us without the slaves; the slaves having been landed in the first instance, so as to save them a second voyage across the Atlantic; but with regard to vessels seized in the West Indies, which are liable to condemnation under the Spanish treaty, the Havannah court would condemn them, and the slaves would then be sent as Dr. Madden has sent them, to one of our West India colonies.
5538. Do you conceive that foreign powers would entertain, or be justified in entertaining, any objection to such a distribution?--No, they would not entertain it, and I do not think that they would be justified in entertaining it; on the contrary, it was the case in former days that the vessels that were condemned by the court at Havannah had their slaves located in the island of Cuba; but the planters cried out against it very loudly; and it was at their suggestion and their request that we sent away the negroes to our own West India colonies.
5539. By the treaties it is arranged that the captured negroes should be planted within the colonies of the capturing party?--It is stipulated in the seventh Article of the Portuguese treaty and the old Spanish treaty: “As to the slaves, they shall receive from the mixed commission a certificate of emancipation, and shall be delivered over to the government on whose territory the commission which shall have so judged them shall be established to be employed as servants or free labourers.” The Act never contemplates any option whatever being exercised by the persons seized, because it allows of their being drafted into the army or navy, without any reference to their own will.
5540. Would the possible objection of foreign nations be stronger if we engaged in a system of colonial emigration from the coast of Africa, from other points than Sierra Leone?--I mentioned yesterday that we could not go beyond the limits of British jurisdiction in procuring emigrants, without appearing to give a sanction to those practices for which we have been complaining against other nations of late years, both the French and Dutch.
5541. In placing the emancipated slaves in islands where they would be engaged in cultivating sugar, you would be in fact compelling the slave trader to put down the slave trade itself in a great degree?--Yes; I think that a great advantage, causing our efforts for the suppression of the slave trade to operate in encouraging the cultivation of sugar in our own colonies.
5542. In as far as it went, it would cheapen the very produce, the dearness of which now constitutes the great inducement for carrying on the slave trade?--Yes; the best way of putting down the slave trade is our cultivating that produce in such a manner that it can compete with slave-grown produce; and every thing that we do in adding to the difficulty of carrying slaves across the Atlantic, adds to the price of labour and the price of sugar in the slave-growing colonies.
5543. Every thing that we do with a view to encourage the lawful produce, and to induce the negroes of Africa to get what they require in a lawful way, diminishes the temptation to carry on the slave trade, and co-operates with the cruizers in putting it down?--Certainly. There is a passage with respect to enlisting negroes who are condemned by the courts, without any reference to their own will; it occurs in the 22d clause of the Act of 5 Geo. 4, c. 112: “It shall be lawful for His Majesty, his heirs, and successors, and such officers, civil or military, as shall, by any general or special order of the King in Council, be from time to time appointed to receive, protect, and provide for such persons as shall be so condemned, either to enter and enlist the same, or any of them, into His Majesty’s land or sea service, as soldiers, seamen, or marines, or to bind the same or any of them, whether of full age or not, as apprentices, for any term not exceeding seven years, to such person or persons, in such place or places, and upon such terms and conditions, and subject to such regulations as to His Majesty shall seem meet, and as shall by any general or special Order of His Majesty in Council be in that behalf directed and appointed; and any indenture of apprenticeship duly made and executed by any person or persons to be for that purpose appointed by any such Order in Council, for any term not exceeding seven years, shall be of the same force and effect as if the party thereby bound as an apprentice had himself or herself when of full age, upon good consideration, duly executed the same.” It leaves no option whatever with the party bound.
5544. You think vessels could always be taken up to meet the arrival of emancipated negroes?--The chartering of vessels would, I think, offer no difficulty at Sierra Leone. There are, I believe, now, but there certainly would be, in case such a plan was adopted, agents from the different colonies which are anxious to obtain negroes, who would be always ready to secure vessels for their transport across the Atlantic.
5545. Would not this be of advantage in opening a communication from the West India islands with the coast of Africa, and encouraging the intercourse between the two countries, and the free interchange of products, to the advancement of the civilization of Sierra Leone, and through it, of Africa?--In almost all cases where vessels have gone across to the West Indies with recruits from Sierra Leone, the vessels have gone on from the West Indies to England, taking a cargo from the West Indies to England.
5546. Then it would only have the effect of increasing the advantageous resort of vessels to Sierra Leone generally?--That would be one effect.
5547. Would it not have an effect on Sierra Leone, by giving an advantageous freight to vessels frequenting it?--Yes, it would have that effect.
5548. If it were considered desirable, would there be any difficulty in giving to the negroes, after emancipation at Sierra Leone, the option of remaining in the country or of going over to the West Indies?--I think it would be undesirable to introduce a new practice where no option is now given, and where the persons are not qualified immediately after emancipation, to form any opinion whatever.
5549. Mr. _Forster_.] Do you think that it would be good policy to give retired allowances to all public officers who have served a certain number of years on the coast of Africa?--I think it would.
5550. The officers of the Mixed Commission Court, I believe, are the only officers who enjoy that advantage?--I think the colonial chaplain does, but by favour, not by right; there are no officers who serve under colonial governments who are entitled to pensions; it is a rule of the service, which is stated positively in their printed regulations.
5551. But considering the danger to health in that climate, you are of opinion that it would be for the benefit of the service, and also consistent with justice, that some allowance, in the shape of pension or otherwise, should be made to officers serving there?--I think so. There is one other point that I would beg to refer to, and that is rather personal. It was stated by a witness in evidence on the 24th of May, that there was a party in the colony of Sierra Leone who had great influence in the Colonial Office; that this party was an individual; that the suspicion of the witness, Colonel Findlay, did not apply to more than one individual, and that that individual was myself; and that he found, during the time that he was governor of the colony, that the contents of despatches sent from the Colonial-office to Sierra Leone were known in the colony by that party before they came to his hands, and that he was consequently, and owing to that, impeded in carrying on his government. Now I would only mention, with regard to this statement, that I never received one single line all the time I was in the colony, which was 11 years, from any person connected with the Colonial-office, either directly or indirectly, on any subject whatever; and that I never wrote one line to any person in the Colonial-office during that period, except one letter of introduction, which I gave to an officer of the 31st regiment, who wanted to travel in Africa; I gave to this gentleman a sort of certificate that he was a man of mild and conciliatory manners; that was the only letter that I wrote to the Colonial-office, and I never received one line upon any subject from any party in the Colonial-office, not even in reply to the letter of introduction just referred to.
5552. Mr. _Forster_.] You had no correspondence with the Colonial-office during your residence in Africa, directly or indirectly?--None whatever, or with any person connected with the Colonial-office.
5553. Mr. _W. Patten_.] Colonel Finlay, in his evidence, referred to a party existing in the colony; are you aware of two distinct parties existing in the colony?--I am aware of one party that existed in the colony during the time that he was there, and that is a long time ago, a party that opposed his government, because they thought he was a bad Governor. I was one of that party certainly, while I was a merchant. As soon as I became a government officer I abstained from any public demonstration of feeling or opinion, but as a merchant, and before I entered upon my public duties in the Mixed Commission Court, I certainly took the means that every man is allowed to take to show that I did not approve of his proceedings.
5554. But was that party a political party, or was the party connected solely with the circumstances of the colony itself?--It was merely with relation to the colony; they did not care at all about Whigs and Tories out there; they had their colonial politics to attend to.
5555. Mr. _G. Wood_.] Did the discontent originate in political or commercial views?--It originated in consequence of measures which were considered oppressive upon individuals; it was upon local matters altogether.
5556. Mr. _Forster_.] Do you consider that it originated in commercial questions?--Certainly not.
5557. Were you a government officer at the time that the transaction took place which led to Colonel Finlay’s recal?--I think I was; I think the imprisonment of Mr. M‘Cormack occurred in 1832; I entered upon my office in 1832; I think it was after I became a government officer. After I became a judge I took no public part in opposition to any government, however bad it might have been.
5558. You took no part in that transaction which led to Colonel Finlay’s recal?--I took no public part; I may have given advice to my friends.
5559. Did not a trial arise out of those transactions, in which you were a witness?--No; no trial at all occurred, and therefore I could not have been a witness in any.
5560. _Chairman._] Have you read the remarks of Colonel Doherty on the Report of Dr. Madden?--I have.
5560*. Do you concur in the views which he has taken of the points alluded to?--In almost every particular.
5561. Is there any material point upon which you differ from him?--I think only two: one, with respect to the Kroomen, whose residence in the colony Colonel Doherty thought was injurious, and interfered with the resident liberated Africans; I do not agree with him in that respect; I think that they should not be interdicted at all from coming to Sierra Leone, nor should their numbers be limited.
5562. You believe them to be advantageous to the colony?--Yes.
5563. And, by their example, to the liberated Africans themselves?--Yes, I think even to them, as setting an example of industry, which they would do well to imitate.
5564. Do you concur in opinion with Colonel Doherty as to the character of the Kroomen; he speaks of the Kroomen as men never to be trusted, never converted to Christianity, and likely, wherever they may be, to exhibit a bad example in that particular; do you concur in that?--I agree in opinion with Colonel Doherty, that they would not be converted to Christianity. I do not think them dishonest when they are well treated. I never heard of an instance of any liberated African being converted to the Pagan opinions of the Kroomen; I believe such a thing was never heard of.