Part 14
5429. Then you would prevent the actual purchaser at Sierra Leone from selling the vessel to Messrs. Zulueta & Co. in London?--No, I would not.
5430. Then where is the value of the restriction you would impose?--The value is this, and it is not of great value, that if that vessel, whilst sailing under the name of Zulueta & Co. is captured and condemned as being engaged in the slave trade, you will come upon the person who sold that vessel to Zulueta & Co. for the amount of the bond.
5431. You think it would be just to make the first purchaser of the vessel responsible for the subsequent employment of that vessel, after he had sold her to Messrs. Zulueta & Co.?--Yes, as long as it remained in the hands of Zulueta & Co.; and I would mention further, that an advantage which I did not perceive before would result from it, that the man who sells the vessel in the case supposed to Zulueta, would not be very happy under such a sale, unless he got a security from Zulueta for the amount of the bond, and in such a case, whenever doubtful characters came forward as purchasers, the amount of the bond would be an addition to the price paid for the vessel.
5432. When a prize vessel is brought into the public market in London, why should this vessel be subject to regulations different from any other vessel in the London market?--Because the vessel being purchased at Sierra Leone, at one of our sales, would be likely to be a vessel fitted for the slave trade, and for nothing else.
5433. But is it not well known that there are many vessels in the London market equally well adapted for that purpose as many of those vessels?--I think not.
5434. Sir _T. D. Acland_.] Do you not think that if a bond were given under penalty of forfeiture, if in the course of a certain time, say one, two, or three years, that vessel were detected as being engaged in the slave trade, the party giving the bond would take very good care to keep her out of that mischief?--Yes, I think he would.
5435. Would he not take very good care that the vessel should not get into hands through which that risk could be brought upon himself?--He would be interested in doing so.
5436. _Chairman._] Other parties would secure themselves upon each successive transfer by successive bonds to the amount of their own liability?--The amount of the bond might be more than the value of the vessel considerably.
5437. Mr. _Forster_.] Then the result of that would be that there must be a series of bonds running through all the subsequent sales of the vessel?--Yes.
5438. Mr. _W. Patten_.] You have stated that in your opinion the breaking up of all the vessels would be far preferable?--Yes, the breaking up of all the vessels would be one of the best things that could possibly be done.
5439. _Chairman._] What proportion of the vessels that have been taken within your knowledge have been so broken up?--It is only since the Spanish treaty came into operation in 1836 that they have been broken up at all; since that time more than two-thirds of the vessels condemned have been broken up.
5440. Sir _T. D. Acland_.] Would it be possible to fix the bond upon the vessel itself?--No; I do not think it would.
5441. _Chairman._] You have seen a good deal of the effects of British trade upon the coast of Africa, especially as connected with Sierra Leone?--I cannot say that I have seen very much, but I have seen something.
5442. You have seen that British manufactures are, to some extent at least, employed as instruments of barter for slaves?--Yes.
5443. Indirectly through Brazil and Cuba, and from England, goods are sold to persons who would use them in barter for slaves?--Yes.
5444. Therefore, to a certain extent, British trade gives facilities for the slave trade?--Yes.
5445. Do you conceive that it would be possible, with advantage to the cause of putting down the slave trade, to have any further restrictions upon British trade on the coast of Africa: do you believe that it would be advisable to prohibit absolutely dealing in lawful articles with slavers or with slave factories?--I consider it to be undesirable to impose any restrictions.
5446. Will you state your reasons?--I think that no restrictions whatever could be drawn up applying to any description of goods that might not materially interfere with the legitimate trade.
5447. And you believe that it would be a serious injury to the people of Africa, and to the cause of civilization in Africa, if lawful trade were interfered with and impeded?--I do; I would not have any restrictions whatever upon the commercial intercourse of our vessels, to which only of course our law would apply, with any port on the coast, whatever her character was with regard to slave trading.
5448. You conceive that although some additional facility to the slave trade may arise from the lawful traffic, on the balance much more good accrues?--I think so. I think there are positive advantages in gaining an entrance for our vessels to those ports where the slave trade is carried on: that information of the character of the people and of their mode of trade is obtained, and facilities offered to the squadron cruizing on the coast and visiting those rivers; and also that at any time, if, from the checks given to the slave trade by more stringent cruizing in that part, the natives should be desirous of turning their attention to lawful commerce, there are the means of doing it at once ready to their hands. It might happen anywhere that legitimate trade, from strict cruizing, would become a desirable one for the natives; but they would not have the means of carrying it on if British vessels were forbidden to enter those ports.
5449. Is it desirable that the natives should see a lawful trade offered to them by the parties and nations who are now connected with the unlawful traffic themselves?--I think it is.
5450. If you prohibited the access of English vessels and English trade to the suspected ports, should you be able under any existing treaties, or should you be likely to be able under any future treaties, to prohibit the access to those ports of foreign vessels engaged in the supply off lawful articles?--I do not think it could be done.
5451. Unless you could so prohibit the access of foreign vessels, you could not in any way prevent the supply of those articles which are requisite to be used in barter for slaves?--No.
5452. Then, on the whole, you would gain nothing in the way of interruption to the slave trade, and you would lose many advantages for the obstruction of the slave trade which you now possess by the free access of English vessels even to the suspected ports?--That is my opinion.
5453. Sir _T. D. Acland_.] May not the carrying on of legitimate commerce, even with slave-dealing natives, be used as a means of inducing them by negotiation to give up dealing in slaves?--It may be so, certainly.
5454. _Mr. Forster_.] How did this merchant at Sierra Leone come to be regarded with suspicion and mistrust who traded to the Gallinas, if, in your opinion, such trade is beneficial for the civilization of Africa, and the suppression of the slave trade?--I have not stated that exactly; I would not impose any restrictions by law on the entrance of any vessel, whether for lawful or unlawful purposes; but such freedom does not release the merchant who sells his goods, knowing that they will be employed for the slave trade, from the responsibility of doing so.
5455. You would prevent merchants and vessels frequenting such places as the Gallinas, if it was to be inferred that they could not go there and dispose of their goods without being subject to the charge of being aiders and abettors in the slave trade?--I think that it is very desirable that some regulations should be drawn up for the guidance of the men-of-war on the coast, with regard to vessels engaged in traffic; there appears to be a sort of impression now, that it is their duty to interfere with all vessels trading with slave-trading ports, and it is quite a misunderstanding on their part.
5456. Mr. _Aldam_.] If there is an establishment formed, where both the lawful and the unlawful traffic is carried on in goods, do you think it is desirable to prevent English vessels from trading to that establishment?--I think it is undesirable.
5457. _Chairman._] It is suggested in Dr. Madden’s Report, that there should be some further acts of treaty, with a view of developing the resources of the colony?--I quite agree with Dr. Madden in that. In the year 1836 I was before a Committee of the House of Commons, when my evidence went particularly to that point. I thought that the policy of the British Government in rejecting territory, when they had legally and properly acquired it, and confining themselves entirely to the peninsula of Sierra Leone, was very injurious.
5458. The peninsula of Sierra Leone does not afford adequate employment and resources?--I think the employment and resources are sufficient for the population at present, but the land is not so fertile as the land that we then possessed, and which the Government at home required the Government there to give up, and restore to the natives; also the destruction of our sovereignty and property in that country will not allow us to take cognizance of slave-dealing transactions occurring in that territory.
5459. Mr. _Forster_.] Do you think it desirable to extend the limits of the colony at Sierra Leone?--I do.
5460. Do you think that there would be any difficulty in effecting that extension?--None whatever.
5461. Do you think that it would impose upon the British Government any great expense or responsibility to carry that out?--I do not think it would.
5462. _Chairman._] Would it be desirable for the trade of the colony, if possible, to extend the limits of it, so as to give to a larger portion of the produce of the soil the advantage of British growth in the English markets?--I do not think advantage would be derived in that way; because no produce that is now brought down to Sierra Leone, and passes through Sierra Leone to England, is considered as foreign produce, either teak wood, palm-oil, rice, or any thing else.
5463. Does teak, for instance, take its character from the port of Sierra Leone?--Yes.
5464. Is it landed there?--Teak that is embarked in the river Sierra Leone is put on board the vessel in British waters.
5465. Where?--At Banee Island Roads.
5466. What distance from Freetown is that?--About fifteen miles.
5467. Is it floated down so far, and then put on board at that place?--Yes.
5468. Have you considered the question of emigration from the coast of Africa to the West Indies?--I have.
5469. Will you state generally what opinion you have formed on it?--I have formed a very favourable opinion of it. On the 15th of February 1841, at the desire of Lord John Russell, I expressed my views fully upon this subject, in a communication which I then made to the Colonial Office; I stated the classes from whom emigration might be expected, and though this was before any scheme of emigration was carried into effect, nothing has occurred since which has at all altered my opinion; and indeed just what I then expected has happened. It was supposed that there was a considerable desire on the part of the inhabitants to emigrate; such a desire I stated did not exist; that a few liberated Africans had been anxious to go to the country from which they had been taken as slaves, to join their friends, and that many Maroons had been anxious to go back to the West Indies, from which they had been taken, and where they had friends; but that beyond that, there was no general desire for emigration; that if such desire was requisite, it would be necessary to create it. That there was no difficulty at any time thrown in the way of persons anxious to leave the colony by the Governor and Council there; that on the contrary, just before I left, an application had been made by a party of liberated Africans to the Governor asking him to send them back to Badagry, on the coast, and the Governor and Council replied, that they might go if they pleased; but that the Government would not be at any expense in sending them. A few did go and returned, and since that time emigration has been going on to a considerable extent to Badagry, and at present there are a large number of liberated Africans there, who are finding their way across to the Niger; and in a letter I received a few days ago from a gentleman at Sierra Leone, he mentions that liberated Africans are still going to Badagry, and that it is likely to become an important place. There were a few Maroons, before emigration was encouraged by any agents from the West Indies, who purchased a vessel at Sierra Leone and went over to Jamaica, and their arrival was mentioned by Sir Charles Metcalfe, in one of the despatches which was received before my letter was written. I recommended that two persons should be selected from each of the principal tribes of liberated Africans, and sent over to the West Indies to report upon the prospects that were held out to emigrants by the colonies there, and that their wives and families should be supported during their absence, and also themselves paid a certain monthly allowance until their return; and I have no doubt that if that plan had been followed, a very large emigration from Sierra Leone would have taken place, and I regret much that it was not done.
5470. Are there at Sierra Leone chiefs who exercise a considerable influence over the liberated Africans?--Every tribe of liberated Africans has some chief man who represents its interests on all occasions, and who, in case of any difference with the Governor or other persons, stands forward to represent it.
5471. Do they generally fall into location according to the tribes from which they come?--No, they are mixed in the villages; the Governor pays no attention to that; he locates successive importations of negroes according to the wants of the place, and the land which is to be given away, without reference to nation.
5472. But subsequently those belonging to the same tribe co-operate?--They keep very much to their own nation.